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#41 Teejay

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Posted 09 August 2011 - 05:43 PM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1312856095' post='73911']
Do you have Biblical evidence that this applies to Jesus?
In all honesty I didn't see how this could apply to Jesus. Acts 2:24; 3:15 Until I read John 2:19 and 10:18. This discussion is very beneficial to me.
Thanks for bringing that up. I was supposed to research this for my next study.
[/quote]

ME, this is simply a cosmological argument for the existence of a Being that is not contingent for its existence on anything else, i.e. self-existing. If such a Being did not exist, then nothing physical or spiritual could possibly exist. In the debate between Bertrand Russell and the Catholic jesuit (his name escapes me?), atheist genius Russell had no real answer for it. For anything to exist, there has to be a being who has always existed--an uncaused Cause. This same argument defeats Mormonism because every Mormon god comes from another god inside creation. This is why they believe that matter is eternal because their gods are not eternal (Past). But sooner or later they have to find a first man who became a god or a first god who became a man. And none of their gods can claim eternity past, only eternity future. But our God did not come to BE. He always WAS. Make sense?

TeeJay

#42 MamaElephant

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Posted 09 August 2011 - 07:47 PM

ME, this is simply a cosmological argument for the existence of a Being that is not contingent for its existence on anything else, i.e. self-existing. If such a Being did not exist, then nothing physical or spiritual could possibly exist. In the debate between Bertrand Russell and the Catholic jesuit (his name escapes me?), atheist genius Russell had no real answer for it. For anything to exist, there has to be a being who has always existed--an uncaused Cause. This same argument defeats Mormonism because every Mormon god comes from another god inside creation. This is why they believe that matter is eternal because their gods are not eternal (Past). But sooner or later they have to find a first man who became a god or a first god who became a man. And none of their gods can claim eternity past, only eternity future. But our God did not come to BE. He always WAS. Make sense?

TeeJay

Oh, I was lost because I had no idea that Mormons or anyone else who claimed to be Christians believed that. I have always believed in an eternal self-existing God.

#43 ikester7579

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Posted 09 August 2011 - 09:43 PM

Universalism is wrong period.
Universalism is what the Mormons believe as well. Their logic they use to convince people is: Would you throw your children into Hell? Neither will God. Universalism also require all verses to be remove that talk about hell or eternal damnation. Satan does not exist, and the angels never fell from glory. Then you have to remove everything Satan and his angels did. Which would include the whole book of Job. After all is said and done to make the Bible conform to universalism, you would have to remove 50% or more of it.

And because universalism says everyone goes to heaven regardless. Christ died for nothing. His shed blood means nothing. Heaven is as bad as Hell because everyone will be there. And I could go one and one. Basically if I listed all the things universalism destroys in God's word to the emf degree, there would be nothing left.

So basically people who choose universalism pick and choose what verses they will use to support that believe while ignoring all the rest. And it does not matter how many verses anyone points out to them that makes it wrong, their doctrine is their god therefore it supersedes all.

This also branches off into what I call the love doctrines. Where all a denomination can do is teach and preach how much God loves you and not the other half. Any belief that tells you only half of the truth is also deceiving you.

Example: If I tell you that you can have a million dollars and all you have to do is go into a certain cave to get it. And you go to find a bear in there with her cubs. As she's killing you, you yell out: Why did you not tell me about that bear? I say: Did I lie? I may not have lied but withholding the other part of the truth was a deception, one that got you killed.

Though they will try and justify what they did by using that lie question, a deception is just as bad as a lie.

#44 ChrisCarlascio

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Posted 10 August 2011 - 03:15 PM

I know that many are hitting you with a lot of questions.

Thanks for understanding.

But I just want you to either accept Jesus as God or deny Him as God. Again. Is Jesus God? a) Yes. B) No.

Based on the definition of God that you provided, about God being a uncreated being, I don't believe Jesus is God. His father is the uncreated creator of all. As I've already posted, I believe the scripture shows that Christ was created. Christ is God in the sense that he is the image and expression of the invisible God, his father. He's God in the sense that the entire complement of God the father is dwelling bodily within him, but these two are not, identificationally speaking, the same being.

Universalism also require all verses to be remove that talk about hell or eternal damnation.

Can you please list the scriptures you think teach eternal seperation from God and I will try to explain why I don't believe they teach that. I don't deny that the scripture talks about fire and judgement, but my question would be, are these talking about eternal seperation from God?

Satan does not exist, and the angels never fell from glory. Then you have to remove everything Satan and his angels did. Which would include the whole book of Job. After all is said and done to make the Bible conform to universalism, you would have to remove 50% or more of it.

Satan and his messengers do exist and you don't have to remove 50% of the Bible to believe God is the savior of all mankind.

Christ died for nothing. His shed blood means nothing.

Christ died to save us from our sins, death, and the enmity between us and God. The wages of sin is death.

Heaven is as bad as Hell because everyone will be there.

How is the fact that everyone will be there make it as bad as eternal seperation from God?

So basically people who choose universalism pick and choose what verses they will use to support that believe while ignoring all the rest.

"Faithful is the saying and worthy of all welcome (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers. These things be charging and teaching." (1 Timothy 4:9-11)

"... our Saviour, God, Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:4)

"Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all."(1 Corinthians 15:28)

"As it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life’ justifying. For even as, through the disobedience of the one man the many [descendants] were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the [same] many shall be constituted righteous." (Romans 5:18,19)

"As in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:22,26-28)

"God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all." (Romans 11:32)

"For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God." (Romans 8:20,21)

What verses am I ignoring? Are you ignoring these verses?

#45 Teejay

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Posted 10 August 2011 - 05:14 PM

[quote] name='ChrisCarlascio' timestamp='1313014534' post='73958']
Thanks for understanding.


Based on the definition of God that you provided, about God being a uncreated being, I don't believe Jesus is God. His father is the uncreated creator of all. As I've already posted, I believe the scripture shows that Christ was created. Christ is God in the sense that he is the image and expression of the invisible God, his father. He's God in the sense that the entire complement of God the father is dwelling bodily within him, but these two are not, identificationally speaking, the same being.


Can you please list the scriptures you think teach eternal seperation from God and I will try to explain why I don't believe they teach that. I don't deny that the scripture talks about fire and judgement, but my question would be, are these talking about eternal seperation from God?


Satan and his messengers do exist and you don't have to remove 50% of the Bible to believe God is the savior of all mankind.


Christ died to save us from our sins, death, and the enmity between us and God. The wages of sin is death.


How is the fact that everyone will be there make it as bad as eternal seperation from God?


"Faithful is the saying and worthy of all welcome (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers. These things be charging and teaching." (1 Timothy 4:9-11)

"... our Saviour, God, Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:4)

"Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all."(1 Corinthians 15:28)

"As it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life’ justifying. For even as, through the disobedience of the one man the many [descendants] were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the [same] many shall be constituted righteous." (Romans 5:18,19)

"As in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:22,26-28)

"God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all." (Romans 11:32)

"For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God." (Romans 8:20,21)

What verses am I ignoring? Are you ignoring these verses?
[/quote]

Chris,

"Jesus is not God. Okay! If he is not God, you should not worship Him (First Commandment). Right?

TeeJay

#46 MamaElephant

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Posted 10 August 2011 - 08:04 PM

Chris,

"Jesus is not God. Okay! If he is not God, you should not worship Him (First Commandment). Right?

TeeJay

Oh I just want to give you a great big hug! I called a missionary today, crying, because I was afraid I was never going to "get" the Trinity doctrine. You have made it simple.

#47 ChrisCarlascio

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 04:40 AM

"Jesus is not God." Okay! If he is not God, you should not worship Him (First Commandment). Right?

I'm going to try and explain my case and answer your question. Please don't skim through my post and please read all that I write before scrolling to the bottom.

Before I do, could you please let me know what version of the Bible you are using so I can try and use yours to explain my case.

#48 Fred Williams

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 07:32 AM

I'm going to try and explain my case and answer your question. Please don't skim through my post and please read all that I write before scrolling to the bottom.

Before I do, could you please let me know what version of the Bible you are using so I can try and use yours to explain my case.


MOD HAT ON: Chris, remember that you asked to go a verse at a time? I would like you to take your own advice on this, as you have been engaging in a form of elephant hurling.

MOD HAT OFF: I am encouraged you are willing to use TeeJay''s Bible version, you never satisfactorily answered my prior argument that your Concordant version is, without mincing words, awful - it flies in the face of scholars who are fluent in Hebrew & Greek, many who had little ax to grind. Why is your version correct, and ever single of the major revisions listed at blueletterbible.org wrong? Can't you see it is because of an attempt to mend a theology into the Bible, instead of the other way around?

Fred

#49 Teejay

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 01:38 PM

[quote] name='ChrisCarlascio' timestamp='1313062801' post='73971']
I'm going to try and explain my case and answer your question. Please don't skim through my post and please read all that I write before scrolling to the bottom.

Before I do, could you please let me know what version of the Bible you are using so I can try and use yours to explain my case.
[/quote]

Chris,

For many posts now, I have been trying to get you to just say plainly that "Jesus Christ is not God." I finally did get you to say it, but it was not without equivocation, i.e., "according to your description." Not to be too disrespectful, but I think it would be easier to get an answer out of Bill: "It all depends what the definition of IS IS." But I guess that I will have to make due with what you gave me.

The King James or the New King James is fine with me. I use the New King James because when I witnes to young public schoolers, some of them have a time reading the flowery language in the King James.

If Jesus is a created being, then He is not God. In the Bible, whenever a prophet fell down in front of a created being (angel for example), the angel would scold him and say, "Get up! Don't worship me." But you still deem your jesus (a created being) worthy of worship. Why? And may I point out that the real Jesus of Scripture was not the least embarrassed when people worshipped Him.

TeeJay

#50 ikester7579

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 09:51 PM

Can you please list the scriptures you think teach eternal seperation from God and I will try to explain why I don't believe they teach that. I don't deny that the scripture talks about fire and judgement, but my question would be, are these talking about eternal seperation from God?


mk 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

What is eternal damnation? Does not eternal mean forever, or do you have another definition?

Question: Since you believe everyone will go to heaven, will Satan and his angels be there as well? That is everyone, and if not why not?

Satan and his messengers do exist and you don't have to remove 50% of the Bible to believe God is the savior of all mankind.Christ died to save us from our sins, death, and the enmity between us and God. The wages of sin is death.


Nice try in reversing the meaning of what was said to make it look like I was in error. These tactics would not be needed if you had actual truth.

How is the fact that everyone will be there make it as bad as eternal seperation from God?


Because you believe heaven should be full of murderers, pedophiles, etc... That never asked for forgiveness but by some right you say they should be there? Your doctrine makes it to where no one has to do anything for the kingdom to bring in the harvest of souls. What is the point of salvation if we all go to heaven anyway? And if you dodge that question I will ask it again.

"Faithful is the saying and worthy of all welcome (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers. These things be charging and teaching." (1 Timothy 4:9-11)


(KJV)9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
11 These things command and teach.

I guess I might believe in universalism as well if i read from a translation that is made to conform to it.

"... our Saviour, God, Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:4)


(KJV)3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

"Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all."(1 Corinthians 15:28)


(KJV)28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

"As it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life’ justifying. For even as, through the disobedience of the one man the many [descendants] were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the [same] many shall be constituted righteous." (Romans 5:18,19)


(KJV) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

"As in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:22,26-28)


I don't skip verses and take things out of context as you have shown here. It's all in context for full meaning.

(KJV) 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

"God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all." (Romans 11:32)


Taking things out of context again:
(KJV) 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

And your translation is no where near KJV. I guess when a translation is trying to conform the word to a certain belief it will have to change whole meanings in the verses.

"For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God." (Romans 8:20,21)


(KJV) 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Creature and creation are not the same thing. Whatever translation you are using, it's made to conform to universalism. If you cannot see that, not much I can do about it to help you.

But I will tell you this. Universalism is not believed or promoted by this ministry. Which means you are on shaky ground in your intent to evangelize people to believe as you do.

#51 MamaElephant

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 10:18 PM

mk 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

What is eternal damnation? Does not eternal mean forever, or do you have another definition?

He actually does have another definition. That scripture uses the word eonian.

Because you believe heaven should be full of murderers, pedophiles, etc... That never asked for forgiveness but by some right you say they should be there?

Actually, if I understand this belief correctly (Charles Russel, founder of the Watch Tower magazine held this belief which is why it peaked my interest), when Christ returns there will be people who are not happy about it. This is because they are judged adversely. These will be punished for an indeterminate amount of time in order to get them to repent.

#52 MamaElephant

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 10:21 PM

If Jesus is a created being, then He is not God. In the Bible, whenever a prophet fell down in front of a created being (angel for example), the angel would scold him and say, "Get up! Don't worship me." But you still deem your jesus (a created being) worthy of worship. Why? And may I point out that the real Jesus of Scripture was not the least embarrassed when people worshipped Him.

It would help this baby Christian if you could provide examples of this. I am making a notebook to respond to JWs when they use their Reasoning from the Scriptures book with me.

#53 MamaElephant

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 11:16 PM

"[Jesus Christ] Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, ..." (Colossians 1:15)

Okay, lets talk about this scripture then. Chris, does this mean that Christ is literally the firstborn of every creature? What does firstborn mean? Where should we get the definition of firstborn in order to understand the meaning of this scripture?

#54 Teejay

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 09:17 AM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1313126483' post='74010']
It would help this baby Christian if you could provide examples of this. I am making a notebook to respond to JWs when they use their Reasoning from the Scriptures book with me.
[/quote]

Me. I will try from now on. There is a word "christphany" which is used to describe a visitation by Jesus to a prophet for example. Sometimes the being is referred to by "an angelof the Lord," but still accepts worship but theologians reason that the visitor is a manifistation of Jesus. So theologians use this criteria (bowing down and worshipping) to determine if the visitor is God or an angel.

For example: "And it came to pass,when Joshua was by Jerico, that he lifted his eyes and looked and behold, a Man [capitalized in NKJ) stood opposite him with His sword drawn in His hand. And Joshua went to Him and said to Him, 'Are you for us or for our adversaries?' So He said, 'No, but as Commander of the army of the Lord I have come.' And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and WORSHIPPED, and said to Him, 'What does my Lord say to His servant?'" (Joshua 5:13-14). Notice that this visitor accepted Joshua's worship.

Now let's look at what happens when it's not God: "And I [John] fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, 'See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus Worship of God! For the testamony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy'" (Rev. 19:10).

There are others. Just google visitations by God in the Old Testament.

TeeJay

#55 MamaElephant

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 09:31 AM

There are others. Just google visitations by God in the Old Testament.

Thanks for the suggestion. Will do.

#56 MamaElephant

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 02:28 PM

Okay, lets talk about this scripture then. Chris, does this mean that Christ is literally the firstborn of every creature? What does firstborn mean? Where should we get the definition of firstborn in order to understand the meaning of this scripture?

"[Jesus Christ] Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, ..." (Colossians 1:15)

Just in case Chris is or will read this: Psalm 89:27 Was David a literal firstborn? What then did firstborn mean?

#57 Geode

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Posted 10 September 2011 - 03:07 AM

Yes, Chris, I get exactly what you're saying.

You claim to worship a jesus who is not God. This violates the First Commandment.

"Jesus is not God." Do you agree with this?

Years ago, I had a Mormon neighbor. I could not get him to admit that Jesus was God if I held a gun to his head. All cults deny the deity of Jesus.

TeeJay

TeeJay


I don't know why that Mormon neighbor would not tell you that Mormons believe that Jesus is divine. The diety of Jesus Christ is one of their most basic beliefs.

#58 Teejay

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Posted 11 September 2011 - 12:16 PM

[quote] name='Geode' timestamp='1315649263' post='74873']
I don't know why that Mormon neighbor would not tell you that Mormons believe that Jesus is divine. The diety of Jesus Christ is one of their most basic beliefs.
[/quote]

Geode,

Before I answer can I ask: Are you a Mormon?

TeeJay




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