Jump to content


Photo

Man Made "upright"


  • Please log in to reply
12 replies to this topic

#1 trilobyte

trilobyte

    Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 508 posts
  • Age: 50
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Philly

Posted 24 November 2006 - 08:34 AM

I've noticed another EFDF posters tag at the end of their post contains the following:

God's answer to man's evolution:
eccles 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.


Now do I believe God made man "upright"?..... Yes.

Do I believe the verse above speaks about the "creation of man" or " Adhering strictly to moral principles; righteous"

Lets look at the verse and not just a snippet of it.

ECC 7:27 "Look," says the Teacher, "this is what I have discovered: "Adding one thing to another to discover the scheme of things--

ECC 7:28 while I was still searching but not finding--I found one upright man among a thousand, but not one upright woman among them all.

ECC 7:29 This only have I found: God made mankind upright, but men have gone in search of many schemes."

Verse 28 using the creation approach seems to tell us that he looked at man and found just one in a thousand that did not have primate features......and not one woman with "modern human" features. In other words 999 men were knuckle draggers and ALL the women were knuckle draggers.

So onto verse 29...what does that then mean when the creation of man approach is used? It seems to tell us that all of mankind was made upright...then some developed primate knuckle dragging features.

Now wouldn't it be better to use the word "righteous" or some similar word in place of "upright"?

As I said above, I believe mankind was made in a "vertical position", but I don't think the verse presented above supports the actual physical day 6 creation aspects of mankind as described in Genesis but rather a "moral" position.

#2 ikester7579

ikester7579

    Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,500 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida
  • Interests:God, creation, etc...
  • Age: 48
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • I'm non-denominational

Posted 24 November 2006 - 09:28 AM

We are each entitled to our opinion. By the way, what are the inventions?

And if you want to apply this to morality, is evolution about morals, or an invention for man to become inmoral?
Added: A excuse to say there is no God, so man can continue to sin without remorse.

#3 trilobyte

trilobyte

    Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 508 posts
  • Age: 50
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Philly

Posted 24 November 2006 - 03:02 PM

ikester7579,
Just for the record I'm not trying to bust your stones here. I just think you are applying a wrong opinion to the verse.

How come there was found no up-right women? Are women still chimp like?
Was only 1 man out of 999 not chimp like?

But back to your questions
We are each entitled to our opinion. By the way, what are the inventions?




And if you want to apply this to morality, is evolution about morals, or an invention for man to become inmoral?

Schemes? Inventions? The NASV uses devices. Ryrie seems to think they are the persuit of foolish things.
Matthew Henry seems to think instead of looking for Gods institutions, he is looking for his own inventions.
Adam Clarke suggest human devices, imaginations, inventions, artifice with all their products: arts, science schemes, plans and all that they have found out for the destruction or melioration of life.

Certainly the term upright in these passages is not referring to man physical posture as compared to the physical posture of an ape.


Added: A excuse to say there is no God, so man can continue to sin without remorse.

Some may use evolution to get rid of God.

#4 ikester7579

ikester7579

    Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,500 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida
  • Interests:God, creation, etc...
  • Age: 48
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • I'm non-denominational

Posted 25 November 2006 - 01:22 AM

ikester7579,
Just for the record I'm not trying to bust your stones here.  I just think you are applying a wrong opinion to the verse.

How come there was found no up-right women?  Are women still chimp like?
Was only 1 man out of 999 not chimp like? 

But back to your questions
We are each entitled to our opinion. By the way, what are the inventions?
And if you want to apply this to morality, is evolution about morals, or an invention for man to become inmoral?

Schemes? Inventions? The NASV uses devices.  Ryrie seems to think they are the persuit of foolish things.
Matthew Henry seems to think instead of looking for Gods institutions, he is looking for his own inventions.
Adam Clarke suggest human devices, imaginations, inventions, artifice with all their products: arts, science schemes, plans and all that they have found out for the destruction or melioration of life.

Certainly the term upright in these passages is not referring to man physical posture as compared to the physical posture of an ape.
Added: A excuse to say there is no God, so man can continue to sin without remorse.

Some may use  evolution to get rid  of God.

View Post


http://www.yecheadqu....org/shame.html

With some of the answers I see here, I have to wonder if you are defending evolution?

I respect the opinions of the ones you have listed. And have no problem with yours. But I have to wonder why you have a problem with mine? That you would start a thread to single me out. I got your message in the other thread.

Also, have you ever heard of God's word taking on a dual meaning? One where one word can apply both spiritually, and physically? I test words for this. And if there is no contradiction, I deem it as such a word that can be used this way. Applying this to creation, has opened doors to me to find more answers.

http://www.yecheadqu...ation9.0.1.html

#5 trilobyte

trilobyte

    Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 508 posts
  • Age: 50
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Philly

Posted 25 November 2006 - 07:13 AM

http://www.yecheadqu....org/shame.html


I respect the opinions of the ones you have listed. And have no problem with yours. But I have to wonder why you have a problem with mine? That you would start a thread to single me out. I got your message in the other thread.

http://www.yecheadqu...ation9.0.1.html

View Post


I have a problem because you are presenting the verse in an incorrect context. It is not about evolution. That is, man not originating from a non-upright animal.

If I am wrong, then show me how I am so I can correct myself. If I am right then you should accept what I say and remove that part of your signature.

I honestly wish the verse had the meaning you assigned to it. It would make my job easier....but, it doesn't.

#6 D R

D R

    Mole troll. AKA dbs944

  • Banned
  • PipPipPip
  • 121 posts
  • Age: 46
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Respectfully Withheld

Posted 25 November 2006 - 10:07 AM

From reading all the posts above I get the impression this may have already been discussed elsewhere. As such, I may not be familiar with all which has transpired. If you haven't already done so, please read and consider applying Matthew 18:15. I hope I'm not considered out of line for suggesting this.

Thank you and may God bless you both.

#7 trilobyte

trilobyte

    Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 508 posts
  • Age: 50
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Philly

Posted 25 November 2006 - 11:07 AM

The above is not a sin against me...but rather a question about the interpretation and use of the scripture.

As I said above, I would love it if the verse is about the creation of man fully erect and not ape-like....but as I presented, i think it is a misapplication of scripture.

#8 D R

D R

    Mole troll. AKA dbs944

  • Banned
  • PipPipPip
  • 121 posts
  • Age: 46
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Respectfully Withheld

Posted 25 November 2006 - 11:50 AM

The above is not a sin against me...

View Post


Actually I was refering to the later half of the verse,"....between thee and him alone".

#9 ikester7579

ikester7579

    Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,500 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida
  • Interests:God, creation, etc...
  • Age: 48
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • I'm non-denominational

Posted 26 November 2006 - 12:19 AM

I have a problem because you are presenting the verse in an incorrect context.  It is not about evolution. That is, man not originating from a non-upright animal.

If I am wrong, then show me how I am so I can correct myself.  If I am right then you should accept what I say and remove that part of your signature.

I honestly wish the verse had the meaning you assigned to it. It would make my job easier....but, it doesn't.

View Post


I see you edited out what you did not want to address. So I post it again:


Also, have you ever heard of God's word taking on a dual meaning? One where one word can apply both spiritually, and physically? I test words for this. And if there is no contradiction, I deem it as such a word that can be used this way. Applying this to creation, has opened doors to me to find more answers.

http://www.yecheadqu...ation9.0.1.html


Is upright used as a physical position in God's word?

gen 37:7 For, behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and, lo, my sheaf arose, and also stood upright; and, behold, your sheaves stood round about, and made obeisance to my sheaf.

ex 15:8 And with the blast of thy nostrils the waters were gathered together, the floods stood upright as an heap, and the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea.

ps 20:8 They are brought down and fallen: but we are risen, and stand upright.

jer 10:5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

dan 8:18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.

dan 10:11 And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling.

acts 14:10 Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.


The main reason I refer the verse below to creation on a physical sense, as well as a moral one. Is because of the term: "God hath made".

eccles 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

You might think that created and made are the one in the same, as far as creation is concerned. But this verse makes the distinction that they are not:

gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

So there are different types of creation. These types are:

1) Said = a spiritual creation by God's divine power to speak creation. Such as speaking something into existence from nothing. A verbal command. A commandment creation.
2) Made = a creation that is formed. A creation that is formed into it's final form after being spoken into existence.
3) Object commanded creation = is where an object that is already created, is commanded to bring forth life.


So now the word made has been connected to creation. So "God hath made man upright" can apply to a physical creation.

So now we test this against the word of God. Does God making man upright physically contradict any part of God's word? And if you apply it physically, is it true, or not? And if it's not true, can you provide a verse that states this?

Historical fact: Egypt was around before Ecclesiastes was written. Egypt worshiped God's that were often half man, half animal. Some were even drawn on walls walking on 4 legs. Idols and statues were also made.

Attached File  090.jpg   15.08KB   90 downloads

So now we have reason to apply this physically as well as morally.

So now we take all three verses:

Ecclesiastes 7:

27 Behold, this have I found, saith the preacher, counting one by one, to find out the account:


So the preacher is physically counting the people in front of him.

28 Which yet my soul seeketh, but I find not: one man among a thousand have I found; but a woman among all those have I not found.


Were women allowed to worship with men in those days? So not one woman was found among the men the preacher was counting. One by one means the preacher was counting among the crowd before him.

29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.


Morally this fits. And physically this fits. and neither one contradicts the word of God.

So lets now take the word invention and see if it supports one view, or both views.

Define invention: Google.

To sum it up:
1) We have the word "upright" being used both morally, and physically in God's word.
2) We have the word "made" connecting to creation.
3) We have reason, because the Egyptians had God that were not physically upright.
4) The word invention fits both the physical, and moral issue as well.
5) And the most important, no contradictions in any other part of the word of God.

#10 D R

D R

    Mole troll. AKA dbs944

  • Banned
  • PipPipPip
  • 121 posts
  • Age: 46
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Respectfully Withheld

Posted 26 November 2006 - 06:53 AM

My preferred Bible is the KJV New Defenders Study Bible, annotated with study notes by Dr. Henry Morrison. I obtained my Bible from ICR.

Here is what Dr. Morrison’s note on ECC 7:29 says: “God made man in his own image (Ge 1:27). The fact there is not a just man on earth is due entirely to the fact that all men, beginning with Adam, have deliberately disobeyed God and gone their own way, seeking many devices to escape from God.”

Dr. Morrison uses the word “just”, meaning righteous. The best way to determine the original meaning is to determine the original Aramaic, Hebrew or Greek word. Lacking access to the original word, I looked in other versions of the Bible. Here is a summary of what I found:

Contemporary English Version: "I did learn one thing: We were completely honest when God created us, but now we have twisted minds."

New Life Version: "See, I have found only this, that God made men right, but they have found many sinful ways."

New International Reader's Version: "Here's the only other thing I found. God made men honest. But they've made many evil plans."

I also looked in several foreign language versions of the Bible to see what word or phase they used and what it translated to in English. Here is a summary of that search:

La Bible du Semeur (French): “...made the men right…”

La Nuova Diodati (Italian): “…made the man resistant…” (I take that to mean resistant to sin).

Het Boek (Dutch): “…has made people sincere…”

Luther Bibel 1545 (German): “…God made humans sincere…”

Additionally,

By the way, what are the inventions?

View Post


Dr. Morrison's note says this, "...deliberately disobeyed God and gone their own way, seeking many devices to escape God."

From the sources I’ve previously cited, it means:

Contemporary English Version: “…but now we have twisted minds.”

New Life Version: “…but they have found many sinful ways.”

New International Reader's Version: “…But they've made many evil plans.”

La Bible du Semeur (French): “…they sought many complications.”

La Nuova Diodati (Italian): “…but the men have searched many artifices.”

Het Boek (Dutch): “…has made people sincere…”

Luther Bibel 1545 (German): “…but they look for many arts.”

As such I have to say the word “upright” in this verse means righteous (virtuous or some similar word) and is not a reference to creation vs. evolution.

So, what is the original Aramaic/Hebrew/Greek word used? Does anyone know?

#11 D R

D R

    Mole troll. AKA dbs944

  • Banned
  • PipPipPip
  • 121 posts
  • Age: 46
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Respectfully Withheld

Posted 26 November 2006 - 09:12 AM

Het Boek (Dutch):  “…has made people sincere…”

View Post


The second reference to Het Boek should have said:

Het Boek (Dutch): “…people have turned away from God to follow other ways."

#12 Fred Williams

Fred Williams

    Administrator / Forum Owner

  • Admin Team
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,541 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Broomfield, Colorado
  • Interests:I am a Senior Staff Firmware Engineer at Micron, and am co-host of Real Science Radio.
  • Age: 55
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Broomfield, Colorado

Posted 26 November 2006 - 09:21 AM

Howdy all,

Here’s my honest opinion and two cents on this. When I first saw Ikester's signature, like Trilobyte and D R my impression was that ‘upright’ in Ecclesiastes 7:29 referred to righteousness; nevertheless the sig didn’t really bother me because I suspected it was being used as satire and I thought it was funny, so any implications on its actually scriptural accuracy wasn’t a big deal to me. However, after this thread I felt compelled to study this passage and so offer the following opinion, fallible as it is. :P

I did some research on the Hebrew word for ‘upright’ used in the passage, which is ‘yashar’. It means ‘straight or even; literally or figuratively’. Where it is used in the Bible, the context does seem to be the figurative ‘moral’ or righteousness application. Searching the internet also yielded its application as ‘straight’ in the sense of “the straight path” (righteousness; as contrasted to a wayward, or crooked path). For example, note its use in Kings 15:5: “because David did what was right in the eyes of the LORD”. The Hebrew word ‘yashar’ is used for ‘right’ in the passage above. So it could be translated “because David did what was upright in the eyes of the LORD”, or “because David walked a straight path in the eyes of the LORD”. All the examples of ‘yashar’ in the Bible were like this example, where the context of the word was always the figurative righteousness.

However, my exegesis also doesn’t support Trilobyte’s rebuttal, specifically his use of verse 28:

ECC 7:28 while I was still searching but not finding--I found one upright man among a thousand, but not one upright woman among them all. …

Verse 28 using the creation approach seems to tell us that he looked at man and found just one in a thousand that did not have primate features…..and not one woman with "modern human" features. In other words 999 men were knuckle draggers and ALL the women were knuckle draggers.


Verse 28 does not contain any reference to yashar (upright), his translation inserted it. The NKJV translates it correctly:

Eccl 7:28 Which my soul still seeks but I cannot find: One man among a thousand I have found, But a woman among all these I have not found. NKJV

[quick plug for Bible preference: More often than not I encounter examples just like this, where the KJV or NKJV follows the Hebrew the best; I personally use the NKJV over the KJV because it’s easier to read of the two. :)]

I believe verse 28 is Solomon’s use of hyperbole for the wicked women he encountered (see v26). I also believe that ‘man’ in verse 29 refers to men and women (mankind). The Hebrew word used is ‘adam’, which Strongs indicates can be a male individual or mankind. The reason I believe it refers to mankind in v29 is because it matches the context of the entire passage, particularly note verse 20: “For there is not a just man on earth who does good And does not sin.” Eccl 7:20

So where does this leave us? The passages Ikester used as examples where upright means the literal ‘vertical’ is not the same Hebrew word used in Eccl 7:29, so that argument also doesn’t really work. However, I think we would all agree that Ikester is correct that God often uses multiple meanings within passages. What I find interesting in Ecclesiastes 7:29 is that it seems there are other words God could have chosen for righteousness, in fact within this passage there are other versions of the word used, for example in verse 20, the Hebrew word ‘towb’ is used for “good”, instead of ‘yashar’.

This I know: God has a wonderful sense of humor, and God loves to use multiple meanings with passages. My thread on ‘The Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil' very much relies on this. So while I admit it is somewhat a stretch to equate a dual meaning of Eccl 7:29 to a satirical rebuke of evolution, I honestly do think it is possible God intentionally intended this dual meaning. God again could have used different words for righteousness but instead chose a word that can either be a literal “straight” or a figurative “straight”.

Sorry for the wishy-washy on the fence answer :), but this truly is my opinion on this. What could really resolve this is the opinion of a bonafide Hebrew scholar, who may tell us that yashar is never used for upright posture in any context, in which case I would have to seriously question the dual meaning. But if it can be used for upright posture, then Ikester's dual meaning becomes quite tenable. So based on what I have determined, right now I really don’t have much problem with Ikester's sig. However, because of confusion I might suggest adding in the bold title of the sig something like ‘God's satirical answer to man's evolution?:’

Fred

#13 ikester7579

ikester7579

    Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,500 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida
  • Interests:God, creation, etc...
  • Age: 48
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • I'm non-denominational

Posted 26 November 2006 - 11:59 AM

Well thanks Fred. But I decided to remove the phrase: God's answer to evolution, and just leave the verse. I figure if the usage causes this much hassle, then the reference be removed, and let the reader figure it out.

It did actaully start out as a joke. But the more I looked into it, it seemed to fit so nicely. Anyway, causing this much stir makes me change the reference, but leave the verse.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users