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Understanding Genesis 1 & 2


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#1 4Pillars

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 08:52 AM

Here's my take ....

Genesis 1:1 is actually a preface - The Story of the Beginning of Creation.

Genesis 1:2 narrate us the condition of the deep BEFORE the actual making of the physical heaven and earth in the beginning.

"In the beginning God Created the heaven and the Earth. v2 And the Earth was without form, (Dust) and void; (Empty) and darkness (Death) was upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

Genesis 1:3 document us the bringing forth of the "Word" (Light) into this physical world BEFORE anything is made -- to turn the condition of the deep (empty) from darkness (death) to light (life).

The brightness of the glory of the Son provided that Light in the beginning (ALPHA) ref. Gen. 1:3 as he will also provide the Light in the end (OMEGA) ref. Rev. 21:23.

Genesis 1:4 God divided the Light from the darkness before the start of any creation - the first work of old.

Genesis 1:5 Light Day and Night - the 1st. Day.

Based on the above analogy and reconciliation of Scriptures, the heaven and earth were still null & void (non-existence) at this time (Gen.1:1-5) do you agree?

My question is why YEC's seem not to notice that the actual formation of the first heaven only took place on the 2nd. day (Gen. 1:6-8) and the earth was made on the 3rd day - not Genesis 1:1 as others would like us to believe.

Your thought please.....


God Bless

#2 ikester7579

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 09:39 AM

Here's my take ....

Genesis 1:1 is actually a preface - The Story of the Beginning of Creation.

Genesis 1:2 narrate us the condition of the deep BEFORE the actual making of the physical heaven and earth in the beginning.

"In the beginning God Created the heaven and the Earth. v2 And the Earth was without form, (Dust) and void; (Empty) and darkness (Death) was upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."


First off there was no death until the first sin. That is made clear in the word of God. In fact it was man's curse for committing sin when he had the choice not to.

Also there are three heavens:

2cor 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Heaven one is physical, it is where we live (world).
Heaven two is spiritual, it is where Satan is (prince of the air).
Heaven three is spiritual, it is where God is (highest heaven).

Now before you get confused, heaven in God's word is used for the word realm as we would understand it today. Much like parallel universe. Because there are three heavens, we have to determine which heaven is being talked about by the use of the words around it.

Genesis 1:3 document us the bringing forth of the "Word" (Light) into this physical world BEFORE anything is made -- to turn the condition of the deep (empty) from darkness (death) to light (life).


The word spirit is used only once in creation. It was to show that what God was fixing to do was spiritual. So what did God do after the use of the word spirit?

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Being that light is a representation of good, and darkness evil. We have a dual creation going on. And is why words like form and void are being used. Because the form and void applied to the spiritual side of creation.

1) When the first light was created:
a) Created day on the physical side.
B) And because the fist light was spiritual, it did not cast shadows (1 John 1:5). And is the very reason it had to be separated. Light was a representation of good, so God's heaven was created here when the light separation took place.

2) Dakness:
a) Created night on the physical side.
B) And because there was spiritual light means there was spiritual darkness. So Satan's heaven (realm) was being set up, and he and Angels were being placed there. The void of this heaven was being filled with evil.

So what actually caused the first light to shine? God manifesting Himself to the physical heaven (realm) He has just made.

The brightness of the glory of the Son provided that Light in the beginning (ALPHA) ref. Gen. 1:3 as he will also provide the Light in the end (OMEGA) ref. Rev. 21:23.

Genesis 1:4 God divided the Light from the darkness before the start of any creation - the first work of old.


Being there had been no sin yet. The curse of death had not yet been given. Which makes the time between genesis 1 till the first sin eternity time on earth. For what is time without death? Eternal correct? This is why creation of things are made of old without the passing of actual time to make them old. In the eternal creation passage of time is not needed to create. It is why all physical objects, and life were created fully formed and ready to sustain life.

Genesis 1:5 Light Day and Night - the 1st. Day.

Based on the above analogy and reconciliation of Scriptures, the heaven and earth were still null & void (non-existence) at this time (Gen.1:1-5) do you agree?


Earth is created in the first verse. The word created is used as a verb to what is actually happening. The null and void applies to the three heavens not being created and filled yet.

My question is why YEC's seem not to notice that the actual formation of the first heaven only took place on the 2nd. day (Gen. 1:6-8) and the earth was made on the 3rd day - not Genesis 1:1 as others would like us to believe.

Your thought please.....
God Bless

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1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Notice the order of this creation. If you are going to create something, first you have to have a place to put it, correct? So we have a physical object, so we need a physical heaven (realm) to put it. So heaven is first, earth is created and placed in it.

The second and third heavens were created when the first spiritually produced light was created then separated. The verses in revelation explain the verses in genesis by showing the exact same circumstances existing. And also explaining where light can come from when no physical source for it exists.

Rev. 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.


What I see in your explaination is your omission of words to make your theory of old earth work. I use every word and can go into an even more indepth explaination than this. I don't have to randomly skip things to make what I believe to work. And all that I believe is backed up in other parts of the word as well.

#3 4Pillars

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 12:47 PM

First off there was no death until the first sin. That is made clear in the word of God. In fact it was man's curse for committing sin when he had the choice not to.


Well, perhaps, you’re not aware that the word “darkness” is ALSO a metaphor for “death”, biblical speaking, would that be the case?

Also there are three heavens:

2cor 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.


Correct, there are three heavens mentioned in the Bible. However, just so you know, all of them are literal contrary to your view.

You’re cited text above proves my point and is where Jesus went to prepare a place for us when this world is burned, LITERALLY speaking – ref. John 14:1-2 see my signature.

Now before you get confused, heaven in God's word is used for the word realm as we would understand it today. Much like parallel universe. Because there are three heavens, we have to determine which heaven is being talked about by the use of the words around it.
The word spirit is used only once in creation. It was to show that what God was fixing to do was spiritual. So what did God do after the use of the word spirit?


Sorry but your opinion is only based on your own religious assumption and the Scripture, does not support it. Did you know that the first heaven (the garden of Eden) was surrounded by waters?

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Being that light is a representation of good, and darkness evil. We have a dual creation going on. And is why words like form and void are being used. Because the form and void applied to the spiritual side of creation.


The LIGHT that was spoken in Genesis 1:3 was the bringing forth of the glory Son himself. And that True Light (Gen. 1:3) was not created as you assume it to be but rather was brough forth from the invisible realm of his Father into this physical world. Do you want Scripture?

Earth is created in the first verse. The word created is used as a verb to what is actually happening. The null and void applies to the three heavens not being created and filled yet.
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Notice the order of this creation. If you are going to create something, first you have to have a place to put it, correct? So we have a physical object, so we need a physical heaven (realm) to put it. So heaven is first, earth is created and placed in it.


Here’s my take…

There are several reasons why I believe that the word used in Gen. 1:1 is Heaven and not Heavens (plural). In the context of the text, I see the narrative as saying:

In the beginning God Created the heaven (Air) and the Earth (Ground). And the Earth (Ground) was without form, (Dust) and void; (Empty) and darkness (death) was upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

The 3 elements necessary for all physical form are shown... Air, Dust, and Water. Everything which is physical is composed of these 3 elements. The text is correct in showing that the water was not directly created, or spoken into being, because it consists of elements of the Air or Atmosphere. Water is Hydrogen and Oxygen and came from the Atmosphere and is not shown as a separate creation.

This is correct in today's scientific knowledge, but IF the Bible were written by Ancient men, Moses would not have known this. He would have written that in the beginning God created the Air, Dust, and Water, but since God Himself is the Author, He correctly shows that the Atmosphere and Ground were created, and the Water was not a separate creation but instead, came from the Atmosphere.

God Bless

#4 4Pillars

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 01:27 PM

Gen. 1:6-8 shows that the 1st Firmament or Heaven, as God calls it in Gen. 1:8 was formed on the 2nd Day.

The narrative of Gen. 1:1-2 is speaking of the period BEFORE the 1st Day.

Jesus speaks of this time, in the Garden of Gethsemane:

And now, O Father, glorify thou Me with Thine Own Self with the Glory which I had with Thee BEFORE the world was." John 17:5

If one believes that In the beginning God created the Heavens (Plural) BEFORE the 1st Day, then the Words of Jesus would seem to be in error.

If one believes that the 1st Firmament or Heaven was formed on the 2nd Day, then it would agree with Jesus, and would show that Jesus came into this physical World Before the 1st Heaven was formed.

#5 4Pillars

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 03:32 PM

What I see in your explaination is your omission of words to make your theory of old earth work. I use every word and can go into an even more indepth explaination than this. I don't have to randomly skip things to make what I believe to work. And all that I believe is backed up in other parts of the word as well.

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Is that right? Then let me share you my reconciliation of the text based strictly on the Words, as it is written – to refute your insinuation above

THIS IS THE STORY OF THE BEGINNING in CHRONOLOGICAL order of events - before God created our heaven and the earth, ref. (Genesis 1:1) Note: Insertions are mine for clarity of thoughts.

In the beginning was the Word (Light), and the Word was with God (Father), and the Word was God (Son). John 1:1

The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. Proverbs 8:22

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Genesis 1:2

The same was in the beginning with God. John 1:2

I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. Proverbs 8:23

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. Genesis 1:3

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:3

When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Proverbs 8:24

And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. Genesis 1:4

In him was life; and the life was the light of men. John 1:4

Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: Proverbs 8:25

And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. Genesis 1:5

And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. John 1:5


Note: As we can see, based on the reconciliation of the 3 witnesses (Scriptures) above, the text document us the bringing forth of the glory of the “WORD” (Light) into our physical world (Genesis 1:3) BEFORE anything is made that was made in the beginning.

Now, you see my friend, I believe that you’re too fast to judge my post with mental equivocation but too slow to understand the meaning of the actual spiritual Words written in the Scripture. Just my opinion.

May the good Lord share you more wisdom and understanding.

God Bless

#6 ikester7579

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 10:07 PM

I would like you to list the creation verses in Genesis (all of them), then explain them. Jumping around God's word and taking things out of context to make a point does not justify your view on creation. If you want me to understand, you list the verses in Genesis, explain them, then list supporting verses. Other wise to me it looks like you making this stuff up as you go.

You started this thread, the burden of proof for what you claim falls upon your shoulders, not mine.

If you want more information on the three heavens, you can find it here: http://www.evolution...p?showtopic=447

And more on the creation of first and second light: http://www.evolution...p?showtopic=138

These are my views on the subject in those threads. You may copy and paste what you would like to discuss from there to here. Admin 3 was my other name at this forum. So all admin 3 posts are my posts as well.

#7 4Pillars

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Posted 09 March 2007 - 07:44 AM

I would like you to list the creation verses in Genesis (all of them), then explain them. Jumping around God's word and taking things out of context to make a point does not justify your view on creation. If you want me to understand, you list the verses in Genesis, explain them, then list supporting verses. Other wise to me it looks like you making this stuff up as you go.

You started this thread, the burden of proof for what you claim falls upon your shoulders, not mine.

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Dear ikester,

I believe I have provided my own analogy, scriptural reconciliation (3 witnesses) and biblical proof text that are in harmony together in support of my view of the OP -- leading to the events that took place before the creation of our heaven and earth – in chronological order, I must say – contrary to your doctrinal faith.

Do you have any Scripture (even just one) to prove me wrong otherwise?

Also, please tell our readers exactly which of these events I listed above you consider to be out of context to the original post and feel that I was jumping around. Do you really understand the thrust of the message of the OP?

Either come up with your own reconciliation of the Scripture (not your own religious assumption) to prove me wrong or be more attentive and open minded that you may hear the Word as promised.

Look...

Isaiah 42:16 And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them.

God Bless

#8 ikester7579

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Posted 09 March 2007 - 07:55 AM

Dear ikester,

I believe I have provided my own analogy, scriptural reconciliation (3 witnesses) and biblical proof text that are in harmony together in support of my view  of the OP -- leading to the events that took place before the creation of our heaven and earth – in chronological order, I must say – contrary to your doctrinal faith.

Do you have any Scripture (even just one) to prove me wrong otherwise?

Also, please tell our readers exactly which of these events I listed above you consider to be out of context to the original post and feel that I was jumping around. Do you really understand the thrust of the message of the OP?

Either come up with your own reconciliation of the Scripture (not your own religious assumption) to prove me wrong or be more attentive and open minded that you may hear the Word as promised.

Look...

Isaiah 42:16 And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them.

God Bless

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Since you started this thread to only argue. And are now using scripture to say that we are all blind (stupid) and going down a crooked path. I'm closing the thread. Your treading on thin ice at this forum.

Using God's word for name calling will get you banned. You have been warned.

Thread closed.

#9 Fred Williams

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Posted 09 March 2007 - 12:01 PM

This thread started with a legit question worthy of debate but ended up with a condescending tone, especially when Isaiah 42:16 was invoked. Let’s start over and refrain from the type of emotion we all can easily succumb to when we have a strong opinion of something. I’ll reopen the thread later this evening, and will move it to the Bible Q&A. My intent for the ‘Young Earth vs Old Earth’ is more for the scientific questions than the theological ones. I’ll try to make this clearer in the forum sub-heading. If this makes things even more confusing, please let me know your opinions on where to stage the theological debate on this question of YEC vs OEC.

4Pillars, feel free to respond to the pinned topic in the Bible Q&A, ‘Old Earth Theology Is Incompatible With The Bible’.

http://www.evolution...?showtopic=1006

Again, I’ll also re-open this thread you started tonight, but over in the Bible Q&A. I personally may not be able to respond until Monday or so as I have relatives visiting.

Fred

#10 4Pillars

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Posted 12 March 2007 - 11:36 AM

Thanks for opening back the thread, Fred.

Anyway, here's how I read the Book of Genesis (Creation).

Genesis 1 is the History leading to the Creation of the 3rd Heaven. It details the History of How the Godhead Created His Perfect, physical, World.

Most of it is past, but some of it is still future. Gen. 1:29 shows us Prophecy that mankind will Eat of Every Tree, which includes the Tree of Life. This prophecy is fulfilled in Heaven. Rev. 22:2

Gen. 1:30 is also future and will be fulfilled when Jesus Returns to this Planet, and the Lion eats Straw as the Ox. Isaiah 11:7

When these prophecies are fulfilled, God's Creation of His Perfect Heaven, will be completed, and brought to Perfection....Finished. Then God will Rest or Sabbath, and He will Cease "ALL His work which God created and made." Gen. 2:3

That's why we are taken back to the 3rd Day at Gen 2:4. The narrative is adding details to the events listed in Gen 1. Both accounts agree totally and in detail.

What is amazing is that God wrote our History more than 3,000 years ago, and the events at the end of the 6th Day are still Future. IOW, God told the complete story of the Creation in Genesis 1 and beginning at Gen 2:4, we begin to learn the details of the events of Genesis 1.

God Bless

#11 4Pillars

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 12:12 PM

Sorry, wrong thread... :D

#12 Fred Williams

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 09:46 PM

The brightness of the glory of the Son provided that Light in the beginning (ALPHA) ref. Gen. 1:3 as he will also provide the Light in the end (OMEGA) ref. Rev. 21:23.

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This is a rare point of agreement (or at the very least Jesus being the light on day 1 is a reasonable possibility). This isn’t the view of traditional old earthers. They claim the sun was created on day 1.

Your view contradicts your love of secular science. :) It doesn't accomodate any kind of "big bang" at all, as the progressive creationist (Hugh Rossist) view does. SO maybe there is hope for you. :D

Based on the above analogy and reconciliation of Scriptures, the heaven and earth were still null & void (non-existence) at this time (Gen.1:1-5) do you agree?


No. The phase “without form and void” is not the same thing as “non-existence”.

My question is why YEC's seem not to notice that the actual formation of the first heaven only took place on the 2nd. day (Gen. 1:6-8) and the earth was made on the 3rd day - not Genesis 1:1 as others would like us to believe.


Because we take the Genesis account as plain language and do not try minimize it into poetry or allegory in order to fit in secular (and the often atheistic) idea of millions of years. The atmosphere was created on the 2nd day, and dry land was created on day along with the plants, just as the text says.

Ps 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD Than to put confidence in man.

Fred




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