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Evolution Of Angels?


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#41 lordfaunswater

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Posted 01 July 2007 - 08:52 AM

And I suppose the Romans read Isaiah 53 and said to each other...lets do that to him.

And I suppose the UN got together and read scripture and said...lets re-form Israel

And I suppose the historians got to gether and said...lets recreate history so it matches the statue in Daniel.
The list goes on and on.


All im saying is that if its predicted that a messiah will be put do death, the Romans would of done it. Everywhere he went he was a source of unrest, for good or bad. What more initiative is needed to murder a person then a passage in scripture? Its still happening today.
The formation of Israel was an obvious and needed thing to do following the Holocaust. Yes, if you believe in Prophecy, then thats one fulfilled. But ironically it needed the murder of millions of God's chosen people before this could happen, and it was plagued with controversy at the time. Even now, Israel is in turmoil. You can look at it from both angles.
I never said that some parts of the bible arnt accurate.

The citizens themselves recognized that the miracles of Jesus were signs, signs that could only be known through Prophecy of the scriptures, they recognized the signs as the signs of David.

Then, even the Pharasees called a meeting of the Sanhedrin, who again recognized the signs performed by Christ, which they could have only knowledge of from the scriptures in order to recognize the Messiah.


But thats my point! If it wasnt for Prophecy, there would be no Messiah. Why did we need Prophecy to identify him?


I don't want to get too far off topic here, I just want to nip the Prophecy discussion in the bud so to speak. I doubt very much that you have done enough study in this area to argue for or against and as such you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

The Messiah had to be delivered to the Romans so that He could die by the hands of Gentiles in order to bridge the gap between Jew and Gentile so that Christ's sacrtifice would be for all people and as Christ Himself said to the Samaritan woman (a Gentile) that Salvation is from the Jews...


Thats fair enough. I dont study the bible, so i apologise if ive made errors. I attended church long enough to know the basics though. Im arguing to ask questions, to learn more. I didnt turn the topic onto the rest of bible, i spoke about angels and how you know they exist. What do you mean by "sacrifice for all people"?


The whole prophetic discussion is way beyond the scope of this discussion and even as a non-believer it has to be correctly studied first before you can argue against what or how the prophecy works from a biblical perspective.


Thats a fair point, but the same goes for "disproving" science.

Personally I believe that even the so called Theo-Evolutionist is a Uniformatarian in that they believe that the world has always been the same, which unfortunately places this believer into prophetic passages literally as "unbelievers".


Yes but no matter how good a prophecy is, the facts dont lie. The Earth doesnt lie. You cant just ignore it.


For me the Acreation Theory is the ultimate theory which not only has evidence on earth but irrefutable evidence on plaents and moons in our solar system, and ultimately provides the most logical approach to plate tectonics.


Accretion is when sediment is added right? We know that happens on tectonic plates, because we see Basaltic Rock in Continental landmasses. Why, if the earth can reasonably expand with this theory, do we get earthquakes and subduction?


Finally, getting back on track for the Angels, I'm not 100% certain if the Angels were all created at the same time but as Adam and Eve they did have to pass a test of Holiness, this test of Holiness is done with regard to obedience which both Satan and Adam and Eve failed.

It's been a while since I studied Angels so Im not sure if they were all created at the same time or in sequences.


Again thats speculation. If god is perfect why would his creations needed to be tested for holiness? Whats the point in the Elaborate Prophecies?

You say you've not studied them for a while, but if you find out from reading the bible, there will be no doubt about them. You wont have seen or even spoke an Angel, but the bible will clarify it for you. Theres no evidence, and there doesnt have to be. Am i right? Tell me if im wrong.


Lord F

#42 trilobyte

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Posted 01 July 2007 - 04:32 PM

But thats my point! If it wasnt for Prophecy, there would be no Messiah. Why did we need Prophecy to identify him?


You tell me lordfaunswater. The prophecy is out there for you to see...and you deny the Messiah.

#43 lordfaunswater

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Posted 02 July 2007 - 04:11 AM

You tell me lordfaunswater.  The prophecy is out there for you to see...and you deny the Messiah.

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I dont deny the messiah, i question it as everyone should. I can understand how a prophecy might be convincing but at the same time whats it based on? How, if they are SO convincing can there be so much variation in people's belief? For example, Jews dont see the prophecies as evidence for a Messiah, and nor do some protestant christians. The prophecies are clearly open to much interpretation.

#44 Christopher_John

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Posted 02 July 2007 - 08:46 PM

I dont deny the messiah, i question it as everyone should. I can understand how a prophecy might be convincing but at the same time whats it based on? How, if they are SO convincing can there be so much variation in people's belief? For example, Jews dont see the prophecies as evidence for a Messiah, and nor do some protestant christians. The prophecies are clearly open to much interpretation.

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Not really, the Jews fulfill Prophecy by denying the Messiah as was foretold by the Prophets they would.

Peoples belief's vary in every form of activity and knowledge, no matter what the case may be...politics is a great example, teaching methods in schools, how a person should approach a particular way of problem solving, it's to be expected, you don't actually believe that variation within people's opinions is exclusive to religious belief's do you?...I wouldn't expect you to either.

Not all denominations preach the Gospel by Prophecy alone, some do, very few, but most are trying to get the message of salvation across because that is the ultimate purpose for the age that we are in.

I've done a fairly extensive study in Messianic Prophecy and I have seen both sides, coming from a position as a former atheist it was only once I decided to stop riding what the average person wanted me to believe negatively about the Christian faith that I finally got fed up and decided to read for myself to make sure if I was going to reject it that I was going to do so under my own interpretation and not let society influence that interpretation.

Funny thing is my eye's are now opened to the truth, it is the humanist view that is truly destroying the earth, killing the innocent, maiming the children, corrupting the young, robbing their neighbours. The crimes of the past by those who attempted to kill in the name of religion doesn't even come close to the nearly half billion people who have died at the hands of the humanist world view, it is exactly this humanist view which is the true spirit of Antichrist, people barking down against the Messiah who basically summed it up in two simple rules;

1:Love God with all your heart mind and spirit

2: Love your neighbor as much as you love yourself.

People loved and idolized John Lennon especially for songs like "Imagine" where he tries to paint a rosy picture of mankind without religion. The biggest joke is, if people had respected Gods laws then John Lennon would still be alive today...talk about irony :)

Peace
CJ

#45 Christopher_John

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Posted 02 July 2007 - 09:51 PM

All im saying is that if its predicted that a messiah will be put do death, the Romans would of done it. Everywhere he went he was a source of unrest, for good or bad. What more initiative is needed to murder a person then a passage in scripture? Its still happening today.

Fair enough, but the question now deals with the details of the prophecies themselves.
I'll link Isaiah 53 so as not to clutter up this post but take the time and read it slowly ---------> Isaiah 53

Keep in mind that Isaiah 53 was written somewhere between 700-650 B.C., this wasn't just a fluke that someone made at the same time he was alive or just prior too

I think what is important to know is that amongst the religious leadership of the Jews there were two factions, the Pharasees and Sadducees. The Pharasees believed that the scriptures told of a coming Messiah, and the Sadducees rejected the idea that the scriptures foretold of a coming Messiah.

Jesus was a Jew, He observed the Mosaic Laws, He taught the Torah in the synagogues, Jesus was a religious man, regardless if people want to deny His deity but they cannot deny His religious authority. Christianity by origin is a Jewish religion it came first from Jews then to the Gentiles (Non-Jews).

So why do the Jews so greatly reject a religion that is inherent to them? why have the non-Jewish people become so responsible in handling a Jewsih faith? because all it does is fulfill prophecy 100% to the letter.

  The formation of Israel was an obvious and needed thing to do following the Holocaust. Yes, if you believe in Prophecy, then thats one fulfilled. But ironically it needed the murder of millions of God's chosen people before this could happen, and it was plagued with controversy at the time. Even now, Israel is in turmoil. You can look at it from both angles.

This within itself continues to uphold Prophecy, although Israel may have their recognition they are far from being at peace and are under constant threat from her neighbors and ultimately Israel is still being trodden on by Gentiles which is also scriptural, you have the second most important Islamic Mosque in the world sitting right on top of where the Jewish temple used to be...how much more controversial can youy get than that?

I never said that some parts of the bible arnt accurate.
But thats my point! If it wasnt for Prophecy, there would be no Messiah. Why did we need Prophecy to identify him?

So that the people would be prepared for His coming, to receive Him, this wasn't Bill Gates coming to town or Santa Clause, the true power and Glory of God would anihilate you even with your eye's closed, as you have heard so many times before God has a plan, that plan is redemption and has His own terms and timeline for doing so, not everything is meant to be revealed either, what is the point of having faith if you have to see to believe?

Doesn't knowing or seeing negate the whole concept of faith?

Thats fair enough. I dont study the bible, so i apologise if ive made errors. I attended church long enough to know the basics though. Im arguing to ask questions, to learn more. I didnt turn the topic onto the rest of bible, i spoke about angels and how you know they exist. What do you mean by "sacrifice for all people"?

Christ existed, therefore angels existed because Christ had to deal with demons and demons are fallen Angels, the Prophet Daniel had his prophecy explained to him by an angel, so that agin is solid enough for me to believe because my Grandfather never talked to me about religion while I was growing up, he never went to Church, he replaced my father as my father had died when I was 3 but for some reason after my Grandfather died when I was 26 and he died at 90, he came to me in a dream and told me to read the gospel, "no matter what happpens read the gospel". It took me over 10 years to finally start reading it but now I understand the message, it wasn't my grandfather in the dream because God is the God of the living and he was dead, the person who spoke those words to me in my dream was a servant of God.

Thats a fair point, but the same goes for "disproving" science.
Yes but no matter how good a prophecy is, the facts dont lie. The Earth doesnt lie. You cant just ignore it.

The earth doesn't lie but mankind may not know the earth as well as they think they do.

Accretion is when sediment is added right? We know that happens on tectonic plates, because we see Basaltic Rock in Continental landmasses. Why, if the earth can reasonably expand with this theory, do we get earthquakes and subduction?

Wooops!... back up a minute, subduction has never been proven and is pure speculation, I have a 6 year background as a technologist in a thermal plasma research facility and when you heat things up to high temperatures they vitrify, turn to glass, as does lava from volcanoes, it doesn't break back down to silica or turn into earth, the properties required to do so no longer exist in the material and it remains in an inert state indefinately,meaning we have no idea how long it will take to actually breakdown but it cannot return to a silicate structure.

What acreation proves, is that the earth was once smaller and all the land masses were connected like a giant egg shell covering the earth and pulled apart (thus the Pangea theory click on the link in my signature where it says "Plate Tectonics"), leaving silicate growth between the continents, this has also been proven by the Office of Naval Research that the ocean bottom only measures 180 million years old but the surface of the earth measure 4.5 billion years old...Houston... we have a problem.

I'll never accept that the dating methods are correct because I believe in a young earth, but the ocean floor is alot younger than the tectonic plates, by how much is still not certain. It ciould actually be caused by water protecting the ocean floor filtering out all the harmful solar radiation.

Again thats speculation. If god is perfect why would his creations needed to be tested for holiness? Whats the point in the Elaborate Prophecies?

Well that's something you have to seek out for yourself, If a Prophecy writtten 650 years before a particular individual comes to life says that a Jewish man will become a light to the Nations of the earth, the Gentile nations, and today every nation on earth has a Christian group and they all look at this one man , a Jew as this so called light, at some point your gonna have to seek out the answer yourself the same way I did because the earth is full of too much corruption for this to have been a giant conspiracy to fool mankind, we just don't stick that closely together as a species, we're just too agrressive and ignorant.

I mean if all this were true wouldn't mankind be acting exactly the way they are towards Christianity? many people are driven to object to Christ, to deny him, to make sure that children grow up learning to ignore or stay away from Him, wouldn't we be being taught to do the complete opposite, indulge in alcohol?, drugs?...illicit s@x?, selfishness etc? what was Isaiah 53:6 ?
"6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."
Kind of hard to argue against that we have done exactly that.

What about verse5: "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed"

Have we all not broken those 2 commandments ? all 613 Moasic Laws were summed up into two so it doesn't matter how you look at it, you broke them and there is nothing nadda in science that can prove otherwise...

Is it good to steal? ,lust after another man's wife? etc...

You say you've not studied them for a while, but if you find out from reading the bible, there will be no doubt about them. You wont have seen or even spoke an Angel, but the bible will clarify it for you. Theres no evidence, and there doesnt have to be. Am i right? Tell me if im wrong.
Lord F

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And equally you believed in subduction from a book without ever actually seeing it, the ones who have written about it haven't even seen it but yet you believe in it, all you have to do is turn your faith in the right direction and you will have achieved salvation.

The objective of Christ's teachings was salvation through belief. Angels have their role, as well as the fallen angels having their role, but the main focus is placing your faith in God.

I guess you probably don't remember the story of doubting Thomas? after he placed his hand in Jesus' side where he had been pierced by the spear he said "My Lord and my God" then Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

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Peace
CJ

#46 lordfaunswater

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 06:19 AM

Thanks for your response.

I read the Isiah passage and ive got some questions i hope you can help me with.

Firstly, what immediately struck me about it is that its written in a mixture of past, present and future tense. It speaks of events that have already happened and follows them with events that will happen. While it may imply details to occur in the future, it also appears that the author has witnessed or been affected by events then. Its also vague about the individual, it mentions no name or any other life details apart from those associated with a Jewish Messiah. Its not clear who is dictating it or who is writing it either, and it changes from an individual's perspective to a group's in parts. Also, if you compare it to another version of the bible, you'll see changes. One such change in the Youngs literal Translation replaces "seed" with "offspring". Seed could be interpreted to mean followers, but offspring, if read with a literal and prophetic eye means Children. Such words are open to an individual's perspective and whether or not the passage is indeed prophetic.


This within itself continues to uphold Prophecy, although Israel may have their recognition they are far from being at peace and are under constant threat from her neighbors and ultimately Israel is still being trodden on by Gentiles which is also scriptural, you have the second most important Islamic Mosque in the world sitting right on top of where the Jewish temple used to be...how much more controversial can youy get than that?


Not much. It just seems a bit long winded all the problems the Jews have trying to get their own state. Could you tell me why God didnt just give them their own
land from the off instead of making them struggle for all these years?


So that the people would be prepared for His coming, to receive Him, this wasn't Bill Gates coming to town or Santa Clause, the true power and Glory of God would anihilate you even with your eye's closed, as you have heard so many times before God has a plan, that plan is redemption and has His own terms and timeline for doing so, not everything is meant to be revealed either, what is the point of having faith if you have to see to believe?

Doesn't knowing or seeing negate the whole concept of faith?


Because whats the point in creating so many problems along with mankind? Why does god need redemption. He made us perfect so why make the tree of knowledge and demand redemption for his creations which have in built flaws? Whats the point. If your going too create things with the intention of a perfect world why be so short sighted?

If all you need is faith to believe in religion then no matter how convincing prophecy is, your belief is still no different from any other persons.


Christ existed, therefore angels existed because Christ had to deal with demons and demons are fallen Angels, the Prophet Daniel had his prophecy explained to him by an angel, so that agin is solid enough for me to believe because my Grandfather never talked to me about religion while I was growing up, he never went to Church, he replaced my father as my father had died when I was 3 but for some reason after my Grandfather died when I was 26 and he died at 90, he came to me in a dream and told me to read the gospel, "no matter what happpens read the gospel". It took me over 10 years to finally start reading it but now I understand the message, it wasn't my grandfather in the dream because God is the God of the living and he was dead, the person who spoke those words to me in my dream was a servant of God.


So theres no fine line between? I mean you cant possibly accept that jesus existed but the bible was written 2000+ years ago and by undoubtably less knowledgeable people who use superstition and the supernatural to explain life? We no longer accept witchcraft for disease or demons for eplisepsy, so is it enough for you to believe the existence of Angels etc? It ironic that if you dont believe in demons, you have nothing to do with them.

Im not going to say "Your wrong, you didnt see this in your dream", because everyone is entitled to their belief's. All i can say is that it was a dream, divinely inspired or otherwise, and we cannot just follow what dreams tell us. Despite the magnitude and relevence of it, its not unheard of to dream of loved ones who have passed on. My own grandfather has passed away, but ive not dreamed of him, and he dabbled in catholicism. So i respect that particular belief, i cant judge it because ive not experienced anything like that myself.


The earth doesn't lie but mankind may not know the earth as well as they think they do.


So mankinds greatest and most reliable interpretations of the earth's history just happen too co-incide with descriptions of the bible? You dont think the early Christian Geologists thought twice about that?


Wooops!... back up a minute, subduction has never been proven and is pure speculation, I have a 6 year background as a technologist in a thermal plasma research facility and when you heat things up to high temperatures they vitrify, turn to glass, as does lava from volcanoes, it doesn't break back down to silica or turn into earth, the properties required to do so no longer exist in the material and it remains in an inert state indefinately,meaning we have no idea how long it will take to actually breakdown but it cannot return to a silicate structure.

What acreation proves, is that the earth was once smaller and all the land masses were connected like a giant egg shell covering the earth and pulled apart (thus the Pangea theory click on the link in my signature where it says "Plate Tectonics"), leaving silicate growth between the continents, this has also been proven by the Office of Naval Research that the ocean bottom only measures 180 million years old but the surface of the earth measure 4.5 billion years old...Houston... we have a problem.

I'll never accept that the dating methods are correct because I believe in a young earth, but the ocean floor is alot younger than the tectonic plates, by how much is still not certain. It ciould actually be caused by water protecting the ocean floor filtering out all the harmful solar radiation.


Very little in science has actually been "proven". Theories are simply the best possible explanation of the evidence. Could you tell me why we can actually see plates according to your theories?

Posted Image

The sea floor is younger because its destroyed by subduction beneath continental landmasses.


And equally you believed in subduction from a book without ever actually seeing it, the ones who have written about it haven't even seen it but yet you believe in it, all you have to do is turn your faith in the right direction and you will have achieved salvation.

The objective of Christ's teachings was salvation through belief. Angels have their role, as well as the fallen angels having their role, but the main focus is placing your faith in God.

I guess you probably don't remember the story of doubting Thomas? after he placed his hand in Jesus' side where he had been pierced by the spear he said "My Lord and my God" then Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”


Fair enough, no person has yet seen subjuction because it would be impossible to do so. Granted i was taught about plate tectonics by a geologist of 25 years experience, but im still open too new discoveries. Its supported by evidence, thats the difference. If you can find a new explanation which accounts for evidence then im entirely ready to listen to it.

Lord F

#47 trilobyte

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 01:20 PM

I dont deny the messiah, i question it as everyone should. I can understand how a prophecy might be convincing but at the same time whats it based on? How, if they are SO convincing can there be so much variation in people's belief? For example, Jews dont see the prophecies as evidence for a Messiah, and nor do some protestant christians. The prophecies are clearly open to much interpretation.

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As an Athiest...how can you say that you don't deny the Messiah?

#48 lwj2op2

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 04:46 PM

Has it occured to you that by claiming to be the son of god - the messiah of prophecy, jesus allowed himself to be targeted? I mean the Romans put a crown of thorns on his head and they crucified him. Funnily enough, the propecies said that would happen to the messiah. Were the Romans taking the Piss out of him? Were they setting an example to the other jews? The Prophecy itself served as Jesus's demise.

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Yes. And it has served as more proof of authenticity. Much of what prophesied about Jesus was beyond the knowledge of the author and not sensible to write. Such as being born in Bethlehem at a specific time.

But how about his death. He did not choose the manner and I doubt the Romans, astute rulers, would not give any credence to His death by allowing any of the prophesies to appear correct. Almost the entire day, even gambling for his clothes, was prophesied. Also prophesied was His rise from the dead as well as the timing of the event. The Romans made every attempt to secure his body and not allow any chance of a claim of resurrection by stealing of the body. Romans and Jews both made every attempt to discount the resurrection. They had a difficult time though. People (I cannot recall if it was hundreds or thousands) witnessed Jesus alive after His crucification. They could all be lying. But why? They would not have simply been wrong. All were well acquainted with Him. Lets focus on 12, the disciples. One committed suicide before the crucification. Embarrassment, guilt? Don't know. The other 11 all died supporting Jesus. Each was executed over the next few years. Each was given a choice. Deny the resurrection of Jesus and live. None denied. They all witnessed Him "alive" after the crucification. Why would they not deny it in the face of death if they new it was not true.

Many of their deaths are recorded in extra biblical accounts by Romans and Jews. Josephus did much of the Jewish research in the years immediately following Jesus' crucification. He had hoped to offer proof that Jesus was dead.

#49 lordfaunswater

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Posted 04 July 2007 - 12:14 PM

You raise some good points, and some of them are hard to answer. Im not going to pretend im a biblical scholar or a historian and say your wrong because im not. Id also make a tit of myself.
If the gospels are a reliable account of history then the death of the deciples and their unwillingless to concede to pressure does make a convincing case. One could also say that, if the bible was contrived or exaggerated, why would embarrasing and humiliating details about Jesus's torture and death be included if it is an idealised piece of Jewish literature? All i can say is that the Deciples and indeed Jesus are not the only people though history to be killed for their religious belief and conviction.

#50 Christopher_John

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Posted 04 July 2007 - 01:08 PM

Thanks for your response.

I read the Isiah passage and ive got some questions i hope you can help me with.

Firstly, what immediately struck me about it is that its written in a mixture of past, present and future tense. It speaks of events that have already happened and follows them with events that will happen.

Exactly, but would would you be expecting from a Prophecy? the mixture includes the past from a future perspective (us today), the present His time of suffering, continued Prophetic future beyond our age or generation.

A prophecy is a prediction, some predictions are merely guesses which basically are not devine in nature, some are devine in nature. Regradless of where Christianity stands, if we stick exclusively to what the Judaists followed the scriptures clearly defined a Messiah was to come, in the case of Judaism they believed that the Prophecies spoke of two Messiah's because they could not see the double fulfillment of the First and Second coming.

I think basically to provide a clearer answer to your question I would need you to be more specific to a verse in particular or in comparison of two or more which seems unclear as to why one would be past, present and future and to what degree that would be an issue as that is the nature of a Prophecy to be all three.

Future tense for the author, past and present tense for the reader or follower of the time period in which He came, past, present and future for the reader or follower today, each verse having a relevance to indicate it as axiomatic.

While it may imply details to occur in the future, it also appears that the author has witnessed or been affected by events then.  Its also vague about the individual, it mentions no name or any other life details apart from those associated with a Jewish Messiah. Its not clear who is dictating it or who is writing it either, and it changes from an individual's perspective to a group's in parts.

This is also a "norm". Through Isaiah's prophecy we can feel his pain and sorrow as he has seen the future and comes to the realization that his people, the Jewish people rejected the Messiah that God had declared to come (Isaiah 42:1-4) and the rejection came as a "National" rejection, thus the reason why it reads in some places from a group perspective. So it does not become questionable but irrefutable, the Old Testament Prophecies foretold of His rejection by His own people and the New Testament confirms His rejection (John 1:10:11)

Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.  A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.


John 1:10-11

He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.


Also, if you compare it to another version of the bible, you'll see changes. One such change in the Youngs literal Translation replaces "seed" with "offspring". Seed could be interpreted to mean followers, but offspring, if read with a literal and prophetic eye means Children. Such words are open to an individual's perspective and whether or not the passage is indeed prophetic.

I disagree, I don't think anywhere in the Bible is the term seed ever accepted as followers, I think at that point one must struggle with great difficulties to accept that interpretation as such.
As far as discussing translations I use many of them I have a rather large collection of translations as well as Internet resources which cover just about every translation in existence but nonetheless each and every version preaches the salvation of mankind through the death of Christ Jesus.

Not much. It just seems a bit long winded all the problems the Jews have trying to get their own state. Could you tell me why God didnt just give them their own
land from the off instead of making them struggle for all these years?
Because whats the point in creating so many problems along with mankind? Why does god need redemption. He made us perfect so why make the tree of knowledge and demand redemption for his creations which have in built flaws? Whats the point. If your going too create things with the intention of a perfect world why be so short sighted?

Well that's your interpretation of it from the outside and your opinion reflects your position as having been one who has not studied scripture. What you have here is your inability to comprehend it as a whole. It doesn't conform to the vision in your mind, so you have to create an image in order to rationalize as well as justify your position to deny it from being factual, remember the second commandment? "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image". The Bible teaches us that God is incomprehensible, we will never obtain the level of knowledge of the Creator because we are creatures of His creation and therefore are subjected to a limitation of creaturely knowledge, this is why it takes mankind decades to solve problems or worse never fiund cures for things like the common cold or an even better example mankind's inability to not be able to "evolve" beyond the 10 commandments, as believer's we can, as non-believers you cannot. The only way to evolve from eternal separation from God to an eternal presence with Him is to accept that Christ died for your sins.

If all you need is faith to believe in religion then no matter how convincing prophecy is, your belief is still no different from any other persons.
So theres no fine line between? I mean you cant possibly accept that jesus existed but the bible was written 2000+ years ago and by undoubtably less knowledgeable people who use superstition and the supernatural to explain life? We no longer accept witchcraft for disease or demons for eplisepsy, so is it enough for you to believe the existence of Angels etc? It ironic that if you dont believe in demons, you have nothing to do with them.

Hehe... you didn't see evolution happen did you?...I mean you are taking it under 100% faith that life evolved from non-living tissue right? So how does that place you as a non-believer in a category of "Superiority" doesn't that equate you to the same position as me saying that Christianity is the one true religion?

Hopefully my point is getting across to you about how the Bible was formed, it wasn't written as one giant book it was many different books, writings, brought together, the Bible was written over a span of 1600 years and is not a book man could write if he would and the Bible is not a book man would write if he could. There is plenty of diversity in unity in the 66 books with over 40 authors.

I'm curious as to how you can make a claim of superstition as the Bible does not promote superstition or mysticism, I mean taking a look again at life evolving from nothing, I don't think science fiction can hit a higher level of ignorance when making the claim that Religion is nothing but myth and superstition due to not having an answer for the origin of life,but at the same time saying "life evolved from nothing" is the same thing as saying you don't have an answer for origins as well. So the evolution from nothing theory is "made up" in order to rationalize an existence without devine influence in order to maintain that the mind is superior to the Bible, nothing more.

If you had read the Gospels, you would have also known that both types of people wre being healed during the time of Christ, those that were identified as being demon posessed as well as those afflicted with epilepsy, so they clearly knew the difference between the two.

If I was afflicted by a demon which sometimes I do believe that we are all afflicted at different times, the difference being the believer can be controlled demonically but the non-believer can be fully posessed. Having now been bought by the blood of Christ I am owned by Him and demons cannot take possesion of a believer but they can control a believer, demons were defeated by Christ's death on the cross.

Unfortunately we live in a world with many of those who are afflicted with demons the fact that people believe in the Hollywood portrayal of demons allows a deception to take place which increases ones ability to look at demonic posession with ridicule, Satan and his little red costume with a ptch fork and a tail with horns protruding from his head, the little girl with her head spinning around in the Exorcist, is that how the Bible interprets demonic posession or is that how mankind interprets it?

There are a nuimber of ways to identify demonic posession but it has to be learned in order to seperate it from the common sin nature of man first so that at no time can an individual say "the devil made me do it". In most cases it is our sin nature by which we commit sin but there are other times there are demonic influences in the actions of a particular individual which are controlled by these unseen forces.

Im not going to say "Your wrong, you didnt see this in your dream", because everyone is entitled to their belief's. All i can say is that it was a dream, divinely inspired or otherwise, and we cannot just follow what dreams tell us. Despite the magnitude and relevence of it, its not unheard of to dream of loved ones who have passed on. My own grandfather has passed away, but ive not dreamed of him, and he dabbled in catholicism. So i respect that particular belief, i cant judge it because ive not experienced anything like that myself. 

Well based on my former past as an Atheist and coming form a religiously deprived background and that it took me over 10 years to finally get the message, I'll stand on my belief that it was devinely inspired and was clearly an intervention as my Grandfather gave me no indication whatsoever that he ahad any religious belief's nor was my family religious whatsoever.

So mankinds greatest and most reliable interpretations of the earth's history just happen too co-incide with descriptions of the bible? You dont think the early Christian Geologists thought twice about that?
Very little in science has actually been "proven". Theories are simply the best possible explanation of the evidence. Could you tell me why we can actually see plates according to your theories?

Well of course we can see them, the plates exist. The position isn't wheter or not plates exist, it's whether or not subduction exists, where is youyr evidence of one plate tucking in or sliding under another then getting brought back out by a volcanoe? or is it just an obvious assumption because we see both? Where do you see subduction happening?

You can read about subductions problems here http://www.expanding....org/page_4.htm

I can also take a verse out of the Bible's interpretation of tectonic rifting and spreading from Isaiah 42:5
5Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
Funny thing is Isaiah seemed to know that the earth was spread out and "that which cometh out of it" being water and new silicate growth.

Here is a more modern approach to the theory plus some other interesting science.

http://www.nealadams...orescience.html

http://www.continuit...net/clip00.html


Posted Image
This image of the San Andreas is a stress fracture in the surface and is not evidence of subduction at all.


Fair enough, no person has yet seen subjuction because it would be impossible to do so. Granted i was taught about plate tectonics by a geologist of 25 years experience, but im still open too new discoveries. Its supported by evidence, thats the difference. If you can find a new explanation which accounts for evidence then im entirely ready to listen to it.

Lord F

View Post

Right here... http://www.nealadams.com/nmu.html

all the evidence you will need to get started and the Author is a big time evolutionist not a creationist, I only really disagree with him where age dating is concerned, I don't believe in the "Evolutionary Time Scale"

Peace
CJ

#51 trilobyte

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Posted 04 July 2007 - 07:29 PM

Christopher_John,
I find the expanding earth theory very interesting.
When do you think it happened? In the days of Peleg? End of the flood?

#52 lordfaunswater

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Posted 05 July 2007 - 01:07 PM

Well that's your interpretation of it from the outside and your opinion reflects your position as having been one who has not studied scripture. What you have here is your inability to comprehend it as a whole. It doesn't conform to the vision in your mind, so you have to create an image in order to rationalize as well as justify your position to deny it from being factual, remember the second commandment? "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image". The Bible teaches us that God is incomprehensible, we will never obtain the level of knowledge of the Creator because we are creatures of His creation and therefore are subjected to a limitation of creaturely knowledge, this is why it takes mankind decades to solve problems or worse never fiund cures for things like the common cold or an even better example mankind's inability to not be able to "evolve" beyond the 10 commandments, as believer's we can, as non-believers you cannot. The only way to evolve from eternal separation from God to an eternal presence with Him is to accept that Christ died for your sins.


See that to me is just bible talk. I dont connect with what your saying on a level that doesnt involve theology.

The very fact that the bible teaches that God is incomprehensible presents a whole new vexing bunch of questions - and could actually be used to blind believers. If what you believe actually happened, we should be able to look at this and try to find answers with our human instinct - despite us failing to comprehend him.

Firstly and most importantly - Why? Why does god exist and where did he come from? If the big bang is considered to be impossible - nothing can only come from nothing, then by definition, god also doesnt exist. We dont see any influence of him over earthly matters. In fact all we have are thousands of human religions which talk of one god or many gods and our human intelligence or abilty to scrutinise these - which god created along with us. If we cant make any headroom with this question then how can we accept the events of the bible? What is the motivation and the ultimate reason to do so? Dont you see the irony of it? Gods only communication with mankind has been through religious scripture?
God being all powerful decides to create humans and the universe - why? God has chosen people who are destined to live in middle east - why? God allows free will but also kills those who use it in a manner displeasing to him - why?
Why cant god just reverse time and re-create everything? Why cant god just create new perfect humans and destroy the old ones? Why does god have to rely on humans to write down his will and evidence of his influence? Why do we have to feel guilty for the death of jesus? Why do animals commit sin?
I just dont see the bloody point of it at all. I dont see the point in not being able to ask or answer these questions.
If we were created by a god who is unlimitedly amazing, surely, we would still be living in a paradise?


Hehe... you didn't see evolution happen did you?...I mean you are taking it under 100% faith that life evolved from non-living tissue right? So how does that place you as a non-believer in a category of "Superiority" doesn't that equate you to the same position as me saying that Christianity is the one true religion?

Hopefully my point is getting across to you about how the Bible was formed, it wasn't written as one giant book it was many different books, writings, brought together, the Bible was written over a span of 1600 years and is not a book man could write if he would and the Bible is not a book man would write if he could. There is plenty of diversity in unity in the 66 books with over 40 authors.

I'm curious as to how you can make a claim of superstition as the Bible does not promote superstition or mysticism, I mean taking a look again at life evolving from nothing, I don't think science fiction can hit a higher level of ignorance when making the claim that Religion is nothing but myth and superstition due to not having an answer for the origin of life,but at the same time saying "life evolved from nothing" is the same thing as saying you don't have an answer for origins as well. So the evolution from nothing theory is "made up" in order to rationalize an existence without devine influence in order to maintain that the mind is superior to the Bible, nothing more.

If you had read the Gospels, you would have also known that both types of people wre being healed during the time of Christ, those that were identified as being demon posessed as well as those afflicted with epilepsy, so they clearly knew the difference between the two.

If I was afflicted by a demon which sometimes I do believe that we are all afflicted at different times, the difference being the believer can be controlled demonically but the non-believer can be fully posessed. Having now been bought by the blood of Christ I am owned by Him and demons cannot take possesion of a believer but they can control a believer, demons were defeated by Christ's death on the cross.

Unfortunately we live in a world with many of those who are afflicted with demons the fact that people believe in the Hollywood portrayal of demons allows a deception to take place which increases ones ability to look at demonic posession with ridicule, Satan and his little red costume with a ptch fork and a tail with horns protruding from his head, the little girl with her head spinning around in the Exorcist, is that how the Bible interprets demonic posession or is that how mankind interprets it?

There are a nuimber of ways to identify demonic posession but it has to be learned in order to seperate it from the common sin nature of man first so that at no time can an individual say "the devil made me do it". In most cases it is our sin nature by which we commit sin but there are other times there are demonic influences in the actions of a particular individual which are controlled by these unseen forces.


No because we have evidence to suggest evolution has happened, and people have witnessed it - that is actual scientific evolution and not creationist interpretations of it.
Superstition and mythology were prevalent at the time as they are now. How can you say that, before scientific development, god and other dieties were not used to explain things?
If eplilepsy is understood and mentioned in the bible, how are we to assume that demonic possession is not another similar neurological condition for which no knowledge was known? where are the distinctions between the two? How can we tell a demon's presence and not just man's natural nature? Do animals have demons?


This image of the San Andreas is a stress fracture in the surface and is not evidence of subduction at all.


I know, it was used as a means of visualising tectonic plates. Sorry if its context wasnt clear.

thanks for your links, im reading them now.

#53 trilobyte

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Posted 05 July 2007 - 03:32 PM

I had to chuckle a little bit when I read your last post.

In it you said...."The very fact that the bible teaches that God is incomprehensible presents a whole new vexing bunch of questions - and could actually be used to blind believers. If what you believe actually happened, we should be able to look at this and try to find answers with our human instinct - despite us failing to comprehend him. "

THEN...you went on and asked a lot of WHY questions...which shows God to be incomprehensible to you. It seems like your saying, I don't understand God, therefore he can't possibly exist.

#54 lordfaunswater

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Posted 06 July 2007 - 11:13 AM

I cant put into words what i mean.

You dont question god because you cant get answers, you believe in his existence and the fact that his only communication with mankind is through religion. If i dont know anything about the creator apart from what the bible tells us, how can we ever say that the events within are based on more than faith and dont have human influence? How do we know God isnt based on more than a book? You can say "dreams" or "visions" but the truth of the matter is they ARE dreams and VISIONS and they can make a huge amount of sense or can tell you too backflip off a bridge. Why dont you struggle with these things?

I dont see why we should have faith in the bible being convincing if we can pick holes in God himself and have huge century old debates about the earth and its life.
Like Tolstoy wrote in War and Peace:

"If god didnt exist we wouldnt be talking about him now"

Well if the discoveries in science havent been made surely there would be no debate either. But of cource, a convieniant plot device like the devil's design or influence on mankind can answer that. The Devil does seem to crop up whenever the bible is challenged.


I cant seem to get help with some of the illogical aspects of God's behaviour. Saying "god works in mysterious ways" isnt an answer - its just the verbal form of shrugging your shoulders.

#55 trilobyte

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Posted 06 July 2007 - 11:22 AM

I cant put into words what i mean.

You dont question god because you cant get answers, you believe in his existence and the fact that his only communication with mankind is through religion. If i dont know anything about the creator apart from what the bible tells us, how can we ever say that the events within are based on more than faith and dont have human influence? How do we know God isnt based on more than a book? You can say "dreams" or "visions" but the truth of the matter is they ARE dreams and VISIONS and they can make a huge amount of sense or can tell you too backflip off a bridge. Why dont you struggle with these things?

I dont see why we should have faith in the bible being convincing if we can pick holes in God himself and have huge century old debates about the earth and its life.
Like Tolstoy wrote in War and Peace:

"If god didnt exist we wouldnt be talking about him now"

Well if the discoveries in science havent been made surely there would be no debate either. But of cource, a convieniant plot device like the devil's design or influence on mankind can answer that. The Devil does seem to crop up whenever the bible is challenged.
I cant seem to get help with some of the illogical aspects of God's behaviour. Saying "god works in mysterious ways" isnt an answer - its just the verbal form of shrugging your shoulders.

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You...lordfaunswater...have the ability to pick holes in God? Or is it because you don't understand YOU only think you have picked holes in God?

Just for fun, present just one of these so-called holes...and I'll fill it in for you. That is, if you have an ear to hear.

#56 lordfaunswater

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Posted 06 July 2007 - 11:25 AM

You...lordfaunswater...have the ability to pick holes in God?  Or is it because you don't understand YOU only think you have picked holes in God?

Just for fun, present just one of these so-called holes...and I'll fill it in for you. That is, if you have an ear to hear.

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Here you go:

Firstly and most importantly - Why? Why does god exist and where did he come from? If the big bang is considered to be impossible - nothing can only come from nothing, then by definition, god also doesnt exist. We dont see any influence of him over earthly matters. In fact all we have are thousands of human religions which talk of one god or many gods and our human intelligence or abilty to scrutinise these - which god created along with us. If we cant make any headroom with this question then how can we accept the events of the bible? What is the motivation and the ultimate reason to do so? Dont you see the irony of it? Gods only communication with mankind has been through religious scripture?
God being all powerful decides to create humans and the universe - why? God has chosen people who are destined to live in middle east - why? God allows free will but also kills those who use it in a manner displeasing to him - why?
Why cant god just reverse time and re-create everything? Why cant god just create new perfect humans and destroy the old ones? Why does god have to rely on humans to write down his will and evidence of his influence? Why do we have to feel guilty for the death of jesus? Why do animals commit sin?
I just dont see the bloody point of it at all. I dont see the point in not being able to ask or answer these questions.
If we were created by a god who is unlimitedly amazing, surely, we would still be living in a paradise?



#57 trilobyte

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Posted 06 July 2007 - 11:32 AM

Firstly and most importantly - Why? Why does god exist and where did he come from? If the big bang is considered to be impossible - nothing can only come from nothing, then by definition, god also doesnt exist.


That's an easy one to answer. read on...

I am He who exist.
God is self existent being who posseses intrinsically the power of being, not self created. He has his being of himself, and has no dependence upon any other.

Considering the law of noncontradiction states the concept of self creation violates the law. For something to create itself it must have the ability to be and not to be at the same time. It is impossible to be before, it is. Hence the contradiction.
It is then easy to reach a conclusion that God is intrinsic due to his very nature. It is by this nature that God is distinguished or identified. He is who exist. Never did He not exist and therfore no need for a creator as some suggest.

God is without termination or finitude, He is free from the succession of time, He recognized a succession of events, but all past present and future events are equally vivid to Him. We as humans are currently “trapped” in our dimension. Only our present and our memories of the past are vivid to us.
People often try to limit Gods intrinsic values to their human fallible finite concepts. They rationalize and correctly realize the materials in the universe needed a creator considering it is a non-thinking “thing”. The big bang couldn’t think. It couldn’t create order from chaos. Nature can’t design. As we all know, God can think, nature can’t. It is the self existent God who has created the things of nature.

(ref: Ryrie, Sproul, Henry)


#58 trilobyte

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Posted 06 July 2007 - 11:42 AM

We dont see any influence of him over earthly matters.


AMO 9:14 I will bring back my exiled people Israel; they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them. They will plant vineyards and drink their wine; they will make gardens and eat their fruit.

AMO 9:15 I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them," says the LORD your God.

EZE 37:21 and say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land.

Not to mention HOS 3:5, ISA 27:6, EZE 38:8

Guess what began in 1948? Seems like God and His prophecy has influence over this earthly matter.

#59 trilobyte

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Posted 06 July 2007 - 11:52 AM

Why cant god just reverse time and re-create everything?


Check this out...

As a result of the fall in the Garden..
ROM 8:19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed.

ROM 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope

ROM 8:21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

ROM 8:22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.


So, What's in store?

REV 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

You see, God may not reverse time, but he will...using your term..."re-create everything"

#60 trilobyte

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Posted 06 July 2007 - 11:55 AM

Why cant god just create new perfect humans and destroy the old ones?


He sort of did. Have you not read;
GEN 6:13 So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.

Now because god didn't do it the way you thought he should of...does that make him a bad guy?




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