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#21 de_skudd

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 12:54 PM

One of the reasons my poor brother Adam feels so persecuted when he goes on freeratio.org is because there are so few quality fundamentalists who are willing to stick around and debate with us over there.  So when a creationist of his caliber shows up, the conversation tends to get very lively, and Adam ends up feeling attacked.  Maybe if two of you went over there, you'd be able to give each other moral support. :mellow:

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And just another point to note… It isn’t that Adam is or is not a “quality fundamentalists” or of high “caliber” for that matter (though, from what I’ve read, I’d agree with your assessment), it’s that he has a better message, with a stronger foundational understanding, that based on absolute truth.

And, aside from the fact that he may “feel” attacked, his fundamental Biblical knowledge tells him that it isn’t him who’s being attacked, but the one who sent him. As Christians, we understand that. But we also understand that when logic fails our antagonists, and they retreat to strategies to twist or hide from those truths, we can move on to other ground to reason with other believers, and non-believers alike….

#22 ikester7579

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 01:37 PM

I don't regret going to FRDB for one minute and I completely agree with de_skudd. When I found that link in Ikester's signature I was amazed at how accurately it pinned the evolution/creation debate. I've read it like three times. :rolleyes:

Judy, you have to pick your battles and when groups of atheists think its just good intellectual exercise to run off topic and pull the Christian in every which direction with no regard for their own forum rules, it gets old. You read that thread I participated in the other day. One of the head Mods (the grandma) and one of the most loyal members had no regard for their own rules just a consorted effort to pull me into their endless confusion.

Seriously guys, I just mentioned Voltaire to a guy who claimed that his duty was to destroy fundamentalist Christianity and the Grandma Agnostic, I mentioned, was bent on giving me a history lesson to show me how smart she was. :rolleyes: Oh, and then she demanded that I answer ALL her points. What a time waster.

I've actually noticed that the way conversations are managed here is refreshing and I have had my hand slapped several times publicly and privately by Ikester. I think he's actually harder on the Christians here than the atheists.

Besides, have you noticed that there are several Atheist/agnostics that participate here? I was actually surprised and even refreshed to see that I was in several dialogues where the Atheists outnumbered the Christians. It was nice because I realized that the owners here walk the talk and make this a place for real rational debate not just "rational debate" in name only.

Adam

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The article you speak of in my sig was actually one huge article written by me for the creation wiki. Because it delt with two subjects, it eventually got split. Me being new at editing for wikis, I did not think they would allow the other subject so I kept it together. But here is a link to the other half:
http://creationwiki...._debate_tactics

Those two pages get constant praise because so many creationists get badgered by atheist-evolutionists all the time for even bring up the creation subject. So pointing out a reference they can come back to has helped. I'm going to put the split away part as part two in my sig.

#23 de_skudd

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Posted 05 January 2009 - 11:27 AM

The article you speak of in my sig was actually one huge article written by me for the creation wiki. Because it delt with two subjects, it eventually got split. Me being new at editing for wikis, I did not think they would allow the other subject so I kept it together. But here is a link to the other half:
http://creationwiki...._debate_tactics

Those two pages get constant praise because so many creationists get badgered by atheist-evolutionists all the time for even bring up the creation subject. So pointing out a reference they can come back to has helped. I'm going to put the split away part as part two in my sig.

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hey Ikester,

Not to take away from your writing, but you clearly verbalized what many were seeing and feeling. You did go into great detail, and yet were succinct, so many KUDO's my friend!

I'll check that other link now :rolleyes:

#24 CTD

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 06:59 AM

hey Ikester,

Not to take away from your writing, but you clearly verbalized what many were seeing and feeling. You did go into great detail, and yet were succinct, so many KUDO's my friend!

I'll check that other link now  :(

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Shoot, the second one may be even better.

Both are excellent resources for anyone with an interest in evolutionology.

#25 Adam Nagy

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 05:40 PM

Shoot, the second one may be even better.

Both are excellent resources for anyone with an interest in evolutionology.

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Maybe in a few years there will be evolutionologists kind of like paleontologists who study the fossilized remains of extinct animals. We should consider starting a branch of study called evolutionology, if there isn't one already. There is a web-site already set up but it looks inactive or something:

http://www.evolutionology.com/

I think it would create some confusion but I think being an evolutionologist would be a cool thing. People would say; "So you're an evolutionist?" and I would say; "No, I'm an evolutionologist, I study the the carnage of bad logic and circular reasoning that is left over from the dead theory of evolution."

#26 de_skudd

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 06:40 PM

Maybe in a few years there will be evolutionologists kind of like paleontologists who study the fossilized remains of extinct animals. We should consider starting a branch of study called evolutionology, if there isn't one already. There is a web-site already set up but it looks inactive or something:

http://www.evolutionology.com/

I think it would create some confusion but I think being an evolutionologist would be a cool thing. People would say; "So you're an evolutionist?" and I would say; "No, I'm an evolutionologist, I study the the carnage of bad logic and circular reasoning that is left over from the dead theory of evolution."

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:huh:

Evolutionology: The study of the fossilized remains of extinct evolutionists….

#27 de_skudd

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 05:18 AM

Shoot, the second one may be even better.

Both are excellent resources for anyone with an interest in evolutionology.

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Doesn't that lead directly to evolu-theisim? :mellow:

#28 CTD

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 11:53 AM

Evolutionology, the study of evolutionism and evolutionists, is fairly broad because it must encompass a very wide range of beliefs. It is my opinion that over-specialization would be counter-productive; not only are there many beliefs, they're held pretty loosely. This in turn, is because anything-but-the-truthism is so common. Also, there's a lot of ignorance and non-conformity involved. Many an evolutionist has no clue what Darwin proposed or what constitutes orthodoxy (beyond opposition to creationism and/or Christianity, which also they generally know little about).

Evolu-theisim can be a fascinating field of study, to be sure. But there's plenty of overlap with scientism. Also, the "universe is god" and "earth is god" crowds seem to masquerade as "there is no god (which can be openly confessed)" types. There's a lot of overlap, and a lot of deception. Things aren't always what they might appear to be. Some forms of Satanism are considered and claim to be atheistic. At first, this didn't make sense to me.

Although I've only dabbled with linkology, this science can be revealing. The key is to remember the one-way nature of the statement being made. Site x (I decided against including the real example) has a link to the Richard Dawkins OUT Campaign, in an approving context. This does not say anything about whether or not Dawkins' Out Campaign reciprocates. Anyhow, a lot can be learned by studying which sites are linked to as "friends". Promises to be time-consuming, especially when a subject takes a broad, shotgun approach to anything-but-the-truthism.

#29 de_skudd

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 12:07 PM

"Especially when a subject takes a broad, shotgun approach to anything-but-the-truthism." :mellow:

#30 CTD

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 12:58 PM

"Especially when a subject takes a broad, shotgun approach to anything-but-the-truthism."  :mellow:

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Yes it's funny. But they really do. My best example has some pretty filthy language. I don't see such on this page, but following their links would be risky.

http://positiveatheism.org/tocweb1.htm

This next linkology specimen is probably more efficient for demonstrating anything-but-the-truthism. They link to the "World Pantheist Movement".

http://www.infidels....ernational.html

(and the last letters on the page are not "CTD" :D )

#31 ikester7579

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 05:17 PM

hey Ikester,

Not to take away from your writing, but you clearly verbalized what many were seeing and feeling. You did go into great detail, and yet were succinct, so many KUDO's my friend!

I'll check that other link now  :mellow:

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Well after all the editing by others, the page went kinda soft. Undoing what someone else says is like pulling eye teeth and starting a world war.

#32 de_skudd

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 06:09 AM

Yes it's funny. But they really do. My best example has some pretty filthy language. I don't see such on this page, but following their links would be risky.

http://positiveatheism.org/tocweb1.htm

This next linkology specimen is probably more efficient for demonstrating anything-but-the-truthism. They link to the "World Pantheist Movement".

http://www.infidels....ernational.html

(and the last letters on the page are not "CTD"  <_< )

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I have found that “Positive Atheism” is just and excuse for stealing Christian morals (and ripping the truth out of them), and to distance them selves from the moral conundrum that atheism is.

I know a guy who is working on a paper that deals with the religion of atheism. If I can dig it up, I’ll post it here (with his permission of course)…

#33 Ron

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Posted 27 June 2009 - 11:26 AM

I have found that “Positive Atheism” is just and excuse for stealing Christian morals (and ripping the truth out of them), and to distance them selves from the moral conundrum that atheism is.

I know a guy who is working on a paper that deals with the religion of atheism. If I can dig it up, I’ll post it here (with his permission of course)…

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Why, I wonder, should an atheist be moral in the first place? Because it makes them feel good? Then what are feelings? Aren’t feelings nothing more than a perceived emotional state, an instinctive awareness or presentiment of something, or a particular impression, appearance, effect, and atmosphere sensed from something?

Aren’t these all metaphysical items that the atheist is dragging into a materialists world view?

If the atheist is a materialist, who doesn’t believe in a metaphysical God, and believes the strong should survive for evolution to work, then why do they accept metaphysical altruistic love, logic and rationale,or even things perceived as being beautiful (etc…) and "general morality" as guides in life?

Why not “Live and let die”?

#34 Ron

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Posted 27 June 2009 - 11:52 AM

The article you speak of in my sig was actually one huge article written by me for the creation wiki. Because it delt with two subjects, it eventually got split. Me being new at editing for wikis, I did not think they would allow the other subject so I kept it together. But here is a link to the other half:
http://creationwiki...._debate_tactics

Those two pages get constant praise because so many creationists get badgered by atheist-evolutionists all the time for even bring up the creation subject. So pointing out a reference they can come back to has helped. I'm going to put the split away part as part two in my sig.

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I wonder :o .................. Would I get in trouble here if I started posting these tactics (in quotation marks) right behind atheists using them on this forum?

Example (name changed to protect the non-innocent):

You weren't banned, you were given a time out.  Stop fibbing.  Why not start a new account, if you really did forget your password?  Or are you fibbing about that too?

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!!Alert!!Imply what was not meant or said !!Alert!!

“To keep a creationist from making a point that the evolutionist cannot refute. The anticreationist will often resort to "implying" that the creationist said some thing that was not said. And then harp on it to throw off the point that was made by the creationist. To go around this one, the creationist just needs to ask the anticreationist for the post in which their implication about what was said, can be confirmed. When the post cannot be supplied, point this out, and move the thread forward in subject being debated.”





Or would this just be considered pointing out the obvious, and looked upon as distasteful?

#35 Arch

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Posted 27 June 2009 - 08:05 PM

What I really love is how all the believers here think they've got the atheist all figured out, when by your comments you clearly don't. Here's a sample just to demonstrate.

So, why then, does the atheist even bother to debate the metaphysical if he doesn’t even believe it exists? Why do the atheists even bother to come to every theist site to argue? Could there be something to the metaphysical argument that has the atheist all worked up?


1. Why debate about what doesn't exist? So if someone is prancing around claiming the characters from Lord of the rings all exist, you think another shouldn't pull them aside and correct them?

2. Why come to this kind of site? Personally, I like debate. And the closer someone is to a debated topic, the more interesting the debate.

3. Why come to this kind of site? I return the question to any Christian who debates on an evolutionist site. If you don't believe, why go there? I imagine your reasons will be similar to my own.

Why does the atheist mind use the word truth, after all it’s just an arbitrary word that bends to the will of the user?


No, good and bad are arbitrary words, however within context they still have meaning and are worth using for clarity. 'Truths' do exist.

why does the atheist even use the word mind...


Out of habit more than anything. Remember, many of us have had an upbringing where 'mind' was exclusive from 'brain'. I now use the two words interchangeably.

With the elitist attitudes shown by the atheists, one wonders why they even bother to borrow all these ideals from the theists to explain their lives


I don't think atheists are more elite than any other form of belief/non-belief I've heard. As to why we would borrow ideas...just because you don't believe in the cause of an idea doesn't mean the idea itself can't be useful.

I'm amazed how they are drawn to Christians like moths to a flame


Opposites attract Adam ;) Can not the same be said of Christians? Why are you all here if not because you are drawn by your opposite?

Except they think about God more with hate and not love. Hate consumes you. It's what drives them to defend their theory, as they feel the need to go to every Christian forum they can find because evolution is their only weapon and justification for not believng in God or His creation. If that were removed, they would have no justification for not believing and they would come face to face with having to ponder God.


Where to begin :lol:

1. It's true that hate consumes you. I've been down that path, and I imagine many atheists have. Some of us grow up and realise there is nothing there to hate. Personally, I was still agnostic when I made my peace with God; then became an atheist. I agree a lot of atheists do hold a lot of hate, however there is no hate from me.

2. Hate does not drive the theory. Evidence does.

3. Trust me, evolution is the least of our reasons for not believing in God. Removing evolution would not force one to ponder God.

4. Again there is this idea that evolutionist seek out Christian sites but no mention of the reverse, as if it doesn't happen. I decided to join this forum because it went against my beliefs and I felt I could learn more here than at another site that already supports my views. Hate had nothing to do with it. It was a desire to understand.

I spend a lot of time lurking on atheist sites, just listening in. Just to see the thought processes.


At least de_skudd will admit it is not all a one way street :D

If 10 people from here showed up at the forum you speak of, do you think they would straighten up? Nope. And it's the very reason we won't go.


Would it make any difference if an atheist decided to go with you? Obviously I can't support many of your arguments, but I can support your integrity.

Because I've found less rationality and more “close mindedness” at most every atheist site


Funny that, I feel the same way when I visit a Christian site. I'm starting to think it's more bias than fact :)

I have found that “Positive Atheism” is just and excuse for stealing Christian morals


What's wrong with that? Most of them are good morals.

Sorry for such a long post, but as I've said before I'm here to understand other's beliefs. I think if you want to understand mine you'll need a more accurate description of what they are.

Regards,

Arch.

#36 ikester7579

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Posted 27 June 2009 - 08:07 PM

Ron,

It should be only the people who are no longer members. This can cause other problems that can be considered our own doing.

#37 Arch

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Posted 27 June 2009 - 08:14 PM

Why, I wonder, should an atheist be moral in the first place? Because it makes them feel good?

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Bingo :lol:

Then what are feelings? Aren’t feelings nothing more than a perceived emotional state, an instinctive awareness or presentiment of something, or a particular impression, appearance, effect, and atmosphere sensed from something?

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Got lost in all the wordiness there Ron. Feelings are an emotional state used by the body to promote good health. Example:
I'm hungry, I eat, I feel good.
I wish for the preservation of our species. I create laws to assist that. I feel good.

Aren’t these all metaphysical items that the atheist is dragging into a materialists world view?

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No, they can all be explained naturally.

If the atheist is a materialist, who doesn’t believe in a metaphysical God, and believes the strong should survive for evolution to work, then why do they accept metaphysical altruistic love, logic and rationale,or even things perceived as being beautiful (etc…) and "general morality" as guides in life?

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Love aids in reproduction, and feels good.
Logic stands regardless of God, I'm not sure of your point here?
Beauty aids in many things, but often reproduction. Ever notice how all parents think their child is the most beautiful thing they've ever seen? This promotes a desire to look after it.
Morality promotes life. Promoting a positive life makes it more enjoyable for ones self and others.

Why not “Live and let die”?

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Sometimes this is indeed for the best.

Regards,

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#38 Arch

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Posted 27 June 2009 - 08:16 PM

Edit: ikester7579 to fix quote boxes. Arch you use a - where a = should have been.


Blah, happens often. They're right next to each other on the keyboard ;)

Thanks for the fix up :lol:

Regards,

Arch.

#39 Ron

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Posted 28 June 2009 - 09:34 AM

Ron,

It should be only the people who are no longer members. This can cause other problems that can be considered our own doing.

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Hrumf (stomps around in a pout), ok Ikester, it was just a thought :)




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