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Aborted Fetuses?


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#1 Guest_Markster106_*

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 12:52 AM

In another thread about being saved after death, Fred Williams said:

"This thread is a continuation of the discussion in the thread “Heaven And Hell, What does the Bible say happens when you die?”, which originally dealt with the doctrine of soul sleep but diverged into IMO the heretical belief that people who have never heard the gospel can become saved after death."

Does this mean aborted fetuses and infants who die young will burn in hell for eternity? This is surely something a fair and loving God would do, correct? From a Christian standpoint, fetuses are 100% human and carry original sin, and Fred says that people who have never heard the gospel will not be saved.

#2 ikester7579

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 01:48 AM

In another thread about being saved after death, Fred Williams said:

"This thread is a continuation of the discussion in the thread “Heaven And Hell, What does the Bible say happens when you die?”, which originally dealt with the doctrine of soul sleep but diverged into IMO the heretical belief that people who have never heard the gospel can become saved after death."

Does this mean aborted fetuses and infants who die young will burn in hell for eternity? This is surely something a fair and loving God would do, correct? From a Christian standpoint, fetuses are 100% human and carry original sin, and Fred says that people who have never heard the gospel will not be saved.

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There is also what's called the age of innocence. A child unaware, or unable to make such decisions is covered by this. For a person who does not know he is sinning cannot be judged of a sin they knew not of.

But, the shedding of innocent blood requires judgement if not repented of. Very few people repent and ask forgiveness of abortion, But God will forgive if aksed to do so. But this is what he says about abortion.

Exodus 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

Innocent blood is a reference to children. The only time the blood of children is not innocent is when their parents commit sins that curse their generations, which includes their offspring. This is why God commanded every so often that everyone be killed. It was because their sin cursed all of their generations and their was no hope for them to change.

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Isaiah 59:1 Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:

2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

3 For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness.

4 None calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity.

5 They hatch cockatrice' eggs, and weave the spider's web: he that eateth of their eggs dieth, and that which is crushed breaketh out into a viper.

6 Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works: their works are works of iniquity, and the act of violence is in their hands.

7 Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction are in their paths.

Cursed generations:
Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

You will find that when God commended that those be killed that their children be killed as well. They fell under this curse iniquity unto the third and forth generation. There was no hope for them, and their evil in what they do would have spread unto others if they were allowed to continue.

Is it fair to kill them anyway? A better question would be: Is it fair to allow them to live to that others can share in their evil and then share in their fate for their evil? Which would have been even more people to suffer in hell. Is that fair?

Example: If the evil cursed people are removed before they can spread more of their evil. Then only a few suffer for all eternity in the lake of fire. But if they are allowed to continued, is it fair that a 1000 times more will now suffer the same fate?

You see, by removing a few, God saved many. So which is better? We all die, and as I said, their choice of evil left them with no hope.

#3 Guest_Markster106_*

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 01:55 AM

So are you saying that aborted fetuses automatically go to heaven? Isn't that unfair? They didn't have to suffer the trials on earth yet they get a free pass to eternal happiness in heaven.

Also, how can you pass on sin to your children, especially when the sin was not even committed before they were born? How is it even fair to be born with sin, you have done nothing wrong.

#4 ikester7579

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 02:13 AM

So are you saying that aborted fetuses automatically go to heaven? Isn't that unfair? They didn't have to suffer the trials on earth yet they get a free pass to eternal happiness in heaven.


Would you rather they go to hell because they were aborted, and had no chance to make a choice?

Also, how can you pass on sin to your children, especially when the sin was not even committed before they were born? How is it even fair to be born with sin, you have done nothing wrong.

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You have to go all the way back to Adam and Eve. They were the ones who messed it up for the rest of us.

Do you know why Christ had to be born of a virgin, while everyone else is born the other way?

Christ cannot be the Son of God but yet be born by the "seed" of man. And because God is spiritual, The Holy "Spirit" had to place the seed of God into Mary. There was no s@x involved. It was like a spiritual operation. It was done in the same way that a person might be healed.

When someone is healed, or has a spiritual experience from God. The Holy spirit comes upon them. In other words, it fills them. And the person that this happens to can actually feel this happening. And for each person it is different. It's almost like a renewing of your body. You feel like you have never felt before. It is probably the one experience a Christian can have that they cannot put into words so that a person who has never experienced this could understand. It's impossible unless you experience it yourself.

This is also called being baptized in the Holy Spirit. Because like water, it is a feeling that flows all over you.

#5 Guest_Markster106_*

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 02:20 AM

Would you rather they go to hell because they were aborted, and had no chance to make a choice?
You have to go all the way back to Adam and Eve. They were the ones who messed it up for the rest of us.

Do you know why Christ had to be born of a virgin, while everyone else is born the other way?

Christ cannot be the Son of God but yet be born by the "seed" of man. And because God is spiritual, The Holy "Spirit" had to place the seed of God into Mary. There was no s@x involved. It was like a spiritual operation. It was done in the same way that a person might be healed.

When someone is healed, or has a spiritual experience from God. The Holy spirit comes upon them. In other words, it fills them. And the person that this happens to can actually feel this happening. And for each person it is different. It's almost like a renewing of your body. You feel like you have never felt before. It is probably the one experience a Christian can have that they cannot put into words so that a person who has never experienced this could understand. It's impossible unless you experience it yourself.

This is also called being baptized in the Holy Spirit. Because like water, it is a feeling that flows all over you.

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Well that's what I'm saying, neither heaven or hell would be a just destination for the fetuses.

And I don't see at all how original sin is just. Why be punished for something your greatx100-grandfather did?

Well didn't Mary have original sin also? But I did read something about how original sin is passed on through the male. But if you are going to bypass s@x, then why not bypass the whole birth process altogether? Why didn't God just materialize Jesus? That would be the most efficient way, no?

#6 ikester7579

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 02:52 AM

Well that's what I'm saying, neither heaven or hell would be a just destination for the fetuses.


Why would you worry about where fetuses go anyway? Are not fetuses classified as just growing tissue and not human as abortion clinics will tell you?

Fetus: The product of conception starting from completion of embryonic development (at 8 completed weeks after fertilization) until birth or abortion.

Notice the word human or baby is omitted.

Is the term unborn baby, or human to much for you to say?

And I don't see at all how original sin is just. Why be punished for something your greatx100-grandfather did?


I guess you did not see the third and forth generation deal?

Well didn't Mary have original sin also? But I did read something about how original sin is passed on through the male. But if you are going to bypass s@x, then why not bypass the whole birth process altogether? Why didn't God just materialize Jesus? That would be the most efficient way, no?

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Since you are intent on using the word fetus, and even though you say you are 15. I think it is time you learn what an abotion looks like. Now if you have a weak stomach, I suggest you don't click on the link. But what you are going to see here are aborted fetuses (as you call them) that are developed enough to live on there own but were aborted anyway.

Some were much younger. But still you need to see this.

http://www.100aborti...bortion_Photos/

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 03:11 AM

Why would you worry about where fetuses go anyway? Are not fetuses classified as just growing tissue and not human as abortion clinics will tell you?

Fetus: The product of conception starting from completion of embryonic development (at 8 completed weeks after fertilization) until birth or abortion.

Notice the word human or baby is omitted.

Is the term unborn baby, or human to much for you to say?
I guess you did not see the third and forth generation deal?
Since you are intent on using the word fetus, and even though you say you are 15. I think it is time you learn what an abotion looks like. Now if you have a weak stomach, I suggest you don't click on the link. But what you are going to see here are aborted fetuses (as you call them) that are developed enough to live on there own but were aborted anyway.

Some were much younger. But still you need to see this.

http://www.100aborti...bortion_Photos/

View Post


Honestly if it were up to me, I would probably roll back the legal abortion "deadline" to the end of the first trimester. And the website isn't loading for me, but yes I've seen what aborted fetuses look like and I've watched the silent scream.

And I didn't use the word fetus to degrade the baby growing inside the mother or anything like that.

#8 ikester7579

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 04:45 AM

Honestly if it were up to me, I would probably roll back the legal abortion "deadline" to the end of the first trimester. And the website isn't loading for me, but yes I've seen what aborted fetuses look like and I've watched the silent scream.

And I didn't use the word fetus to degrade the baby growing inside the mother or anything like that.

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The page requires flash which you can download here: http://www.adobe.com...=ShockwaveFlash

The home page with no flash is here: http://www.100aborti...ion_Statistics/

The pictures at this site are like none you have ever seen. Most sites will not show babies aborted up to the 9th month. And most people do not know that this goes on.

Also, did you know that Planned Parenthood condones child molestation?

There are recorded phone calls of where girls posing as under age victims call. They tell their name and age (under age), and the age of their botfriend (much older adult). Planned Parenthood has been recorded giving advice on how to get an abortion wo where the man won't get into trouble for having s@x with under age girls. There was even a recorded case of where child incest was covered up. With the same people on more than one occasion. Where the Father was molesting his daughter and she get preganent twice. And both times they were told to leave the state and have the abortion, and not reveal their relation to one another.

You know, abortion is sick enough. But this is even sicker.

http://www.plannedpa...oodexposed.com/

Women are killed everyday by abortions.

http://www.lifedynam...o-choice_Women/

Women are injured everyday by abortions.

http://www.lifedynam...bortion_Injury/

Baby parts sold on black market for research. The babies are gutted like fish shortly after abortion takes place.

http://www.lifedynam.../BabyParts2.cfm

Lawyers are now suing:

http://www.abortioninjury.com/

Abortion to control race and promote racism:



And shocking abortion phone calls of Planned Parenthood breaking known laws:

http://tapes.yeson73.net/

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 05:18 AM

So are you saying that aborted fetuses automatically go to heaven? Isn't that unfair? They didn't have to suffer the trials on earth yet they get a free pass to eternal happiness in heaven.


1st, no one earns their way into heaven by suffering trials. Salvation is by Faith alone in Christ alone, and since its based on Faith, which is a non-meritorious system of perception, its absolutely fair.


Also, how can you pass on sin to your children, especially when the sin was not even committed before they were born? How is it even fair to be born with sin, you have done nothing wrong.


The sin nature is passed genetically from the father to the mother at the point of conception. Adam became a sinner when he sinned, and part of his judgement was genetic corruption. Sin entered the world through Adam:

ROM 5:12 ¶ Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

When God creates life, the child also receives Adams condemnation.

ROM 5:16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
ROM 5:17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
ROM 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
ROM 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

So yes, you did nothing to receive God's condemnation, but you are condemned. That's why you cannot do anything to earn salvation. You did nothing to get where you are at, and you can't do anything to get out.

All you can do is believe in Christ and accept him as your personal savior.

Do you understand that you are a sinner, and that Christ is the only solution to your sin problem? God in his grace provided it, and he had you personally in mind when he sent his son to the cross to pay the price for your sins.

Terry

#10 Fred Williams

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 09:02 PM

In another thread about being saved after death, Fred Williams said:

"This thread is a continuation of the discussion in the thread “Heaven And Hell, What does the Bible say happens when you die?”, which originally dealt with the doctrine of soul sleep but diverged into IMO the heretical belief that people who have never heard the gospel can become saved after death."

Does this mean aborted fetuses and infants who die young will burn in hell for eternity? This is surely something a fair and loving God would do, correct? From a Christian standpoint, fetuses are 100% human and carry original sin, and Fred says that people who have never heard the gospel will not be saved.

View Post


Mark, I really wish you would be more careful with what you read instead of your hit and miss scanning of posts. I have been preaching AGAINST what you attribute to me for years on this forum, and most recently in the recent thread you cited! People who never hear the gospel have the law written on their hearts and their conscience will condemn them or excuse them (Rom 2:15). I am a big proponent that there will be post-crucifixion people in heaven who never heard of Jesus, provided they believed in the one true God as revealed by His invisible attributes (Romans 1, Psalms 19:1, 97:6). The sheep herder in India who never heard the gospel before he died, but saw by the creation that there must be a Creator, who knew of the nonsense of 100 million gods and rejected his bovine as his god, who yearned in his heart to know the true Creator and who called out for his forgiveness, such a person who “believes” will be saved (Romans 2, Gen 15:6, Heb 11:6, etc).

The point you raise about aborted babies is a good one as far as pre-destination goes, because it serves to show just how revolting Calvinism is. Unfortunately there are Christians who believe that these babies were chosen before they were conceived to be destroyed in the womb and sent to hell. It’s one of those dirty little secrets of Calvinism that you never hear preached from the Calvinist’ pulpit.

I think ikester already touched on what is called “the age of accountability”. The Bible doesn’t really say what that age is, but Paul alludes to the knowledge of the law that does us in: Rom 7:9-10 “I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died .” Obviously he must be speaking about his spiritual state, not his physical state. Youngsters who die without the law are spiritually alive, and hence it only makes sense to conclude they will be with God.

Fred

Ps 19:1-2

The heavens declare the glory of God;
And the firmament shows His handiwork.
Day unto day utters speech,
And night unto night reveals knowledge.


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Posted 27 March 2008 - 04:48 AM

There is also what's called the age of innocence. A child unaware, or unable to make such decisions is covered by this. For a person who does not know he is sinning cannot be judged of a sin they knew not of.

But, the shedding of innocent blood requires judgement if not repented of. Very few people repent and ask forgiveness of abortion, But God will forgive if aksed to do so. But this is what he says about abortion.

Exodus 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

Innocent blood is a reference to children. The only time the blood of children is not innocent is when their parents commit sins that curse their generations, which includes their offspring. This is why God commanded every so often that everyone be killed. It was because their sin cursed all of their generations and their was no hope for them to change.

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Isaiah 59:1 Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:

2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

3 For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness.

4 None calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity.

5 They hatch cockatrice' eggs, and weave the spider's web: he that eateth of their eggs dieth, and that which is crushed breaketh out into a viper.

6 Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works: their works are works of iniquity, and the act of violence is in their hands.

7 Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction are in their paths.

Cursed generations:
Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

You will find that when God commended that those be killed that their children be killed as well. They fell under this curse iniquity unto the third and forth generation. There was no hope for them, and their evil in what they do would have spread unto others if they were allowed to continue.

Is it fair to kill them anyway? A better question would be: Is it fair to allow them to live to that others can share in their evil and then share in their fate for their evil? Which would have been even more people to suffer in hell. Is that fair?

Example: If the evil cursed people are removed before they can spread more of their evil. Then only a few suffer for all eternity in the lake of fire. But if they are allowed to continued, is it fair that a 1000 times more will now suffer the same fate?

You see, by removing a few, God saved many. So which is better? We all die, and as I said, their choice of evil left them with no hope.

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can you put and age on the age of inocence? it could be important

#12 ikester7579

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Posted 27 March 2008 - 05:47 AM

can you put and age on the age of inocence?  it could be important

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I have not researched it, but I hear it's the age of 13. Or when they become self aware of God, and have enough understanding to make an informed choice. Also those who cannot descern between their right hand and left hand.

Right hand = what's good.
Left habd = what's evil.

If a child has no understanding of this, then they cannot make an informed choice.

There is a term we use as we get older. When we were young we were care-free. What makes us care-free is not understanding the difference between good and evil. Therefore, we had little to fear because our parents were our protectors.

#13 OriginMan

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 07:22 AM

There is also what's called the age of innocence. A child unaware, or unable to make such decisions is covered by this. For a person who does not know he is sinning cannot be judged of a sin they knew not of.


Where is that in Scripture ?

All that is known is that ALL Men fall short of the glory of God.

Perhaps it is meant that NOT ALL men are meant to go to heaven.

God's Elect and the Book of Life.

Romans 8:33
Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect?



(1)So are you saying that aborted fetuses automatically go to heaven? Isn't that unfair? They didn't have to suffer the trials on earth yet they get a free pass to eternal happiness in heaven.

(2)Also, how can you pass on sin to your children, especially when the sin was not even committed before they were born? How is it even fair to be born with sin, you have done nothing wrong.


1:
Who are you to say what is fair and what is not fair of the workings of the Almighty ? Is not God Just ?
Romans 9

2:

Romans 8:9
But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.




I have not researched it, but I hear it's the age of 13.


I know of no Age of innocence mentioned in scripture. Not saying there is not, but I know of none.


Concerning our children:

Romans 9

7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” (I)8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”


(I): Just as a child can be born in the flesh, so can they be born in the Spirit.


11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),


As we can see, this is no knew and uncovered issue. There is either Good or Evil, no grey area. Children not born with the Spirit of God, passed down by their God Fearing Parents, are indeed NOT OF THE SPIRIT and have NO inheritance in the kingdom of Heaven.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses,(I) “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then (II)it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh,(III) “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? [/B]


(I):
Clearly God is talking about having mercy on WHOMEVER He wishes. Are we to think Wordly and say to ourselves He is not talking about children. WHOMEVER means EVERYONE. Child to Adult.

(II):
Again we see here that it is not of our own works, but of the Will of God. We can do nothing, concerning our salvation. There is no CHOICE in the matter made by our own accord. Only to those who are called according to God.

(III)
One more time we see that God has purposely raised a non-believer to go straight to hell. Are we to think worldy again and assume that the Pharaoh was not a non-believer as an infant ? Of course he was.


This is my interpertation of the scriptures.

I believe that there is a Book of Life, "Philippians 4:3".

Are we to think wordly as in God didn't know something. As if God did not know from the beginning who would be called and who would not ? Is God not the ALL KNOWING ?
It is of our own fleshly thinking that keeps us from thinking that babies go to hell. I say that the scriptures put it plainly.

I also believe that according to the Scriptures that children born of Christians are born with the redemption of Christs Blood. Therefore they are to be baptized immediately, so they may recieve the mark of Christ and enter the Covenant Family. Not the Book of Life, for that is already been written, but just as our children can be born unto their fathers iniquitiy, they too can also be born unto their fathers mercy given by God. In the case of the latter, they are indeed assumed Christian. If later in life the child is shown to a non-believer, than asurdely the child's name was not written in the Book of Life, but he has been raised up as the Pharaoh was also.

With love and humility,

Your brother in Christ.

#14 Fred Williams

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 08:45 AM

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A couple threads are overlapping on the same topic, so I've answered this in the following thread:

http://www.evolution...indpost&p=17911

Fred




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