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Christian Music. What Do You Think?


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#41 ikester7579

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Posted 04 October 2008 - 02:14 PM

Isaac,

You asked me for examples of how evil people, evil practices, or evil circumstances had been used by God to bring people closer to Him. I gave the examples. If you don't like my examples, I'm sorry.


We are talking about church right? I don't see a church of Satan bringing people to Christ. I don't see AC/DC concerts bring people to Christ. And I don't see AC/DC bands playing in churches either.

Those are evil examples.

I refuse to continue to waste time chasing down this rabbit trail of one's personal preference for different styles of music.


But, based on a person's book, you are doing the exact same thing. You don't see it because you are stuck on believing that you are right and every one else is wrong who disagrees. I like all types of music. Just don't put me in a room with elevator music I would go insane. But that don't make it evil.

What one chooses to listen to, or worship, is strictly between him and God. It is not a salvation issue, and not germane to my main reason for being in this discussion -- the appropriateness of a music style for worship in a body of believers practicing in a Godly church the way God would have it.


Was God lying when this was said: jn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Isaac, let me ask you the same question I asked Scott, only reworded slightly. Can you show me the fruit, from scripture, of the introduction of rock music into the assembly of the body of Christ?


Can you show me where Satan ever created anything?

You say that Rock music is evil, correct?

mt 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Like I said before, what is evil is evil and can never bring forth fruit for the kingdom. So God's drawing power can never be in it. "Music", as a whole, was created by God. Just because someone takes a certain type and tries to corrupt it, it is still "music" that was created by God.

Life was created by God also. Just because we choose sin with that life, does that make us to corrupt to ever bring someone to Christ? Sin corrupted "music", and any "music" can be used to promote sin. But that does not make God's creation uncorruptable.

When God takes a man who is into drugs, drinking, p*rn, etc... And cleans him up. Is He not taking the corrupted and making them uncorrupted? So if we take the music, that God created to be played. Music that has been used to promote sin. Take it and clean it up and put it in the church to be used for the kingdom. And it draws fruit, because it is God's creation. Does not that show that the corrupt can become uncorrupt according to how it is used?

mt 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

jn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

There is a defining line between good and evil that you deny all through this thread. A line that keeps one from being the other. And baring of fruit as being the sign.

I don't care what people listen to on their iPods while walking down the street, or in the privacy of their own homes. I want to talk about rock music in church, and whether it pleases, or displeased God.

OK?

Dave

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Can evil be overcome with good?

rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

If a church invited a band like AC/DC to play, do you honestly think people will be drawn to God? No? Now why do you think that is? The tree, which is the "people" who play the music, can never produce the fruit of what they do not represent. The tree is not the music, it's the individual who plays that music.

mt 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

AC/DC can never produce good fruit for the kingdom because the people (trees) are corrupt. Not the music.

And the reason the same type of music can in church is because the people (trees) in the church playing the music are not corrupt. Non-corrupt trees bring forth the fruit of the kingdom.

#42 Dave

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Posted 04 October 2008 - 08:57 PM

mt 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

And the reason the same type of music can in church is because the people (trees) in the church playing the music are not corrupt. Non-corrupt trees bring forth the fruit of the kingdom.

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Isaac,

Thank you for bringing the discussion back to the church.

By the bolded quotes above can I presume that you are saying that rock music as it is played in the church produces good fruit, and therefore is incapable of producing bad fruit?

God has something to say about it. That's important, isn't it? What God has to say about the fruit, good or bad, of a worship style in church?

Dave

#43 ikester7579

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Posted 05 October 2008 - 12:22 AM

I don't get what you are saying. There seems to be no point made in that last post.

And if you imply that I'm not following God in this, please point out where I missed God.

#44 Dave

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Posted 05 October 2008 - 04:10 PM

Isaac,

OK. On to rock music and the church.

I hope we understand and agree that by “church” it is meant the church, the body of Christ, not necessarily the corner Presbyterian, Lutheran or Methodist building with its congregation in Anytown, USA.

First some review. To save time and typing, please allow me to repeat what I believe is a good exposition of the church from my earlier post to Scott:

According to the Bible, The Church is the body of believers that make up the body of Christ. Acts 2 has some verses that sum up pretty well what the first church consisted of. There are many more.

Acts 2:42- And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Acts 2:43 - And fear (or reverential awe) came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

Acts 2:44 - And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

Acts 2:46 - And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

Acts 2:47 - Praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.


Basically, The Church is made up of believers assembling for teaching and discipleship (Acts 2:43), fellowship with other believers (Acts 2:44 and 1Cor 6:14), breaking of bread, communion and shared meals (Acts 2:46), and praising God (worship) and praying together (Acts 2:42, 47).

All this was to be done with the body being in “one accord” (Acts 2:46).

During the apostolic era churches were basically what we would call home churches. Believers would go out into their communities, make new believers, and then – only then – bring them into the fellowship of the church. The church “service” was definitely not to be used to evangelize non-believers or to be conducted in a worldly, pagan way to attract non-believers off the street so they could possibly win them to Christ. Church is to disciple and edify those who were already in the body of Christ, and encourage them to go out and win new believers.

Throughout the epistles we read where those who violated God’s principles regarding the church are brought under church discipline.


Are we in agreement so far?

OK. On to worship.

Again, may I bring some information down from an earlier post?

What is worship? How does God expect to be worshipped?

Again, as always, the Bible gives us the final word.

95% of the time when worship is mentioned in the Old Testament the word used is “sachah,” which means to prostrate in homage to God, to bow down, to humbly beseech, to do reverence.

In the New Testament, the word most commonly used for worship is proskuneo, which means to kiss like a dog licking his master’s hand, to fawn or crouch down, to prostrate oneself in homage.

Some example scriptures:

Jos 5:14 ... And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?

Psa 95:6  O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker.

Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

1Cr 14:25  And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on [his] face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

Rev 3:9  Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Rev 4:10  The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne,...


So, you can see that worship is to be accompanied with the attitude of abject humility, subservience, reverence and awe, and in a posture expressing those characteristics. Certainly these are rare in today’s church, much less in our society in general—what with decades of “self-esteem” being taught in the government school systems.


OK. Here is where I put it all together with rock music.

If I can assume that we agree that the church is a gathering of the body of Christ coming together for humble, reverential worship in one accord as God would have them do, let’s see how the introduction of a sensual, rebellious, worldly, pagan style of music fits in according to the principles laid out in the Bible.

(I am indebted to Dan Lucarini and John Blanchard for having preceded me in harvesting these principles from the Bible and sharing them with us in their excellent book, “Can We Rock the Gospel.)

DOES ROCK MUSIC HELP US TO HEAR THE WORD OF GOD CLEARLY?

Isaac, you have graciously provided the answer to that question, my bolds:

The name of the song on the second video (because it’s hard to understand the lyrics) is “praising Him tonight” by Kutless. And even though some may disagree with the music, I believe this reaches an audience that would not be reachable any other way.


But, what’s happening here? If the congregation cannot understand the words, but they are being subjected to a barrage of a loud, sensual, driving beat, just exactly what message are they getting? Just what exactly is “reaching” this audience? Is it the word of God? Or is it something else?

Here’s what God has to say about it.

The Bible says that, “Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” (Rom 10:17)

Each message should be clearly, “handling the word of God.” (2Cor 4:2).

The church should be cleansed with it (Eph 5:26), sanctified through it (John 17:17), consecrated by it (1Tim 4:5), equipped for spiritual warfare in it (Eph 6:17), gently reproved by it (Col 3:16), and instructed by it (Col 3:16).

We will also have our hearts judged by it (Heb 4:12), our behavior corrected by it (2Tim 4:2), our lives encouraged through it (2 Tim 4:2), and will overcome by it (1John 2:14).

In other words, the written and preached word of God will, and should be, used to lead us to Christ. Scripture, and only Scripture, is utmost in importance for salvation, sanctification and for life itself.

So, does the music of the rock music style of CCM follow all these principles? Not even one of them! It can’t, because it is music, not words.

Do the lyrics of the rock music style of CCM follow these principles? Hardly, if one can’t even understand the words most of the time … as you so graciously admitted.

This is borne out in my own experience as well. You remember my story earlier in this thread about the local grocery store owner who played “Christian” rock music over his speakers. He is actually taking advantage of the fact that nobody can understand the words. His theory is that they will appreciate the rock music style, like the music, and … somehow … become unwittingly infused with the Holy Spirit, and maybe come to salvation. He’s a good man, and I believe he’s a believer. But, he is deceived about the roll that his rock music will play in his customers’ spiritual lives – as God attests to in the quoted verses above.

But, what about the occasional “Christian” rock song that you can clearly hear the words? Does the Bible have examples of hard-driving pagan-origin, wordly music being used to further God’s word in an assembly of the Body? Hardly. When music and worship go together in the Bible, the song is subservient to the words, accompanying, not overriding.

Also, are the “Christian” rock music words truly Godly? Or, do the lyrics of today’s “Christian” songs reflect the dangerous trend toward seeker-friendliness, love Gospel, name it and claim it of the New Age emergent church movement? If the Gospel is not being presented in its entirety, are those who profess after a rock concert, or because of a particular artist or song, really being saved? Can they stand the biblical assurance test of 1John. Statistically the overwhelming answer is “No.” Even Billy Graham admits it.

There’s more on this topic, but I must move on.

DOES THIS MUSIC MATCH UP WITH THE GLORY OF GOD?

Does “Christian” rock music with its driving beat, rhythm, syncopations and barely recognizable words reflect the purity, majesty, holiness and serenity of God? Be honest, can you imagine Jesus Christ singing praise that way? Or any of his apostles or disciples entertaining Jesus with the driving beat, loud guitars and tortured lyrics? If it has occurred any time or place in the New Testament God is oddly silent about it.

DOES THE MUSIC DIVIDE OR UNIFY CHRISTIANS?

I’ve already touched on scriptures illustrating the biblical principles of one-mindedness, unity and being of one accord among believers in the body of Christ. It is not only important, it is vital for Christians to be of one mind as they assemble together.

Isaac, I asked you earlier to provide some examples of the good fruit produced by the introduction of rock music into the assembly of the body of Christ. All you could provide was some nebulous assertion that people are drawn to the Lord via rock music.

This issue of unity is the real nut of the case against rock music in the church. There is some fruit produced here, but it’s all rotten. In actuality, rock music is probably today’s leading cause of people leaving churches and church divisions. Testimonies are legion, and I’ll provide some examples in a few more paragraphs.

But for now, ponder this: Even if rock music on its own merits was not damaging morally, physically and psychologically, how can bringing it into the church body against the wishes of large numbers of long-time believers bear any fruit in light of God’s principles for believers to assemble in unity?

One argument for rock music in church is to encourage the unsaved to come through the doors to hear the word preached. But, how can anyone claim that this honors God when the same music causes long-time church-goers to exit through those same doors? This violates God’s law of brotherly love and unity, and erects a stumbling block in the church.

God tells us that a “house divided against itself will not stand” (Matt 12:25). Is it just coincidence that the falloff of church attendance by true believers happened just about when the drums started coming into the worship service?

Here are some tragic testimonies from “Can We Rock the Gospel?” Multiply this by thousands, maybe millions, and then tell me if this is good fruit, or bad fruit. My bolds illustrate poignant passages in these testimonies.

‘A number of years back we attended an Easter service in a Baptist church. The pastor was quite involved in missions and the theme was “Christ died for all and rose for all” For the end of the service he asked someone from Africa to play the drums. It seemed a bit jolting to me, but it absolutely devastated my Cuban husband and ruined the whole service for him. He immediately recognized it as a rhythm used in Cuba to bring in the spirits in a seance. He remembers nights when this would play in a nearby home for hours on end.’ (A former missionary who grew up on a Caribbean island)

‘We had a 75th anniversary service at our Methodist church led by a “Praise and Worship Team” I was appalled. Members of the praise band looked exactly like the rock musicians my former husband used to record. The seductive dress of the women mimicked the styles worn by contemporary rock stars. There was a lot of prancing and dancing and performing just like at a rock show. This was not a “worship service’; but rather a “rock show with somewhat sacred words” The music was deafeningly loud due to the massive sound system. After 15 minutes, I left because my ears were hurting from the high decibel level of the music. Others walked out as well.’ (A classically trained musician with a master’s degree and involved in church music from her very early years)

‘I joined a rock band as a drummer in East Texas and played classic rock from the 1970s. I was indulging in all the sins of the flesh. I finally left this lifestyle and like the prodigal son I returned to the Lord. He showed me how the devil was using this music to destroy people. But to my amazement, the same rock music followed me back into the church. I was alarmed but as hard as I tried, I could not seem to convince others of the dangers of “Christianizing” the devil’s music. I thought the church had learned from history the danger of mixing pagan music or anything else not pertaining to God.’ (A former rock drummer)

‘I attended a service [in a large megachurch] ... last year that made me uncomfortable. There were strobe lights twirling with artificial smoke swirling inside the lights. And many camera close-ups of guitarists and the drummer were projected onto a video screen. I have to say that it left me somewhat cold. It really seemed like a format for the worship leader to show his talent more than anything.’ (A Presbyterian minister)

‘I am a member of the Greek Free Evangelical Churches. Before I met Christ as personal Savior, I was a fan of heavy metal music (AC/DC, Queen, Deep Purple and so on). The first thing that God did in my heart was to set me free from this kind of music. However, it is so sad to see how the devil manages to persuade the believers to use this same music in the Lord’s House!’ (A deacon at an evangelical church in Greece)

‘Last year I visited a Baptist church where I had once been the organist. I had to leave the service. It was “rock concert” city. The “blended service” consisted of loud, boisterous music with slamming drums and screeching guitars. A few traditional hymns were thrown in for the benefit of the few senior citizens who could stand the rock music.’ (A long-time organist)

‘At ... Chapel, the worship was awful. It was like pure noise. The drums were so loud that I couldn’t hear the praise team sing. And the bass was really loud too. It was like going to a rock concert. And the songs they picked were not worshipful, to say the least. They troubled my spirit.’ (A thirty-one-year-old who has since left that church)

‘I’m in what was until a few years ago a very conservative 200-year-old Presbyterian church. Our new pastor has begun a campaign to break down people’s resistance to new worship music by leveling charges in sermons such as “If you care about tradition or traditional worship, you’re living in sin.” How horribly wrong and hurtful! I am regularly in the cross hairs, and am praying for deliverance from this situation, by God’s grace. It is unsustainable over the long haul, without completely compromising what I believe God’s Word clearly teaches about how he wants to be worshipped.’ (A Presbyterian church’s music minister)

‘The loudness of the music is unjustified. There is an old saying, that when a pastor has nothing to say, he needs to yell louder and pound the pulpit. The noise alienates the older people. Their ears cannot tolerate the sound. I know many people, including my own parents, godly people, who have stopped going to church for the simple reason that the loudness of the music is intolerable to their ears. And the message is: “Young people matter ... you don’t.’” (Former president of an international Christian broadcasting ministry)

At one Christian camp the programme director got up on stage before all of the campers and started dancing and singing, “Do a little dance, make a little love, get down tonight” [from a hit song in the 1970s by K.C. and the Sunshine Band].’ He was oblivious to the fact that this was outrageous. He also played secular rock during activities, unaware that it was even wrong. The songs, all of which I knew from my past, were not all “neutral” in their message — some were just outright ungodly.’ (An evangelist and Christian camp speaker)

‘When I went into the youth building for the first time, I was nearly blown back out of the doors by the rock music that they regularly performed. I felt like I was having a cardiac arrest! But, what really struck me was that their worship area (lights dimmed, band up front, techies [technicians] in the back, etc.) was just like the bars in college where I had spent time so long ago. The only exception was that there was no booze or glittering disco ball on the ceiling. Whew. It was the pits.’ (A Sunday school teacher, high school science teacher and self-professed former party girl)

‘It breaks my heart to watch our people cover their ears and walk out, because the music is too loud. I hear people say, “I don’t want to go into the sanctuary and hear that rock and roll music.” What do we do? We don’t want to leave the Nazarene church, but we must.’ (A senior member of a Nazarene church)

‘We were beginning to wonder if we were all alone in our frustration with our community’s churches. We have been searching for over a year and are appalled at what churches are offering as worship to God. At some churches we had our eardrums shattered; at others we were embarrassed trying to go along with inappropriate congregational music. It appears that worship today has boiled down to singing a group of pop songs. There are no longer any Scripture readings, prayers, quiet meditation, confession of sins, and affirmation of faith ... things that are part of true worship.’ (An elderly church couple)

‘The Women’s Missionary Union leader showed a video that emphasized that heaven is a big rock party, and she played some loud and chaotic rock music to show the ladies how wonderful heaven will be. One lady came to her afterwards in private and said that she did not think heaven would be a big rock party, and the leader replied, “You have your opinion and I have mine. Do you really think that we would just be angels with wings, flying all around, strumming on harps all the time?” “No,” she answered, “I only believe what the Bible says about heaven.” The leader said as she walked away, “Well, if you don’t like it, then don’t watch it!” The movie was shown that Wednesday night to the whole congregation.’ (A member of a Southern Baptist church)

‘We are a GARBC church [General Association of Regular Baptist Churches] with an AWANA program [a popular Bible club for children]. Have you seen their new programs? The Bible memory tapes are accompanied by pure rock music and the local annual leader training program is a CCM service complete with video screen and a sound system to shake the walls and blow your eardrums, just like the rock concerts we used to attend.’ (Long-time AWANA leaders in a Baptist church)

‘The drums this morning pretty much drowned out the other music. He’s behind plexiglas which just means they turn up the volume louder. I have gone to this church just about all my life. I feel so badly that the Assemblies of God have lowered their standards to this type of music. But my husband is with the Gideons and speaks in many different types of churches and I must admit that I dread having to go to any church with him because the music is mostly contemporary there too. I just can’t get myself to go to Sunday evening service because it is all contemporary. I went one evening because communion was going to be served in the evening service. But a guitar” and the drums were the music for it.’ (A lifelong member of an Assembly of God church)

‘We should have known to leave when we saw the stage area with a trap set up there, but I don’t know what we were thinking — maybe they wouldn’t use it on Sunday morning? When the deafening noise began, I turned to my husband and said I couldn’t stay. I had to get out of there, whether anybody else did or not. That put him in a difficult situation because we were visiting with his brother-in-law. He looked over to our teenagers (ages 15,17 and 19) and he could tell they were visibly disturbed.  We made the decision to leave that church, even though it would look like a very judgemental statement and we knew our relatives would take it wrong. As we left the church building, a woman ran after us and asked us what was the matter. My husband, in a very controlled but deliberate way, told her that what was taking place in that building was displeasing to our God.’ (A Christian family visiting relatives)


Isaac, I don’t know if you read all these testimonies and thought deeply about the implications. But, I’m hoping you did. You need to ask yourself if it is Godly and biblical to drive sheep out of the fold because of a musical style preference.

DOES THIS KIND OF MUSIC HELP YOU TO SEPARATE YOURSELF FROM THE WORLD?

1John 2:15 is pretty unambiguous here: “Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.” And in 1Thess 4:7, “God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness.” And in 2Cor 6:17, that we are to “come out from among them and be separate”

God’s children are supposed to think, look and act different from the world. Is this happening in the “rock concert church?” Or, could you turn down the sound on a video of a church service and see a rock concert taking place?

WOULD YOU EXPECT TO FIND THIS KIND OF MUSIC IN HEAVEN?

There is definitely music in Heaven! Revelation 5:8-9, 5:11, and 5:13 speak of singing praise and honor and glory to the Lord, for example. Can you imagine God the Father enjoying rock music? Do you think he would receive it as being performed with humility, awe and reverence? Can you imagine that kind of music being sung by the angels, archangels, cherubim and seraphim? Really, Isaac?

In wrapping up, I want to say that the question that every music minister or worship leader should ask himself is if his own personal preference in music is creating wounded spirits out there in the congregation. Is he shattering the “one-accordness” that God tells us we should have?

He should examine himself in light of 1John to see, first, if he is truly walking with the Lord, and then to ask if his musical style reflects that walk.

It’s not about one’s personal preference about musical instruments. It’s not about one’s personal preference in chords, notes, rhythm. It’s not about one’s personal preference in dress or comportment. It’s to know how God wants His children to worship Him as they assemble as the Body of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Amen

Dave

#45 ikester7579

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Posted 06 October 2008 - 04:46 AM

This sounds like you are trying to teach a no music church. The case that you make fits all music, not just rock.

But let's take this another step further to the works judgement. Works will be tried by fire, correct? And works that are not of the kingdom will burn up, correct? So, if "any" work bring salvation, will that work burn up? Can a good fruit work burn up?

mt 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Evil equals nothing for the kingdom, as the verse says. Now if you apply it's truth, what is it actually saying? And by you saying that the music you do not approve of is evil. The the tree of it is evil as well. Which also means:

1) Every church that allows it is evil.
2) And because evil trees cannot produce fruit, no one in these churches was ever saved not have they ever been. Which includes the pastor.

Now you might say: I would not go that far. Well in order for what you believe to work according to how the Bible says it has to (no evil trees produce good fruit), it would mean that so many are not saved, the Devil has already won. And God is weak and powerless to stop it.

80% plus of young Christians listen to this music you claim is a evil tree. That means 80% of our young people who think they are saved are not. And if Christ came today, they would all go to hell. All because of rock music being played to Christian lyrics.

Sorry, God is not so weak that music is going to out do His saving grace. And the laws of good and evil that you are trying to make work, leave out the very verses I bring up. And you refuse to address them.

And 60% or more churches allow this music, and even more allow it in their youth ministries.

So if I got the math right, your claims make it to where at least 80% of all churches are going to hell because of the music they allow. Sounds like to me the Devil already won.

One more thing. Me putting this music here just sent everyone here to hell, right?

Evil trees cannot produce good fruit, and according to you rock music is an evil tree.

I suggest you do more study in spiritual warfare and figure out where the bounderies of good and evil are. And how to tell when something is evil or good. That book has got you all mixed up.

#46 Dave

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Posted 06 October 2008 - 08:19 AM

Isaac,

I don't see how I can improve on my exposition above of God's desire for the body of Christ to gather in fellowship to worship Him, and for them to praise him in awe, humility, reverence and in one accord.

If you don't "get it" by now, then you simply do not have the spiritual discernment to rightly divine the word of God in this regard.

I have tried to tell you I do not wish to get into discussing rock music as a salvation issue. I ask you for your own sake to please don't push me and force me to say what would need to be said to followup on your obsession with this.

At this point I will invoke Matt 7:6 and Matt 10:14 and bow out of this conversation.

Dave

#47 ikester7579

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Posted 06 October 2008 - 07:23 PM

I have tried to tell you I do not wish to get into discussing rock music as a salvation issue. I ask you for your own sake to please don't push me and force me to say what would need to be said to followup on your obsession with this.


To me, you have already made it abundantly clear. Only a chosen few who can resist music totally are going to heaven. The rest of us are damned for hell. If you would have came out and said what you believed, this debate would not have gone as far as it has. And down the rabbit trails that it did.

The rabbit trails were to get the truth out of you that you were so well at hiding. A belief that you are embarrassed to reveal is a belief that Christ would look at as being denied, and is not worth having.

I also deem a belief that has to hide it's real meaning, so that it can convince people of it's truthfulness, as a deception. Truth does not have to hide in darkness, and evil always has to be brought into the light to see the truth about it.

Your approach to this has made me, have to bring what you actually believe, into the light. Which also means it has to hide in darkness in order to work. You are afraid that people will be turned off if the real belief were revealed all at once. Because maybe people will not understand.

But Biblical truth does not have to ignore other parts of the written word in order to convince. Real Biblical truth applies all verses and makes the whole Bible mesh as one truth. And not a personal truth written by another.

You want to know why you could not convince me? I will list the reasons because I am not afraid of standing behind the written word.

1) From the beginning, you have ignore about 50% of what I said and asked.
2) You ignored the verses that I brought up, and would not even address them no matter how many times I repeated them. That makes me very suspicious.
3) You beat around the bush about what you really believe to try and slowly convince me, before you really let me know.
4) You use verses out of context.
5) And you accuse me of using my personal feelings towards music as the driving force of why I think you are wrong. When I clearly pointed out that I see the signs of God in those ministries, and God makes it very clear that "He" is the only one that can draw people to the Son. Which you more or less denied by making it clear that evil can draw people to Christ and that God will use evil to do it.

All through this debate you have tried to make it look like it was totally my fault for not understanding what you believe. That it was my feelings getting in the way when all along I was sensing you were hiding something. And now the truth about what you believe comes out and all you want to do is bow out?

I'm on this forum, and all over the net, standing behind what I believe without shame. Then I debate someone who hides it, like it is shameful and points the finger at me? Like the truth comming out about what you believe is all my fault? You should not have hidden your belief in the first place, and this problem that you deem as my fault would have never happened.

Being bold as a lion about your belief does not mean hide in the shadows and only come out when it's safe. It means you wear what you believe on your sleeve where everyone can see it. And know that you are not ashamed.

#48 scott

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Posted 06 October 2008 - 07:25 PM

Isaac,

I don't see how I can improve on my exposition above of God's desire for the body of Christ to gather in fellowship to worship Him, and for them to praise him in awe, humility, reverence and in one accord.

If you don't "get it" by now, then you simply do not have the spiritual discernment to rightly divine the word of God in this regard.

I have tried to tell you I do not wish to get into discussing rock music as a salvation issue. I ask you for your own sake to please don't push me and force me to say what would need to be said to followup on your obsession with this.

At this point I will invoke Matt 7:6 and Matt 10:14 and bow out of this conversation.

Dave

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Well, as from personal experience I can tell you those christian contemporary christian musicians play their music to praise God, with awe, humility, reverence and everyone in the church is in one accord during the concert. Ive been to the concerts, Ive heard the testimonies those musicians gave, and yes that is Godly music they play. Also, the point to the concert is not so much the music, but more so on the message which they talk about during the concert.

The concerts these musicians hold contain at least 2 hours of music and 2 hours of preaching and testamonials. This is the one true fact, that seperates Gods music, from Satans music. I simply cannot see why you continue to lump Godly Christ driven music in with the likes of Metallica, AC/DC, Lil Wayne, Coldplay, and all other antiChrist music. Rock music? Country music? Rap music? All of it means nothing without how the lyrics are applied!!! Simply, it offends me a little that you lump some of these musicians in with Satanist. Seeing as how I have met these people and heard them speak in real life.

Not seeing the difference in this is like claiming that a Pontiac Trans Am Firebird is a Ford, simply because they sound the same and have 2 doors.

Jesus Christ is the key to why we even call Contemporary Christian music, Christian. Can you point out to me, why Satan would even want to promote Jesus, and help others get to Jesus???

#49 Fred Williams

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Posted 06 October 2008 - 09:51 PM

What I believe to be a very interesting topic has unfortunately turned into a flame war. Everyone needs to cool their jets, please. Nobody is saying this is a salvation issue, and we shouldn’t be invoking Matt 7:6 and Matt 10:14 since those verses very clearly only apply to unbelievers.

Let’s return this to a ‘civil’ debate, and a good start toward this end is to stick to scripture and not get bent out of shape if someone doesn’t see it your way.

Thanks,
Fred

#50 Fred Williams

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Posted 06 October 2008 - 10:56 PM

[Please see my post that immediately proceeds this one before continuing...]

Here’s my two cents worth on this most interesting topic that I spent some time researching. There are many valid claims against rock and CM regarding satanic influence. Songs like “kick Jesus through the goal posts of life” is not something that is going to win a lot fans from the old liturgical side of the isle. :) There are many other valid claims against CM, but I’ll skip those. However, the claim that CM as a “style” is not God-pleasing is not a very easy claim to defend with scripture (if the rhythm component of CM was wrong you would think the Bible would call it out), and instead gives off warning beacons that legalism could be lurking around the corner.

Our contemporary band plays ‘Amazing Grace’ but with bass guitar and light drums thrown in. How could this possibly not be God-pleasing? The argument that rhythm brings out sensual desires, while this may be true of many rock songs, it isn’t very persuasive when considering the snare drum and bass behind the melody and words of Amazing Grace. If the issue is to not make a brother stumble because it will bring back memories of his sensuous rock youth, them we might as well keep good-looking women out of the church too. :)

Let me close by saying I’ve lived both sides of this, as I played in a rock band for many years (indeed it was not God-pleasing and very much “secular”). More recently I’ve been an occasional stand-in for the contemporary band in our church. There is a night and day difference (dark and light pun intended) between these two experiences. My old band has asked several times for me to come back, and whatever little desire I have is completely squelched by the desire to instead only play worship music, such as ‘Amazing Grace’. Songs like "Beautiful One" and many others will replay in the concience (completely dominated by melody), with words that are very much scriptural. I know for me personally it has nothing at all to do with sensuality or any other secular emotions, I don't feel any of that stuff; It instead has everything to do with worshiping Jesus. Has anyone heard Charlie Daniel's version of 'Our God is an Awesome God'? It's awesome! :)

oISFtafCOmM&feature

I have no doubt that CM in our church is a good thing and very much God-pleasing. I can't speak for other churches, and I'm sure it is misused just like many things with satan prowling around. CM in our church isn't perfect, but what is with anything us fallen, messed up humans are involved in? Let’s not forget the power of God to turn something secular into something good, something we’ve seen the Living God do throughout history (such turing on its head the pagan origin of Christmas).

Fred

#51 falcone

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Posted 15 October 2008 - 05:28 AM

Just out of interest, do any of you have favourite non-religious bands or artists? What about artist who profess to be Christians, but don't have any Christian material?

#52 ikester7579

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Posted 15 October 2008 - 05:53 AM

Just out of interest, do any of you have favourite non-religious bands or artists? What about artist who profess to be Christians, but don't have any Christian material?

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As far as bands who say one thing and play another. I deem them as some one who can talk the talk, but not walk the walk. Which means they are only 1/2 of what they are supposed to be. And if they do not change, they can be considered luke warm.

Revelation 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

That is Christ speaking. To be saved is to be in the body of Christ. To be spued out is to be removed from the body. One cannot be saved outside the body. So that would be considered a salvation issue.

Also, before I recommitted to Christ. I was a big segular rock music fan. The draw to listen is unbelievable. But I have been able to resist. And I can tell the difference in my soul between music and lyrics that edify Christ, and ones that do not.

Question: Do you ever listen to Christian music? If not, why not?

#53 falcone

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Posted 15 October 2008 - 06:53 AM

Question: Do you ever listen to Christian music? If not, why not?


Depends what you mean. I might like some Christian rock or alternative rock. I very much doubt I'd like much Christian rap music. But as an athiest, I don't identify with the subject matter in any case. The lyrics don't say anything to me about my life, and the actual music on it's own rarely makes up for that. I find other types of music much more relevant to me.

I have a pretty diverse taste in music though, and certainly would never say I didn't like a song simply beacuse it has a Christian theme.

For example, there's a song called Sunshine on Leith by The Proclaimers which I find quite beautiful. It certainly has a religious theme.

Anyway, enough about what I listen to. Getting back to what I asked - are there non-religious songs or bands you particularly like?

#54 ikester7579

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Posted 15 October 2008 - 08:55 PM

Depends what you mean. I might like some Christian rock or alternative rock. I very much doubt I'd like much Christian rap music. But as an athiest, I don't identify with the subject matter in any case. The lyrics don't say anything to me about my life, and the actual music on it's own rarely makes up for that. I find other types of music much more relevant to me.

I have a pretty diverse taste in music though, and certainly would never say I didn't like a song simply beacuse it has a Christian theme.

For example, there's a song called Sunshine on Leith by The Proclaimers which I find quite beautiful. It certainly has a religious theme.

Anyway, enough about what I listen to. Getting back to what I asked - are there non-religious songs or bands you particularly like?

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Used to like is more like it. But I have no problem listing them because I consider it something I over came to strengthen my walk with Christ.

Practically all rock groups.
All Southern rock groups.
60-70-and 80's groups.

There were none that I was a big fan of. I just listened. Most I did not even know who sung them. Basically I liked what every one else liked. If I had to pick a favorite, it would probably be Billy Joel. His songs most always told a story. Good or bad.

The reason I don't listen to secular rock anymore is because the lyrics are a way of reprogramming the mind. Singing and song effect the mind differently. A good example of this is a story I heard once.

Some Christians went to a nursing home to hold church there because most people in there have no way to go. While singing, one person had walked over to an elderly woman and asked her if she would like to sing a song, She shook her head yes. So they stuck the microphone to her mouth and she started to sing. Unknown to the Christian group was that she had not spoken in over a year because she was in the final stages of Alzheimer's. But here she was singing.

The reason she was able to sing but not speak is because singing comes from a different part of the brain. For her it was a part that had not been destroyed by Alzheimer's yet.

So for those who deem singing to be just like talking, that's not the way it works.

#55 falcone

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Posted 17 October 2008 - 01:16 PM

Used to like is more like it. But I have no problem listing them because I consider it something I over came to strengthen my walk with Christ.

Practically all rock groups.
All Southern rock groups.
60-70-and 80's groups.

There were none that I was a big fan of. I just listened. Most I did not even know who sung them. Basically I liked what every one else liked. If I had to pick a favorite, it would probably be Billy Joel. His songs most always told a story. Good or bad.

The reason I don't listen to secular rock anymore is because the lyrics are a way of reprogramming the mind. Singing and song effect the mind differently. A good example of this is a story I heard once.

Some Christians went to a nursing home to hold church there because most people in there have no way to go. While singing, one person had walked over to an elderly woman and asked her if she would like to sing a song, She shook her head yes. So they stuck the microphone to her mouth and she started to sing. Unknown to the Christian group was that she had not spoken in over a year because she was in the final stages of Alzheimer's. But here she was singing.

The reason she was able to sing but not speak is because singing comes from a different part of the brain. For her it was a part that had not been destroyed by Alzheimer's yet.

So for those who deem singing to be just like talking, that's not the way it works.

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Ah, Billy Joel - the Piano Man. Not really my cup of tea either, but I see why he's popular.

So don't you listen to him anymore? Do you only listen to Christian music? Sorry, I know I'm taking this thread way off topic. Just curious. I'm happy to stop and leave you guys to it if you prefer.

#56 ikester7579

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Posted 17 October 2008 - 10:20 PM

Ah, Billy Joel - the Piano Man. Not really my cup of tea either, but I see why he's popular.

So don't you listen to him anymore? Do you only listen to Christian music? Sorry, I know I'm taking this thread way off topic. Just curious. I'm happy to stop and leave you guys to it if you prefer.

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Nope. His message no longer appeals to my lifestyle.

#57 de_skudd

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 01:00 PM

Certain styles of music can, yes.

Allow me to quote some material here.
I'd say the bolded parts speak of corruption of the spirit, wouldn't you?

And because "Christian" rock musicians emulate the musical style, dress, mannerisms, graphic presentation, etc., of rock and roll there is virtually no difference. Only the words are different, but there are problems with even that ... for another topic.

Gotta get to work. More later.

Dave

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Are you saying here that mice have a spirit? Because, in my reading of the Bible and secular documents, I haven't found this to be the case. Having said that, I'm sure instrumental music can have some limited effect on you, but to say without the words, it can drive you to do things you don't want to do is a little unfounded.

Back to the intent… The spoken word (according to Biblical scripture) is the most important, and influential part of the song. The second, in importance (according to Biblical scripture), is the intent of the heart of the speaker. The hypocrite does more damage to the message than anything else. So, if the message is scriptural, and the motive is correct, the music is of little matter. It is nothing more than a vehicle for the testimony.

If you are a Christian, and you believe the scriptural evidence, the Bible (NT) is very clear on this. The Jews (and when I say Jews, I mean Jewish leadership of the time, not the Jewish people. This is the same manner and language of the NT)complained about Jesus speaking to the Publicans, Prostitutes and the Samaritans. But His Words and motives were correct. It didn’t matter where he went, because of these.

Now, who was it that complained about where he went, and who he spoke to? The legalists of the time!




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