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The Elusive Geological Time Column


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#41 MRC_Hans

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 06:44 AM

Simply because each layer is a sediment, and using the evolutionary mindset there would have to be a rather large flood to lay each layer of sediment over a period of millions of millions of trillions of unfounded illogical amounts of years. Also this would imply that there wasn't just one extremely large flood, but hundreds given the fact that there is so much sediment.


Excuse me, but that is complete nonsense. There was an ocean (or possibly a large lake). The whole area was covered by water for long periods of time, and the layers come from the seasonal discharges from rivers running into that body of water.

Evolutionist cannot get around the FACT that these are sedimental layers.  And they CANNOT get around the FACT that sediments are laid by extremely large bodies of water.


Of course we cannot. Why should we even try? Such large bodies of water are called oceans.

It is easy to see how a Global Flood could move such a large amount of sediment with such ease.  Seeing as how the entire planet was covered in thousands of feet of water for a year, well yes I definetelty could see these sediments being laid.


Maybe you can. Can you explain where all that sediment came from? We are talking about an area the size of Arizona, covered in a couple of miles thick sediment. And of course, there are quite a few sediment beds of similar, even larger magnitude, elsewhere on earth.

As you may know, such sediment consists of eroded rocks. The known sediment beds represent the equivalent of several large mountain ranges ground to gravel. Where did all that come from, less than 2,000 years after Creation, according to your timetable?

Hans

#42 scott

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 04:54 PM

Excuse me, but that is complete nonsense. There was an ocean (or possibly a large lake). The whole area was covered by water for long periods of time, and the layers come from the seasonal discharges from rivers running into that body of water.
Of course we cannot. Why should we even try? Such large bodies of water are called oceans.
Maybe you can. Can you explain where all that sediment came from? We are talking about an area the size of Arizona, covered in a couple of miles thick sediment. And of course, there are quite a few sediment beds of similar, even larger magnitude, elsewhere on earth.

As you may know, such sediment consists of eroded rocks. The known sediment beds represent the equivalent of several large mountain ranges ground to gravel. Where did all that come from, less than 2,000 years after Creation, according to your timetable?

Hans

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It is not complete nonsense it is a FACT that you have to face. And I'm glad you are finally understanding the FACT that you just made a big slip up in your logic.... came from large bodies called oceans, from a creationist point of view we would say DUH.

Eroded rocks, let us see now what type of rocks do you speak of, sandstone? Limestone? Stone that turns soft when water is applied? Please explain.

Also remember that it only took a few thousand years or less for the great pyramids and the sphinx to erode.

#43 jason777

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 12:32 AM

Quote;Can you explain where all that sediment came from? We are talking about an area the size of Arizona, covered in a couple of miles thick sediment. And of course, there are quite a few sediment beds of similar, even larger magnitude, elsewhere on earth.

As you may know, such sediment consists of eroded rocks. The known sediment beds represent the equivalent of several large mountain ranges ground to gravel. Where did all that come from, less than 2,000 years after Creation, according to your timetable?

The muav and redwall limestones are calcium percipitates.How in the world could that happen slowly over millions of years,except to someone who is brainwashed by uniformitairians.

When you stick your finger in a light socket do you get .0000001 volts over decades? :) When the temp or co2 levels in the ocean are favourable for calcium percipitation it also happens spontaneously,not slowly over millions of years.

The coconino sandstone is presumably the remnants of the appalachian mts. How could it end up spread over a thousand miles away and all in the same layer?We expect to see it evenly distributed throughout several geologic layers and close to where it eroded from. :)

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#44 MRC_Hans

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 02:04 AM

It is not complete nonsense it is a FACT that you have to face.  And I'm glad you are finally understanding the FACT that you just made a big slip up in your logic.... came from large bodies called oceans, from a creationist point of view we would say DUH.


When you cool down, you might explain which logic slip I made.

Eroded rocks, let us see now what type of rocks do you speak of, sandstone? Limestone?  Stone that turns soft when water is applied?  Please explain.


No. All of those are sediment rocks. In other words, they consist of hardened sediment. However, the sediment originated from rock types that were originally melted, like granite, basalts, and other hard rocks. Those are the kind of mountaind that had to be eroded down to gravel, before water could transport them to the Grand Canyon area and deposit them there.

Also remember that it only took a few thousand years or less for the great pyramids and the sphinx to erode.


They consist of limestone.

Hans

#45 MRC_Hans

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 04:34 AM

The muav and redwall limestones are calcium percipitates.How in the world could that happen slowly over millions of years,except to someone who is brainwashed by uniformitairians.


How could it happen fast? Whatever process you imagine, you need to explain how a mile-thick layer of material can come out of water and settle to form rocks. You need to explain the origin of that matter.

When you stick your finger in a light socket do you get .0000001 volts over decades? :) When the temp or co2 levels in the ocean are favourable for calcium percipitation it also happens spontaneously,not slowly over millions of years.


Where does the calcium come from? For your information, the content of calcium in seawater is appr. 0.04%. This means that for pound of calcium rock precipated, you need some 3 tons of seawater. Or, to translate it into hight, to precipate a mile of calcium rock, you need a column of water that is 3,000 miles tall! .... Or it needs to happen over a very long time.

The coconino sandstone is presumably the remnants of the appalachian mts. How could it end up spread over a thousand miles away and all in the same layer?We expect to see it evenly distributed throughout several geologic layers and close to where it eroded from. :)


"We expect"? Who are "we"?? Are those the same "we" who, in another thread here, claimed that the ocean beds should be choked with sediment from weathered down mountains, if Earth is old?

Frankly, I think "we" should get "our" story straight: Is sediment washed to the sea by rivers, or is it dumped in heaps nearby the eroded mountain?

Hans

#46 jason777

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 02:03 PM

Quote;How could it happen fast? Whatever process you imagine, you need to explain how a mile-thick layer of material can come out of water and settle to form rocks. You need to explain the origin of that matter.

I already did,yet you remain willingly ignorant.

Quote;Where does the calcium come from? For your information, the content of calcium in seawater is appr. 0.04%. This means that for pound of calcium rock precipated, you need some 3 tons of seawater. Or, to translate it into hight, to precipate a mile of calcium rock, you need a column of water that is 3,000 miles tall! .... Or it needs to happen over a very long time.

The entire canyon is only 1 mile deep,where are you getting your numbers from?Reference the cross section posted at the begining of this thread.

#47 jason777

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 02:16 PM

Quote;Frankly, I think "we" should get "our" story straight: Is sediment washed to the sea by rivers, or is it dumped in heaps nearby the eroded mountain?

I agree,but we dont see either in this case.

#48 jason777

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 02:28 PM

Could today’s surface waters have always been at the earth’s surface while the earth’s limestone slowly precipitated? Not based on the surprising distribution of carbon on earth. Table 7 shows that much more carbon exists in limestone than in all other sources combined.

Table 7. Approximate Distribution of Earth’s Carbon8
Place
Amount of Carbon
(1015 grams)

Atmosphere
720

Animals and Plants (living and dead)
2,000

Coal and Oil
4,130

Oceans (inorganic)
37,400

Sediments (primarily limestone)
> 60,000,000



Here is the problem. The above chemical equation shows that for every carbon atom precipitated in limestone, a carbon atom is released in CO2. At the earth’s surface, this gas enters the atmosphere. Had all limestone slowly precipitated in surface waters, as much carbon would have been released into the atmosphere (as CO2) as was precipitated in limestone (as CaCO3). The earth’s limestone contains more than 60,000,000 × 1015 grams of carbon. That amount of carbon in the atmosphere and seas would have made them toxic hundreds of times over. Today, the atmosphere and seas contain only (720 + 37,400) × 1015 grams of carbon.

However, before the flood the precipitation of limestone onto the floor of the subterranean chamber released CO2 back into the subterranean water. There, that CO2 helped dissolve more minerals in the chamber’s floor and ceiling. As the flood waters escaped upward, limestone precipitation released CO2, which escaped into the atmosphere or dissolved in water. The atmosphere gained tolerable amounts of CO2.

This table shows that limestone contains considerably more carbon than any other organic or inorganic source known.It strongly refutes limestone being slowly percipitated over millions of years.

Thanks.

#49 MRC_Hans

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 03:39 AM

Quote;How could it happen fast? Whatever process you imagine, you need to explain how a mile-thick layer of material can come out of water and settle to form rocks. You need to explain the origin of that matter.

I already did,yet you remain willingly ignorant.

Quote;Where does the calcium come from? For your information, the content of calcium in seawater is appr. 0.04%. This means that for pound of calcium rock precipated, you need some 3 tons of seawater. Or, to translate it into hight, to precipate a mile of calcium rock, you need a column of water that is 3,000 miles tall! .... Or it needs to happen over a very long time.

The entire canyon is only 1 mile deep,where are you getting your numbers from?Reference the cross section posted at the begining of this thread.

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And I say a mile-thick layer. A mile of calcium rock. ... You know: A mile.

No, you did not explain the origin of such an amount of sediment. Putting in soft rocks as an intermidiate does not help you any, quite the contrary; you still have to have some real hard rocks eroded down for raw material. Wheredo you think the calcium in water comes from? Right! It was originally washed out of rockes.

There is no way you can explain a mile-deep formation of sediment rockes within a young earth time-scale without resorting to metaphysics.

Hans

#50 MRC_Hans

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 03:41 AM

Quote;Frankly, I think "we" should get "our" story straight: Is sediment washed to the sea by rivers, or is it dumped in heaps nearby the eroded mountain?

I agree,but we dont see either in this case.

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Ehr, come again?

What we see in the GC is sediment washed to a one-time sea (as evidenced by marine fossils in some of the rocks) and settled to form layered rocks.

Hans

#51 jason777

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 12:37 AM

Quote;There is no way you can explain a mile-deep formation of sediment rockes within a young earth time-scale without resorting to metaphysics.

If you call testable evidence metaphysics then i would hate to find out what you would call mathematics.

Quote;What we see in the GC is sediment washed to a one-time sea (as evidenced by marine fossils in some of the rocks) and settled to form layered rocks.

Exactly.And it was washed there very rapidly,as evidenced by Steve Austins discovery of 1-5 billion nautiloids in a layer that stretches all the way to Las Vegas.They are all oriented in a direction consistent with high flow,they are all different sizes,and they are all in the middle of the layer where we expect to see them in a catastrophic deposit.

Thanks.

#52 jason777

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 12:45 AM

Quote;And I say a mile-thick layer. A mile of calcium rock. ... You know: A mile.

No one is that ignorant of the gology of the canyon.That mile is madeup of nearly every known rock type in the world,limestone,sandstone,shale,chert,granite,you name it.

Thanks.

#53 MRC_Hans

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 01:48 AM

Quote;There is no way you can explain a mile-deep formation of sediment rockes within a young earth time-scale without resorting to metaphysics.

If you call testable evidence metaphysics then i would hate to find out what you would call mathematics.


I don't. You have not presented any evidence of how such vast amounts of sediment could be present within a YEC timescale.

Exactly.And it was washed there very rapidly,as evidenced by Steve Austins discovery of 1-5 billion nautiloids in a layer that stretches all the way to Las Vegas.They are all oriented in a direction consistent with high flow,they are all different sizes,and they are all in the middle of the layer where we expect to see them in a catastrophic deposit.


That may be so, I have not examined that finding. So you find one layer that might point to a catastrophic event. Now you only have about a mile of other deposits to explain :rolleyes: .

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#54 MRC_Hans

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 02:06 AM

No one is that ignorant of the gology of the canyon.That mile is madeup of nearly every known rock type in the world,limestone,sandstone,shale,chert,granite,you name it.

Thanks.

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In other words: That mile of deposit consits of the remains of many different mountains, ground to rubble, immersed in water, transported over a considerable distance, deposited in nicely stratified layers, and petrified. After which a river ground a mile-deep, up to 16 miles wide valley into the plain.

Please describe, in detail, how this could be done in 6,000 years.

Hans

#55 jason777

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 10:12 AM

Quote;In other words: That mile of deposit consits of the remains of many different mountains, ground to rubble, immersed in water, transported over a considerable distance, deposited in nicely stratified layers, and petrified. After which a river ground a mile-deep, up to 16 miles wide valley into the plain.

At least you stopped calling the canyon a mile thick layer of calcium.

Quote;Please describe, in detail, how this could be done in 6,000 years.

I dont know of any catastrophic event that takes 6,000 years.Do you?

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#56 scott

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 10:36 AM

Yes, the Geological Time Column... where in the world is it????

It's like searching for Waldo.

#57 Guest_FrankH_*

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 12:30 PM

Yes, the Geological Time Column... where in the world is it????

It's like searching for Waldo.

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No, it's right here, or actually a good start: http://www.talkorigi.../timescale.html

and from wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia....ogic_time_scale

Let me know what issues you have with it and I'll do my best to answer them or at least point you in the right direction.

#58 scott

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 12:45 PM

No, it's right here, or actually a good start: http://www.talkorigi.../timescale.html

and from wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia....ogic_time_scale

Let me know what issues you have with it and I'll do my best to answer them or at least point you in the right direction.

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Ok, well just read the original post at the beginning of the thread. Those are the main things that I am concerned about.

#59 Guest_FrankH_*

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 01:26 PM

Okay Scott, I went back to the beginning, again. Let's see:

After reading through the books, and seeing all the neatly drawn textbook diagrams. I believe it is time that we take a look at what the evidence really shows concerning the geological time column.  This is a massive research of where the majority of all dinosaur and mammal fossils are found all throughout the world.  This research should finally unravel the supposed existance of the geological time column.

And a lot of it has been done already.
Also with the research being done, it may also map out what the world was like before the flood, and the actual placement of all the existing species at the time. This research will also reveal the massive evidence of a global flood, all the while exposing the geological time column for what it truly is.
Yes, a truly impressive feat dealing with several different disciplines of science.
So lets take a look at all the fossil sites that show a lack of the geological time column.
To which there can be a number of different and highly likely reasons.
Starting in North America, and moving from there.

(snip) see page 1

Good list. Let's see where you're going now with it.
These are just a few fossil sites from around the world that fail the geological time column test. Now if it could be proven that these sites overlap each other and somehow create some sort of order, then maybe, just maybe the geological time column exist, but alas conclusive evidence is needed.
Not all sites have fossils and there are sites where over thrusts, inversions and more can take place. The Earth is a very active planet you know.
Global Flood evidence is quite easy to recognize, just take a look at the Karoo Basin where over 800 billion vertebrae animals DIED at once.
Well it was the first Geologist, who knew nothing of Darwin, the age of the Universe or anything that first started talking about "Deep time" as they even knew that 6 days and a Global Flood didn't mesh with what they saw. As for the, uh, 800,000,000,000 or 8*10^11 of animals, are you sure? I don't think this planet can support 800 Billion animals of a significant size. That is not 800 Billion that died all at once, that shows a long time to accumulate that many dead things. If they were brought up from all over the world, where are the human bodies that would have been there from the flood?

The Karoo Basin: http://dinosaurs.abo.../karoobasin.htm

And more research from March of this year: http://geology.com/n...roo-basin.shtml
New Egg Mountain in Montana is also another great example, where 10,000 to 20,000 dinosaurs died simultaneously in a 2 mile area,
Lake Nyos killed hundreds of people and their animals when it erupted not much more than just gas: http://www.sciencece...com/site/505331
or Sioux County Nebraska where 100 bones to the square foot are found in the area. Also look to the Islands of the Mediterranean where fissures of thousands of bones are crammed together.
Yes but at different depths and some in different rocks.
Mount Etna has 2 caves CRAMMED with the bones of thousands of hippopatamus... Strange, hippopatamus on mountains... definetly undeniable flood catastrophe evidence.
Where's you get that? I'd like to see the evidence. Even still, the Romans had zoos and hippos weren't unknown to them.
Montceau fossils of forest have found about 7000 slabs and 100,000 nodules in excellent condition, along with fossilized spiders, scorpions, millipedes, insects and reptiles, but the absolute most amazing part about this is the flood evidence it contains. Which is fossilized water ripples marks, and raindrops found on the site which also adds up to more evidence for a Global Flood.
Nope. A "great flood" wouldn't leave ripple marks nor rain drop patterns as how could it? That is again evidence for slow deposition and gradual sedimentation of the area over a real long time scale (think really big).
Dinosaur Provincial Park in Alberta is also another great example of global flood evidence where 1 bone bed lie the remains of thousands of relatives to the centrosaurus!
Yeah all these bones from animals that are from a specific time frame. Nice of the flood to be so exacting in the turbulent and chaotic waters to only put animals of one species all together. Again, that reads more like a local event, volcanic gassing, and then a land slide. That is far more likely than a great flood that kept a certain group of animals together.
This type of Flood evidence is not suprising at the least, seeing as how thousands of dinosaurs are usually found fossilized together in the majority of all fossil sites across the world. China has its share of mass graves. In all actuality most the dinosaur fossil sites today are truly mass graves anyways. These fossil sites also provide little to no evidence of a geological time column.
Again, not every site will have fossils. That is not a problem but the more we look, the more we will find.
Evolutionist like to claim that the geological time column is fragmentary, but when the geological time column appears to be fragmentary almost 100% of the time, something is particulary fishy.
If the Earth was not Geologically active, if it was not meteorologically active you'd have a point. The timescales here are vast. Ever seen "Life After People"? It is said that all traces of human civilization will be gone in 100,000 to 250,000 years and 99.9% will be gone in just 10,000 years.

We are but a drop in an ocean at just 100,000 years. Dinosaurs had been around for how many 10s of Millions of years and it is still hard to find new fossils of them!

The Earth has been here for 4.5 Billion years. That is why it's hard to find and the Geological Column is fragmentary.

#60 scott

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 02:27 PM

The Montceau fossils would show a flood, because it would mean rapid fossilization. Mainly because water marks are present. A flood would be the ONLY thing that could bury ripple marks and water marks with large amounts of sediment... think about it. I don't know of any fossilization that is not rapid. Even Ashfall fossilization, and Amber fossilization is rapid. The covering must be rapid, or you loose the specimen.

Lake Nyos also didn't fossilize it's people either now did it?? Nope.

How do you know the earth is really 4.5billion years old??? Did you go back and ask someone from that time period.

Actually No dates past recorded human history are accurate and can even be considered reliable.

Also, whats the problem with Romans knowing that Hippos existed??? I don't see one.

Actually I will have to check on the 800 billion number of the Karoo Basin, because seems that the estimated number that I keep finding, therefore it probably isn't verified.

So if it wasn't a global flood, then each and every prehistoric animal that died in mud sediment must have just miraculously died by a river. Some buried alive... they must have been very disorganized.

Also I've seen Life After People, and the 100,000 year estimate is still an estimate and is not verified, neither is 65million, 125 million, or 4.5 billion.

Oooohhh so it's like we picked up this rock, and threw it in a microwave, and out popped this cool old age date. Isotopic dating... I'm very speculative of it.




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