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The Book Of Revalation


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#1 jason777

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 09:54 PM

As you may know there are about as many interpretaions of the book of revalation as there use to be hairs on my head.

The bible tells us that it's not open to personal or private interpretation,so if the bible is referring to something,it's the bible itself that gives the meaning.A good example of that would be the reference to the antichrist "it is the number of a man and the number of his name" For centuries people have tried to figure out the number 666 and have made some very laughable predictions as to who it is based on birth dates etc.

The bible at the time the book of revalation was written was in greek or hebrew.Each of these languages have numerical values for aphibetical letters,kind of like roman numerals.So,a persons name in hebrew would have a numerical value.At the time revalation was written Nero Caesar was the emporer of rome,if we spell his name in hebrew and then add up the number of his name it equals 666.Nero is the man who went on an all out assult on christians,he used them for nightly illumination by hanging them up and lighting them on fire,he is the one that ordered the beheading of the apostle Paul,and he is the one that ordered the crucifiction of Peter.

I used to have a little book that went through the entire book of revalation and used the bible to answer the prophecies in it,but i lost it and can't remember the name of it.

It went back to the book of daniel and pointed out the bible clearly is saying there will be 7 ressurections of the roman empire.Nero is the head that had a fatal wound (he commited suicide by stabbing himself in throat)but yet the empire survived.Hitler forming an alliance with muscillini during world war 2 was significant and was the sixth ressurection of the roman empire,the bibles phrophecy tells us that 1 more ressurection of the roman empire will take place in the future.

Help me fill in the gaps if you know any more.

Thanks.

#2 Adam Nagy

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 08:37 AM

When I talk to people about revelation, and new Christians hone in on revelation like it’s the coolest and most mysterious thing to examine, I try to tell them about the Scribes and Pharisees reaction to Jesus based on their own interpretations of the OT prophesies.

When the Bible warns us that the Bible is of no private interpretation it’s a warning that forces us to differentiate between exegeses and eisegesis. The reason I say this is because the Church’s handling of the second coming of Christ is one of the more embarrassing chapters of the Christians endeavor to interpret scripture. I don’t think it’s bad to explore hypothetical understandings of revelation and what it’s pointing to but when people believe that their interpretations are sealed as tight as the scriptures that plainly talk about something like salvation. I have a tendency to get suspicious, especially regarding Revelation.

So what does this have to do with the Scribes and Pharisees? Well, the flavor of the day in Jesus time was to Harold this conquering Messiah and ignore all those pesky tidbits about a suffering Messiah. It was so ingrained in the Jewish mind that even Jesus’ Disciples couldn’t shake the concept while Jesus Himself was bringing clarity to the message.

I have a tendency to use (Matt 24:26-27):

"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.”

The Father has so intentionally kept the second coming reserved for Himself, that the information didn’t even go with the Word as He was made flesh.

(Matt 24:36) "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

I’d like to hear what you think of this perspective.

#3 oliver

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Posted 01 April 2009 - 07:22 PM

The bible tells us that it's not open to personal or private interpretation,so if the bible is referring to something,it's the bible itself that gives the meaning.A good example of that would be the reference to the antichrist "it is the number of a man and the number of his name" For centuries people have tried to figure out the number 666 and have made some very laughable predictions as to who it is based on birth dates etc.

The bible at the time the book of revalation was written was in greek or hebrew.Each of these languages have numerical values for aphibetical letters,kind of like roman numerals.So,a persons name in hebrew would have a numerical value.At the time revalation was written Nero Caesar was the emporer of rome,if we spell his name in hebrew and then add up the number of his name it equals 666.Nero is the man who went on an all out assult on christians,he used them for nightly illumination by hanging them up and lighting them on fire,he is the one that ordered the beheading of the apostle Paul,and he is the one that ordered the crucifiction of Peter.

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The identification of the beast as Nero is mainly pushed by those who take a preterist view and want to claim that all or most endtimes prophecy was fulfilled in 70AD. If Revelation was written later, the whole preterist scheme collapses.

The more generally accepted date for Revelation is in the reign of Domitian in the 90s. Domitian had a policy of exiling people rather than killing them; thus John was exiled to Patmos.

The gematrial interpretation of Nero's name as 666 is flawed. The following quote is from this discussion thread

Nero Caesar in aramaic is spelled NRON KSR. Aramaic letters have numeral values like roman numerals.
N= 50
R=200
O= 6
N= 50
K=100
S= 60
R=200
.....666

"The preterist takes a relatively uncommon form of Nero's name, Nero Caesar or Caesar Nero, and adds an "n", resulting in Neron Caesar. Next the Latin is transliterated into Aramaic, resulting in nrwn qsr, which when using the numeric equivalent of the letters, then adds up to 666 as follows:
Nun = 50
Resh = 200
Waw = 6
Nun = 50
Qoph = 100
Samech = 60
Resh = 200

An example of this spelling has apparently been recently discovered in one of the Dead Sea scrolls. (If you use the same process, but without the added "n" the result is 616. Interestingly, some early manuscripts of the Bible have 616 rather than 666, but even scholars such as Irenaeus attribute the 616 to only a copyist error.)

There is a problem though with the above calculation. According to the rules of Jewish numerology, known as gematria, when the letter Nun appears a second time in a word, it is known as a "Final", and takes the value of 700. So to be precise, NRWN QSR actually adds up to .1316 and not 666 "



#4 oliver

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Posted 01 April 2009 - 09:02 PM

When the Bible warns us that the Bible is of no private interpretation it’s a warning that forces us to differentiate between exegeses and eisegesis. The reason I say this is because the Church’s handling of the second coming of Christ is one of the more embarrassing chapters of the Christians endeavor to interpret scripture. I don’t think it’s bad to explore hypothetical understandings of revelation and what it’s pointing to but when people believe that their interpretations are sealed as tight as the scriptures that plainly talk about something like salvation. I have a tendency to get suspicious, especially regarding Revelation.
...
"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.”

The Father has so intentionally kept the second coming reserved for Himself, that the information didn’t even go with the Word as He was made flesh.

(Matt 24:36) "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

I’d like to hear what you think of this perspective.

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The last point first.

The thing that the Father reserved to himself was the timing of Jesus' return. Anyone who claims to know the date is plainly wrong.

However we are expected to understand the signs of the times and to take in the huge amount that the bible has to say about the end times. The Jewish leaders failed to do this and that was part of the reason for their rejecting Jesus. He said of them,

And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.


Why should they have known about that particular day ("this thy day")?

In Daniel 9, the prophecy is given of the 70 weeks (sevens) which is clearly a prophecy of 70 sevens of years. It is divided into 3 periods: 7 sevens (49 years), 62 sevens (434 years) and 1 seven. The period runs from the command to rebuild the city of Jerusalem with its walls. That decree is the decree of Artaxerxes given to Nehemiah. Sir Robert Anderson showed, in The Coming Prince, that that period ended on the very day that Jesus entered Jerusalem on a donkey, fulfilling the prophecy of Zechariah 9:9: "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass." After that, Daniel prophesied the death of Messiah and the destruction of the city: "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined." (Dan 9:26) The last seven is split off from the previous 69 by an interval that we can see to be a minimum of 38 years (between 32AD and 70AD, when Jerusalem was destroyed) and that in fact has lasted even till now.

So Daniel's prophecy is the framework and foundation around which all end times prophecy should be interpreted. We can see that the prophecy was literally fulfilled by Jesus' crucifixion and the later destruction of Jerusalem, so we should expect to see a literal fulfilment of the last part of it, the final 7 years. However, seeing that there is an interval and that Jesus specifically showed that only the Father knows the date for his return, we cannot say what the date of the commencement of that 7 years will be.

#5 oliver

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Posted 01 April 2009 - 09:42 PM

We have seen that Daniel 9 is the framework for a prophetic schedule. We need to interpret Revelation within that schedule.

In Revelation, Jesus himself reveals, through John, what is going to happen in the future.

The first chapter shows Jesus himself in his glory.
Chapters 2 and 3 are letters sent by Jesus to seven churches in Western Turkey, in what was then the Roman province of Asia. These letters can be understood on at least three levels.

First, each is a letter to a specific church relating to its own circumstances at that time (c. 95AD).

Second, each church is representative of all the possible kinds of church that ever exist. (Seven is a number that signifies completeness.)

Third, each church is representative of an age of church history (at least in the West), in order, from late apostolic times till now:

Ephesus - late first century. The church was doctrinally sound but was second generation and had lost its first love for Jesus.
Smyrna - 2nd century. Suffering persecution from men, but faithful.
Pergamum -3rd century+. Still faithful but now tainted by nicolaitanism - priestcraft - and gnostic antinomian ideas.
Thyatira - 5th-15th century. Catholicism - idolatry. The few faithful are told only to endure.
Sardis - 16th-18th century. Reformation. Supposedly alive but actually dead, with no completed work. The Reformation dislodged some Catholic error but kept the state-church system; it never finished the job of reform.
Philadelphia - 19th century. The period of worldwide evangelism.
Laodicea - 20th century+. Compromising, powerless, proud, disgustingly lukewarm.

(Of course, these are only very general depictions of those periods, and they tend to overlap.)

Chapters 4 and after deal with the end time, the last 7 years spoken of by Daniel.

#6 oliver

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Posted 01 April 2009 - 10:38 PM

Chapters 4 and after deal with the end time, the last 7 years spoken of by Daniel.

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Chapter 4 begins with John being caught up into heaven (Come up here). Apart from the plain meaning, that John in his vision was taken up to heaven, I take this to be symbolic of what is called the rapture of the church, described in 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15. From here on, John's viewpoint is from heaven.

The prophecy of the 70 weeks in Daniel 9 is specifically for "your (Daniel's) people", that is, the Jews. Romans 11:25 shows that Israel is currently set aside, in a partial hardening, until the full number of Gentiles has come in, that is, until the church is completed. After that point, Israel's prophetic history will be resumed. God only has one "focus" at a time. Since Abraham, his main focus has been Abraham and his descendants through Isaac and Jacob; the church was a mystery, concealed in the Old Testament but revealed in the New. Israel's rejection of their Messiah meant that they were put aside for a time, and the church was revealed as the means of grace to the Gentiles as well as faithful Jews. However, the many promises to Israel have not yet been fulfilled and must be, or else God would be proved a liar. When the church is completed and removed from the earth, the focus will switch back to Israel, and those promises will be fulfilled.

The removal of the church is not necessarily the beginning of the last seven years, though it may be. The event that defines the start of that period is the revealing of the coming prince, called by John the antichrist, and his making a treaty with Israel. (Dan 9:27) In the middle of that 7 year period, he will break the covenant and set his own image up in the temple (which must therefore have been rebuilt by then). This is the event that Jesus called "the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place". (Matt 24:15) That event is the signal for faithful Jews to flee Judaea, without even waiting to go back in the house to pack. (This is not the same as the instruction in Luke to flee Jerusalem when they see it surrounded by armies. That was fulfilled in 68/69AD; the Christians obeyed when the Roman army lifted the siege for a short time and thus escaped the fall of the city in 70AD.)

Certain very specific time indications are given in both Daniel and in Revelation. We have already seen that the time of Israel's history from the covenant with the coming prince until Jesus' return will be 7 years; half of that period is "a time, times and half a time" (= 3.5 years) and is also described as 1260 days or 42 months. This demonstrates that we are dealing with a "prophetic year", containing 12 months of 30 days each (as in Genesis 6-8). That is also the key to interpreting the 69 sevens of years between Artaxerxes' decree and Jesus' triumphal entry.

It seems that the wrath of God begins to be released on the world from the time that the church is removed. The judgements begin with the release of the four horsemen on the world (Rev 6).
[I need some sleep; I shall continue later.]

#7 the totton linnet

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 03:36 AM

Coming from a catholic background I had from the start an interest in that word "that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of any private interpretation for the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."
We are to open the bible and read as it is written-the whole bible-in this way it will interpret itself to us and if we read believingly and in prayer God will speak to us, individually or in fellowship with others or even as the whole church [were that possible]
Now at the risk of offending I must say that I find christians everywhere reading the scripture according to private interpretation.
John Calvins interpretataion, Josef Arminus interpretation, John Nelson Darby interpretation. This is all the difference between doctrines of men and the truth, how-so-ever wonderfully gifted and intelligent those men may have been.
They form their wonderful doctrines, then they take the sciptures and make THEM to conform to their private interpretation every bit as much as the catholics did often with much wresting and contortion of words, great mistakes are made.
It is tragic.
Men teach doctrines God speaks the truth in the same way that Jesus spoke and in the same way that the Apostles wrote.
*
Um Jason dear, are you bald? <_< :angry:
*

#8 the totton linnet

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 05:03 AM

Coming from a catholic background I had from the start an interest in that word "that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of any private interpretation for the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."
We are to open the bible and read as it is written-the whole bible-in this way it will interpret itself to us and if we read believingly and in prayer God will speak to us, individually or in fellowship with others or even as the whole church [were that possible]
Now at the risk of offending I must say that I find christians everywhere reading the scripture according to private interpretation.
John Calvins interpretataion, Josef Arminus interpretation, John Nelson Darby interpretation. This is all the difference between doctrines of men and the truth, how-so-ever wonderfully gifted and intelligent those men may have been.
They form their wonderful doctrines, then they take the sciptures and make THEM to conform to their private interpretation every bit as much as the catholics did often with much wresting and contortion of words, great mistakes are made.
It is tragic.
Men teach doctrines God speaks the truth in the same way that Jesus spoke and in the same way that the Apostles wrote.
*
Um Jason dear, are you bald? :o  :)
*

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Perhaps as explanation of what I mean.
Someody will ask me "do you believe the scriptures is God's word?" I say "yes I believe the..."
They immediately come back "how, in what way?...do you believe they heard a voice? did they get caught up in a vision? do you mean every dot and every comma?" etc etc.
This is where all the nonsense begins, I said I believe the scriptures is God's word, that's it full stop, I'm not going to try to explain it to anybody.
This same thing applies to all and each of the teachings of the bible, I just believe what is written, it is when grave and learnéd men sit down and try to work it all out into a unified system of faith that they get into all kinds of tangles and snares. They are seeking the wrong thing i.e. knowledge after the human kind which is what I say to you Jason, you are seeking knowledge, seek faith dear friend, ask God for faith, for faith is the KEY that will unlock the treasure chest, you are trying to unpick the lock as a thief would then you become angry and fetch out the hatchet but still the treasure chest remains locked.
You want to find out the end-times? they are there just as much in the parables of Jesus as in the book of Revelation.
*
Let me explain why I take the stance I do-or perhaps why others take a different stance-I do not rely on on my own ability or intellect to be able to prove the bible is God's word, I rely wholly that God will take His own word even though it be spoken by a beggar in rags and He will apply it and confirm it and bear witness to it Himself, that is His domain, my part is to believe it and to speak it. People can haw haw the bible till they are blue in the face but the fact for us is that God said if we would believe He would wash away our sins, we did believe He did wash away our sins, God said if we would recieve Christ as Lord our spirits would be made alive and we would recieve new life, we did recieve Him as Lord and our spirits have been made alive and whereas before our spirits were dead, slain in trespasses and sins now we have His life within. God said "[she] that believeth in Christ, as the scripture hath said, out of [her] belly will flow rivers of living water" we did believe in Christ and the living water is flowing out of our very belly.
These are the proofs of the bible but they are only given to faith. Even while you are reading this people in China, in India, in Britain in America all over the world are coming to this same faith and are recieving the same blessings The scoffers come and go, the popularity of pop stars ebb and wane but when Jesus calls people flock to Him in the same old way that they always have, nothing can stop it. YOU come, you prove for yourself He is true and that He is alive today and then believing the bible in genesis or revelation or any where else will not present any difficulty.
:( :o
JASON I AM SO-O SORRY I've mixed you up with the other Jason and answered you as I might have answered him, what a dreadful mistake!
I sincerely apologise to both Jasons ALL Jasons everywhere in the world.
There now I thought you were Atheist Jason and I thought you had changed your stance somewhat, I was hoping you might be saved!! :lol:
There you see God HATH chosen the foolish to believe in Him just like the bible says. Apologies once more.

#9 de_skudd

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 06:59 AM

Let me explain why I take the stance I do-or perhaps why others take a different stance-I do not rely on on my own ability or intellect to be able to prove the bible is God's word, I rely wholly that God will take His own word even though it be spoken by a beggar in rags and He will apply it and confirm it and bear witness to it Himself, that is His domain, my part is to believe it and to speak it. People can haw haw the bible till they are blue in the face but the fact for us is that God said if we would believe He would wash away our sins, we did believe He did wash away our sins, God said if we would recieve Christ as Lord our spirits would be made alive and we would recieve new life, we did recieve Him as Lord and our spirits have been made alive and whereas before our spirits were dead, slain in trespasses and sins now we have His life within. God said "[she] that believeth in Christ, as the scripture hath said, out of [her] belly will flow rivers of living water" we did believe in Christ and the living water is flowing out of our very belly.

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I’ll disagree with you a little here totton (but only a little). We can rely on our intellect in proving God’s existence (proving His existence is actually relatively simple), but our ability and intellect come wholly from God. This may sound like a catch -22, but it isn’t. There are times we need to rely on God with a childlike faith, but, God has His signature all over His creation as well, and our intellect observes these facts and describes them. So the evidences are abundant and obvious.
But, why are there those who won’t believe and accept? Because of their stubbornness and pride! God will confound the hard hearted because they refuse to simply listen. They want to argue because they want to be masters of their universe. And there’s the nub of it!

These are the proofs of the bible but they are only given to faith. Even while you are reading this people in China, in India, in Britain in America all over the world are coming to this same faith and are recieving the same blessings The scoffers come and go, the popularity of pop stars ebb and wane but when Jesus calls people flock to Him in the same old way that they always have, nothing can stop it. YOU come, you prove for yourself He is true and that He is alive today and then believing the bible in genesis or revelation or any where else will not present any difficulty.

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The proofs of the Bible aren’t only given to faith. But, some of them are. The Historicity of Jesus, and witnesses to his miracles are well documented and supported. But, we didn’t see them, so we have to take it on faith in the reliability of its writers. But, they had no reason to lie, so this only increases our faith, etc…

#10 the totton linnet

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 08:20 AM

I’ll disagree with you a little here totton (but only a little). We can rely on our intellect in proving God’s existence (proving His existence is actually relatively simple), but our ability and intellect come wholly from God.  This may sound like a catch -22, but it isn’t. There are times we need to rely on God with a childlike faith, but, God has His signature all over His creation as well, and our intellect observes these facts and describes them. So the evidences are abundant and obvious.
But, why are there those who won’t believe and accept? Because of their stubbornness and pride! God will confound the hard hearted because they refuse to simply listen. They want to argue because they want to be masters of their universe. And there’s the nub of it!
The proofs of the Bible aren’t only given to faith. But, some of them are. The Historicity of Jesus, and witnesses to his miracles are well documented and supported. But, we didn’t see them, so we have to take it on faith in the reliability of its writers. But, they had no reason to lie, so this only increases our faith, etc…

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I read your post on apologetics :o It's more of a technical difference really and probably isn't one at all, what I really mean is that percieving with our intellect is not the crux on which our salvation [or any spiritual matter] turns but it turns upon personal revelation. Nothing is more frustrating than having shaken someone down [I could share stories] and they come to a perception of the truth intellectually yet faith is not activated and they are not saved.Yes there are abundant proofs in creation alone that there is God, all the hard evidence of what lies beneath our feet and the population and movement of peoples data points to young earth creation as related in Genesis and there is no evidence at all for evolution, I have learned quite a bit about that right here in this forum and how the evolutionists create a hypothesis upon a theory and add classifications and sub classifications giving them all wonderfully high faluting names and values and where is the evidence of it all? no wonder they believe it all started with a gas :lol:
Once during a stay in London I happed to meet by chance in one of the parks a very famous left wing politician known for his atheism and known for his razor sharp intellect, I did not know him until a year later I saw his picture in the Telegraph in that same park and wearing the same coat and beret. We fell to talking, he was feeding squirrels and lamenting that they were afraid to come too close, which of course was my cue. I immediately became aware that I was swimming way out of my depth, this was no ordinary intellect, though he was kindly. But God is quite intellectual as well, and He enabled me to not only answer him but actually prevail, even when he looked at me with sorrowful eyes [as with the head-teacher with a remiss student] "then you believe in predestination" a thing more loathesome to his kind could not be imagined. But I was able to answer in a way that softened his eyes somewhat. He said in parting "young lady I sit and rub shoulders every day of my life with all the top churchmen in the nation, all denominations but nobody has ever spoken to me about God as you have done this morning, and you a working person." he suddenly grabbed my shoulders and planted a wet kiss on my cheek, God loves intellectual people, I pray he will be saved.

#11 de_skudd

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 08:49 AM

*
I read your post on apologetics  :o It's more of a technical difference really and probably isn't one at all, what I really mean is that percieving with our intellect is not the crux on which our salvation [or any spiritual matter] turns but it turns upon personal revelation. Nothing is more frustrating than having shaken someone down [I could share stories] and they come to a perception of the truth intellectually yet faith is not activated and they are not saved.Yes there are abundant proofs in creation alone that there is God, all the hard evidence of what lies beneath our feet and the population and movement of peoples data points to young earth creation as related in Genesis and there is no evidence at all for evolution, I have learned quite a bit about that right here in this forum and how the evolutionists create a hypothesis upon a theory and add classifications and sub classifications giving them all wonderfully high faluting names and values and where is the evidence of it all? no wonder they believe it all started with a gas  :lol:
Once during a stay in London I happed to meet by chance in one of the parks a very famous left wing politician known for his atheism and known for his razor sharp intellect, I did not know him until a year later I saw his picture in the Telegraph in that same park and wearing the same coat and beret. We fell to talking, he was feeding squirrels and lamenting that they were afraid to come too close, which of course was my cue. I immediately became aware that I was swimming way out of my depth, this was no ordinary intellect, though he was kindly. But God is quite intellectual as well, and He enabled me to not only answer him but actually prevail, even when he looked at me with sorrowful eyes [as with the head-teacher with a remiss student] "then you believe in predestination" a thing more loathesome to his kind could not be imagined. But I was able to answer in a way that softened his eyes somewhat. He said in parting "young lady I sit and rub shoulders every day of my life with all the top churchmen in the nation, all denominations but nobody has ever spoken to me about God as you have done this morning, and you a working person." he suddenly grabbed my shoulders and planted a wet kiss on my cheek, God loves intellectual people, I pray he will be saved.

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God loves all people totton, some just choose to spurn His love… There’s nothing to be done for it but pray.

Anyway, I appreciate and understand your point (and agree), and I believe you understand mine. But, to decrease any chance of confusion (for the external listeners) I will keep it succinct; we were created as people of faith AND intellect. Both need to be used proportionally and as various matters arise, respecting the usage of each.

Few people had more faith than Paul. Conversely, few had more intellect than Paul. We all need to learn to use both…

Dee

#12 the totton linnet

the totton linnet

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 06:43 PM

God loves all people totton, some just choose to spurn His love… There’s nothing to be done for it but pray.

Anyway, I appreciate and understand your point (and agree), and I believe you understand mine. But, to decrease any chance of confusion (for the external listeners) I will keep it succinct; we were created as people of faith AND intellect. Both need to be used proportionally and as various matters arise, respecting the usage of each.

Few people had more faith than Paul. Conversely, few had more intellect than Paul. We all need to learn to use both…

Dee

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Where we are 100 per cent in agreement I am sure is in believing that each man and each woman will be held accountable for their [natural] faith and for their intellect according to their ability. Spurgeon used to infuriate the calvinists, although he was reckoned one himself, by saying that he believed fully in predestination AND he believed fully in man's freewill. So even though I believe man cannot be saved by his intellect, yet he is responsible for his blindness.
I certainly agreed with your apologetics post, and I appreciate yours and the others ministry here on this forum and other forums.




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