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Roger Ebert Reviews Expelled


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#1 TheJarJam

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 09:31 PM

http://blogs.suntime...teins_mind.html

I've added a lengthy comment and will likely add more. I was hoping some from here would be willing to go there and add their two cents to the discussion. It's very hostile, as usual.

#2 Adam Nagy

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 12:40 PM

http://blogs.suntime...teins_mind.html

I've added a lengthy comment and will likely add more. I was hoping some from here would be willing to go there and add their two cents to the discussion. It's very hostile, as usual.

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I wouldn't even know where to begin. If evolution isn't a religion, it sure makes people act like it is. :blink:

It's funny how evolutionists are so certain that the debate is over but they pull out their most emotional and condescending arguments, so the hope is there, that people feel stupid for even considering what this whole ID and God thing is all about. Like He is some new fringe concept like:

Heaven's Gate
Posted Image

The best smoke screen I enjoy is how forcefully and loudly and frequently evolutionists demand that there is no debate. :) They sound like they should be thanked for taking on the thankless task of reminding the world that everyone believes Darwin.

With everyone believing in Darwinian Evolution there are like 6 or 7 people in the entire country and 10 or 11 people in the world who make a lot of thoughtless noise. :)

#3 JudyV

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 02:04 PM

I wouldn't even know where to begin. If evolution isn't a religion, it sure makes people act like it is. <_<

It's funny how evolutionists are so certain that the debate is over but they pull out their most emotional and condescending arguments, ... *snip*

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This isn't the first time I've heard you say the "evolutionists" use emotional arguments.

Could you provide us with an example of an "evolutionist" argument that is emotional, in your opinion?

#4 Adam Nagy

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 02:59 PM

This isn't the first time I've heard you say the "evolutionists" use emotional arguments.

Could you provide us with an example of an "evolutionist" argument that is emotional, in your opinion?

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Richard Dawkins - "It is absolutely safe to say that if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid or insane"

The number of Dawkin's poor analogies that I see to defend evolution and godlessness is enough evidence to show me that he is a card carrying clergy member for the evolutionists.

I've watched a few of Eugene Scott’s seminars to see that she is quite the snarker.

Look at how well mannered your friends are:

http://www.evolution...indpost&p=19759

The link on the original post of this thread gives a nice snapshot of “rational discussion”

FRDB is a hotbed of no non-sense straight talk <_<

...but you'll say; these people don't represent you. They're the closest association you have for what you believe. They are the top brass for silencing anything that goes against evolution or just deterring people from examining the evidence with their rhetoric.

#5 JudyV

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 03:31 PM

Richard Dawkins - "It is absolutely safe to say that if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid or insane"

The number of Dawkin's poor analogies that I see to defend evolution and godlessness is enough evidence to show me that he is a card carrying clergy member for the evolutionists.

I've watched a few of Eugene Scott’s seminars to see that she is quite the snarker.

Look at how well mannered your friends are:

http://www.evolution...indpost&p=19759

The link on the original post of this thread gives a nice snapshot of “rational discussion”

FRDB is a hotbed of no non-sense straight talk  <_<

...but you'll say; these people don't represent you. They're the closest association you have for what you believe. They are the top brass for silencing anything that goes against evolution or just deterring people from examining the evidence with their rhetoric.

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You've given me examples of people being rude to those who don't agree with them. Is that what you meant by "emotional arguments for evolution?" I completely misunderstood you, then. I thought you meant the arguments themselves were based on emotions, not that people were getting emotional when delivering certain arguments. My bad.

Which means nothing, to me. So what if Dawkins calls creationists names. Is it any worse than fundamentalists telling us we're all going to hell? Neither side is innocent of using these kinds of tactics. It's human nature to get emotional and snide and sarcastic. I could give you plenty of examples of both sides getting emotional.

Now, when it comes to supporting arguments based on emotions, I think fundamentalists Christians have pretty much cornered the market on that.

Examples:

1 - I get sort of scared and angry when I think that I may not survive my own death; therefore I will believe in an afterlife.

2 - It really makes me feel good to think there is a heavenly Father who watches over me and cares about me. Therefore I will believe in a heavenly Father.

3 - It's so unfair that bad people who mistreat their fellow human beings might get away with it. Therefore I will believe in a hell that they can go to after they die and be punished for eternity.

See? All those emotions, used to justify beliefs.

Now, what emotional reasons do we have to believe that evolution happened?

#6 scott

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 06:49 PM

You've given me examples of people being rude to those who don't agree with them.  Is that what you meant by "emotional arguments for evolution?"  I completely misunderstood you, then.  I thought you meant the arguments themselves were based on emotions, not that people were getting emotional when delivering certain arguments.  My bad.

Which means nothing, to me.  So what if Dawkins calls creationists names.  Is it any worse than fundamentalists telling us we're all going to hell?  Neither side is innocent of using these kinds of tactics.  It's human nature to get emotional and snide and sarcastic.  I could give you plenty of examples of both sides getting emotional.

Now, when it comes to supporting arguments based on emotions, I think fundamentalists Christians have pretty much cornered the market on that.

Examples:

1 - I get sort of scared and angry when I think that I may not survive my own death; therefore I will believe in an afterlife.

2 - It really makes me feel good to think there is a heavenly Father who watches over me and cares about me.  Therefore I will believe in a heavenly Father.

3 - It's so unfair that bad people who mistreat their fellow human beings might get away with it.  Therefore I will believe in a hell that they can go to after they die and be punished for eternity.

See?  All those emotions, used to justify beliefs.

Now, what emotional reasons do we have to believe that evolution happened?

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Yes, and atheist think they are rational, and stronger for not believeing in God. Atheist think that they are emotionally stronger because they don't consider themselves to be as sheep. Atheist like to label christians as being flock natured, and they think Christians do not have the loner ability. Atheist are just too cool to believe in God.

#7 CTD

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 02:00 AM

http://blogs.suntime...teins_mind.html

I've added a lengthy comment and will likely add more. I was hoping some from here would be willing to go there and add their two cents to the discussion. It's very hostile, as usual.

View Post

Thanks for the link, JJ. Can't say I'll be posting anything over there. It's quite the hatefest. Impressive in magnitude and intensity, but just the opposite when it comes to content. Same old irrational, unsupportable junk.

Sorriest part is, you can just see how easily they're led by the nose. It's a wonder there haven't been more Hitlers.

#8 JudyV

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 04:51 PM

Yes, and atheist think they are rational, and stronger for not believeing in God.  Atheist think that they are emotionally stronger because they don't consider themselves to be as sheep.  Atheist like to label christians as being flock natured, and they think Christians do not have the loner ability.  Atheist are just too cool to believe in God.

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Well, the last sentence is absolutely true, at least as far as I'm concerned. I am way to cool to ever believe in God. Yup.

#9 scott

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 05:24 PM

Well, the last sentence is absolutely true, at least as far as I'm concerned.  I am way to cool to ever believe in God.  Yup.

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Indeed it's all true.

#10 JudyV

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 06:30 PM

Indeed it's all true.

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I bet you've got a really interesting preconceived notion of what kind of person I am, Scott. You don't know me, but you seem to think I'm an arrogant, prideful person who doesn't need anyone.

Have you met any atheists IRL? Are any of your friends non-believers? I'm just curious, because you seem to have some kind of picture in your mind of what "atheist" looks like.

#11 Adam Nagy

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 09:06 PM

I bet you've got a really interesting preconceived notion of what kind of person I am, Scott.  You don't know me, but you seem to think I'm an arrogant, prideful person who doesn't need anyone.

Have you met any atheists IRL?  Are any of your friends non-believers?  I'm just curious, because you seem to have some kind of picture in your mind of what "atheist" looks like.

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Judy, what are you trying to get at? Why does Scott have to feel guilty for making a proper assessment?

Atheists love statistics until they reveal an unfavorable trend. It's interesting how much this Forum polices both sides of the argument here and I don't see any personal attacks on this forum. Sarcasm? a little. Some jesting, very little but insults? If people feel insulted here it's only because their ideas are being made to look incorrect.

I spent time at an OEC Forum and as much as they didn't like my position, they treated me with enough respect and like a brother.

Then you turn the page to atheistic and worldly forums and the only rule is try to make people that don't think like you look as stupid as possible through name calling, cursing, and ad hominem attacks.

Like the link that started this post: http://blogs.suntime...teins_mind.html

A couple of Judys and Julia Sweeneys don't upset the correct general understanding of what godlessness produces. I want to give you something to think about. Shyness and being introverted is just as much a result of pride as being arrogant and boastful. Think about it.

#12 JudyV

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 09:06 AM

Judy, what are you trying to get at? Why does Scott have to feel guilty for making a proper assessment?

Atheists love statistics until they reveal an unfavorable trend. It's interesting how much this Forum polices both sides of the argument here and I don't see any personal attacks on this forum. Sarcasm? a little. Some jesting, very little but insults? If people feel insulted here it's only because their ideas are being made to look incorrect.

I spent time at an OEC Forum and as much as they didn't like my position, they treated me with enough respect and like a brother.

Then you turn the page to atheistic and worldly forums and the only rule is try to make people that don't think like you look as stupid as possible through name calling, cursing, and ad hominem attacks.

Like the link that started this post: http://blogs.suntime...teins_mind.html

A couple of Judys and Julia Sweeneys don't upset the correct general understanding of what godlessness produces. I want to give you something to think about. Shyness and being introverted is just as much a result of pride as being arrogant and boastful. Think about it.

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I think you're right, in general, free thinkers (I know you hate that term) don't seem to feel as constrained by politeness and niceties as Christians. But to me, it's just another form of hypocrisy and self-censorship. Like Ted H., looking so pious, while leading a secret g*y and addicted lifestyle. Or the nice Christian family dressing up in their Sunday best while at home the husband emotionally abuses his wife and kids. Or all those nice Christian girls picketing abortion clinics, right where they've recently had abortions themselves.

So I'll gladly admit that atheists can be a bit outspoken when confronted by what seems idiotic to them. I support their freedom of speech, and yours.

That has little to do with morality, however. I would wager to bet that you could line up a bunch of people, examine their lives, their kindness, their compassion, whether or not they do drugs, beat their kids, or cheat on their spouses, and have a very difficult time determining by these criteria whether they are Christians, another religion, or non-believers.

#13 Adam Nagy

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 09:20 AM

I would wager to bet that you could line up a bunch of people, examine their lives, their kindness, their compassion, whether or not they do drugs, beat their kids, or cheat on their spouses, and have a very difficult time determining by these criteria whether they are Christians, another religion, or non-believers.

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What standard do you intend on using for this test? What is good?

Should we call on Masters & Johnson?

I bet a close look at behavior by your standards would have deemed Marshell Applewhite a "gentle", "nice", and "good" guy.

http://www.evolution...indpost&p=21541

He certainly wasn't a hypocrite, by your standards (whatever that is), I bet.

#14 Adam Nagy

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 09:40 AM

I think you're right, in general, free thinkers (I know you hate that term)

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I don't hate it. I just think the level of effort used to keep a label pasted to your self that isn't true, is astonishing.

  ...But to me, it's just another form of hypocrisy and self-censorship.  Like Ted H., looking so pious, while leading a secret g*y and addicted lifestyle.  Or the nice Christian family dressing up in their Sunday best while at home the husband emotionally abuses his wife and kids.  Or all those nice Christian girls picketing abortion clinics, right where they've recently had abortions themselves.

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Is hypocracy a result of Christianity or more correctly a result of pride?

So I'll gladly admit that atheists can be a bit outspoken when confronted by what seems idiotic to them.

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I see the insults only start to fly when intelligence has left the building. It's like people who use cus words all the time. They want to say something profound but they can't do it intelligently so they use cus words to draw attention to themselves.

I support their freedom of speech, and yours.

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Do you support people that don't support free speech, like Eugene Scott? What about others who think the first amendment means separation of church and state even though it never says that?...

"Congress shall make no law (Except ones that liberals deem necessary) respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof (except in all public places like schools, court houses, and on the sidewalk, coming soon to a town near you);"

What an upside down nation...

...freedom of religion...

__________________...has turned into...

________________________________...freedom from religion...

#15 scott

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 10:09 AM

I don't hate it. I just think the level of effort used to keep a label pasted to your self that isn't true, is astonishing.
Is hypocracy a result of Christianity or more correctly a result of pride?
I see the insults only start to fly when intelligence has left the building. It's like people who use cus words all the time. They want to say something profound but they can't do it intelligently so they use cus words to draw attention to themselves.
Do you support people that don't support free speech, like Eugene Scott? What about others who think the first amendment means separation of church and state even though it never says that?...

"Congress shall make no law (Except ones that liberals deem necessary) respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof (except in all public places like schools, court houses, and on the sidewalk, coming soon to a town near you);"

What an upside down nation...

...freedom of religion...

__________________...has turned into...

________________________________...freedom from religion...

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Exactly, there is no seperation of church and state. Thats just liberal brainwashing. The government is definetly NOT allowed to prohibit the free exercise thereof! In fact, they cannot prohibit prayer in school, that is a violation of our rights as American citizens, but then again I don't care about any laws prohibiting what I can or cannot say. Because personally I will fight to the death to protect my God given, not Constitution given freedoms.

That's also another reason I am anti-liberal. Simply because liberals clearly do not understand the basics of human life or freedom. That does not mean that I do not respect the Constitution or my law given rights that (kind of) protects us. Because it is us who are responsible for protecting ourselves in the event of extremely dumb laws that might be passed by some liberal politician who doesn't understand the basic foundations of the Constitution or Common Sense.

Edit: The Constitution says that it will not make any law respecting a religious establishment. How does this mean that the government cannot support Churches with money if their is no law passed respecting or preventing it????

#16 Adam Nagy

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 10:12 AM

Exactly, there is no seperation of church and state. Thats just liberal brainwashing.  The government is definetly NOT allowed to prohibit the free exercise thereof!  In fact, they cannot prohibit prayer in school, that is a violation of our rights as American citizens, but then again I don't care about any laws prohibiting what I can or cannot say.  Because personally I will fight to the death to protect my God given, not Constitution given freedoms.

That's also another reason I am anti-liberal.  Simply because liberals clearly do not understand the basics of human life or freedom. That does not mean that I do not respect the Constitution or my law given rights that (kind of) protects us.  Because it is us who are responsible for protecting ourselves in the event of extremely dumb laws that might be passed by some liberal politician who doesn't understand the basic foundations of the Constitution or Common Sense.

Edit:  The Constitution says that it will not make any law respecting a religious establishment.  How does this mean that the government cannot support Churches with money if their is no law passed respecting or preventing it????

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At the risk of not looking like a "free-thinker" <_< I agree with you 110%

#17 JudyV

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 01:29 PM

All you guys need to do is imagine that instead of a Christian nation, the US was an Islamic nation. Let's say the public schools wanted to make your Christian kids pray to Allah 5 times a day while kneeling down and facing Mecca.

Well, that's kinda how it would be if the public schools were to make all the Jewish kids, and Muslim kids, not to mention my agnostic kids, say a prayer to Jesus before starting their school day.

Freedom from making our country endorse one particular religion at the exclusion of all others is a very good thing, in my opinion.

#18 Adam Nagy

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 01:54 PM

All you guys need to do is imagine that instead of a Christian nation, the US was an Islamic nation.  Let's say the public schools wanted to make your Christian kids pray to Allah 5 times a day while kneeling down and facing Mecca.

Well, that's kinda how it would be if the public schools were to make all the Jewish kids, and Muslim kids, not to mention my agnostic kids, say a prayer to Jesus before starting their school day.

Freedom from making our country endorse one particular religion at the exclusion of all others is a very good thing, in my opinion.

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Nobody should make anyone do anything. In fact Jesus commands us to be tolerant, friendly and loving towards unbelievers but not their ideas. That’s why Christian forums rightly police bad comments and bad behavior. There are real standards. However, if you find yourself surrounded by Christians who are practicing their Christianity in your presence or your kid’s presence and it makes you uncomfortable maybe atheists/agnostics should start their own country rather than calling the ACLU.

What about those attempts at godless nations?

Oh wait, there were several attempts to make atheist/agnostic countries in the 20th century. Does anyone here remember how those experiments worked out? I'm drawing a blank. :blink:

Edit: Christianity is your best friend for freedom even as an unbeliever. Atheism logically leads to Anarchy and then to totalitarianism. I don’t care how nice Julia Sweeney is.

#19 JudyV

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 04:05 PM

Nobody should make anyone do anything. In fact Jesus commands us to be tolerant, friendly and loving towards unbelievers but not their ideas. That’s why Christian forums rightly police bad comments and bad behavior. There are real standards. However, if you find yourself surrounded by Christians who are practicing their Christianity in your presence or your kid’s presence and it makes you uncomfortable maybe atheists/agnostics should start their own country rather than calling the ACLU.

What about those attempts at godless nations?

Oh wait, there were several attempts to make atheist/agnostic countries in the 20th century. Does anyone here remember how those experiments worked out? I'm drawing a blank. :blink:

Edit: Christianity is your best friend for freedom even as an unbeliever. Atheism logically leads to Anarchy and then to totalitarianism. I don’t care how nice Julia Sweeney is.

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Sorry, Adam, the attempts of Christians to link communism to atheism have been very soundly refuted. I don't think you've studied history nearly as thoroughly as you keep claiming you have.

I've mentioned this over and over, but you never give much credit to the fact that Japan is a secular nation, where most people practice no religion whatsoever, especially not Christianity, yet statistically there is less crime there than in the US, where the majority of citizens are professing Christians.

So your weird statement that atheism logically leads to anarchy and totalitarianism is just not true. In other words, you are repeating lies. I prefer honesty, myself, but whatever.

#20 Adam Nagy

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 04:26 PM

Sorry, Adam, the attempts of Christians to link communism to atheism have been very soundly refuted.  I don't think you've studied history nearly as thoroughly as you keep claiming you have.

I've mentioned this over and over, but you never give much credit to the fact that Japan is a secular nation, where most people practice no religion whatsoever, especially not Christianity, yet statistically there is less crime there than in the US, where the majority of citizens are professing Christians.

So your weird statement that atheism logically leads to anarchy and totalitarianism is just not true.  In other words, you are repeating lies.  I prefer honesty, myself, but whatever.

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So you take Japan and ignore the results of people like:

Joseph Stalin

Pol Pot

...and many others to bolster a case that is over shadowed by horrible atrocities in the name of Godlessness.

At least you're consistent. Cherry pick the evidence for Evolution and Cherry pick the evidence for Atheism. Convenient, Sis :blink:

Remember the difference between horrible Christians and horrible atheists? Horrible Christians committing atrocities are violating their base beliefs while claiming to support them. Atheists violate nothing because everyone makes their own meaning. If you can get away with it... do it. The only rule is there are no rules.

We wouldn't want to break the sacred "Free-Thought" covenant. The covenant without a covenant.




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