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Osas Or No-osas

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#61 ikester7579



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Posted 19 January 2009 - 03:19 PM


Since it looks like this thread is about to fizzle out, or get closed, I'd like to provide the answers to the questions that you seem to not want to answer.

Question #1: How many of your sins were still in the future when Christ was on the cross?

Answer #1: All of them.

Do you believe in predestinaton? The reason I ask is because choice can change this. Choice removed after salvation makes salvation itself predestined. Which takes the osas doctrine one step closer to those doctrines that believe this. And no that is not a label. I'm just pointing out how simular things are.

Question #2: Did Christ's death pay for those sins?

Answer #2: Yes.

Agreed. We were bought with a price. The price was Christ's death and suffering. Here is some interesting facts about this. Christ's blood was shed in the same order of sin and curses.

1) The first sin was committed in a garden.
Christ's first shedding of blood to cover the first sin was also in a garden where he prayed.
2 and 3) God cursed the land with thorns and thickets, and said that man would have to work by the sweat of the brow to survive.
Christ's crown was made with those same thorns and thickets, the blood from that crown ran across His brow.
4) God cursed man with all kinds of diseases when the Pharoah went up against Moses.
Christ took 39 stripes to cover all manner of diseases and sicknesses.

Question #3: How many of your sins were forgiven when you accepted Christ as your savior?

Answer #3: All of them.

Right, but this is also where a lot of people get it wrong. Christ's blood was shed "once" to forgive all sin (including blasphemy) so that we could accept His free gift. After this, it is God's grace and mercy that forgives us. To always pray the blood upon things after you are saved makes Christ an ongoing sacrafice (a Catholic belief).

In other words, the blood was shed to make you perfect and clean enough to "enter the covenent". It is no longer required afterwards because once in the body, we are surrounded by His blood. So we are continually covered. That is why Christ said on the cross: it is finished So basically, the blood was shed to get us in the covenant, it is not needed (to pray it over stuff) to maintain us was there. This is why this verse says what it says:

Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Christ is not going to crawl back on the cross for someone who by choice, fell away on purpose.

Question #4: What did Christ say among his last words just before he died, and what did He mean by it? Hint: It's a Greek word translated, "It is finished."

Answer #4: Tetelestai. It means "it is finished," "paid in full."


Question #5: Assuming you are right, and a person can lose his salvation, can he regain it again? How many times can that cycle occur?

Answer #5: I haven't the first clue. The Bible doesn't say. I was hoping you would answer that for me.

I already have. But I'll search back through my posts as I am writting thi to bring it here so you can read it again. But before I do, it is not sin an fall away. It's how you did it, why you did it, and if you knew it was wrong and refused to repent. And in Hebrews 6:1-6 it explains a sin that once done cannot be undone, and it's not blasphemy either. That type of falling away means you had:
1) Most all the knowledge there was to give (they knew better so there is no excuse).
2) Had experienced all the gifts to be given.

And after all of that, rejected it. The Bible states that this type of falling away puts Christ, and what He did on the cross to open shame. Which means the forgiveness for this would have to be Christ going to the cross again. That is not going to heppen because Christ is not an ongoing sacrafice.

So it's not so much just sin. It's way more complicated. By the way, the sin spoke of in Hebrews 6:1-6, most Christians will never get there. That level of faith requires total dedication on a level like a prophet.

Now to understand the difference between falling away and erring from the truth:

Err from truth:
James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;

20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Bretheren means he is talking to the saved, And having o convert them confirms how far one can go when they err. So why is erring from truth so bad?

jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Erring from the truth means that you knew the truth and decided to believe in a lie instead. That is considered rejecting God.

Fall away:
lk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

You see in this verse it does not say that anyone needs to be converted. It just says they fell away. Now why would who are new in Christ (have no root) and go astray be considered falling away, while those who err from truth can lose their salvation? It goes back to this verse:

jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

The key to who loses salvation through sin is knowledge of that sin.

1) You err from truth means you knew better but did it anyway and did not repent or ask for forgivness. So you had the knowledge, but rejected it.

2) If you fall away, you had not this knowledge and therefore cannot be held accounable for sins you knew not of. Like when the new in Christ fall because they do not have the knowledge of the Bible to strengthem their faith, and that would have allowed them to resist temptation. How can they be condemned of what they knew not of?

So it's not like you present No-osas to be. Where any sin makes you lose salvation. It's the "knowledge" of that sin that makes it a sin. And your refusal to repent of it or ask forgiveness. God's grace can only cover so much. This is because once you use your life to mock God through sin, then grace and forgiveness is no more.

And when grace and forgiveness is no more and you dies in your sin. You stand before Christ and he see's your sin which makes you a goat. Not because your a sunsaved sinner, but still having salvation, becoming a goat for atonement upon the fire is the only way left for you to enter heaven.

OK. The reason why these questions are important is because if you deny eternal security you deny Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

Really? I deny what christ did on the cross? Please explain.

Christ died on the cross for your sins long before you were born. All of them! Every single one! Every sin that you have committed, are now committing, and will ever commit. With almost his last dying breath he said, "It is finished! Paid in full!"

You are implying predestination, which is a Calvinist belief. As long as there is choice, the choice controls what happens.

It becomes up to you to receive by faith Christ's sacrifice and payment for your sins. So, how many of your sins are forgiven when your accept Christ? A few? Some of them? Only the small ones? Only the big ones? No. All of them! Every single one! Past, present and future.

So now you imply that I am not saved? Please explain.

Can you commit a sin now that God didn't know about before you were born, and that Christ didn't already die for? No. To think that you can makes a mockery of Christ's sacrifice.

Predestination again.

Isaac, I believe that you would have answered the first four questions exactly like I did, and you then would have struggled to answer the fifth one in light of the first four because you would have drawn the same obvious conclusion as I did. But, you just wouldn't have wanted to admit it.


No, you misunderstand. The reason why some of the wording in the Bible sounds like predetination, is that eternity works different than non-eternity. To us (beings that only know non-eternity), the only logical way to explain what we read is to interpretate a predestined life. But God does not run a matrix, where all his created beings are puppets. And there are several reasons for this.

1) How can we be judged for a life we were predestined to live? Like if you were born predestined to murder someone, then how can you stand trial for it if you had not control over it? In other words, who's fault is it if you have no choice or free will? This is just like the logic used by those who believe in evolution. I am an animal, how do yu expect me to act? I reverted back to my animal instincts. etc... I'm predestined, so I have no control over my life. Same difference.

2) This type of control like puppets also means there is a puppet master. which connects the puppet master unto all our sins, which makes us not responsible for them. Because we do not act until the puppet master pulls our string, right? So your continous implying of a predestined life does not work because we can always claim that if our life was not predetined, we would not have done these things. Because predestined salvation also equals predestined sin.

Question: If Adam and Eve were created predestined to sin, then why was a snake needed to tempt them? And why did the snake have to reason with them to get them to sin if the choice was already predestined to them to do so?

Here is a good example of how Satan can use predetination against you. Now before I give the example, I need to ask a question. Being that the word says that it will never return void. Do you think that predetination can be used to do total evil by Satan to totally commit people to be eternally damned with no way out?

You remember the The blasphemy challenge (link)? What is it that they are relying on for their main theme to work? Predetination to hell. They believe that if they can get people (saved or unsaved) to commit blasphemy. they will be predestined to hell. Now, if predestination is so rightous, please explain how the Satan can take what is not supposed to be void, and make it void to do his will instead?

So if predestnation is of God, how is Satan so good at using the same thing when the real truth of God can never be void?

Example: Salvation is of God and does not come back void right? Now what would you think of salvation if Satan could use it by saying: Get saved for Satan? Would not be right would it? But yet predestnation is okay to be used by Satan in the same manner?

#62 Dave



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Posted 19 January 2009 - 04:38 PM


OK. It looks like our OSAS/non-OSAS discussion is going to swirl around and drop down the drain into the new topic of predestination vs. free will.

That's a topic that I have never participated in here, and I don't intend to now.

Unlike, eternal security, I believe that the biblical issues of predestination, election and free will can not be so clearly exposited in the Bible. I'm not saying that God is the author of confusion. I'm saying that man's finite mind just simply cannot understand how predestination, election and free will can work together to accomplish God's will.

I appreciate what the very respected Bible commentator Henry Morris says about it:

Romans 8:29

8:29 foreknow. God’s “foreknowledge” is much more than just having prescience of what will happen in the future, but its full meaning is beyond our finite comprehension. That foreknowledge precedes election is evident from I Peter 1:2, and that it precedes predestination is evident from this verse. The same word (Greek proginosko) is translated “foreordained” in I Peter 1:20, where it clearly speaks of more than merely knowing ahead of time what will happen.

Note also Acts 2:23, speaking of Christ as being delivered to be crucified “by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God,” and Acts 15:18, which reveals that “known unto God are all His works from the beginning of the world.” His works surely were not planned merely by His foreknowledge of what they would be!

Similarly, God “foreknew” that Israel would be His people (Romans 11:2), yet He later chose them by His own will. It clearly suggests planning ahead of time, not just knowing ahead of time. Nothing takes God by surprise; His decisions are not determined by our decisions. Yet in every case where God’s planning and predestinating are involved (e.g., Acts 2:23), it is also true those who acted according to His foreknowledge carried out those acts of their own volition.

He promises that “Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Romans 10:13). Yet He also says that “He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world” (Ephesians 1:4).

Our finite minds cannot fully apprehend both truths concurrently, yet we can rejoice in both with our hearts! God understands, because His understanding is infinite, and we rest in that.

Romans 8:29

8:29 image of his Son. Those whom God has foreknown, and who have therefore come to Christ when God called, will one day be so transformed as to be like Christ Himself (Philippians 3:21; I John 3:2), with the family resemblance as His brethren. This is our pre-destiny!

I believe that the predestination vs. free will argument is very much like the Calvinist vs. Arminian argument: Both sides call up scripture that support their beliefs, and ignore scripture that doesn't. However, all of God's word should be sufficient for our learning. Right?

So what's the problem here? Can't one side be right and the other wrong? Not in this case. It's not God's fault. It's the limitations of our minds to be able to comprehend His mind. Predestination is biblical and part of God's plan. And so is free will. I'm just a bear of very little brain. So, it's too much for me to think about. :D

Predestination, election and free will are all clearly a part of God's word. Those who think they have it pegged that one or the other applies, and one or the other doesn't, are working from a worldview, preconceived ideas, biases and, possibly, even an agenda, that falls woefully short of God's understanding.

OK. So where does that leave our eternal security discussion here? If it's going to become a predestination discussion, you'll have to carry on without me. Sorry.

If you'd like to declare yourself the winner of the eternal security discussion because I stepped out of the ring when you brought up your predestination weapons, that's OK too. At this point, I've made all the points about eternal security I can think of anyway, without repeating myself. So, it's time to take a break.


#63 ikester7579



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Posted 19 January 2009 - 05:22 PM

Predetination is apart of eternal security for the pacific reason that once you become saved, you are predestined for Heaven, right? So where did I sway off topic? You keep implying predestination in your posts, so I addressed it. If you would not have, I would not have addressed it.

So don't be trying to reverse the guilt here.

Note: Predetination and secure salvation is 90% of what makes Calvinism work. I don't know why you cannot see that.

Also, would you say I'm predestined for heaven or hell since I disagree with you?

If you'd like to declare yourself the winner of the eternal security discussion because I stepped out of the ring when you brought up your predestination weapons, that's OK too.

Winner? Is that what this is all about is a contest to win? Tell me, what do you win if you out debate someone who steps out? Nothing. Remember, I tried to stop the debate earlier. If you cannot comprehend that the whole debate was about finding truth on some level, then now know why you would never answer my content in my posts and accused me of rabbit trails. Actually addressing the content would have made you not win debate you were intent on winning. Man, I'm glad you pointed out this was a winner-loser debate. Now I understand.

I've made all the points about eternal security I can think of anyway, without repeating myself. So, it's time to take a break.

Repeat yoursef? Do you know how many times I have had to repreat myself because you refuse to read? And now you complain?

#64 ikester7579



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Posted 19 January 2009 - 08:27 PM

It is more than apparent that the thread will not move beyond this point. Two bull headed Christians can't debate and find truth. And I myself am tired of the debate to continue as Dave has also expressed.

But if smeone wants to start another, that is fine.

Thread closed.

#65 Fred Williams

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 09:24 PM

About the slight shift in topic that got introduced with your post. I believe that what you brought up is interesting, so I'm wondering if you would want to start a different thread on it.

View Post

Done! Here it tis:


(note from the previous post above that this OSAS thread has been closed)


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