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Predestination & Free Will


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#221 Teejay

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 11:08 PM

[quote] name='Tubal' timestamp='1336200021' post='83661']
People seem to miss what predestination implies. If we have no free will then how can God fairly judge us if ultimately it is not our choice to obey him? Where there is no freedom there can be no sin. Predestination can be used to argue some scary things.[/quote]

Tubal,.

Augustine, the culprit responsible for planting this pagan Greek fatalism into Christianity, did exactly that. He argued that his bad teeth came from God and not from his own bad dental hygene. And he attributed his own sin as predestined by God. Pre-destination can't be defended theologically or logically.

[quote]Though God's ways are above our ways as the heavens are as far from the earth we do know his nature from his word.
What is not found there in is lies of the enemy.
[/quote]

Yes, God's ways are higher than our ways; but they are not lower than our ways. It's a sick theology that posits that God would predestine anyone to an eternity in Hell.

TeeJay

#222 Dig4gold

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 03:35 PM

I may have a unique understanding on this topic. I should tell a little of my background first. I was raised as a Baptist and for most of my life have held that faith. More than a decade ago I was interested in the Messianic movement and found a local congregation. Since that time I consider my faith closer to Judaism than Christian, given the larger meanings of those terms.

I still believe that Yeshua (Jesus) is the Messiah and I do place my trust in Him alone. Having said that, you may understand more where my opinion comes from on this issue. And believe it or not it is a very short answer.

In Romans 8:29 we are told that the ones that He foreknew He also predestined.

For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

So in a mathematical like fashion if we can identify those whom He foreknew we would also know who He predestined. Rabbi Paul continues…

Romans 11:1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, [a]a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.

So it seems that Israel is in focus as the people who were foreknown and therefore predestined.

Of course this would include people from the nations that join themselves to the believing remnant of Israel (one body).
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#223 Teejay

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 05:13 PM

I may have a unique understanding on this topic. I should tell a little of my background first. I was raised as a Baptist and for most of my life have held that faith. More than a decade ago I was interested in the Messianic movement and found a local congregation. Since that time I consider my faith closer to Judaism than Christian, given the larger meanings of those terms.

I still believe that Yeshua (Jesus) is the Messiah and I do place my trust in Him alone. Having said that, you may understand more where my opinion comes from on this issue. And believe it or not it is a very short answer.

In Romans 8:29 we are told that the ones that He foreknew He also predestined.

For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;


So in a mathematical like fashion if we can identify those whom He foreknew we would also know who He predestined. Rabbi Paul continues…

Romans 11:1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, [a]a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.

So it seems that Israel is in focus as the people who were foreknown and therefore predestined.

Of course this would include people from the nations that join themselves to the believing remnant of Israel (one body).

Dig,

How can God know someone who does not exist?

TeeJay

#224 Dig4gold

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 06:11 PM

Teejay, How could an omnipotent God not know? 

 

I'm assuming that you mean does not exist yet. If not I'm lost on your point.

 

Was there an objection to Israel being predestined?



#225 Adam Nagy

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 05:33 AM

Dig,

How can God know someone who does not exist?

TeeJay

I don't know the mechanics of it but The Lord evidently does...

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations. (Jeremiah 1:5 NKJV)

I still never got an answer to... Is time in God or is God in time?

#226 Teejay

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 03:14 PM

Teejay, How could an omnipotent God not know? 

 

I'm assuming that you mean does not exist yet. If not I'm lost on your point.

 

Was there an objection to Israel being predestined?

 

Dig,

 

Omnipotence is a quantitative attribute of God.  I'm sure you meant to say omniscience which means all knowing.  I will agree that God knows everything knowable that He wants to know. But God can't possibly know a human until he exists.  Many Christians use "I knew you when you were yet unformed."  But before Crick and Watson cracked the DNA code, this passage was a little unclear.  Since God wrote the DNA code, He could look into the womb--if he wanted to--and read the code and know exactly what kind of man was growing there.

I have no objection to a nation being predestined.  God had great plans for Israel.  Through Israel the Messiah would come.  Israel was to be given a earthly kingdom with Jesus sitting on King David's throne in Jerusalem ruling the world.  Israel was to be God's evangelical nation to the world.  As there were three witnesses in the Ark of the Covenant (also called the Ark of Testimony), so too, Israel was to go to the world with three witnesses.  In the Ark, there were two tablets of stone (law), Aaron's rod which bloomed (miraculous), and Manna (Jesus the bread from heaven).  If Israel had accepted their risen Christ, God would have sent them to the world with three witnesses:  the law, the miracles, and Jesus Christ.  (God seems to like the number three.)

 

But none of what God had planned for Israel has yet taken place.  For starters, the Twelve were unsuccessful in evangelizing the nation of Israel, let alone nations.  Israel's response to the preaching of the Twelve was to stone Stephen to death and then kill them.  God cut off Israel.  Recall in the "potter and the clay" scenario, God warned Israel:  "If I say that I will give you a kingdom and you do evil in my sight, I will repent and not give you the kingdom I said I would [paraphrased]."  Just like a good father who promises to take his son to Disney Land finds out that his son has done some wicked thing.  A good dad will not reward the son by taking him to Disney Land.

 

I have no problem with God deciding in advance what He will do with a nation.  But I will never accept the notion that God knows or predestines who will accept or reject Him.  God may prophesy what may happen to a nation, but this has nothing to do with salvation.  Most often when God prophesies that He will destroy a nation, He really does not want the prophesy to occur.  Nineveh is a good example.

 

TeeJay 



#227 Teejay

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 03:21 PM

I don't know the mechanics of it but The Lord evidently does...

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations. (Jeremiah 1:5 NKJV)

I still never got an answer to... Is time in God or is God in time?

 

Adam,

 

When you're in your mother's womb, you exist.  Since God can read the DNA code (He wrote it), He can know you.  But before your mother's egg was fertilized with your father's sperm, you did not exist.  God can't possibly know the unknowable--that which does not exist..

 

TeeJay



#228 Teejay

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 03:25 PM

I may have a unique understanding on this topic. I should tell a little of my background first. I was raised as a Baptist and for most of my life have held that faith. More than a decade ago I was interested in the Messianic movement and found a local congregation. Since that time I consider my faith closer to Judaism than Christian, given the larger meanings of those terms.

I still believe that Yeshua (Jesus) is the Messiah and I do place my trust in Him alone. Having said that, you may understand more where my opinion comes from on this issue. And believe it or not it is a very short answer.

In Romans 8:29 we are told that the ones that He foreknew He also predestined.

For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

So in a mathematical like fashion if we can identify those whom He foreknew we would also know who He predestined. Rabbi Paul continues…

Romans 11:1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, [a]a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.

So it seems that Israel is in focus as the people who were foreknown and therefore predestined.

Of course this would include people from the nations that join themselves to the believing remnant of Israel (one body).

 

Dig,

Which apostle do you place yourself under, Peter or Paul?  Are you saved by grace (faith plus nothing) or by the law (faith plus works)?

 

Just curious?

 

TeeJay



#229 Adam Nagy

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 04:29 PM

Adam,
 
When you're in your mother's womb, you exist.  Since God can read the DNA code (He wrote it), He can know you.  But before your mother's egg was fertilized with your father's sperm, you did not exist.  God can't possibly know the unknowable--that which does not exist..
 
TeeJay


Teejay, It says "Before I formed you..." ;)

#230 Teejay

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 09:06 PM

Teejay, It says "Before I formed you..." wink.png


Adam, I agree: "I knew you when you were yet unformed."  But will you agree that it does not say that "I knew you when you did not exist?"  Before you answer, you may want to do a little research.  The teaching that God knows us in the spirit before implantation in the womb comes from pagan theology and cults like the Mormons.  I'm not sure of the JW's?  Now I will admit that God can probably read the DNA code in the mother's egg and the father's seed before implantation and read it and tell much about what kind of person will develop:  hair color, eyes, build, and so on.  But He can't possibly give you freedom to choose and know whether you will choose to love or hate Him.  That is not possible even for God.  Now He can read your mind and know what you will do in the next moment, but how can He know what you will do 20 years from now?  He was pleasantly surprised when Nineveh repented in sack cloth and ashes.  But He was also unpleasantly  surprised at the wickedness of Israel:  "It never entered My mind that you would become this evil, sacrificing your children to fire gods [paraphrased]."  Just think about that for a minute:  God never knew Israel would become that evil.  Wow!

 

TeeJay



#231 Dig4gold

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 06:04 AM

TJ, God knew every person before the world began.

TJ, I am not under either Peter, Paul or Mary for that matter. I am under Messiah Yeshua.

I Cor 1: 11 For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe’s people, that there are quarrels among you. 12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.” 13 [a]Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized [b]in the name of Paul?

#232 Adam Nagy

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 07:25 AM

Dig, that doesn't fit with Teejay's worldview, so scripture must yield to what he believes... oh wait! That's not how that's supposed to work... ;)

#233 Teejay

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 08:01 AM

TJ, God knew every person before the world began.


Scripture please.  This belief, that we are spirits awaiting to inhabit physical bodies, comes from the Easter pagan religions.  Joseph Smith taught this.  It is not Christian.  

TJ,

I am not under either Peter, Paul or Mary for that matter. I am under Messiah Yeshua.



We are saved by Jesus Christ.  Jesus Christ is the Head of the Body.  Paul is an appointed apostle "to the Gentiles."  As such, God gave him the authority of an apostle to lay down the guidelines by which the Body will function.  Peter was appointed by Jesus as the head apostle over the Twelve (who would rule over the Twelve Tribes of Israel).  As such, Peter was given authority over the eleven other apostles.

So let me ask my question this way.  Are you a citizen of Israel?  Or, are you a member of the Body of Christ.  Now before you answer, the law of non-contradiction will not allow both.

I Cor 1: 11 For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe’s people, that there are quarrels among you. 12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.” 13 [a]Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized [b]in the name of Paul?



If you answer these two questions, you will have the answer as to why there were doctrinal disputes at the time of Peter and Paul and today:

Did Peter have to circumcise?  Did Paul have to circumcise?

TeeJay


#234 Dig4gold

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 08:39 AM

TJ: Are you a citizen of Israel? Or, are you a member of the Body of Christ. Now before you answer, the law of non-contradiction will not allow both.
 

Both, whay would that be a contradiction?

 

Eph 2: 11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, [i]excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off [j]have been brought near [k]by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the [l]barrier of the dividing wall

 

 

Eph 4: 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

 

 

If the gentiles are now a part of the commonwealth of Israel and there is only one body of God then where is your point? It really is very clear and explicit.

 

Notice that in the Ephesians 2 verses that I quoted Paul used the term "Circumcision" to apply to the people and not the actual cutting of the flesh. So when Paul says that you are not to be circumcised he could be saying to the gentiles that they do not have to become Jewish to be a part of the body of Messiah. In any case it certainly does apply to haveing to perform any ritual to be saved. After that we are to live a godly life according to His Word - read Ephesians 4.



#235 Teejay

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 07:07 PM

TJ: Are you a citizen of Israel? Or, are you a member of the Body of Christ. Now before you answer, the law of non-contradiction will not allow both.
 

Both, whay would that be a contradiction?

 

Eph 2: 11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, [i]excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off [j]have been brought near [k]by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the [l]barrier of the dividing wall

 

 

Eph 4: 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

 

 

If the gentiles are now a part of the commonwealth of Israel and there is only one body of God then where is your point? It really is very clear and explicit.

 

Notice that in the Ephesians 2 verses that I quoted Paul used the term "Circumcision" to apply to the people and not the actual cutting of the flesh. So when Paul says that you are not to be circumcised he could be saying to the gentiles that they do not have to become Jewish to be a part of the body of Messiah. In any case it certainly does apply to haveing to perform any ritual to be saved. After that we are to live a godly life according to His Word - read Ephesians 4.



Dig, does Eph. 2:22 say we became a part of Israel or does it say that both groups have been brought near by the blood of Jesus?  We have not been grafted into Israel.  Why would God graft us into a nation that He has cut off.  Why don't you get this?

 

TeeJay



#236 Dig4gold

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 09:26 AM

TJ: Why would God graft us into a nation that He has cut off.

Has God rejected His people? Paul says no! I say no!

Jer 31:35-36 35 Thus says the Lord,
Who gives the sun for light by day
And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar;
The Lord of hosts is His name:
36 “If this fixed order departs
From before Me,” declares the Lord,
“Then the offspring of Israel also will cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”

Remember that "some" of the branches were cut off not "all" of them. There always remains a remnant of Israel that believes in the Lord and there always will be. So while the majority of Israel is cut off with unbelief not all of them are.

As long as the sun is still in the sky God will always have His chosen nation Israel and His chosen people the redeemed of the Lord.

#237 Fred Williams

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 01:27 PM

Dig, that doesn't fit with Teejay's worldview, so scripture must yield to what he believes... oh wait! That's not how that's supposed to work... wink.png

 

Would you be willing to go tit-for-tat with me on this, each of us present one verse at a time, and keep track of who's view fits the literal meaning? I was in your camp a few years ago. But I kept losing the debate, by leaps and bounds. unsure.png I kept having to re-interpret the plain meaning of scripture into an allegory or something else. Yet God says His Word is "plain to him who understands" (Prov 8:8), and completely sufficient for the simple to understand (Psalms 119:130). What do you say, you want to give this a shot?



#238 Dig4gold

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 03:44 PM

I might consider it if you could tell me how to please God without obeying the Tanach (OT). Just one would be fine.

#239 Teejay

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 04:01 PM

I might consider it if you could tell me how to please God without obeying the Tanach (OT). Just one would be fine.

 

Dig,

You please God by reading Paul and understanding that as a member of the Body of Christ, you are not under the Tanach.  When you recover from an illness, I hope you don't go to the Rabbi and make the sacrifice commanded by Moses (a turtledove)?

 

TeeJay



#240 Teejay

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 04:51 PM

Would you be willing to go tit-for-tat with me on this, each of us present one verse at a time, and keep track of who's view fits the literal meaning? I was in your camp a few years ago. But I kept losing the debate, by leaps and bounds. unsure.png I kept having to re-interpret the plain meaning of scripture into an allegory or something else. Yet God says His Word is "plain to him who understands" (Prov 8:8), and completely sufficient for the simple to understand (Psalms 119:130). What do you say, you want to give this a shot?

 

Fred, the reason you accepted the truth of TG is that you were intellectually honest, humbled yourself, and accepted the fact that a straight forward reading of Scripture does not support the OG.  Not once in all the years I have been debating this subject have I received a comeback that was not a reinterpretation of what the word clearly says.  We can see this here where I asked Dig if God grafted us into Israel or into Christ?  And I asked why God would grafted us into a nation that was cut off?

Ephesians 2:11 could not be more clear:  First, Paul is writing to Gentiles (Ephesians) who are members of the Body of Christ.  This is important!  "Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh--who are called uncircumcision by what is called the circumcision made in the flesh by hands--that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.  But now in Christ [not Israel] you who were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.  For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one [in Jesus, not in Israel], and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, SO AS TO CREATE IN HIMSELF [IN HIMSELF, IN HIMSELF, IN HIMSELF] ONE NEW MAN FROM THE TWO [ONE NEW MAN FROM THE TWO, ONE NEW MAN FROM THE TWO, ONE NEW MAN FROM THE TWO], THUS MAKING PEACE"  (Eph.  2:11-15).

Paul would have to use crayons to make it more clear that we are not part of Israel, we were not grafted into Israel, and both Gentiles and Jews are "one new man" in Himself, in the Body of christ, in Christ (not Israel).  I would put these verses of Paul here in neon if I thought it would do any good.

Dig, if you accept this Scripture with a straight forward reading (Exegesis), you won't have to search the Tanach for a verse to please God.  You will place yourself under the authority of your apostle Paul, and you will be pleasing God by walking in the Spirit and not in the flesh (under the law).  By the law no flesh shall be justified.  The law is not of faith, and without faith, it is impossible to please God.  The law gives passion to our evil desires.  Do not partake of the law (or the Tree).  For in the day you partake of it (the law or the Tree), you will die.  The law is a ministry of death engraved on stones.  The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin in the law.  God broke down the enmity that was between us and Israel (the law).  "The casting away of Israel is the reconciling of the world."

If you asked your apostle Paul that question, you had better hope that you were bigger than him.  He would reply, "O foolish Dig, who has bewitched you?  Having been saved in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the Tanach.  I fear for you!  Whoever gave you a gospel other than the one I preached to you, let him be cursed.  I don't care if it's Moses himself.  You are to follow me, me, me, me as I follow Christ.  It is MY gospel, given to me by Jesus Himself.  I did not get My gospel from Peter or James, or John, or Moses.  I got it from Jesus Christ for YOU."

 

TeeJay  






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