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Predestination & Free Will


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#241 Dig4gold

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 07:19 PM

TJ, am I to understand that you have more revaluation than Moses? Moses whom God spoke to Face to face?

How can God save His own people, whom He chose among all the world, when you leave them with no way of salvation unless they keep the Torah perfectly which no man can do? Do you despise Israel? I think you do.

Do not boast!

#242 Dig4gold

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 08:12 PM

TJ: You please God by reading Paul and understanding that as a member of the Body of Christ, you are not under the Tanach. When you recover from an illness, I hope you don't go to the Rabbi and make the sacrifice commanded by Moses (a turtledove)?


Again, spoken with the disdain of someone who has no honor of the teaching and instruction of God.

But I noticed you could not answer my question. And you can't.

#243 Dig4gold

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 08:15 PM

TJ: By the law no flesh shall be justified.

Then why do you say that it is necessary for the Jews to add works to their faith?

#244 Dig4gold

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 08:22 PM

TJ: the question I asked was, "how to please God without obeying the Tanach (OT). Just one would be fine."

I'll give you one, reading Rabbi Sha'ul. But understanding him is the work of the Ruach HaKodesh. You should try it some time.

#245 Dig4gold

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 08:24 PM

I meant "to" TJ! Not to quote him.

#246 Fred Williams

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 08:56 PM

TJ, am I to understand that you have more revaluation than Moses? Moses whom God spoke to Face to face?

How can God save His own people, whom He chose among all the world, when you leave them with no way of salvation unless they keep the Torah perfectly which no man can do? Do you despise Israel? I think you do.

Do not boast!

 

Dig, I'm trying hard to keep the "mod" hat off in this, but your post is 100% strawman of TJ's position. Can't you see this? Please show some willingness to admit you are misrepresenting TJ, I presume inadvertently, since he has never, ever, claimed that the Jews had to keep the Torah perfectly. 

 

Fred



#247 Fred Williams

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 09:01 PM

Fred, the reason you accepted the truth of TG is that you were intellectually honest, humbled yourself, and accepted the fact that a straight forward reading of Scripture does not support the OG.  Not once in all the years I have been debating this subject have I received a comeback that was not a reinterpretation of what the word clearly says.  We can see this here where I asked Dig if God grafted us into Israel or into Christ?  And I asked why God would grafted us into a nation that was cut off?
 

 

This was my fault, I wasn't very clear to Adam. My verse-to-verse challenge to him was meant to essentially debate whether or not "God knew every person before the world began", which is essentially a debate on the Open View. Does anyone want to accept this challenge, and we each keep our own scorecard on who has to ignore the plain meaning of the verses presented? 



#248 Fred Williams

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 09:06 PM

I don't know the mechanics of it but The Lord evidently does...

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations. (Jeremiah 1:5 NKJV)

I still never got an answer to... Is time in God or is God in time?

 

Adam, God is in time. Would you care to debate this, scripture vs scripture, and keep our own scorecard who has to ignore plain scripture? I don't mean this in a provocative way, I say it only out of experience of being on your side and losing very badly. If I am right, isn't it worth pursing if it is a certain truth of scripture you've missed out on? I missed out on this one for at least 45 years. smile.png  If I am wrong, you could hone your skills on how to defend against such a heretical statement as I have made. dummy.gif

 

Fred

PS... To be clear, I define time as simply the passing of one moment to the next. It is impossible to go back in time, and it is impossible to go into the future like in a time machine. Both are science fiction only. Another way to put it is, God is not outside of time, he is not outside the "passing of one moment to the next", and there are tons of scripture to defend this, so I look forward to starting in Genesis and going through the Bible if anyone wants to step to the plate.



#249 Dig4gold

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 07:01 AM

Fred, that sounds like a great topic. Should another thread be started, something like "the timeless God" or "God and Time" or something like that?

From my initial reaction I would be in the camp that says God is outside of time and enters into it when He desires. So I would be the counterpoint I guess.

#250 Fred Williams

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 08:18 AM

Fred, that sounds like a great topic. Should another thread be started, something like "the timeless God" or "God and Time" or something like that?

From my initial reaction I would be in the camp that says God is outside of time and enters into it when He desires. So I would be the counterpoint I guess.

 

Yea, it would make sense to do this in the 'Openness Theology' thread here

 

(on second thought, I wouldn't be opposed to creating a thread called "Is God Outside of Time")

 

EDIT: OK, thread started here. Have fun!



#251 Dig4gold

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 06:59 PM

Fred: Dig, I'm trying hard to keep the "mod" hat off in this, but your post is 100% strawman of TJ's position.

That is the only way to be saved by works. So then how is my saying that TJ promotes a faith and works gospel a straw man? Either you are saved by faith apart from works, as I believe, or you are saved by keeping the whole Law. Straw man? I think not.


I also noticed that you did not respond to my question, "how to please God without obeying the Tanach (OT). Just one would be fine."

Anyone?

#252 Fred Williams

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 04:58 AM

Fred: Dig, I'm trying hard to keep the "mod" hat off in this, but your post is 100% strawman of TJ's position.

That is the only way to be saved by works. So then how is my saying that TJ promotes a faith and works gospel a straw man? Either you are saved by faith apart from works, as I believe, or you are saved by keeping the whole Law. Straw man? I think not.

 


I also noticed that you did not respond to my question, "how to please God without obeying the Tanach (OT). Just one would be fine."

Anyone?

 

You are not carefully reading what is being said. I'll repeat it again with emphasis. TJ never said that the Jews had to keep the law perfectly.  You again repeat the strawman above, by saying TJ thinks they needed to keep the whole Law. No, they had to strive to keep it, and offer the animal sacrifice to cover their inevitable inability to keep the whole law. So there is a big difference. It was works + faith. The good news of the new testament, and why Jesus called it a better covenant, is that the works part was removed. What I find ironic in all this is that you apparently unwittingly preach works + faith all over the place on this forum. 

 

Regarding your last question, Jesus provides the answer: "love your neighbor as yourself". Love is the answer. I submit that love is not a "work". Thoughts?



#253 Dig4gold

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 10:30 AM

Fred: What I find ironic in all this is that you apparently unwittingly preach works + faith all over the place on this forum.

 

 

You know you have to back that up with quotes or everyone will know that it is not true.

 

 

 

Fred: Regarding your last question, Jesus provides the answer: "love your neighbor as yourself". Love is the answer. I submit that love is not a "work".

 

 

Again, my question that no one has answered, "how can you love someone without obeying the Law"? Do you have any examples?



#254 Fred Williams

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 01:05 PM

Fred: What I find ironic in all this is that you apparently unwittingly preach works + faith all over the place on this forum.

 

 

You know you have to back that up with quotes or everyone will know that it is not true.

 

Fair enough. All anyone has to do is read page 28 of the two gospels thread. You lambasted the beloved lobster, calling it a "cockroach of the sea", and told Adam to not eat crablegs. Now that's rude, I might have to add a new forum rule: "No unfair criticism of lobsters or any other delicious seafood. Criticism of cats is accepted".

 

What if a person becomes saved and refuses to obey the law, do they lose their salvation?

 

Fred: Regarding your last question, Jesus provides the answer: "love your neighbor as yourself". Love is the answer. I submit that love is not a "work".

 

 

Again, my question that no one has answered, "how can you love someone without obeying the Law"? Do you have any examples?

 

Here's one way to ponder this, I got this analogy from a Pastor friend of mine. Imagine you put a note on your car visor, to remind you of something each morning. Now what if the note says "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY!"?  What if your wife sees this note? What will her reaction be? She'll be WORRIED!  Now on the otherhand, what if the note says "I will love my wife as Christ loved the church!" What is her reaction now? You score major points! (the only problem is, as us married guys know those points only last until the next time you have to take out the trash). :)



#255 Dig4gold

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 04:45 PM

At least we agree on the cats!

 

 

Fred: What if a person becomes saved and refuses to obey the law, do they lose their salvation?

 

That's a whole new topic and one which I don't want to get into at this point. Maybe at a latter time.



#256 Fred Williams

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 01:03 PM

At least we agree on the cats!

 

 

Fred: What if a person becomes saved and refuses to obey the law, do they lose their salvation?

 

That's a whole new topic and one which I don't want to get into at this point. Maybe at a latter time.

 

 

Translation: Faith + works.  



#257 Dig4gold

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 11:04 PM

Fred, what are you saying in post 256? Is it that you hear crickets when you try to prove the faith plus works doctrine with Scripture?

#258 Teejay

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 08:21 PM

TJ, am I to understand that you have more revaluation than Moses? Moses whom God spoke to Face to face?

How can God save His own people, whom He chose among all the world, when you leave them with no way of salvation unless they keep the Torah perfectly which no man can do? Do you despise Israel? I think you do.

Do not boast!


Dig,

I asked you before:  Can you give me one post where I show that I despise Israel.  If you can't, you are a false witness against me.  In accordance with Luke 17:3, I rebuke you.  If you retract your false accusation and ask my forgiveness I will forgive you and then we can have a Christian brother to brother dialogue.

TeeJay



#259 Teejay

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 08:32 PM

Fred: What I find ironic in all this is that you apparently unwittingly preach works + faith all over the place on this forum.

 

 

You know you have to back that up with quotes or everyone will know that it is not true.

 

 

 

Fred: Regarding your last question, Jesus provides the answer: "love your neighbor as yourself". Love is the answer. I submit that love is not a "work".

 

 

Again, my question that no one has answered, "how can you love someone without obeying the Law"? Do you have any examples?


Dig,

This is a slow pitch that I can't resist hitting out of the park.  A parent who loves his or her children needs no fasten seatbelt law.  And God give no one any credit for buckling up their kids just because the State law says to do it.  The man who never commits adultery BECAUSE OF GOD'S COMMANDMENT THAT SAYS, "THOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY" will get a frying pan over his head when his wife learns that his motivation was God's commandment instead of love for her.  Dig, you simply do not understand the grace gospel that was given to Paul.  You have one leg in Peter's camp and one leg leg in Paul's.  You will forever remain confused because you really like the law.  The law, just like the Tree, is seductive.  But just as the fruit of the Tree was death, so too, the law.  I must let you stay in your confused state of mind.

 

TeeJay



#260 Dig4gold

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 05:52 AM

TJ, So you say that you do what the Law says but you insist that you are not obeying the Law. Because, as you say the Law is death. (But just as the fruit of the Tree was death, so too, the law.)

 

 

Only be very careful to observe the commandment and the law which Moses the servant of the Lord commanded you, to love the Lord your God and walk in all His ways and keep His commandments and hold fast to Him and serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul.” Jos 22:5

 

So we cant keep the commands because they are death but we are to do what they say because of love. The commands are all about love.

 

Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. Mat 24:12

 

Hmm, lawlessness equals less love. But perhaps your point is that we shouldn't love the Law and just love God and our fellow man. We could look to someone of whom it was said to be a "man after God's own heart" to see his view.

 

O how I love Your law! It is my meditation all the day. Psalm 119: 97

 

We simply cannot express love without God's Law, it is the way in which God has said to express love. Seatbelt laws? We are commanded to obey the civil authorities in the Renewed Covenant. Obviously there were no cars in the ancient times but we can look at a similar law to illustrate the point.

 

When you build a new house, you shall make a parapet for your roof, so that you will not bring bloodguilt on your house if anyone falls from it. Deut 22:8

 

That is a kind of "seatbelt" for the house. It's all about love. I wish you didn't hate it.  






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