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Predestination & Free Will


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#101 chipwag64

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 05:22 PM

Interesting to see the remarks of Origin man, I too feel blessed to have found this forum which is more geared to thinkers and expositors rather than childish name-callers.
By accident, (my view) I found a Reformed Church several years ago and was naturally scared at what I heard was their view of Scripture.
This was due to my ignorance and lack of ever reading God's Word, so I never knew what was contained within the pages, just went with what seemed logical and what I was taught.
As regarding this debate, I see comparisons to the Evolution/Creation debate.
Everything is interpreted through a pre-conceived notion that conforms to human logic and reason and our view of reality.
This is in no way a knock on anyone at all.
I see in many posts, the arguments "...but why would...?" which means to me that it's not registering in our perception of what is right or logical or fair etc.
Sometimes we need to step away from verse selection and get the whole picture of the redemption of man throughout the whole Bible.
I don't believe that we have to pass a "Bible" quiz from St. Peter at the gates to get into heaven, but I also believe in giving God His due glory, honor and praise by seeking to understand and stand in awe of His mighty works.
I do not consider myself a "Baptist" or a "Calvanist" although my understanding of the Biblical process of redemption could be classified as such. I do not defend Calvanism, I seek the best possible understanding of the word, and would gladly enter into discussion, not debate per se to be corrected if found Biblically wrong in my theology.
I believe that what makes us sinners is not our sins, but our descendency from Adam, taken from Romans 5 comparisons of the first Adam to the second Adam.
I agree with others in previous posts that we are ALL naturally destined for hell in our sinful nature, and it is only God's grace through faith that can save us, not our ability to believe apart from or even somewhat influenced by it (grace).
John 6:44 speaks of God drawing us to Himself, where many would say that He draws to a certain point and then we complete the final steps by believing.
I see two flaws here,
1) I haven't been able to find a passage that speaks of someone has a half-way believer/unbeliever, I see either light or darkness, wicked or righteous, dead or alive, so, if you draw a dead(spiritually speaking) person to yourself it will not come the rest of the way, no matter how much you influence it.
2) the rest of the verse says..(Jesus speaking).."and I WILL raise Him up at the last day"..in other words, those who are drawn are also those who will be raised at the last day.
I think that we would all agree that salvation is a gift and that man MUST believe to receive that gift.
As far as why to spread the Gospel if your a "Calvinist"? well, we are commanded to, and this is the means that God has chosen to bring His elect to salvation and there could be many other reasons.
I myself have recently studied John 15:22 in preparations for evangelizing; is it possible that when we evangelize, we assure those that reject the good news that they were given the offer and they can't say that they never knew?
My understanding of prayer has nothing to do with salvation (post #89).
I believe that prayer is an avenue of communication with God for thanksgiving, worship, supplications and confession, I don't know what this has to do with "Calvanism"?
As far as predestination, the word obviously means to determine beforehand, and the Scriptures tell us this was before the world began.
The greatest tragedy by far should be that Jesus Himself was predestined...for something that He didn't deserve!! and He didn't find offense or unrighteousness with that.
Paul writes a letter to the Ephesian saints saying that "we" ( the saints)were predestined, according to His will.
Paul writes a letter to those who were loved of God and called to be saints in Rome stating in chapter 8 that all things work together for their good because God has a purpose. Paul states that those whom were predestined were also foreknown, justified,called and ultimately glorified.
The "whom" suggests people, certain people, unless you believe that everyone is foreknown, predestined, called, justified and glorified.
Everywhere you look in the N.T. for salvific purposes, you always see ..according to God's purpose...not man's.
There is much more that I could write but much has already been discussed. I chose to offer some points that may have been missed.

I look forward to meaningful, God honoring, careful exegesis of His word, thank you all for your points!!

Chip

#102 OriginMan

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 06:15 AM

I currently cannot support Limited Atonement. While I also dislike the many labels man has created, Calvinism, Arminianism, Catholic, Baptist, etc. I do find myself and my beliefs in-line with I guess you could say a 4-point Calvanist? Being that I cannot support Limited Atonement.


Total Depravity - As a result of Adam’s fall, the entire human race is affected; all humanity is dead in trespasses and sins. Man is unable to save himself (Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-18).

Unconditional Election - Because man is dead in sin, he is unable to initiate response to God; therefore, in eternity past God elected certain people to salvation. Election and predestination are unconditional; they are not based on man’s response (Romans 8:29-30; 9:11; Ephesians 1:4-6,11-12) because man is unable to respond, nor does he want to.

Irresistible Grace - Those whom God elected and Christ died for, God draws to Himself through irresistible grace. God makes man willing to come to Him. When God calls, man responds (John 6:37,44; 10:16).

Perseverance of the Saints - The precise ones God has elected and drawn to Himself through the Holy Spirit will persevere in faith. None whom God has elected will be lost; they are eternally secure (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:3-14).

While all these doctrines have a biblical basis, many people reject all or some of them. So-called “four-point Calvinists” accept Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints as biblical doctrines. Man is definitely sinful and incapable of believing in God on his own. God elects people based on His will alone – it is not based on any merit in the person chosen. All those whom God has chosen will come to faith. All those who are truly born-again will persevere in their faith. As for Limited Atonement, however, four-point Calvinists believe that atonement in unlimited, arguing that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, not just for the sins of the elect. “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2). Other verses in opposition to limited atonement are John 1:29; 3:16; 1 Timothy 2:6; 2 Peter 2:1.Source



Also IMHO any other theory of salvation would entwine some level of pride by being able to say "I Chose". Giving you the power to choose whether or not you go to heaven. This is something I see as impossible and something that if true would also be true for the reverse being able to say that you rejected God's calling. Giving you the power to reject the Will of God. Which would mean you have equal or greater power than God to be able to refuse Him.

I also have come to understand that there might indeed be some sort of Free Will for us, but this Free Will is not what we understand Free Will to be as taught in some school system. I believe that this Free Will can only be understood and is defined by God's word and is completely separate from salvation. Whether we choose to wear a blue shirt or a red one is not on the same level as whether or not you give aid to your adversary or watch him suffer. Then again I also believe that we can do nothing outside the Will of God.


Very busy these days so don't hold a late response against me.

It's also been about a year and a half since I posted this and I still think the same was true;

I'm not too sure we both are defining Calvinism in the same manner. 



Semper Fi

D

#103 OriginMan

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 10:47 AM

Also I thought I might add that my assertion is under the pretence that Limited Atonement means that Jesus's death didn't cover all sins.

Since the God's word makes it obviously clear that Jesus death covered the sins of the WHOLE world, past, present and future we know this to be false.


Semper Fi

D

#104 Fred Williams

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 12:08 PM

Also I thought I might add that my assertion is under the pretence that Limited Atonement means that Jesus's death didn't cover all sins.

Since the God's word makes it obviously clear that Jesus death covered the sins of the WHOLE world, past, present and future we know this to be false.
Semper Fi

D

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I think if you do a long, in-depth study of all 5 TULIPs of Calvinism, they ulimately all stand or fall together. Therefore, since you admit Limited Atonement is false, you should reject the other 4 TULIPs. ;) Besides, as I hope this thread showed, much more scripture, epecially when taken as written without the "anthropomorphism" handwave, has been used to refute the 5 TULIPS than defend it. Irresistible grace? Try to explain Isaiah 5:4 and Luke 13:34 (among the many already given in this thread). Calvinism provides the perfect excuse not to witness, which itself is a clue as to its origins.

Fred

#105 OriginMan

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 12:51 PM

I think if you do a long, in-depth study


1 Corinthians 10:1-13

Do you deny that I have done an in-depth study? I'm not simply guessing here. :)



Try to explain Isaiah 5:4 and Luke 13:34


Isaiah 5:4
4What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?

Luke 13:34
34O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!



1: I see no problem here. This verse is a testament that nothing can happen outside the will of God.

2: Sounds like he's talking about the days before the New Covenant, when Free Will as we know it was much different.


I don't deny the Cognitive ability of us to be able to go and witness to people and for those people to come to Christ. I do however deny that any of those intentions came from our own hearts. I believe those good works to be led by the Holy Spirit. Although yes we performed those actions, it was not on our OWN accord that we done so lest we should boast. I believe that if given the absolute option of doing good or bad were laid completely on man's hands, he would choose bad, it's our nature. If we choose good, it is b/c the Holy Spirit has led us to do so.


In Christ,



D

#106 chipwag64

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Posted 01 October 2009 - 06:53 PM

When considering the atonement (which means restoration, or reconciliation) of Jesus Christ,we must ask ourselves:

1) Was it something actual that happened, or something theoretical?
2) Did His death accomplish anything at all in and of itself ?
3) If it was an actual event that DID accomplish anything, was it the same benefit for all people everywhere?
4) If it was actual and accomplishing something and equal for all people, why then do some INHERIT eternal life, while others perish in eternal judgment?

#107 Ron

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Posted 11 November 2009 - 07:40 AM

Along the lines of "Free Will" and Predestination, I submit the following:

oMs3bCQ-CrA

Why do people not believe in free will?

#108 Ron

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 05:49 AM

4) If it was actual and accomplishing something and equal for all people, why then do some INHERIT eternal life, while others perish in eternal judgment?

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You know brother, as I consider this discussion (and especially that of free will), I consider the words of Jesus in Revelations 3:20 & 21. It is succinct and explains free will and your above question as well:
20 "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me." 21 "To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne."

Basically, Jesus called to “anyone” who’ll listen. Therefore, His fellowship is open to all! But, only with those who’ll listen and answer the call will find Him communing with them. But, most importantly, only those who “overcome” will “inherit” eternal life as the body of Christ.

You cannot become a follower of Christ without “Free Will”
You cannot remain a follower of Christ (overcome) without “Free Will”

#109 the totton linnet

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 08:36 AM

If I could have chosen to be born, I would believe in free will, if I had chosen to be a girl, an English person, born to Catholic parents, poor not rich, none of these things were my choice.

If God anywhere once spoke a syllable in the bible about man's free will I would believe, none of the apostles preached a doctrine about free will. None say Blessed be God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ whom we have chosen by our free will.

If Jesus had not made statements like "no man cometh to Me unless the Father draw him"..."you have not chosen me I have chosen you"

If the apostles did not specificaaly say we were predestined, if we were not told categorically that before we were in our mothers womb God chose us and seperated us, Paul yes but we too, he to ne an apostle, us to be whatever He will make us to be.

If God did not show Himself forth as the Potter moulding and fashioning us as He pleases.

The only freedom I have or want is to be what God created me to be, if not that then I am spoiled and marred and of no fit use for anything.

THAT is true freedom, "if the Son shall set you free you will be free indeed."

I do not read rev:3:20-21 as a choice, Jesus is merely saying what will be, the motive is in the hearing His voice and That is firmly in God's department.

God gives us the dignity of seeming to choose but it is not so really, nobody made me kneel down and recieve Him but He was so wonderfully revealing Himself, He truly was willing IN ME to do of His good pleasure. See Paul kicked against the goads so God knocked him off his horse, Paul was never the same man again, he was like a small child in the hand of God.

At the time of the reformation nobody believed in free will, neither Luther or Calvin, the doctrine came in as a re-action and a protestation to Calvins wrong teaching about predestination.

#110 the totton linnet

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 05:54 PM

Along the lines of "Free Will" and Predestination, I submit the following:

oMs3bCQ-CrA

Why do people not believe in free will?

View Post

*
because there was not a syllable of scripture in it.

#111 Fred Williams

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Posted 24 December 2009 - 12:23 AM

If God anywhere once spoke a syllable in the bible about man's free will I would believe

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The usual disclaimer: I believe the Bible teaches that man is in such a state they cannot decide on their own to seek God, God must reach out first. I also believe the Bible clearly teaches free will, in the sense that man does ultimately decide whether or not he accepts the free gift Jesus has shown them.

Hello Totten Tottet. We have touched on this topic off and on for quite some time, and I am a little skeptical that you would so readily accept free will if you were shown 1 verse. Or 100 verses. Or 1000. I feel comfortable in claiming that there are probably at least 100, but you seem to have so made up your mind that you have a difficult time accepting any free will verse as plainly written. All the verses you cite to try to argue against free will, I submit are more easily explained in the context of free will (see below), than the scores of free will verses that the Calvinistic POV has to skirt around. For starters, your explanation of Revelation 3 renders the whole verse pointless. What value is there in God asking John pen such a verse, especially since it contains the “if” conditional, if all it is saying “what will be”. Please ask yourself if you seriously expect someone completely unfamiliar with the Bible, the person who is first exposed to it, if they would find your explanation convincing?

…none of the apostles preached a doctrine about free will. None say Blessed be God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ whom we have chosen by our free will.


The first sentence is completely false, the second sentence is completely true. The trick is getting you to see the difference, the dichotomy. :)

If Jesus had not made statements like "no man cometh to Me unless the Father draw him"..."you have not chosen me I have chosen you"


Both true statements. Here’s the catch. Just because man can’t come to the Father, doesn’t mean they are not still given the opportunity to accept or reject God’s gift. This is beautifully explained in Matthew 22:

Matt 22:1-3 And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: "The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come.”

Can’t you see the dichotomy? God called those who were invited, and they were not willing to come. God initiates, it’s up to the person to accept. The rest of the passage further confirms this. Look how God again initiates! -->

Matt 22:8-10 Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.' So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests.

Obviously some accepted the free invitation! But someone messed up:

Matt 22:11-13 "But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. So he said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?' And he was speechless. Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

Oops. Someone showed up who had NOT accepted the free gift (in this case the wedding garment). He came in on his OWN accord. Not good. He can’t come in on his own accord, because on his own accord he is chalked full of sin. The wedding garment would have covered his sin and he would have been welcome. Law vs Grace.

To expand on God first choosing us as he did with his invitations in the parable above, please answer and explain he following: Didn’t God choose Saul (the Old Testament Saul)? Didn’t God choose Judas? Didn’t God choose Israel? God choosing someone does not mean they instantly become redeemed for all eternity. God chose a bunch of people to come to his feast, but they weren’t willing, even though the cost was zero, the gift was free.

If the apostles did not specificaaly say we were predestined, if we were not told categorically that before we were in our mothers womb God chose us and seperated us, Paul yes but we too, he to ne an apostle, us to be whatever He will make us to be.


Nowhere in the Bible does the Hebrew or Greek support that specific individuals were predestined for salvation, nowhere. Ephesians says we were chosen "in Him". It's that "In Him" part that causes trouble, if it only weasn't there, you would have a point. Second, the example of King Saul alone would contradict, and therefore refute, any interpretation that deals with individual salvation as opposed to the Body of Christ in general, which is what Ephaisians is really talking about. Some people try to get around this by claiming Saul was saved, without any real scripture to back it up. But it doesn't matter, since Isreal was chosen, and surely you do not think, as some do, that every last Jew who ever lived and died, past, present, future, is saved?

If God did not show Himself forth as the Potter moulding and fashioning us as He pleases.


Nowhere in the Bible does it mention that God molds a person for salvation or otherwise. In fact, the Bible says exactly the opposite. You’ve misunderstood this potter & clay verse in Romans. Paul was quoting the Old Testament:

Jer 18:5-10 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: 6 "O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter ?" says the LORD. "Look, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

I've posted the verse above many times. I don't expect you to have seen it, but those who I have posted it for, typically for this same PD vs FW questoin, I get little if any response from them. If you answer one question in my post it would be to explain in your own POV why God would inspire Jeremiah to pen verses 7-10 in Chapter 18?

Fred
PS. Merry Christmas!

#112 the totton linnet

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Posted 24 December 2009 - 04:12 AM

The usual disclaimer: I believe the Bible teaches that man is in such a state they cannot decide on their own to seek God, God must reach out first. I also believe the Bible clearly teaches free will, in the sense that man does ultimately decide whether or not he accepts the free gift Jesus has shown them.

Hello Totten Tottet. We have touched on this topic off and on for quite some time, and I am a little skeptical that you would so readily accept free will if you were shown 1 verse. Or 100 verses. Or 1000. I feel comfortable in claiming that there are probably at least 100, but you seem to have so made up your mind that you have a difficult time accepting any free will verse as plainly written. All the verses you cite to try to argue against free will, I submit are more easily explained in the context of free will (see below), than the scores of free will verses that the Calvinistic POV has to skirt around. For starters, your explanation of Revelation 3 renders the whole verse pointless. What value is there in God asking John pen such a verse, especially since it contains the “if” conditional, if all it is saying “what will be”. Please ask yourself if you seriously expect someone completely unfamiliar with the Bible, the person who is first exposed to it, if they would find your explanation convincing?
The first sentence is completely false, the second sentence is completely true. The trick is getting you to see the difference, the dichotomy. :)
Both true statements. Here’s the catch. Just because man can’t come to the Father, doesn’t mean they are not still given the opportunity to accept or reject God’s gift. This is beautifully explained in Matthew 22:

Matt 22:1-3 And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: "The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son,  and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come.”

Can’t you see the dichotomy? God called those who were invited, and they were not willing to come. God initiates, it’s up to the person to accept. The rest of the passage further confirms this. Look how God again initiates! -->

Matt 22:8-10 Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy.  Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.' So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests. 

Obviously some accepted the free invitation! But someone messed up:

Matt 22:11-13  "But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment.  So he said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?' And he was speechless.  Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 

Oops. Someone showed up who had NOT accepted the free gift (in this case the wedding garment). He came in on his OWN accord. Not good. He can’t come in on his own accord, because on his own accord he is chalked full of sin. The wedding garment would have covered his sin and he would have been welcome. Law vs Grace.

To expand on God first choosing us as he did with his invitations in the parable above, please answer and explain he following:  Didn’t God choose Saul (the Old Testament Saul)? Didn’t God choose Judas? Didn’t God choose Israel? God choosing someone does not mean they instantly become redeemed for all eternity. God chose a bunch of people to come to his feast, but they weren’t willing, even though the cost was zero, the gift was free.
Nowhere in the Bible does the Hebrew or Greek support that specific individuals were predestined for salvation, nowhere. Ephesians says we were chosen "in Him". It's that "In Him" part that causes trouble, if it only weasn't there, you would have a point. Second, the example of King Saul alone would contradict, and therefore refute, any interpretation that deals with individual salvation as opposed to the Body of Christ in general, which is what Ephaisians is really talking about. Some people try to get around this by claiming Saul was saved, without any real scripture to back it up. But it doesn't matter, since Isreal was chosen, and surely you do not think, as some do, that every last Jew who ever lived and died, past, present, future, is saved?
Nowhere in the Bible does it mention that God molds a person for salvation or otherwise. In fact, the Bible says exactly the opposite. You’ve misunderstood this potter & clay verse in Romans. Paul was quoting the Old Testament:

Jer 18:5-10 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: 6 "O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter ?" says the LORD. "Look, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it,  8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it,  10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

I've posted the verse above many times. I don't expect you to have seen it, but those who I have posted it for, typically for this same PD vs FW questoin, I get little if any response from them. If you answer one question in my post it would be to explain in your own POV why God would inspire Jeremiah to pen verses 7-10 in Chapter 18?

Fred
PS. Merry Christmas!

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*
And a very merry christmas to you and your family Fred, you are correct in saying that I will not agree ever with the idea of salvation by man's choice or free will, we read ALL those scriptures differently and it is pointless to go through them one by one. God is able to show it. I see the free will proclaimation of the gospel as practically the whole root of what is wrong with evangelism in the church today, free will being in the ascendency by far. The only free will I will ever acknowledge is God's sovereign will. I am quite happy to be in a minority with people like Bunyan, Whitefield and Spurgeon while I reject Calvin's predestination I accept the biblical predestination.
*
Right ok I will respond to Jeremiah 18.

The assumption you make is that the nations whom God addresses has a choice in how they respond, I say they don't. Any more than Pharoah had a choice, for God gave him plenty opportunity but denied him the grace wherewithal he might have made the right choice. This is the crux of the argument of those who question God's right to do as He pleases as though He is answerable to us. The grace is His to give or to withold according to His wishes.

You see how rejecting predestination works because the next step along that path is to deny God's omniscience, that He knows and foreknows everything. Then you must reject [obviously] His omnipotence that He is all powerful.

Pretty soon you are left with a God who is pretty much like we are, confused and helpless in the face of evil. In fact you are left with a God who is no God at all.

The argument that Calvin overlooks in his doctrine of P [I have never read Calvin so he might have addressed it, I never heard of it] is the doctrine of Federal headship. Based upon God's foreknowledge he placed man-kind under headship. It is impossible to understand bible predestination without it.

In Adam we are ALL placed under sin, we have no choice in the matter , I simply do not understand why it is not blindingly obvious to everyone that this totally destroys any idea of free will. We are born in sin and bound to sin. Paul tells why in Ro:11.32 God hath consigned all men to disobedience that He might have mercy upon all
33. Oh the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgements and how inscrutable His ways.

God KNEW that man would sin, that is that some would sin, it was not those who would not sin He was concerned for but those who would, that's what Jesus meant "I am not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance"

Somebody asks then is God responsible for sin? I say YES not that He creates it or that He tempts anyone to it or can be tempted Himself [That is why I reject the idea that the tree was a test] but knowing that man would sin He manages it and controls it and assigns by federal headship who should be guilty of it.

The ultimate of this is the cross, there God in Christ assumes FULL responsibility for man's sin. Now He offers free pardon and new life to whom-so-ever He will, those whom He foreknew He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son.

It says nothing whatever about all others being predestinated to hell, that is where Calvin and I dare to say Augustine boobed, they assumed it because they could see no other explanation.

People should take it to God and not fill in the blanks with their own understanding, God will show you that there are other things to be taken into account.

We skim over them in the bible we read "Blessed are the pure in heart theirs is the kingdom of God, blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth" if people stop reading the bible through the blinkers that Calvin's predestination put on them it becomes alive with scriptures like that.

The righteous sheep are judged by their works, they are righteous WE is the sinners we were the ones who Jesus came to save. There is simply no case for us to be going around condemning EVERYONE to eternal punishment, WE were the ones who were on that road but God has had mercy on us and saved us and cleaned us up and made something of us.

But there are some who God HAS appointed to eternal punishment, He has done so on the basis of foreknowledge and by means of federal headship He holds them to account.

God never willed that man would sin but He knew some would and everything is set in place and created in such a manner as to deal with it.

The way of the cross is set on purpose to both be the means by which some are saved and cause of condemnation to those who reject it, purposely so.

#113 ikester7579

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Posted 26 December 2009 - 04:31 AM

There is a difference between chosen type predestination, and predestination. Because if freewill is eliminated, then how can we be justly judged upon something we were "made or forced" to do?

Also, predestination refers to doing a work for the kingdom, it does not predestined someone for Heaven or Hell. If we were predestined, then why even have a judgment? It's like being guilty or innocent even before you enter a court room. Why waste the time if the verdict was made long before you were even born?

Example: If predestination were the representation of salvation, then communism would be the example as well. Why? Because freewill is removed in both cases.

Another example: When Christ went and sought out his disciples, did He choose them and give them the choice (freewill)? Or did he force them in some way saying there was no choice?

Also, predestination is not being able to choose our life. If we could do so then we could also control things that are beyond the physical. We would have powers like God. But we are not God. That is why we do not have the choice of gender, situation, or family that we are born into. To have such powers would make us god like. Because we would be expressing those powers in the spiritual realm when we are restricted by natural laws.

Also, because of Adam and Eve, we are all born into sin. Sin restricts us from the spiritual world and therefore it's power as well. The choice is removed because to be born into sin takes away that power to choose.

#114 Fred Williams

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Posted 27 December 2009 - 10:38 PM

Hello totton linnet (sorry about messing your name up in my last post),

I will not agree ever with the idea of salvation by man's choice or free will, we read ALL those scriptures differently and it is pointless to go through them one by one.

View Post


I will agree with you (for the umpteenth time) that salvation ‘by man’s choice’ is not Biblical. But this is completely different than free will. You keep lumping them together.

I truly envy the fact that you are much more mature in your faith than I was at your age. However, I would hope that you would not lock yourself in a box on some scriptural belief and decide “it is pointless to go through scriptures one by one”. With this attitude, how is it possible for you to ever recognize if you are in error on some doctrine? You need to try to maintain some semblance of a teachable spirit, which I personally have seldom ever seen you show on this forum. If I achieve anything out of this, I hope you some time in the future will recognize this. I personally have been wrong about a great many things over the years that span a wide range of doctrines, and I’m sure there are plenty more I will be wrong about. What if I had taken your attitude when I was 19 years old? Perhaps I would still believe in praying to saints & Mary, God creating dinos millions of years ago as pets, and all sorts of other doctrines I now believe to be false.

If you were to consider each verse one-by-one, it’s possible after the dust is cleared that at the very least you would see that for every one verse you have for your POV, I can offer TEN that you will have to declare don’t mean what they say, as you just did with Jeremiah 18. For the one out of 10 verses you offer, I believe the theology I am defending can accommodate them easily without explaining them away. Isn’t this a good sign there may be something wrong with your theology? I can look at Romans 11:32, which you offered, and say that it means exactly what it says! (provided you look at the Greek, and also consider the context - see all of Romans 11, but ESPECIALLY Romans 11:11). You can’t do the same for Jeremiah 18 and the scores of others I can offer. You can’t say I am taking them out of context. You can't say the Greek or Hebrew doesn't match or do the translation justice. All you can say is that they don’t mean what they say! It won’t be long and you will learn (or already know) the word “anthropomorphism” and start using it liberally with these 100s of problem verses. :) After the dust is cleared, you may not still see your theology is wrong, but at the very least I would hope you could admit that you lost the battle when considering who is taking the verses as they are plainly written, and who isn’t. The last Calvinst I confronted here didn't accept my challenge to compare verses one-by-one and see who wins the score on who takes the verses plainly, and who doesn't. Are you game? :)

BTW, your lumping “choice” with free will makes your theology virtually indistinguishable from Calvinism. I’m not quite sure how you have convinced yourself you are not a Calvinist, at the very least you are a 4-point Calvinist (FYI, your hero Spurgeon was a 5-point Calvinist). You don’t like the ‘L’ because it says God ordained people for hell, yet you can’t explain, in any semblance of logic, how your theology can dismiss it. You merely say you disagree with it. Yet your theology demands it! It’s a natural consequence of your theology, so give Calvin and Augustine credit for at least recognizing this. Moreover, your statement on Jeremiah 18 sounds hyper-Calvinistic. Do you believe God ordains ALL things that happen? Do you believe nothing happens by chance?

I realize at the present time I won’t be able to convince you with a discussion of the scripture. But I do want you to know that I will continue to oppose your Calvinistic position every time I see it. Not just because I find it unbiblical, I find it very dangerous. Calvinistic theology in virtually every form provides a very good reason not to witness to anyone at all. It takes all the logic out of witnessing. So if you would answer one question in this thread, I would like you to give a good reason why fellow Christians who accept your theology should witness to anyone? I know I hold some beliefs that are controversial and some I could ultimately be shown are wrong, but one thing I can say is that none of my beliefs, to my present knowledge, would provide a fellow believer an excuse not to witness and spread the gospel. I would pray it gives you at least some pause when you consider that your theology provides an excuse not to be diligent with unbelievers about the gospel. Who benefits from such a theology, our Lord, or the prince of this world?

Fred

#115 the totton linnet

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 03:25 AM

Hello totton linnet (sorry about messing your name up in my last post),
I will agree with you (for the umpteenth time) that salvation ‘by man’s choice’ is not Biblical. But this is completely different than free will. You keep lumping them together.

I truly envy the fact that you are much more mature in your faith than I was at your age. However, I would hope that you would not lock yourself in a box on some scriptural belief and decide “it is pointless to go through scriptures one by one”. With this attitude, how is it possible for you to ever recognize if you are in error on some doctrine? You need to try to maintain some semblance of a teachable spirit, which I personally have seldom ever seen you show on this forum. If I achieve anything out of this, I hope you some time in the future will recognize this. I personally have been wrong about a great many things over the years that span a wide range of doctrines, and I’m sure there are plenty more I will be wrong about. What if I had taken your attitude when I was 19 years old?  Perhaps I would still believe in praying to saints & Mary, God creating dinos millions of years ago as pets, and all sorts of other doctrines I now believe to be false.

If you were to consider each verse one-by-one, it’s possible after the dust is cleared that at the very least you would see that for every one verse you have for your POV, I can offer TEN that you will have to declare don’t mean what they say, as you just did with Jeremiah 18. For the one out of 10 verses you offer, I believe the theology I am defending can accommodate them easily without explaining them away. Isn’t this a good sign there may be something wrong with your theology? I can look at Romans 11:32, which you offered, and say that it means exactly what it says! (provided you look at the Greek, and also consider the context - see all of Romans 11, but ESPECIALLY Romans 11:11). You can’t do the same for Jeremiah 18 and the scores of others I can offer. You can’t say I am taking them out of context. You can't say the Greek or Hebrew doesn't match or do the translation justice. All you can say is that they don’t mean what they say! It won’t be long and you will learn (or already know) the word “anthropomorphism” and start using it liberally with these 100s of problem verses. :P After the dust is cleared, you may not still see your theology is wrong, but at the very least I would hope you could admit that you lost the battle when considering who is taking the verses as they are plainly written, and who isn’t. The last Calvinst I confronted here didn't accept my challenge to compare verses one-by-one and see who wins the score on who takes the verses plainly, and who doesn't. Are you game? :)

BTW, your lumping “choice” with free will makes your theology virtually indistinguishable from Calvinism. I’m not quite sure how you have convinced yourself you are not a Calvinist, at the very least you are a 4-point Calvinist (FYI, your hero Spurgeon was a 5-point Calvinist). You don’t like the ‘L’ because it says God ordained people for hell, yet you can’t explain, in any semblance of logic, how your theology can dismiss it. You merely say you disagree with it. Yet your theology demands it! It’s a natural consequence of your theology, so give Calvin and Augustine credit for at least recognizing this. Moreover, your statement on Jeremiah 18 sounds hyper-Calvinistic. Do you believe God ordains ALL things that happen? Do you believe nothing happens by chance?

I realize at the present time I won’t be able to convince you with a discussion of the scripture. But I do want you to know that I will continue to oppose your Calvinistic position every time I see it. Not just because I find it unbiblical, I find it very dangerous. Calvinistic theology in virtually every form provides a very good reason not to witness to anyone at all. It takes all the logic out of witnessing. So if you would answer one question in this thread, I would like you to give a good reason why fellow Christians who accept your theology should witness to anyone? I know I hold some beliefs that are controversial and some I could ultimately be shown are wrong, but one thing I can say is that none of my beliefs, to my present knowledge, would provide a fellow believer an excuse not to witness and spread the gospel. I would pray it gives you at least some pause when you consider that your theology provides an excuse not to be diligent with unbelievers about the gospel. Who benefits from such a theology, our Lord, or the prince of this world?

Fred

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*
Beloved Fred I am off line just now, alas. will get back to this later today, get ready for a dust up luv Suz :)

#116 the totton linnet

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 04:26 AM

There is a difference between chosen type predestination, and predestination. Because if freewill is eliminated, then how can we be justly judged upon something we were "made or forced" to do?

Also, predestination refers to doing a work for the kingdom, it does not predestined someone for Heaven or Hell. If we were predestined, then why even have a judgment? It's like being guilty or innocent even before you enter a court room. Why waste the time if the verdict was made long before you were even born?

Example: If predestination were the representation of salvation, then communism would be the example as well. Why? Because freewill is removed in both cases.

Another example: When Christ went and sought out his disciples, did He choose them and give them the choice (freewill)? Or did he force them in some way saying there was no choice?

Also, predestination is not being able to choose our life. If we could do so then we could also control things that are beyond the physical. We would have powers like God. But we are not God. That is why we do not have the choice of gender, situation, or family that we are born into. To have such powers would make us god like. Because we would be expressing those powers in the spiritual realm when we are restricted by natural laws.

Also, because of Adam and Eve, we are all born into sin. Sin restricts us from the spiritual world and therefore it's power as well. The choice is removed because to be born into sin takes away that power to choose.

View Post

*
100 per cent in agreement that sin totally negates any freewill Isaac, [a very happy and prosperous new year to you and your family] the thought of God forcing anyone to do anything is totally alien, it is a human concept, alas Ike I am on a borrowed computer and have not my bible with me, [a warrier without her sword] but in Romans Paul talks about us being slaves to righteousness, then quickly adds "I am speaking in human terms because of your natural limitations" [must be CORINTHS ]

It's just that fishes belong in water, birds will take to the air, man builds roads to walk upon. nature is as nature does.

It is also filial, that is family, we are God's children, when He calls us we recognize His voice. It will always be so, I admit the flesh doesn't recognize God, like Paul when the goads came he kicked, that was because something was happening in his spirit, as he watched Stephen beg forgiveness for those who stoned him.

There is no forcing, you don't have to teach a snake to be a snake or a sheep to be a sheep. A baby will cry for his mum. It is all natural.

Now when I read that not a sparrow will fall to the earth but the Father knows, I believe that. God is in total control, and I am very glad that it is so.

I am not saying there are no questions, I don't know everything or even much. But I believe.

#117 the totton linnet

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 04:51 AM

Hello totton linnet (sorry about messing your name up in my last post),
I will agree with you (for the umpteenth time) that salvation ‘by man’s choice’ is not Biblical. But this is completely different than free will. You keep lumping them together.

I truly envy the fact that you are much more mature in your faith than I was at your age. However, I would hope that you would not lock yourself in a box on some scriptural belief and decide “it is pointless to go through scriptures one by one”. With this attitude, how is it possible for you to ever recognize if you are in error on some doctrine? You need to try to maintain some semblance of a teachable spirit, which I personally have seldom ever seen you show on this forum. If I achieve anything out of this, I hope you some time in the future will recognize this. I personally have been wrong about a great many things over the years that span a wide range of doctrines, and I’m sure there are plenty more I will be wrong about. What if I had taken your attitude when I was 19 years old?  Perhaps I would still believe in praying to saints & Mary, God creating dinos millions of years ago as pets, and all sorts of other doctrines I now believe to be false.

If you were to consider each verse one-by-one, it’s possible after the dust is cleared that at the very least you would see that for every one verse you have for your POV, I can offer TEN that you will have to declare don’t mean what they say, as you just did with Jeremiah 18. For the one out of 10 verses you offer, I believe the theology I am defending can accommodate them easily without explaining them away. Isn’t this a good sign there may be something wrong with your theology? I can look at Romans 11:32, which you offered, and say that it means exactly what it says! (provided you look at the Greek, and also consider the context - see all of Romans 11, but ESPECIALLY Romans 11:11). You can’t do the same for Jeremiah 18 and the scores of others I can offer. You can’t say I am taking them out of context. You can't say the Greek or Hebrew doesn't match or do the translation justice. All you can say is that they don’t mean what they say! It won’t be long and you will learn (or already know) the word “anthropomorphism” and start using it liberally with these 100s of problem verses. :P After the dust is cleared, you may not still see your theology is wrong, but at the very least I would hope you could admit that you lost the battle when considering who is taking the verses as they are plainly written, and who isn’t. The last Calvinst I confronted here didn't accept my challenge to compare verses one-by-one and see who wins the score on who takes the verses plainly, and who doesn't. Are you game? :)

BTW, your lumping “choice” with free will makes your theology virtually indistinguishable from Calvinism. I’m not quite sure how you have convinced yourself you are not a Calvinist, at the very least you are a 4-point Calvinist (FYI, your hero Spurgeon was a 5-point Calvinist). You don’t like the ‘L’ because it says God ordained people for hell, yet you can’t explain, in any semblance of logic, how your theology can dismiss it. You merely say you disagree with it. Yet your theology demands it! It’s a natural consequence of your theology, so give Calvin and Augustine credit for at least recognizing this. Moreover, your statement on Jeremiah 18 sounds hyper-Calvinistic. Do you believe God ordains ALL things that happen? Do you believe nothing happens by chance?

I realize at the present time I won’t be able to convince you with a discussion of the scripture. But I do want you to know that I will continue to oppose your Calvinistic position every time I see it. Not just because I find it unbiblical, I find it very dangerous. Calvinistic theology in virtually every form provides a very good reason not to witness to anyone at all. It takes all the logic out of witnessing. So if you would answer one question in this thread, I would like you to give a good reason why fellow Christians who accept your theology should witness to anyone? I know I hold some beliefs that are controversial and some I could ultimately be shown are wrong, but one thing I can say is that none of my beliefs, to my present knowledge, would provide a fellow believer an excuse not to witness and spread the gospel. I would pray it gives you at least some pause when you consider that your theology provides an excuse not to be diligent with unbelievers about the gospel. Who benefits from such a theology, our Lord, or the prince of this world?

Fred

View Post

*
Now lets see.
*
I noted well your assertion that man in sin is unable to choose salvation [and wondered why this doesn't negate and abort free will at birth for you]

Now I take umbridge with you Fred in that you claim predestinationers are lazy soulwinners, not so, they are the greatest soulwinners in church history. There have never since the apostles arisen greater soulwinners than the likes of Whitefield. Spurgeon, D.L.Moody etc.

If I have never so much as read a syllable of Calvin you cannot accuse me of being a Calvinist-talk about predestination, it is in the bible, taught by Paul. Spurgeon often incurred the wrath of Calvinists, Why do I love Spurgeon? because he was a soulwinner, he loved the souls of men and plied the art of fishing and taught it to others, his words breathes the love of God to men.

Oh alas I am running out of time, as I said to Ike I am off line at home and have to beg steal and borrow.

The reason I believe as I do is because of the manner in which I was saved, I had read the KJV four times in 18 months before ploughing through other versions, Isaiah, psalms John many, many times. I am a bible person. If predestination is in the bible then I will believe in it no matter what. eek gotta go~try to get back

#118 ikester7579

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 10:53 AM

*
100 per cent in agreement that sin totally negates any freewill Isaac, [a very happy and prosperous new year to you and your family] the thought of God forcing anyone to do anything is totally alien, it is a human concept, alas Ike I am on a borrowed computer and have not my bible with me, [a warrier without her sword] but in Romans Paul talks about us being slaves to righteousness, then quickly adds "I am speaking in human terms because of your natural limitations" [must be CORINTHS ]

It's just that fishes belong in water, birds will take to the air, man builds roads to walk upon. nature is as nature does.

It is also filial, that is family, we are God's children, when He calls us we recognize His voice. It will always be so, I admit the flesh doesn't recognize God, like Paul when the goads came he kicked, that was because something was happening in his spirit, as he watched Stephen beg forgiveness for those who stoned him.

There is no forcing, you don't have to teach a snake to be a snake or a sheep to be a sheep. A baby will cry for his mum. It is all natural.

Now when I read that not a sparrow will fall to the earth but the Father knows, I believe that. God is in total control, and I am very glad that it is so.

I am not saying there are no questions, I don't know everything or even much. But I believe.

View Post


God does not run the world like a matrix. And the Bible has to be taken as a whole for truth. There are situations in the Bible where certain things apply, but not in every situation. I can take, if I wanted, and make a very good argument for OSAS-predestination, by hand picking several verses while ignoring others that contradict them. I debated this subject for almost 4 years. I have been on both sides of the issue. To find truth I had to step out of the box of belief and look at both sides with an independent view. Then allow the word to guide me towards which one was true. Not denomination, not what people were saying, just the Word.

Once I found it, it all became very clear.

Why did I go so far for so long to find truth? Because predestination is a salvation issue. To be wrong on this issue could mean grave consequences. And with all the good arguments out there for both sides, I figured the only way I could truly find truth was to go it alone and allow the Word to guide me.

Which opened some other truths to me about what was going on. Christians today adhere to much to denominational beliefs. No denomination can be 100% correct. Even the Bible says to check out all doctrine to make sure it's sound. It's not to say that if you find something wrong you should leave. But to know right from wrong on the issues, to not believe in what the Word does not support in every situation. To be willing to search out every situation before you commit. But never commit fully and be open to correction.

God's Word is a very complex book, when you get in-depth into studying it. Very few verses apply to every situation. If there is even one verse that contradicts, you have to ask yourself why. Then research to find out why. Then ask God to show you why. Then be willing to wait on the answer. Part of our learning to walk with God is learning the hardest thing to do. And that is to wait. This is because God does not see time as we see it, because time to Him is eternal. So teaching us to wait shows God we are being humble enough to do so and learn His knowledge His way. And not the way of another who could be wrong.

Why is that important? When we stand before God, He will not have everyone separated by denominations. There will be one body, and one book to judge us by for the life we lived. And we will give an account that will not be filtered by any denominational belief. And if we refer to our denomination teaching we will be corrected by the Word if wrong. That is why once the foundation is laid for faith in a denomination, and we are mature in our belief and wisdom. It is important for us to start the search for deeper truth that takes us beyond our denominational teachings. One where we learn how to be corrected by the Word even over what our denomination teaches us.

Once we are willing to be remolded from our denominational beliefs to the Word only. We gain a knowledge that is guided by the Holy Spirit. One in which the truth is told to you as you read the word because it becomes your teacher that supersedes all. When that connection is made, the journey towards more truth can start. And the wisdom from it is never ending.

#119 Fred Williams

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 12:25 AM

Hello Totten Linnet,

Please note that my current issue with you is entirely over your position on pre-destination and free will. We probably will agree on 80% of the rest of scripture.

I noted well your assertion that man in sin is unable to choose salvation [and wondered why this doesn't negate and abort free will at birth for you]

View Post


We are trying to show you that “choosing God” and “free will” are not mutually exclusive. I really want to reason with you on this. The only way to do so is if you answer my questions, and if you want I will answer questions you have. I can understand if you skim the details of my post, I’ve never been one to mince words and I know my comments are offensive. But at the very least, if you answer the questions I will scatter in the post in bold, maybe a month from now, or 10 years from now (or several years as it took me), you’ll see over time that the reason you can’t give good answers to them is because your answers are both contradictory, and not Biblically supportable.

Q1: Do you believe God ordains ALL things that happen?

Now I take umbridge with you Fred in that you claim predestinationers are lazy soulwinners, not so, they are the greatest soulwinners in church history. There have never since the apostles arisen greater soulwinners than the likes of Whitefield. Spurgeon, D.L.Moody etc. If I have never so much as read a syllable of Calvin you cannot accuse me of being a Calvinist-talk about predestination, it is in the bible, taught by Paul.


Wow, there is quite a bit packed in just your short paragraph above:

1) I’m not trying to rile you by saying you are a Calvinist. You do not need to read or even know who the guy was to be a Calvinist. In fact, Calvinism originated before Calvin, as far as I know it originated with Augustine (if you want to take it further, it really originated with Greek pagan philosophy, something Augustine was a BIG fan of). I’m saying you hold Calvinistic theology because this is what it is commonly called, because this is exactly what your words on this forum have revealed for some time. I realize you don’t think you are a Calvinist, but just because you don’t recognize this yet doesn’t exonerate you. B) The only tenant of Calvinism you apparently reject is that God doesn’t pre-destine people for hell, which I commend you for recognizing how awful such a position is, but by holding to the other 4 tenants of Calvinism, your position is completely inconsistent and illogical. What I am saying is, you can’t be a 4-point Calvinist and maintain any kind of coherent defense of your position. If you have the T-U-I-P in Calvinism, you must accept the L by default (some say it’s possible to be a 3-point Calvinist, but I agree with many others who make a strong case that all 5 tenants stand or crumble together, they can’t coherently exist separately).

2) Calvinists & “Predestinationers” are not the same thing. I believe you are hiding behind the word “Predestinationer” because pre-destination is Biblical and Calvinism is not. I believe in pre-destination, but as it pertains to salvation it is groups, not individuals. There are NO verses that claim any single person was pre-destined for salvation. At least I have not seen any in 20 years of serious Bible study. Only the bride was pre-destined for salvation, the body of believers. See Romans 8:29-30, & Ephesians 1:5, 11. Do you see any singularity in these passages? I don’t, nor do many Greek scholars I know. Also, before you cite Jer 1:5, it is not pre-destination, it’s an ordination to be a prophet. How many prophets failed to do God’s bidding? Plenty, and they are documented in the Bible.

3) I have little doubt that Spurgeon et al were great soul winners, winning more souls than I can ever imagine in my life time. But this does not vindicate their theology on free will! It’s a non- sequitur. There is also no way you could know the impact on all the individuals throughout time who have bought in to Calvinism and how it impacted their evangelism. How many souls weren’t saved because of those influenced in the flock who saw and took advantage, subconsciously or otherwise, of the built-in excuse to not witness?! Common sense says it must have a negative impact over time. One thing I have noticed is that most Calvinist preachers are so embarrassed about their position on free will, they subconsciously know it is illogical, contradictory, and makes God look bad, that they seldom preach on it! Consider modern day Calvinists. How many times did you hear the late (and great) D James Kennedy or John McAurthor give a sermon on free will? Hardly ever! Many knowledgeable CHristians do not even know these guys were 5-point Calvinists.

Q2: Can you provide a good reason why fellow Christians who accept your theology should witness to anyone?

The reason I believe as I do is because of the manner in which I was saved, I had read the KJV four times in 18 months before ploughing through other versions, Isaiah, psalms John many, many times. I am a bible person. If predestination is in the bible then I will believe in it no matter what.


Very commendable, and like I said I envy that you are light years farther along than I was at your age. Just don’t let yourself get stuck in some theology because your initial study led you there. You have many years to go to even reach the age Jesus believed it was appropriate to start teaching (30 years, which seems to be re-enforced by Numbers 4:3, 23, etc). You are correct that pre-destination is in the Bible and you should believe it, but not in the unbiblical manner it has so far led you. We have a huge advantage over great Christians of the past such as Spurgeon, since we can easily search words and phrases in the Bible, have easier access to the Hebrew and Greek (a mere right-click on our Bible program), etc. I guess I’m trying to make excuses for why otherwise great Christians have fallen for the nonsensical and completely unscriptural position of Calvinism.

Fred

#120 the totton linnet

the totton linnet

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 06:26 AM

Hi Fred, ooh I wish I were properly on line, how internet service providers work in the UK is different yo the US, Virgin Media hold what amounts to a monopoly in cable provision [because Blair wanted everyone online and made a deal with virgin to connect every home] but they diddle everyone they suddenly whack a treble charge and when you don't pay cut you off [British complexities] Hope I can sort it out soon.
*
Look Jesus came preaching "repent for the kingdom of God is near" [and by the way Fred and Ron and the world and his wife who disagree with me, I love christians of free-will persuasion, though I feel it is collossal theological error, there is no way I will let it affect sisterly love]

Jesus is not giving anyone a choice, never, never does He invite anyone to choose Him of their own free will. "Follow Me and I will make you, [fishers of men] or what do you desire?" When the people wanted to make Him King He hid Himself, when the rich young ruler would follow Him, He puts him off.

I am racing against the library clock guys

I want to show you what "free will" does to evangelism.

Here is the "free grace predestinationist" [ain't that awful?]

He preaches the kingdom of God, he preaches man,s problem, [sin] he preaches God's boon provision [pardon and new life through Christ, through the cross] that's his gospel peeps that is where he stops, he has done all that God Has told him too.

Now the hearer is in the hands of Almighty God and the blest Holy Ghost goes to work.

The man may rebel and kick, like Paul, or he may be like Nathaniel who submitted at once but in either case there is a thorough work beeen done in his heart done from start to finish by the Holy Ghost~a pure work, whatever was needed to bring that man to the end of himself and workings.

Now here is the free-will preacher

He preaches the KOG, he preaches man's problem, [sin] he preaches God's boon provision [pardon and newe life from Christ at the cross]

Now he does something more than the free-grace preacher, HE does the work of the Holy Ghost.

He calls upon the man to make a decision for Christ, [maybe in order to facitate the right decision he will start jumping up and down, and threatening hell fire and I wot not what else in order to coerse the right decision]

I am running ot of time

But he has done an awful thing, he has interupted the precious work of the Holy Ghost in the heart of the man, The man may well make a decision, perhaps the work of conversion is done, maybe it is not.

Many [because God is so gracious and merciful] are saved in this way, many, many come into church still in an unsaved condition.

Gotto go I'll come back ~ I'm back B) by the way call me Suz or Suzy I always use The Totton Linnet, it is my pen name for my poetry and by using it Google search pick it up on their engine and it gives me a listing.

This is exactly where the controversy arises over OSAS because many come into the fellowships create ALL kinds of prooblems while they are there and then fall away~that's why I see the free will theology as responsible for so many of the ills in evangelism.

When the work is done thoroughly in the heart by the Holy Ghost, there is no doubting it. He does ALL things well.

Did you realise this asking for decisions only began about 150 years ago? now it is very gratifying for the evangelist, he asks for a show of hands or for the people to come forward and there is a great show, visible results for his preaching BUT AT A COST a huge cost.

People come into the church, nothing has happened in their hearts, they are not sure if they believe or exactly what it is they believe but they are told they must "stand upon the word" Yes many are saved and saved thoroughly.

Many again come into the churches unsaved but get saved subsequently at a later time, perhaps during a revival time.

The all important thing was for people to know that there is a kingdom to be gained, a sure judgement to be avoided, sin to be put away at the cross and new life to be recieved. None of these things can be achieved or brought about by man or man's work it is wholly God's work. It may be done in an instant or it may take a little time.




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