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Osas Vs Unfogivable Sin.


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#21 chipwag64

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 12:12 PM

I assume the scripture in question, Matthew 12:31-32, is referencing the working of the Holy Spirit.
Earlier in the passage, Jesus healing power was being blasphemed as having come from Beelzebub by the Pharisees.
Jesus explains that Satan can not cast himself out of his kingdom, that doesn't make sense, so Jesus says that the Kingdom of God has come and tells them a parable about the strongman.
The point is that God cannot indwell a believer with the Holy Spirit until the unclean spirits are first removed.
If people see miraculous healings of God, and attribute that power to Satan, that is blaspheming.
Remember what happened in Acts 8 with Simon the sorcerer?
Simon had a following and a name for himself as the great power of God through his sorceries that bewitched the people..(people love magic tricks!..LOL).
When the true power of God came healing through the laying on of apostles hands, Simon wanted to buy that power.
He wanted to use the Holy Spirit as a side show, a money-maker, for his own gain. The Holy Spirit is blasphemed when He is passed off as something common, nothing more than a human ability, or even worse, attributed to evil.
If people don't believe that the Holy Spirit exists and teach others so, there goes the gospel!!
What good is repentance if we have no victorious power to take away that enslavement?
Look at the Day of Pentecost where people observed the speaking in tongues and remarked how they must have been drunk; if Peter hadn't explained from the prophecy of Joel that this was to come, they would have run scared after seeing tongues of fire and hearing rushing wind.
So, I believe blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is not allowing the Spirit to work in oneself due to unbelief and also to teach others so.

#22 CTD

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 05:16 PM

Question:

Let's say I believed in osas. And because of unconditional salvation, I decided to live it up, party, etc... Now I'm not saying all osas believe this, I'm using it as an example.

It's funny you should put it that way.

Romans chapter 6 is all about this kind of thinking.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Verse 15 begins another whole new explanation that it would be wrong.
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

There are other scriptures one would have to omit/ignore as well.

Anyway, what would you say about my salvation because of what I do?

1) Would you say I was never truly saved if I lived that way? And how through scripture would you determine this?
2) Would Christ accept me as a sheep, or would I be a goat for living such a life?

There are cut & dried cases, and there are cases which are difficult. If one had known Judas Iscariot earlier and not later, what would one have thought of him? There will be those who will be saved and squander their opportunities and screw up and have no reward at all. And have you ever noticed some of the things that went on in the early churches, among those who were saved?

It's not my job to pick & choose who's forgiven. Discernment consists of determining who is forgiven and doing a good job. Among those who aren't doing a good job, I expect there are a mix of saved and unsaved.

If there's some foolproof test, I haven't found it in scripture. And the church has little excuse for any infiltration at all, because the test should be administered on a regular basis. We see the church has always been infiltrated.

Saying that my life has to be as I believe, then you are actually admitting to kingdom works. Which is proof (evidence) of our salvation, not how we get it.

That is what no-osas is, You have to have evidence of your salvation. That is what the works judgment is all about.

Faith without works is what? Dead. Now if you enter this word (kingdom works) it becomes more clear.... Faih without kingdom works is dead. See how that makes more sense?

I'm no fan of adding words.

And I don't see how the capacity to lose salvation would clarify anything one bit. It sounds like a way to introduce fear into the Christian's walk. We know we are weak. What if in a moment of weakness, we screw up & all is lost? No good can come of that. Being afraid is the opposite of being bold.

You see works that you boast about are carnal because they bring no glory to God. And will burn up in the works judgement.
Works you do for God,and give glory to God, are kingdom works. This is the evidence of our salvation. And will not burn up. They will also be the works we get crowns for that we will toss at God's feet.

To have works that don't burn up, you have to do what?
To get crowns that you will toss at God's feet, you have to do what?

God's chosen people is another issue I will do another thread on.

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There are more evidences than works.

He that loveth not knoweth not God, for God is love - I John 4: (8?, I think)

If nobody can pluck me out of His hand, this does not prevent me from doing any of the works I could do if I went around being afraid. I expect it'd be the other way around.

I'm pretty sure I'm not the best one to be discussing this. It's very difficult for me to take the proposition seriously. God says He will chastise those whom He loves. This is true, and we see it happen. It's another type of evidence, and another reason the idea of losing salvation just doesn't make sense. Something that important I don't think I'm presuming too much in thinking it would've been included unmistakeably. Jesus said even if there weren't many mansions awaiting we would've been told, and losing salvation seems more important than even they.

You claim it's included because it's the only way you've found to resolve a few difficult passages. I don't think it promises to resolve them satisfactorily, and that'd pretty indirect even if it did.

God can do as He pleases, but it would be a distinct break-in-pattern to convey something that important in such an indirect manner. He loves us, and He wants us to know the truth. Things are indeed concealed, but look at the kind of things that are concealed. Look at the kind of things that are stated right out in the open. Which category of thing are we discussing? How does one imagine God is glorified if people unknowingly screw up and lose salvation?

#23 ikester7579

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 07:33 PM

There is no fear through faith. The fear you imply does not exist, but is used by osas to make people fear doing what they are supposed to do. Which is to test doctrine by scripture, not by personal opinion or bad examples. Both sides have bad exampes whether osas wants to admit to it or not. I have no problem admitting to it because that's how you learn what not to do. Which also shows what extremism does in both cases.

But the thing is, only one doctrine can be right. correct? And because this is a personal truth because we will "each" give an account. Is it not important to make sure?

Do you not open your Bible with the preconceived notion that no-osas is wrong? Were you not told by your denonmination that it was wrong and is used to scare people?

Then did you get your preconceived truth about it from the word, or from other man's opinion of it?

You see, I have been on both sides of the issue. I have heard what each side preaches about the other. I have believed in one and then the other. So I have no personal agenda when I do these threads.

I do them because I am concerned that if people rely more on what their denomination teaches then what the word teaches. Then they are more into a group truth than an individual truth with themselves and the word of God.

Are there any perfect deniminations out there? Of course not. Not one has perfect truth. Which means once we get our foundation laid by our denomination, we must strive for more truth that goes beyond what our denomination teaches.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

You see, man and his interpretations can only take us so far. There is a point in which we must cut some of those ties and allow God and His word to carry us even further.

When I "really" wanted the truth about the osas vs no-osas deal. I went to great lengths. Even to the point of becoming neutral enough not to allow my bias in either side effect what God and His word would show me. After all, are we judge by doctrinal belief, or God's word? And since there are no perfect doctrines, and we know this. Then the more important stuff we better make sure is correct.

Moving on to perfection to obtain the pwer of Christ to bring in the harvest for the kingdom requires that we know truth in order to relay truth.

Now if a bunch of the denominations are all messed up in their interpretations of the word. Then that would explain why the power that Christ showed us is not in most churches. Power is not in preconceived truth, but in actual written truth from the word. To many Christians, like me also, relied to much on the church, the people in the church, and the denomination to present us with the truth which gives us a foundation to work from. But like the house built on the sand,the first real storm can wash it away, or do great damage.

If I were to guess a percent of what each denomination has right. I would guess about 70-80% And that's being truthful. Which means the other percentage we have to find for ourselves.

Do you ever wonder why that you grow in Christ to a point and suddenly it seems to stop even though you want more?

If a denomination only has 70-80% truth, then how far can you grow before you hit a brick wall? Now there are churches that strive for more and their truth percent concerning the word is higher. But there are not many around, but they are the ones you will find that are spirit filled. And many in their churches have spiritual gifts. And those churches encurage growth in those gifts so that the person who obtains it through God can learn to master it in the way God would have them to.

Ever heard a person say: God does not heal, or do miracles anymore? The reason some churches teach this is because they cannot enter the truth percentage, concerning the word, which allows these gifts to manifest themselves. So they stay stuck in a doctrine, and a denomination that preaches this, and they will always never get to where they need to be because their excuse is also their problem.

An excuse is a lie cloaked in reason. It is never supported in God's word, but is always used to explain why an individual, or a group of people, cannot do what God says they can do.

2tim 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

#24 chipwag64

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 09:09 AM

Just an idea here,

If it hasn't already been discussed previously, maybe we need to define what it means to be saved.
What IS salvation, what are we saved from, how are we saved, when are we saved etc.
The vast majority of the English word translated "saved" comes from the Greek word "sozo" Strongs 4982.
From a primary word σῶς sōs̄ (contraction for the obsolete σάος saos, “safe”); to save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): - heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.
I believe that we can all agree that salvation is from our sins,wrath and eternal death, so is that all that our Lord wants to do? just save us from wrath and judgement? or is there more to this?
How did we obtain salvation? We were chosen (elect) 2 Thes 2:13, 2 Tim 1:9, we believed (Eph 1:13) we were sealed with the Holy Spirit.
How did we believe? Read 1 Peter chapter 1, we were born again (begotten), how were we born again? By incorruptible seed through the word, (Romans 10:17) for what reason? to receive an inheritance incorruptible, undefiled, we are kept (check out the greek word "phroureo") by the power of God, through faith.
How do we know if this happened to us? we love Jesus (vs. 8) we continue believing, we rejoice, we are obedient (vs. 14), we pray (vs. 17), we love one another.
What about works?
Read Ephesians 2:10, Titus 2:11-15
Works are done, not to obtain salvation, but for God's glory.
We can only work out our salvation with fear and trembling because it is God in us that is doing the work (Philip 2:12-13).
The faith/works debate is difficult, but I believe the overall message of James 2 is that IF you say that you have SAVING faith, it will show in your works.
The key is verse 19, James tells us that even the demons believe in God, but that doesn't SAVE them.
I hope that this may help understand that salvation is a gift of God, for His purposes, we are kept by His power, made possible by the death of His son, through the sanctification of His Spirit, we were foreknown by Him, called by Him, and will be raised to an inheritance by Him.
It's all about Him!!




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