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Verses That Make You Go Hmmm...


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#21 Adam Nagy

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 09:20 PM

But here is my question then.  How do you know your not reading your own interpretations into these verses, or for that matter other verses?  And how can you be sure that he isn't using the correct 'exegesis' when reading these verses?  Is it because they clearly do not agree with what is currently known about the world?

Your humble student. :)

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Hey Javabean,

This is a great question and there are a couple of scripture versus that must be acknowledged before I expand into an explanation and a disappointing conclusion... you'll understand. :lol:

First the verses:

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Does that say; scripture must never be examined, unpacked or understood on a deeper intimate level?

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

This is pretty clear. Scripture has meaning. That doesn't mean scripture can't be misunderstood or even misunderstood dogmatically but it does say simply that two people who agree to have contradictory meanings to scripture because it suits private needs are mishandling the Word of God.

Now let's see if we can reconcile a contrariety (not to be confused with a contradiction):

For first of all, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it. 19 For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you.

Wait wait wait. What is going in here? Is this telling us to be prepared for different beliefs within the church? That's the only reason I'd see for factions, especially when Paul clarifies that they are because of divisions.

Last:

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

I have some disappointing news for you, Javabean. We see through a glass darkly. So what do we do? The beauty of scripture is what it tells us about what and how to understand and where to start.

This one is a mouth full but we're on the home stretch and I pray God gives me the right words to tie it all together for you:

9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.

What just happened in all of that? Here is what happened and why proper teaching is so important for the body:

My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. 2 For we all stumble in many things...

We build off of the basics. What are the basics? They are the things that are repeated and expanded upon repeatedly in scripture. Do you want to know what's important to God? Make an effort to discover what He talks about the most. There are issues that are clear in scripture, not because they are simply laid out but because they are turned over and repeated.

Now what about other verses? Are there things in scripture that are often and easily misunderstood? ...yes there are... but they always reside in those verses that hit on issues that are peripheral.

Javabean, I never expect in this life to have a perfect understanding of everything that scripture says but I understand the important things because God, in His mercy, through condescension came to communicate His heart to an obstinate people in repeated and clarifying ways.

With a grasp of these broader truths it's easy to see that those verses that NoeL plucked out as troublesome verses are no longer troublesome. They were written to communicate God's heart to an obstinate people with understandable language. There is nothing inaccurate about those versus because they are perfectly clear in meaning to any person who respects ordinary language.

(If you get a chance read all of Isaiah 28. It really is a lot to take in.)

I truly expect this to produce more questions but I hope this gives a big picture perspective why those verses aren't as bothersome as some think they should be. Look back at those verses again and this time read the verses around them and I believe they will be even more plain in their scope.

#22 ikester7579

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 11:56 PM

You know I keep on going back to Mein Kampf, and his other writings here.  I get what you are saying here. But really He speaks out against Darwin and Evolution in Mein Kampf.

He is quoted as being a Creationist in the "Hitler Tabletalk" (Tischgesprache im Fuherhauptquartier)  I just don't think these videos do enough to prove otherwise.

But before we go down this path further, lets just agree to disagree.  I don't think I can convince you otherwise, and I don't think you can convince me otherwise.

What is obvious is that you really dislike Evolution, I just ask that you not try to Demonize Evolutionists by hinting that they are responsible for the Jews being gassed.  Its sick and disgusting to suggest it, or even hint at it.

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Just as well as you implying Hitler did it in the name of God.

A well known fact is that Hitler was a cronic liar. He broke every treaty he signed. His ideas about race are not supported in the Bible. But are supported in evolution (comparing man to ape). If you need another connection, you should research the eugenics movement. They did human experiments for Hitler. And you will never guess who was one of the people who headed it up trying to speed up human evolution. Darwin's cousin.

Here is a list of those who headed up the eugenics movement:

1) Francis Galton. Darwins cousin who through eugenics wanted to speed up human evolution.
2) Charles Davenport. Interested in human evolution.
3) Arthur Estabrook. Who also wanted to speed up human evolution through human sterilization of what was considered lower breeds of the human race. There was even a case in America that Estabrook testified in, that led to a woman being forced sterilized. http://iml.jou.ufl.e...terlization.htm

The bottom line about eugenics is that the three people who ran it were firm supporters of evolution, and sought it's progression in the human race by treating humans like cattle.

You want to start a thread on this?

#23 Javabean

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 07:04 AM

Just as well as you implying Hitler did it in the name of God.


Of course I completely agree with you. I was simply following that line of logic so you could see how horrible it is. People do bad things, usually they do bad things for their own personal reasons.

To try to hate an ideal because someone who followed it did bad things is just wrong, it wasn't the ideal it was the person. I think you would agree to that.

See this goes along with what I was saying Hitler did bad things to people, because he lacked human emotion, its probable that he was a Sociopath. Can you honestly say that a sane normal person would do this? It's obvious to me that it was neither his claim to Christianity, nor his supposed support of Evolution. ( I say claim and supposed because I do not honestly believe he followed any sort of Christian faith, and his speaking out against Evolution and Mr Darwin)

A well known fact is that Hitler was a cronic liar. He broke every treaty he signed. His ideas about race are not supported in the Bible. But are supported in evolution (comparing man to ape). If you need another connection, you should research the eugenics movement. They did human experiments for Hitler. And you will never guess who was one of the people who headed it up trying to speed up human evolution. Darwin's cousin. 

Here is a list of those who headed up the eugenics movement:

1) Francis Galton. Darwins cousin who through eugenics wanted to speed up human evolution.
2) Charles Davenport. Interested in human evolution.
3) Arthur Estabrook. Who also wanted to speed up human evolution through human sterilization of what was considered lower breeds of the human race. There was even a case in America that Estabrook testified in, that led to a woman being forced sterilized. http://iml.jou.ufl.e...terlization.htm

The bottom line about eugenics is that the three people who ran it were firm supporters of evolution, and sought it's progression in the human race by treating humans like cattle.

You want to start a thread on this?

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You know something I think it would be an interesting discussion about the evils mankind has been able to do to itself. We can see how it goes from there.

I would ask a favor though. Would you be able to start the thread? It seems I do not have the knack yet for creating threads that get a lot of people posting in them.

Thanks! :lol:

#24 Guest_NoeL_*

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 10:05 AM

Can we shut up about Hitler for a second? Eugenics and evolution are completely different things.

Adam, I appreciate the copypasta... well actually I don't, which is why I'm about to criticise you for it. You have a chronic double standard going on. As far as Creation goes, that's all gotta be literal! But as soon as the multitude of flat-Earth verses show up it's all "We see through a glass darkly".

Biblical scholars disagree with you.
Biblical interpreters disagree with you.
The majority of your own religion disagrees with you.
The VAST majority of Jews disagree with you (and they wrote it!)

To accuse ALL of them of eisegesis, and that your tiny group knows the TRUE meaning is just arogant beyond words. You'll need much more than that weak copypasta to convince them.



Which begs the question of why the double standard? If you think some liberal reading coupled with a misinterpretation of Isaiah 40:22 is enough to say those verses aren't literal, why can't you make way for old Earth and evolution? They're considered to be just as factual as a round Earth by the ones observing it.

#25 Javabean

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 09:23 AM

Hey Javabean,

This is a great question and there are a couple of scripture versus that must be acknowledged before I expand into an explanation and a disappointing conclusion... you'll understand. :lol:

First the verses:
Does that say; scripture must never be examined, unpacked or understood on a deeper intimate level?
This is pretty clear. Scripture has meaning. That doesn't mean scripture can't be misunderstood or even misunderstood dogmatically but it does say simply that two people who agree to have contradictory meanings to scripture because it suits private needs are mishandling the Word of God.

Now let's see if we can reconcile a contrariety (not to be confused with a contradiction):
Wait wait wait. What is going in here? Is this telling us to be prepared for different beliefs within the church? That's the only reason I'd see for factions, especially when Paul clarifies that they are because of divisions.

Last:
I have some disappointing news for you, Javabean. We see through a glass darkly. So what do we do? The beauty of scripture is what it tells us about what and how to understand and where to start.

This one is a mouth full but we're on the home stretch and I pray God gives me the right words to tie it all together for you:
What just happened in all of that? Here is what happened and why proper teaching is so important for the body:
We build off of the basics. What are the basics? They are the things that are repeated and expanded upon repeatedly in scripture. Do you want to know what's important to God? Make an effort to discover what He talks about the most. There are issues that are clear in scripture, not because they are simply laid out but because they are turned over and repeated.

Now what about other verses? Are there things in scripture that are often and easily misunderstood? ...yes there are... but they always reside in those verses that hit on issues that are peripheral.

Javabean, I never expect in this life to have a perfect understanding of everything that scripture says but I understand the important things because God, in His mercy, through condescension came to communicate His heart to an obstinate people in repeated and clarifying ways.

With a grasp of these broader truths it's easy to see that those verses that NoeL plucked out as troublesome verses are no longer troublesome. They were written to communicate God's heart to an obstinate people with understandable language. There is nothing inaccurate about those versus because they are perfectly clear in meaning to any person who respects ordinary language.

(If you get a chance read all of Isaiah 28. It really is a lot to take in.)

I truly expect this to produce more questions but I hope this gives a big picture perspective why those verses aren't as bothersome as some think they should be. Look back at those verses again and this time read the verses around them and I believe they will be even more plain in their scope.

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Adam you always have a way to explain things that I like. I unfortunately have not had a chance to re-read Isaiah 28 yet, but I will soon I'm sure.

And although Noel has a point I with not buying the "we see through the glass darkly" bit, I can understand your point. If you try your best to not put your own spin on something you don't completely understand its for the best.

But how do you handle those verses you don't have a full grasp on? How do you work them into your understanding of the Bible? And what do you do if you have a take on a particular verse that isn't accepted by the mainstream religious scholars? I'm sure you have a few that you go :huh: with.

#26 Arch

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 05:14 PM

Not entirely sure if this is on the same trail of thought as some of the other verses listed, but I've got a couple I'd like to hear a religious understanding of.

14: 34 women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.


2: 11 Let a woman learn in peace, fully submitted; 12 but I do not permit a woman to teach a man or exercise authority over him; rather, she is to remain at peace.


To me these verses seem pretty straight forward and feel like they should be taken literally. But I find it hard to believe any of the husbands here would treat their wives this way, and I'd struggle to believe any of the wives would allow themselves to be treated in this fashion.

Are these some 'cherry picked' quotes, and there's additional verses that explain them better? Surely there is something I'm not seeing?

Regards,

Arch.

#27 Adam Nagy

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 06:21 PM

I want to note how NoeL responded for one moment and ask if it is in a spirit of mutual growth and understanding or is it an over simplified attempt to pigeon hole Christians into his preconceptions?

But how do you handle those verses you don't have a full grasp on?

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There are lots of verses that make me go hmmmm. I have no problem admitting it. One of my favorite verses that is a double entendre, is this one:

Delight yourself also in the LORD,
And He shall give you the desires of your heart.

At first glance this verse seems to say simply that God will give you whatever you want, doesn't it?

I don't see it that way and neither does such a translation work out in real life. So is this verse just a puff of warm smoke or what? Who wouldn't want a god that will give them what they desire?

Here is the thing. When you realize that God, in Jesus Christ, came to do a work and set the captive free, by His blood, transforming us. This double entendre has only one meaning that makes sense. When God gives you the desires of your heart it means that He gives you the desires of your heart, meaning that He will change your desires to be the desires that are pleasing to Him. Since He'll give you those desires suddenly the other meaning works too and their is no conflict because if your desires are His desires, you will also have those desires fulfilled.

Being a student of scripture is exciting and always full of awesome surprises. :)

How do you work them into your understanding of the Bible?  And what do you do if you have a take on a particular verse that isn't accepted by the mainstream religious scholars?  I'm sure you have a few that you go  :D  with.

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I want to share a testimony. When I became a creationist it was through a personal study with very little help from fellow believers. Frankly, they didn't care. :huh:

Some of them still don't. :P

However, I had been a Christian for over ten years at the time and was so excited to share what I had found with my brother who had lead me to the Lord and my other sister who was also a fanatical believer. I was nervous because I didn't know if he would receive it, or even care or maybe he had bought the day-age theory or the gap-theory, I just didn't know. So with some nerves I remember mentioning that I had found some really cool information that was compelling regarding the age of the earth and evolution. It was so cool listening to his voice on the other end of the phone telling me so plainly; "Yeah, that's the only way it really makes sense." I didn't know it at the time but they were both YEC, my brother and my sister, and it was really cool comparing notes and talking about the different things that struck us as eye opening.

Javabean, if there are particular verses that have conflict surrounding them in the Church I believe the best thing I can do as a student and a teacher is to get familiar with the reasoning for both perspectives. That way, even if I have adopted and believe, with a certain degree of assuredness, a certain interpretation, I can still convey what others believe and why they believe it so that others can have an informed dialogue so they can wrestle with the best information available.

It's a joyous learning process. Anybody who thinks believing 'God did it' is boring isn't talking about the God I'm serving.

#28 Javabean

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Posted 02 September 2009 - 12:04 PM

I want to note how NoeL responded for one moment and ask if it is in a spirit of mutual growth and understanding or is it an over simplified attempt to pigeon hole Christians into his preconceptions?


Well unfortunately Noel didn't seem to be here for mutual benefit :) Which is a shame because I always have the best hopes for someone new.


There are lots of verses that make me go hmmmm. I have no problem admitting it. One of my favorite verses that is a double entendre, is this one:
At first glance this verse seems to say simply that God will give you whatever you want, doesn't it?

I don't see it that way and neither does such a translation work out in real life. So is this verse just a puff of warm smoke or what? Who wouldn't want a god that will give them what they desire?

Here is the thing. When you realize that God, in Jesus Christ, came to do a work and set the captive free, by His blood, transforming us. This double entendre has only one meaning that makes sense. When God gives you the desires of your heart it means that He gives you the desires of your heart, meaning that He will change your desires to be the desires that are pleasing to Him. Since He'll give you those desires suddenly the other meaning works too and their is no conflict because if your desires are His desires, you will also have those desires fulfilled.


Wait a moment, this quote made me think. What about free will? How does changing your desires effect free will? And why doesn't he just do this for everyone so no one needs to fear the fires of Hell?

Being a student of scripture is exciting and always full of awesome surprises. :o
I want to share a testimony. When I became a creationist it was through a personal study with very little help from fellow believers. Frankly, they didn't care. :lol: 

Some of them still don't. ;)

However, I had been a Christian for over ten years at the time and was so excited to share what I had found with my brother who had lead me to the Lord and my other sister who was also a fanatical believer. I was nervous because I didn't know if he would receive it, or even care or maybe he had bought the day-age theory or the gap-theory, I just didn't know. So with some nerves I remember mentioning that I had found some really cool information that was compelling regarding the age of the earth and evolution. It was so cool listening to his voice on the other end of the phone telling me so plainly; "Yeah, that's the only way it really makes sense." I didn't know it at the time but they were both YEC, my brother and my sister, and it was really cool comparing notes and talking about the different things that struck us as eye opening.

Javabean, if there are particular verses that have conflict surrounding them in the Church I believe the best thing I can do as a student and a teacher is to get familiar with the reasoning for both perspectives. That way, even if I have adopted and believe, with a certain degree of assuredness, a certain interpretation, I can still convey what others believe and why they believe it so that others can have an informed dialogue so they can wrestle with the best information available.

It's a joyous learning process. Anybody who thinks believing 'God did it' is boring isn't talking about the God I'm serving.

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Thank you for sharing with me your personal experiences. It just goes to show we are all people with our own stories to tell. I enjoyed the fact that you were able to connect with some of your relatives that you had been distanced from.

#29 Adam Nagy

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Posted 02 September 2009 - 02:23 PM

Wait a moment, this quote made me think.  What about free will?  How does changing your desires effect free will?  And why doesn't he just do this for everyone so no one needs to fear the fires of Hell?

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The whole idea of freewill and the ability to communicate love is, in essence, a choice. If I go to work for someone and I do things exactly the way I'm told and I grow to appreciate the logic so much that I adopt the taught methods as my own, at what point did my freewill get removed?

Thank you for sharing with me your personal experiences.  It just goes to show we are all people with our own stories to tell.  I enjoyed the fact that you were able to connect with some of your relatives that you had been distanced from.

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My family is so spread out that we all have our own lives but we are more connected now then ever, communication wise.

#30 the totton linnet

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Posted 02 September 2009 - 03:24 PM

Not entirely sure if this is on the same trail of thought as some of the other verses listed, but I've got a couple I'd like to hear a religious understanding of.
To me these verses seem pretty straight forward and feel like they should be taken literally. But I find it hard to believe any of the husbands here would treat their wives this way, and I'd struggle to believe any of the wives would allow themselves to be treated in this fashion.

Are these some 'cherry picked' quotes, and there's additional verses that explain them better? Surely there is something I'm not seeing?

Regards,

Arch.

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*
I take these scriptures literally and I think it is shame other women do not do so.
A little while ago we had in our fellowship a catholic lady who was converted and because she was a popular and active member of her parish we had meetings disrupted by visiting catholic women [this is not an anti-catholic post] who were very concerned about their friend, she had no been converted by any of our members and how she came to gravitate to our little prayer group is not clear. But her friends were hotly displeased and made their opposition to us very plain by shouting out in the meetings and on any point of doctrine that they heard that they disapproved [which was not a few] they would shout out very loudly in opposition. Our men are very gentle and it was all a bit painful for them. Now I have a catholic upbringing and know all the doctrinal catch points so I raised my hand to give my own testimony. The same letter you quote from Corinthians is the same letter in which Paul admonishes that if women are to pray or prophecy [that is preach] they are to be veiled or wear a hat, their hair is to be covered. So quite obviously the portion you have quoted has to be balanced against that, obviously the kind of speaking out in church was not speaking as in ministry but the kind of shoutings out we were experiencing in our little fellowship and I can tell you it IS shameful, I squirmed for the brothers who as I have said were of the more gentle sort.
So not long after I started to speak, came loud shoutings, and I stopped and and addressed the woman politely "madam do you believe in the teachings of St. Paul?" she was a good catholic so of course she had to agree that she did. I said "do you believe that his teachings are authorative for the church today?" yes of course she believed, so I opened the bible at the very passage yoou quoted and read it to her and said "if it were St. Paul speaking directly to you would you obey?" I then pointed out to her that if I were to come to her church while mass was being said and started to shout, would that be a proper thing to do? further I offered to meet her after the meeting along with the brothers and discuss, perhaps over coffee her grieviances. Of course they left [not quietly] but that is what happened. I have learned so much bible truth by having the actual lesson acted out in that way.
No womn should not have authority over men, teach/preach well that is difficult to define isn't it? for example if I preach [and the men had better keep silence when I preach :lol:] and someone learns something they didn't know??? See we ask God about these seeming difficulties, they do not stumble us, God is a wonderful teacher, and I believe this means to teach or define a new doctrine, well I would be suspicious [and AM suspicious] at any new doctrine, no matter who teaches it.

#31 Arch

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Posted 02 September 2009 - 04:39 PM

Hey totton, thanks for sharing the story. Made me laugh :lol:

Any chance you could direct me to the passage about needing the veil to speak in Church? I'd like to be able to use that.

I do find it kind of ironic that it required another woman to speak in the Church to silence the woman who was causing trouble. Two wrongs making a right perhaps?

Regards,

Arch.

#32 Javabean

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Posted 02 September 2009 - 06:23 PM

*
I take these scriptures literally and I think it is shame other women do not do so.
A little while ago we had in our fellowship a catholic lady who was converted and because she was a popular and active member of her parish we had meetings disrupted by visiting catholic women [this is not an anti-catholic post] who were very concerned about their friend, she had no been converted by any of our members and how she came to gravitate to our little prayer group is not clear. But her friends were hotly displeased and made their opposition to us very plain by shouting out in the meetings and on any point of doctrine that they heard that they disapproved [which was not a few] they would shout out very loudly in opposition. Our men are very gentle and it was all a bit painful for them. Now I have a catholic upbringing and know all the doctrinal catch points so I raised my hand to give my own testimony. The same letter you quote from Corinthians is the same letter in which Paul admonishes that if women are to pray or prophecy [that is preach] they are to be veiled or wear a hat, their hair is to be covered. So quite obviously the portion you have quoted has to be balanced against that, obviously the kind of speaking out in church was not speaking as in ministry but the kind of shoutings out we were experiencing in our little fellowship and I can tell you it IS shameful, I squirmed for the brothers who as I have said were of the more gentle sort.
So not long after I started to speak, came loud shoutings, and I stopped and and addressed the woman politely "madam do you believe in the teachings of St. Paul?" she was a good catholic so of course she had to agree that she did. I said "do you believe that his teachings are authorative for the church today?" yes of course she believed, so I opened the bible at the very passage yoou quoted and read it to her and said "if it were St. Paul speaking directly to you would you obey?" I then pointed out to her that if I were to come to her church while mass was being said and started to shout, would that be a proper thing to do? further I offered to meet her after the meeting along with the brothers and discuss, perhaps over coffee her grieviances. Of course they left [not quietly] but that is what happened. I have learned so much bible truth by having the actual lesson acted out in that way.
No womn should not have authority over men, teach/preach well that is difficult to define isn't it? for example if I preach [and the men had better keep silence when I preach  :rolleyes:] and someone learns something they didn't know??? See we ask God about these seeming difficulties, they do not stumble us, God is a wonderful teacher, and I believe this means to teach or define a new doctrine, well I would be suspicious [and AM suspicious] at any new doctrine, no matter who teaches it.

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Totten I love your posts, but If I may ask...could you please put a space between paragraphs please???? It makes them easier to read :D

If not I will still read them and love them the same :D

#33 the totton linnet

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Posted 02 September 2009 - 06:48 PM

Hey totton, thanks for sharing the story. Made me laugh :rolleyes:

Any chance you could direct me to the passage about needing the veil to speak in Church? I'd like to be able to use that.

I do find it kind of ironic that it required another woman to speak in the Church to silence the woman who was causing trouble. Two wrongs making a right perhaps?

Regards,

Arch.

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The scripture portion is 1.Corinthians. ch.11.vs.5-6. I could tell you a lot of stories that would make you laugh, sometimes God's lessons are a little rough [on our vanity] I have had whole parables acted out in real life so to the letter that it would make you put your hand to your mouth in wonder, and God does have a sense of humour. :D I gotta tell ya , totally unrelated to the womens issue.
I was walking along Regents St. London and had to navigate past a bunch of about 150 people waiting to get into a posh restaurant, they were all on the pavement outside, as I was fighting my way through [they were a goodly natured crowd] I realised they were born again christians from their talk, so I stopped to talk to this guy, like "who are you all" and stuff.
So we fell to talking like you do, swapping stories, and I started shouting my big mouth off [something I am prone to] getting too big for my boots and stuff. And this guy was amazed at my stories, really taken up like, and he seemed to be somewhat of a big shot himself, as though he was an organiser of the event, he didn't say that he just seemed to be.
So he says "listen we're having a dinner here tonight [they were business men] then there is a time of sharing, YOU have GOT to join us and share some of this stuff." he was really excited, and I was anxious about finding a ministry and all so I thought maybe this was an opportunity, although I was genuinely abashed "no, no, couldn't possibly, I haven't been invited" all that kind of stuff, and I meant it.
"I AM INVITING YOU" says he, "just give me a moment and I'll set it all up" so off he goes, I mean he was wearing a tux and dicky bow the works.
Well he comes back and a great surge happened and we were swept into the restaurant. And he takes me over to the TOP TABLE and sits me down, I was beginning to tremble at the knees, "you wait there" he says "I will arrange for you to speak after the dinner" I mean I was in me togs, all these people were dressed up like fourpenny rabbits, the women were in evening gowns, the palms of my hands were sweating, and off he goes again leaving me all alone on this huge top table and all these nice people were looking at ME and conferring with eah others nodding in my direction like "who's she?"
I never saw that guy again, the meal cost me an absolute fortune, but the worst was to come.
after about a lifetime of sitting on my todd at this huge table with everyone staring at me a door opened to my left and an extremely distinguished and polite gentleman came over to me and gently put his arm around my shoulder and said "I am so sorry, there seems to be a mistake, you are sitting in the top speakers place, I am very sorry but you'll have to move." The place was hushed like you could hear a pin drop and all eyes were on me as I got up and made my way through the now crowded tables [you talk about red-faced] and there was one tiny place at the back where I could fit into and shrivel up and die.
And as I was making my way back there I remembered the story Jesus told about "when you are invited to a feast do not sit at the highest place lest he who invited you has invited someone more important than you and you will have to make room in shame and take a lower seat."
Now that was a hard lesson that and yes it WAS God, but it was a good lesson to learn, and one not easily forgotten. You will think God is mean to do that, but human pride is meaner and He is preparing us for future things, and I can tell that story and laugh my head off about it now.
When I see very important persons puff their chests and prognosticating about things they don't know about, I shake my head. It is best to learn things now than just go on all proud and puffed up to learn even harder lessons further along.

#34 the totton linnet

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Posted 02 September 2009 - 06:50 PM

Totten I love your posts, but If I may ask...could you please put a space between paragraphs please????  It makes them easier to read :D 

If not I will still read them and love them the same :D

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Hi, right I will try. :rolleyes:

#35 Arch

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Posted 02 September 2009 - 07:11 PM

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Hi, right I will try.  :rolleyes:

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Hey totton. Thanks for that, I'd be really appreciative too. Your posts are valuable, and I'd rather not miss out on them because it looks like too much work :D

And thanks too for the second story. I'm not sure whether to laugh or feel sorry for you, but I guess the important thing is you grew as a person.

Regards,

Arch.

#36 the totton linnet

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Posted 02 September 2009 - 07:21 PM

Hey totton. Thanks for that, I'd be really appreciative too. Your posts are valuable, and I'd rather not miss out on them because it looks like too much work :rolleyes:

And thanks too for the second story. I'm not sure whether to laugh or feel sorry for you, but I guess the important thing is you grew as a person.

Regards,

Arch.

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In sharing a story like that especially if people don't know the Lord and how He deals I must point out that He knows everyone of us better than we know ourselves, He does not deal with everyone the same and if you were not able to go through an experience like that He wouldn't do it. God is so extraordinary gentle in His dealings. And He has enough blessings to keep us chipper. He's Father.

#37 the totton linnet

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Posted 02 September 2009 - 07:38 PM

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In sharing a story like that especially if people don't know the Lord and how He deals I must point out that He knows everyone of us better than we know ourselves, He does not deal with everyone the same and if you were not able to go through an experience like that He wouldn't do it. God is so extraordinary gentle in His dealings. And He has enough blessings to keep us chipper. He's Father.

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George Whitefield was a great evangelist in the mid 1700s and he was not a brave man. He was riding into London with a friend and stopped to give his last crown to a beggar, and was scolded by his friend, "God will repay it " says George. They rode on together when suddenly a highway man sprang out upon them. Of course GW had given his last crown away so all the robber got was a couple of bob from the other guy. Glad to have escaped with their lives they wer dismayed when the robber turned and galloped after them again and fearing the worse, the highway man had a pistol. He demanded Georges coat which was better than his own-just filthy rags. So they set off again relieved to be still alive George wearing the filthy smelling coat, when to their absolute horror the robber came galloping after them AGAIN.

This time he was shouting and George and his friend rode full pelt into London screaming in terror "help, murder" When they got to safety they found out why in a secret pocket of the coat he had exchanged the robber had forgotten there were 80 gold crowns. so "give and it shall be given unto you again full measure."

#38 Arch

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Posted 02 September 2009 - 09:54 PM

Hahaha, awesome story. True I'll take it? It's great when your karma comes back to you that fast :rolleyes:

#39 de_skudd

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Posted 03 September 2009 - 08:34 AM

Wait a moment, this quote made me think.  What about free will?  How does changing your desires effect free will?  And why doesn't he just do this for everyone so no one needs to fear the fires of Hell?

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Meaning that the closer you get to God, the better you understand how to be less selfish, less self centered, and more God centered. Your hearts desires become more like the desires that were displayed by Christ (who was God in flesh). God doesn’t change anything you don’t want changed (hence free will), but that comes with consequences as well. Your free will plays into everything you do, or choose not to do. God may be leading you in one direction, and you may decide not to go that way (See Jonah for example, or Peter prior to his maturing). He (God) won’t make you do the right thing; He will only urge you to do the right thing.

He will do this for anyone, but not everyone will listen and follow.

#40 de_skudd

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Posted 03 September 2009 - 08:34 AM

P.S. That's why it called "free will". :rolleyes:




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