Jump to content


Photo

What Designed The Designer?


  • Please log in to reply
211 replies to this topic

#181 larrywj2

larrywj2

    Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 603 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Age: 50
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Sparks, Nv

Posted 10 November 2009 - 01:32 AM

Because the natural processes of the universe do not explain the design elements in biology.  While natural selection works in micro-evolution, there is no evidence of natural selection in macro-evolution.  The only plausible explanation is the designer did it.

How the designer did it, I'm not certain.  I still don't buy into Biblical Genesis, but clearly something is designing organisms.  In fact, I prefer to discard Genesis, because I imagine the designer is still designing new life forms on Earth.  Even to this day.  The Bible does not allow for that.

View Post

I think you have read into the Bible. I am not aware of any prohibition, Biblically, of new organism creation. I also believe there were creatures we have no idea of, unless we allow that mythology may have some base in reality.

Dragons? We have llizards. There were lizards that flew, before they were too big survive, ice age, etc. Methane is a good enough combustion gas for the flame and most animals are pretty good at making it, and all the nights in the tales complained about the smelly breath. Need some protection for the throat mouth etc. There are plenty of animals that exist in heat extremes above and below the ocean. Some (maybe all) flamingos hunt in volcanic temperature pools for there meals. Of course it would be wiser if the flame was only outside the body. Protections could be minimal then. Now we need to ignite the flame. Maybe an electric charge? Every animal has an electrical supply, some produce obvious electircal charges; eels, fireflies. Could be done, maybe it already was.

In the past I have been challenged to imagine new organisms. As I just showed, I can imagine a pretty elaborate new organism, but science has already engineered wonderous, if itsy bitsy, organisms, such as oil spill cleaner uppers. Not in mass use yet, but we will get there.

The same can be said for aliens, as long as we are on new organisms. The Bible does not claim there is no other life or will never be other life. It is difficult reading the Bible to expect that there are other planets inhabited yet. But even in ToE there is a first inhabited planet. Maybe we are it and there more to follow. Quite possible from both views.

#182 larrywj2

larrywj2

    Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 603 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Age: 50
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Sparks, Nv

Posted 10 November 2009 - 01:36 AM

Infinite regress doesn't say something came from nothing.  It says something is eternal.  No matter how far we go back there is no beginning.

God is eternal. . .

#183 larrywj2

larrywj2

    Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 603 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Age: 50
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Sparks, Nv

Posted 10 November 2009 - 01:54 AM

Christians have to have faith in the thousands of things in the Bible that contradict everyday experience is true.

Name one. You claimed thousands so I am confident you can point out one.

Faith that God exists, faith that God wrote the Holy Bible through the Holy spirit through people, faith that mistranslation has not occurred at every point, faith their interpretation is correct,... etc.

Non of those are possible contradictions. They are questions of faith. To answer the two that are able to be falsified, mistranslation and interpretation; the Bible has never been succesfully challenged regarding either. There are too many documents in agreement to discount the Bible as a reliably translated document.

If, by interpretation, you are citing a man reading and relaying his thoughts. Beware, sometimes men get it wrong.

That is false and you know it.  As an atheist I admit I have faith in creationism.  I have no problem admitting that I have faith. 

The only reason it APPEARS that atheist do not want to admit they have faith, is because they don't understand the meaning of faith as you and I do.

View Post

Hey, do I get some credit there? :rolleyes: Kidding. Now go rub shoulders wth some of the other Athognutionists. Help them see the light. Faith is not bad, everybody has some. Although it can lead us astray, look at us, we (though I did not help) elected Obama. Blind faith in action.

#184 larrywj2

larrywj2

    Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 603 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Age: 50
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Sparks, Nv

Posted 10 November 2009 - 01:56 AM

Christians have to have faith in the thousands of things in the Bible that contradict everyday experience is true.

Name one. You claimed thousands so I am confident you can point out one.

Faith that God exists, faith that God wrote the Holy Bible through the Holy spirit through people, faith that mistranslation has not occurred at every point, faith their interpretation is correct,... etc.

Non of those are possible contradictions. They are questions of faith. To answer the two that are able to be falsified, mistranslation and interpretation; the Bible has never been succesfully challenged regarding either. There are too many documents in agreement to discount the Bible as a reliably translated document.

If, by interpretation, you are citing a man reading and relaying his thoughts. Beware, sometimes men get it wrong.

That is false and you know it.  As an atheist I admit I have faith in creationism.  I have no problem admitting that I have faith. 

The only reason it APPEARS that atheist do not want to admit they have faith, is because they don't understand the meaning of faith as you and I do.

View Post

Hey, do we get some credit there? :rolleyes: Kidding. Now go rub shoulders wth some of the other Athognutionists. Help them see the light. Faith is not bad, everybody has some. Although it can lead us astray. Look at US, we (though I did not help) elected Obama. Blind faith in action.

#185 Ron

Ron

    Advanced Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,530 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Age: 50
  • Christian
  • Creationist
  • Johnstown, PA

Posted 10 November 2009 - 09:41 AM

How is this faith measured?  Is it like the Wysong quote?  You measure it by how many things a person has to have faith in its parts, in order to believe it.  Because to me Christianity is no better than evolution.

Christians have to have faith in the thousands of things in the Bible that contradict everyday experience is true.

Faith that God exists, faith that God wrote the Holy Bible through the Holy spirit through people, faith that mistranslation has not occurred at every point, faith their interpretation is correct,... etc.

That is false and you know it.  As an atheist I admit I have faith in creationism.  I have no problem admitting that I have faith. 

The only reason it APPEARS that atheist do not want to admit they have faith, is because they don't understand the meaning of faith as you and I do.

View Post


Faith can be measured in many ways Lounge. But, most importantly, faith is measured by how far we will go in trusting something or someone that cannot readily be explained or examined. And to what degree we are [still] willing to believe in said phenomena, and to what degree we are willing to defend it. Do we fully believe the phenomena, so much so that we are willing to dogmatically defend it? (i.e. do we make statements like “evolution is a fact!” despite never having seen one species evolving into another, or are willing to defend evolution by asserting “if we just give it a few million years, and then you’ll see”. On the other side, do we make statements like “Creation is a fact!” despite never having seen God create a universe?) But the fact is, there ARE varying levels of faith that can be measured. And the levels of faith you are willing to believe are determinant upon your experiences.

For example: Jesus healed many, many people during His ministry. These healings were eye witnessed by many-many people. Some of which committed their testimony to posterity via the written word, and some of which committed their testimony to posterity via explaining it to others who transcribed these testimonies via the written word. And many who witnessed the healed walking around “healed” long after the one, through whom the healings were preformed, were gone from this Earth. And they committed this testimony to posterity via the written word.

Now, there is an extreme amount of faith, both for and against these testimonies… Faith that these healings did happen, and faith that they didn’t (even in the face of the supporting evidence). And EVEN Jesus saw [and commented often] on the affect that a lack-of-faith had, even on “His” healing ministry. AND, He saw the affect that the faith of those who were healed, and the faith of those around the “healed” had in the healing process. So, faith [and the amounts of faith] can adversely affect the physical, and faith [and the amounts of faith] can positively affect the physical.

Having said that, I can say that I have personally witnessed MANY “miraculous” healings on friends, family and even on myself. But your acceptance of those healings will depend upon “your” faith level. You may have the faith that they did happen, or the faith that they didn’t happen. But, regardless of the amounts of faith you have in my testimony, your faith (positive or negative) has absolutely no bearing on the FACT that these healings did happen. And your response to this posting will give a measurable account on your faith (positive or negative). And, dependant upon your faith proclivities, it may not matter how much empirical evidence I provide for these “miraculous” healings, you may STILL come up with excuses that they didn’t happen. And that faith (whether positive or negative) is measurable and obvious.

#186 Loungehead

Loungehead

    Troll

  • Banned
  • PipPipPip
  • 260 posts
  • Age: 33
  • no affiliation
  • Creationist
  • New Zealand

Posted 10 November 2009 - 11:40 AM

Wow Ron, I'm genuinely impressed. Your post is thoughtful.

#187 Ron

Ron

    Advanced Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,530 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Age: 50
  • Christian
  • Creationist
  • Johnstown, PA

Posted 10 November 2009 - 12:12 PM

Wow Ron, I'm genuinely impressed.  Your post is thoughtful.

View Post


I like to think my posts are always thoughtful Lounge. Do you believe somehow that I don't put thought into my posts? That's arrogant, supercilious and presumptuous on your part. And quite condescending as well.

#188 Loungehead

Loungehead

    Troll

  • Banned
  • PipPipPip
  • 260 posts
  • Age: 33
  • no affiliation
  • Creationist
  • New Zealand

Posted 10 November 2009 - 12:20 PM

I like to think my posts are always thoughtful Lounge. Do you believe somehow that I don't put thought into my posts? That's arrogant, supercilious and presumptuous on your part. And quite condescending as well.

View Post

I'm sorry for giving you a compliment.

#189 Guest_FrankH_*

Guest_FrankH_*
  • Guests

Posted 10 November 2009 - 12:51 PM

God is eternal. . .

View Post

Then why must the universe finite?

Before you say, "Science shows us", remember this is the same science which you question all the time. Even I know science doesn't know all. It is the alternative, that we surrender any cognitive function and say "God did it" and drop it there that is a real cop out.

Why is it okay to select those parts of science you like and reject others which are based on the same sound arguments and theories as the ones you accept?

#190 Guest_FrankH_*

Guest_FrankH_*
  • Guests

Posted 10 November 2009 - 12:53 PM

Name one. You claimed thousands so I am confident you can point out one.

Slavery.

Honoring your family and then you must hate them if you are to love Jesus.

Genesis 1 and Genesis 2

Thousands may be hyperbole but the evidence is there that the bible contradicts itself often.

#191 Ron

Ron

    Advanced Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,530 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Age: 50
  • Christian
  • Creationist
  • Johnstown, PA

Posted 10 November 2009 - 12:57 PM

I'm sorry for giving you a compliment.

View Post


Riiiiiiight... A back handed complement :D

Read it again (in context with all of our other conversations). Don't worry you'll eventually see it.

#192 Ron

Ron

    Advanced Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,530 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Age: 50
  • Christian
  • Creationist
  • Johnstown, PA

Posted 10 November 2009 - 01:07 PM

Then why must the universe finite?

View Post

Because all of the logic, rational and science we have demands it.

Before you say, "Science shows us", remember this is the same science which you question all the time.

View Post

First - if you aren’t questioning science, you are a devotee (a science religionists)
Second - I don’t have a problem with real science, just evolutheistic pseudo-science.
Third - ALL of the logic, rational and science we have demands that the universe is finite. That you would even entertain differently isn’t questioning science, its questioning sanity and rational.

Even I know science doesn't know all.  It is the alternative, that we surrender any cognitive function and say "God did it" and drop it there that is a real cop out.

View Post

As long as evolutheistic pseudo-science is prevalent, science struggles to know anything. Especially with the falsiability theology they use. The God did it excuse is no different that using the evolution did it, or nature did it theology of evolution.

Why is it okay to select those parts of science you like and reject others which are based on the same sound arguments and theories as the ones you accept?

View Post


Again (hopefully you’ll listen)…. As scientists, we question everything, and rule out nothing beforehand. The pseudo-scientist that eliminates prior to examination is a fool with an agenda.

#193 Loungehead

Loungehead

    Troll

  • Banned
  • PipPipPip
  • 260 posts
  • Age: 33
  • no affiliation
  • Creationist
  • New Zealand

Posted 10 November 2009 - 01:11 PM

Read it again (in context with all of our other conversations). Don't worry you'll eventually see it.

View Post

I did. Most of your other posts, while well intended, lack clarity. They tend to be rambling dull diatribes against whatever bug bear you have at the time.

The one above, explains you position extremely well, which is why my only respone to it was a compliment. I can't argue with such well posted thoughts, even I did disagree with some of what you said. I was so impressed with your comments that I can actually see you put some thought into your response. It wasn't your usual knee-jerk reactionary fumblings. I appreciated what you had to say.

#194 Ron

Ron

    Advanced Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,530 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Age: 50
  • Christian
  • Creationist
  • Johnstown, PA

Posted 10 November 2009 - 01:36 PM

The one above, explains you position extremely well, which is why my only respone to it was a compliment.  I can't argue with such well posted thoughts, even I did disagree with some of what you said.  I was so impressed with your comments that I can actually see you put some thought into your response. 

View Post


Then I humbly apologize as I took your post the wrong way.

#195 larrywj2

larrywj2

    Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 603 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Age: 50
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Sparks, Nv

Posted 11 November 2009 - 01:58 AM

Then why must the universe finite?

One has nothing to do with the other.

God is eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent. His parameters are not the same as the universe. By finite, I imply that the universe is contained. I don't now that there must be a physical barrier. Maybe it is only a set of laws that contain it.

Regardless of God's existance, the universe must have a limit of physical presence. A point at which there is nothing beyond. This is true of a universe formed by God and maintianed by Him or a universe based on ToE, Big Bang, repetative cycles, etc. I Believe science supports the premise that there is a limit, though unkown, to the universe.

Before you say, "Science shows us", remember this is the same science which you question all the time.  Even I know science doesn't know all.  It is the alternative, that we surrender any cognitive function and say "God did it" and drop it there that is a real cop out.

I don't question science. I don't make the claim that "God did it" unless relating to a specific incident, such as a miracle, parting seas, etc. Such have no other answer. I don't expect anyone to accept the Genesis account of Creation week because "God said so". Search all my posts, not a cop out in any. I believe the creation week is true. I am an idiot if I expect to argue for ID based on any Biblical account.

Why is it okay to select those parts of science you like and reject others which are based on the same sound arguments and theories as the ones you accept?

View Post

I don't reject any of science. Science is a process. Within the sciences there are some arguments that I don't accept. Anythng found to be fact by science I would be a fool to not accept. What fact in science is it that you believe I reject?

Why the assumption that I can't believe in science and God? If God is real, He created all that is studied within the many fields of science. He therefore is the founder of the facts science will uncover. Regardless of God's existance the facts will be uncovered. I have faith that they will not discount any portion of the Bible. But, using the Bible to argue for the existance of a fact, that is not a prosperous avenue.

#196 larrywj2

larrywj2

    Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 603 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Age: 50
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Sparks, Nv

Posted 11 November 2009 - 02:26 AM

Slavery.

Slavery is a contradiction? I am confused. Do you believe that God wants me to have slaves? That must be a new part of the Bible. There were many owners of slaves in the Bible. I am not aware of any commandment, directive, etc. that dictates I should own or support slavery. I am not even aware of a specific allowance of God for the ownership of other humans. Please enlighten me? Was it not God that ordered the Israelites freed from Egypt?

Biblically, we are all descendants of Adam and Eve, and later of Noah, his sons and their wives. We are all created equal, I think I read that in some other important document too.

Honoring your family and then you must hate them if you are to love Jesus.

I have discussed this passage many times. In translation the intended meaning is lost but the proper form of translating must be applied so the word hate must be used because it is the closest available in english. The original writing makes it clear that "hate" was not implied but the the love of Jesus is so great, and love of anything else so minor by comparison that it might seem not to exist when set side by side. Another view of translation suggests that it is along the line of reasoning "hate the sin, not the sinner". Hate the life we must currently suffer in, not the people we live in it with.

Genesis 1 and Genesis 2

You are saying they don't agree? Why?
They are separate tellings of the same events with differing emphaisis.

. . . evidence is there that the bible contradicts itself often.

View Post

So far it seems a problem of your understanding, not of contradiction. It is quite possible to pick up any book and find contradiction by comparing one line to another. Similar contradictions exist when making similar comparisons of the laws of any country, state, etc. But when read in context of the whole document and related documents, such conradictions cease to exist.

Please do continue. I am interested in discovery of these contradictions. You rightly admitted that thousands was hyperbole. But surely you can find hundreds, dozens? A few?

#197 CTD

CTD

    Banned

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,059 posts
  • Age: 44
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Missouri

Posted 11 November 2009 - 03:22 AM

Slavery is a contradiction? I am confused.  Do you believe that God wants me to have slaves?  That must be a new part of the Bible. 

View Post

Perhaps you should try to track down a copy of the Scoffer's Re-re-re-revised Annotated Straw Bible.

#198 larrywj2

larrywj2

    Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 603 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Age: 50
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Sparks, Nv

Posted 11 November 2009 - 04:10 AM

Perhaps you should try to track down a copy of the Scoffer's Re-re-re-revised Annotated Straw Bible.

View Post

I am not confused about the Bible. I am confused about the supposed contradiction the Frank seems to be implying. I have KJV, NIV, ASR, adn other hard copies. Digitally I draw upon the Digital Catholic. I found no meritable difference between them, regarding salvation and such pertinent doctrines.

Hopefully Frank will elaborate.

Thanks for offering. And if you believe I need some insight now or future, do not hesitate to throw in. Steel sharpens steel.

#199 Ron

Ron

    Advanced Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,530 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Age: 50
  • Christian
  • Creationist
  • Johnstown, PA

Posted 11 November 2009 - 04:42 AM

Slavery.

Honoring your family and then you must hate them if you are to love Jesus.

Genesis 1 and Genesis 2

Thousands may be hyperbole but the evidence is there that the bible contradicts itself often.

View Post


You've ripped them out of context, now elaborate.

#200 Javabean

Javabean

    Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 950 posts
  • Location:Harrisburg Pa
  • Age: 33
  • no affiliation
  • Atheist
  • Harrisburg

Posted 11 November 2009 - 10:03 AM

Hey I have a quick question.

It reguards the Genesis account of Creation. In it God waits until a later 'day' to create the heavens correct? So doesn't that mean that God was in the 'physical universe'?

If the answer is yes, then that would mean the the universe has always been eternal.

If God is eternal, because the bible doesn't say that he had a beginning, then the universe where he resided prior to creating the heavens would also had to have been eternal.

Where else would have God 'lived'?




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users