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Lucifer = The Devil..why?


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#61 ikester7579

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Posted 20 March 2010 - 10:10 PM

Since the original scrolls are not complete, that still can be questioned.

What is good for the goose...

Actually, there are many other scriptures that support ultimate reconciliation...but my original comment is way off the OP topic and should be addressed in another thread.

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I'm not the one who wants to push the issues of Bible translation to the point you are trying to. So the goose comment is mute.

And maybe you should start a thread on it.

#62 ikester7579

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Posted 20 March 2010 - 10:17 PM

Concerning Isaiah 14:12 and the disregard for how 'yalal' is translated everywhere else.

"To take only the verses that support what the individual wants to believe. And ignore the rest as if they do not even exist."...would be wrong. (just completing your quote).

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And because the vocabulary in biblical times was not as vast as what we have today. One word can mean several things. Such as the word heaven. Did you know there are 3 heavens?

Bible search the words "third heaven" and see for yourself. What this means is that whenever the Bible speaks about heaven, it does not always mean the heaven where God is.

So your claim to only one word translations of certain words may not apply. Which also puts your problem with the Vulgate in question.

Also the word earth in the Bible has 2 meanings. etc...

#63 Scanman

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Posted 20 March 2010 - 10:43 PM

I was looking for the counterfeit miracles.


You don't know that there weren't any counterfeit miracles performed back then by a 'man of lawlessness'. There were plenty of magicians and sorcerers practicing their spiritual magic back then...Simon was one of them.

You still haven't explained why Paul and John would try to comfort people with the idea of an imminent return, if actually it wasn't going to happen for several thousand years, or longer.


But because you water down the most direct of scriptures, this lays a foundation for total denial of the book of Revelation


For me, the verdict is still out on the book of Revelation. As I said earlier, it was considered antilegomena (disputed writings) by the early church fathers and barely made it into the canon...most likely because it did not make any radical changes to accepted foundational doctrine....and also to appease those who held it sacred. It's all about compromise and diplomacy.

...but what is revealed to those who are Biblicists, who trust that the writings are inspired fo the Holy Spirit--to them the interpretation is sure--mainly because the ministry of the Spirit to remember comparative scripture comes like a picture.  All the while those who trust in the teaching of men who wrestle the truth--from them it remains hidden.


Now you are starting to sound like a Gnostic....secret knowledge.

My interpretation is divine, yours is of the flesh, etc...etc..etc...

Granted...I understand that the Holy Spirit gives understanding...but I am sure that David Koresh thought the same way also. And boy did he have a warped view of Revelation.

The Pharisees and Sadducees also thought that their interpretation of Messianic prophecy was correct...and Jesus slipped right by them.

At least, I think we agree on the sacrifice, resurrection and Lordship of Jesus Christ.

This is a good foundation, every man builds on it using the materials that are available to him...

Peace

#64 ikester7579

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Posted 21 March 2010 - 12:12 AM

You don't know that there weren't any counterfeit miracles performed back then by a 'man of lawlessness'.  There were plenty of magicians and sorcerers practicing their spiritual magic back then...Simon was one of them.


And what would you be implying here?

You still haven't explained why Paul and John would try to comfort people with the idea of an imminent return, if actually it wasn't going to happen for several thousand years, or longer.


The reason you even question this is because you have a problem with Christ's return. Now considering that Christ even admitted that he did not know the time he was to return because the Father knew. Means to Paul and John it could be in their time.

For me, the verdict is still out on the book of Revelation.  As I said earlier, it was considered antilegomena (disputed writings) by the early church fathers and barely made it into the canon...most likely because it did not make any radical changes to accepted foundational doctrine....and also to appease those who held it sacred. It's all about compromise and diplomacy.


It's because of your theistic-evolution belief, you have a problem with God's Alpha (creation), and God's omega (revelation). And because of that you doubt everything in-between, and look for things that help support your doubt. You know you are supposed to have faith, so you justify your doubt with anything that will help you do it.

Now how far has evolution taken you away from God? Let's test this. Evolution makes a person a professional Bible scoffer. Let's see what the Bible calls a Bible scoffer.

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

1) Being in love with themselves and what they believe. Basically, they know it all.
2) Question the return of Christ by always using that everyone promises it, but it has not happened yet. Like what you did in that post.
3) Deny that by the word of God the heavens were of old. Not only do you deny this part, but will also argue the translation of it. More or less arguing semantics to justify your disbelief.
4) Deny the canopy. Every evolutionist denies the canopy.
5) Deny the world wide flood, Why deny this? Because the flood comes directly against how evolution claims the geological column formed.
6) Denying that all life perished on the earth except those on the ark. How many debates have you had denying this?
7) Denying the judgment of ungodly men. Remember that mention of universalism?

Your theistic evolution belief has made you 100% a Bible scoffer according to what the Bible says a Bible scoffer is. Being a Bible scoffer totally denies the theistic part of your supposed belief system. Now are Bible scoffers going to enter Heaven?

Now you are starting to sound like a Gnostic....secret knowledge.

My interpretation is divine, yours is of the flesh, etc...etc..etc...

Granted...I understand that the Holy Spirit gives understanding...but I am sure that David Koresh thought the same way also. And boy did he have a warped view of Revelation.


Well, since you fit what the Bible says makes you a scoffer, then who's knowledge is of the flesh? Bible scoffing is not from the Holy Spirit.

#65 Scanman

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Posted 21 March 2010 - 05:34 AM

And what would you be implying here?


I am talking about Simon the Sorcerer from the book of Acts.

AFJ made reference to the man of lawlessness and the idea that this was not fulfilled in 70AD because he knows of no counterfeit miracles.

The reason you even question this is because you have a problem with Christ's return.


I have no problem with Christ's return...he could return tomorrow, in a hundred years or in a thousand years from now.

One thing we do know...the end of the world happens for everyone...someday. This is why we need to be prepared.

Now considering that Christ even admitted that he did not know the time he was to return because the Father knew.


Regarding his specific prophecy in Matthew 24...he did know that his return in judgment on the nation of Israel and the destruction of the temple, would happen within one generation of those alive around him.

And it did...almost forty years later.

Means to Paul and John it could be in their time.


It was in their time...so their words of comfort were valid.

It's because of your theistic-evolution belief, you have a problem with God's Alpha (creation), and God's omega (revelation). And because of that you doubt everything in-between, and look for things that help support your doubt. You know you are supposed to have faith, so you justify your doubt with anything that will help you do it.


You assume too much.

I said the verdict for me was still out.

Revelation and the style of it's writing is not consistent with that of the writings of the gospels and of Pauls letters...it has more in common with the pseudographical gnostic writings that were so popular at that time. SO much of Revelation appears to be borrowed from the book of Daniel.

As a Preterist, I am supposed to accept Revelation, but only in light of much of it's fulfillment in 70AD. And it may very well be valid scripture.

Peace

#66 Scanman

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Posted 21 March 2010 - 05:57 AM

Now how far has evolution taken you away from God?


Not far at all...in fact, I would say that it has brought me closer.

1) Being in love with themselves and what they believe. Basically, they know it all.


In love with myself?...you do not know me Ikester.

Knowing it all?...I study to show myself approved.

2) Question the return of Christ by always using that everyone promises it, but it has not happened yet. Like what you did in that post.


I don't question the return of Christ...I believe that he returned in judgement on the nation of Israel in 70AD and that he will eventually return at the end of the world.

3) Deny that by the word of God the heavens were of old. Not only do you deny this part, but will also argue the translation of it. More or less arguing semantics to justify your disbelief.


As I have said before, 'were of old' is a vernacular that means 'a long time ago', not how old something is.

4) Deny the canopy. Every evolutionist denies the canopy.


If you are talking about the 'crystalline' canopy...then yes. There is absolutely no proof of this and it is not physically possible.

If you are talking about an atmospheric vapor canopy...that would be a different story.

5) Deny the world wide flood, Why deny this? Because the flood comes directly against how evolution claims the geological column formed.


Evolution has no bearing and makes no claims on this question...this is a geological issue.

There is absolutely zero evidence for a worldwide flood in the geological record.

However, there are a number of evidences for catastrophic 'local' floods, that would have wiped out the known world for those affected.

'eretz' = land.

6) Denying that all life perished on the earth except those on the ark. How many debates have you had denying this?


All known life for the people affected, did perish.

7) Denying the judgment of ungodly men. Remember that mention of universalism?


All mankind will stand judgement...God's mercy is in his hands.

Your theistic evolution belief has made you 100% a Bible scoffer according to what the Bible says a Bible scoffer is. Being a Bible scoffer totally denies the theistic part of your supposed belief system. Now are Bible scoffers going to enter Heaven?
Well, since you fit what the Bible says makes you a scoffer, then who's knowledge is of the flesh? Bible scoffing is not from the Holy Spirit.


It is a matter, not of scoffing, but of rightly dividing the word of truth.

Peace

#67 ikester7579

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Posted 22 March 2010 - 12:05 AM

Not far at all...in fact, I would say that it has brought me closer.
In love with myself?...you do not know me Ikester.

Knowing it all?...I study to show myself approved.
I don't question the return of Christ...I believe that he returned in judgement on the nation of Israel in 70AD and that he will eventually return at the end of the world.
As I have said before, 'were of old' is a vernacular that means 'a long time ago', not how old something is.
If you are talking about the 'crystalline' canopy...then yes. There is absolutely no proof of this and it is not physically possible.

If you are talking about an atmospheric vapor canopy...that would be a different story.
Evolution has no bearing and makes no claims on this question...this is a geological issue.

There is absolutely zero evidence for a worldwide flood in the geological record.

However, there are a number of evidences for catastrophic 'local' floods, that would have wiped out the known world for those affected.

'eretz' = land.
All known life for the people affected, did perish.
All mankind will stand judgement...God's mercy is in his hands.
It is a matter, not of scoffing, but of rightly dividing the word of truth.

Peace

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You have basically demonstrated you are no willing to be corrected by the word of God. You have demonstrated that you basically know it all. And you are willing to twist the word to conform to what you want to believe. Your main goal here is to prove everyone wrong that would dare to take the Bible literally which is the biggest threat to what you believe. And I have shown you proof that you are nothing but a professional Bible scoffer, even by Biblical standards. And you derail threads constantly arguing semantics and definitions of words. You "never" accept anyone else views or even ponder them. You have basically become a waste of time to debate because you are so one sided on "every" issue. You have basically become a time waster along with all the other stuff mentioned.

And you have basically derailed this thread with those same arguments, Bible scoffing, twisting the word, etc... So you are now banned

#68 Hawkins

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 08:23 PM

Job 1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 1:7
And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.


'sons of God' can be used to describe the angels. If Satan is among them, it hints that Satan could well be an ex-angel.



Isaiah 14:12 (King James Version)
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 12:4
His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth.
(it may be hinting that 1/3 of fallen angels was led by the dragon/Satan.


They seem to refer to the same betrayal.

Linkage with Michael,

Revelation 12:7
And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.

Jude 1:9
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.


The linkage may hint that Lucifer/Satan may be once ranked the same as Michael.


Moreover, I believe that I had an encounter and I studied the encounter for years to realised that I could have eye-witnessed this cherub fallen angel. It's hard to believe, I know.




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