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A Universe From Nothing


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#41 Ron

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 05:32 AM

The question stands.

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Just to let you know martimus:

I am currently working on some new music projects (including Christmas musical compositions), Two scholastic papers (educational pursuits), and I am writing and updating curriculum for projects at work.

So you’ll have to pardon me if I don’t jump at your infantile and repeated requests (my plate is a little full at this time, and I post as I can) to answer questions that have already been answered numerous times at this forum (and elsewhere on the internet) simply because you don’t like the answers given. Or that said answers don’t agree with your worldview and denied religion.

#42 Otto13

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 09:41 AM

Yes…. Assumptions

Can you show me curved space, or just bent light that you are assuming is space curving.

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Apparently Ron has difficulty understanding, or perhaps believing is a better word, anything he cannot see or physically experience.
Once again, irony strikes.

#43 Ron

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 10:27 AM

Apparently Ron has difficulty understanding, or perhaps believing is a better word, anything he cannot see or physically experience.
Once again, irony strikes.

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No, Ron doesn't have a hard time understanding, you are having a hard time reconciling your faith.

Yes, irony indeed.

#44 scott

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 11:03 AM

No the space light travels through is curved.  And the amount it curves is in precise agreement with General Relativity.

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Just thinking, but how can space be curved, when space doesn't contain any matter, or is this an exception, where some particle is actually curving the light.

#45 Guest_martemius_*

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 12:21 PM

So you’ll have to pardon me if I don’t jump at your infantile and repeated requests (my plate is a little full at this time, and I post as I can) to answer questions that have already been answered numerous times at this forum (and elsewhere on the internet) simply because you don’t like the answers given. Or that said answers don’t agree with your worldview and denied religion.

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Yes, well, you had said that you had already answered the question, hadn't you? It would seem like it should then be easy to tell me where exactly you answered it...

#46 b00tleg

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 12:43 PM

Yes, well, you had said that you had already answered the question, hadn't you?  It would seem like it should then be easy to tell me where exactly you answered it...

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Here are more assumptions which have no basis in reality. This presents no evidence of any kind, nor observations nor results achieved through experimentation that produced anything even remotely related to testable and verifiable results. This link I'm posting requires faith in the utmost, and can only be considered a possibility by faith.

http://en.wikipedia....ational_lensing

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 12:49 PM

Here are more assumptions which have no basis in reality. This presents no evidence of any kind, nor observations nor results achieved through experimentation that produced anything even remotely related to testable and verifiable results. This link I'm posting requires faith in the utmost, and can only be considered a possibility by faith.

http://en.wikipedia....ational_lensing

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Well, that wasn't the question. Besides, you're wrong; gravitational lensing is predicted by well-tested theory and has been observed.

#48 b00tleg

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 01:04 PM

Well, that wasn't the question.  Besides, you're wrong; gravitational lensing is predicted by well-tested theory and has been observed.

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Hi. I was trying to make a joke (and not a very good one). The link is a response to ron's question about "showing" him curved space. I thought gravitational lensing would demonstrate the concept quite nicely.

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 01:06 PM

Hi. I was trying to make a joke (and not a very good one). The link is a response to ron's question about "showing" him curved space. I thought gravitational lensing would demonstrate the concept quite nicely.

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Heh, sorry. :rolleyes:

#50 jason78

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 02:30 PM

Just thinking, but how can space be curved, when space doesn't contain any matter, or is this an exception, where some particle is actually curving the light.

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Gravitational fields curve space. Light travels in a straight path, but because space is curved it follows that curve.

#51 Ron

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 03:10 PM

Gravitational fields curve space.  Light travels in a straight path, but because space is curved it follows that curve.

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Why do you assume space has curved, simply because is appears that light has curved? And mind you, I’m not saying space didn’t curve… I’m simply implying that this is an assumption based upon a hypothesis.

#52 Ron

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 03:17 PM

Yes, well, you had said that you had already answered the question, hadn't you?  It would seem like it should then be easy to tell me where exactly you answered it...

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Reading skills are fundamental to learning martemius, you may wish to take a gander at post 16. But I suppose one can learn, on a limited basis, if they don’t take the time to read for themselves. I remember teaching my kids to read as they were growing up. We used flash cards to teach letters, vowels, consonants (etcetera), in the beginning. And, I was actually quite fond of reading bedtime stories. But there came a time that I had to allow them to do their own reading. Now, they are both voracious readers.

Ah yes, those were the days.

#53 A.Sphere

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 03:18 PM

And you've seen this "curved space" or you've seen light bent, and assume its telling you that the space is curved? Keeping in mind that there are many assumptions built  into "General Relativity".   :rolleyes:

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Gravitational lensing is different than any sort of optical lense. The amount that the space is curved around a massive object is greater closer to the object. So naturally the gravitational lensing effect is maximal closer to the object. When Einstein's field equations for general relativity are used it precisely predicts this effect and the values that it takes at each point in space time.

Now, I would like you to answer the following questions Ron:

1. How could you explain this effect with classical physics - or can you put forth a theory that does what GR does - that is, it must be able to be used to predict phenomena in our universe. GR does this over and over again - from the decaying orbits of binary pulsars, to graviational lensing, to the perhilion precession of Mercury, to the gravitational redshift of light, deflection of light by the Sun, light travel time delay, and soon we will test frame dragging and direct evidence of gravitational waves (indirect evidence is already known). Your explanation must include all of those items just as GR can be used to do. GR has been used to make these predictions and they were found - what more can you ask of a scientific theory? Thats as good as it gets in science.

2. Can you please give me one (or both) of the following:

1. A creationist cosmology paper that has been rejected by the journals.
2. A mainstream cosmology paper that preaches "Evolution Theology".


This is the question you have claimed to have answered. You obviously have not - nor have you even made an attempt. Also, if you give me the cosmology papers that were rejected from the journals I would love to see the editor's comments.

#54 A.Sphere

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 03:22 PM

Reading skills are fundamental to learning martemius, you may wish to take a gander at post 16. But I suppose one can learn, on a limited basis, if they don’t take the time to read for themselves. I remember teaching my kids to read as they were growing up. We used flash cards to teach letters, vowels, consonants (etcetera), in the beginning. And, I was actually quite fond of reading bedtime stories. But there came a time that I had to allow them to do their own reading. Now, they are both voracious readers. 

Ah yes, those were the days.

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This is getting ridiculous. Again,

Ron - have you linked a paper? If not, then the answer is no. You cannot link a paper. I will take either of the following:

1. A creationist cosmology paper that has been rejected by the journals.
2. A mainstream cosmology paper that preaches "Evolution Theology".

I would like to get both. You have not linked either of these two and yet you keep implying that you have answered these questions - but you haven't.


You haven't done either of those - you haven't even tried. It is okay to say "I need more time to dig them up". But for your own sake - don't lie and say that you have done so.

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 03:25 PM

Reading skills are fundamental to learning. But I suppose one can learn, on a limited basis, if they don’t take the time to read for themselves. I remember teaching my kids to read as they were growing up. We used flash cards to teach letters, vowels, consonants (etcetera), in the beginning. And, I was actually quite fond of reading bedtime stories. But there came a time that I had to allow them to do their own reading. Now, they are both voracious readers. 

Ah yes, those were the days.

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Okay, so link me to the post where you answered it.

#56 A.Sphere

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 03:25 PM

Just to let you know martimus:

I am currently working on some new music projects (including Christmas musical compositions), Two scholastic papers (educational pursuits), and I am writing and updating curriculum for projects at work.

So you’ll have to pardon me if I don’t jump at your infantile and repeated requests (my plate is a little full at this time, and I post as I can) to answer questions that have already been answered numerous times at this forum (and elsewhere on the internet) simply because you don’t like the answers given. Or that said answers don’t agree with your worldview and denied religion.

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Infantile? :rolleyes: Saying that you have answered something when you clearly haven't even tried and you cannot do something as simple as link where you think you've answered is infantile. Asking for the location of the post where your answer is - that is not infantile.

#57 scott

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 04:15 PM

Gravitational fields curve space.  Light travels in a straight path, but because space is curved it follows that curve.

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But how can the Gravitational fields curve the space, if the space doesn't contain any matter?

#58 A.Sphere

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 05:10 PM

But how can the Gravitational fields curve the space, if the space doesn't contain any matter?

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First of all, you must understand what is meant by curved space-time. Space-time is simply a mathematical formalism that combines space with time. In GR, space-time contains 3 spatial dimensions and 1 temporal dimension. Basically, up or down, left or right, forward and backwards along with when.

Curved space-time doesn't mean that these 4 dimensions are curved into a 5th like a rubber sheet is curved into a 3rd. The word curved is used analogously. Let’s say we had a little detector that could detect changes in the gravitational force. Also, we are outside of a binary pulsar system. Our detector would measure that the gravitational force is fluctuating from strong to weak periodically even though we are not moving and the binary star systems center of mass is not moving. This is interpreted as ripples in space-time – sort of like ripples in a pond. The periodically fluctuating variables that cause this gravitational force perturbation is what is meant by curved space-time. In the case I just described, the periodicity of the fluctuating gravitational field is called gravitational waves. However, if our mass isn’t moving it would cause nearby positional and temporal coordinates to differ from those in the presence of zero mass.

As light travels in the vicinity of space-time that is curved its positional and temporal measurements would appear different to an outside observer than if the light was moving in areas of space-time that are empty. However, to an observer inside the same “curved” space it would appear that light is moving as if it were in empty space because his positional and temporal coordinates would also be different than our observer in empty space.

Why is it like this? I have no idea. But physicists have speculated that it is due to weird properties of a force exchange particle known as the graviton. The graviton hasn’t been found, however all other known forces have exchange particles so physicists tend to believe that gravity has one as well. That part, however, is a work in progress.

#59 Ron

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 06:20 PM

Infantile? :lol: Saying that you have answered something when you clearly haven't even tried and you cannot do something as simple as link where you think you've answered is infantile.  Asking for the location of the post where your answer is - that is not infantile.

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Ah, I see that both of you are overlooking the evidences you asked for, but continue to ignore. And yes, that is an "Infantile" way for both of you to act. Just because you don't like the answer, doesn't make the answer wrong.



First of all, you must understand what is meant by curved space-time.  Space-time is simply a mathematical formalism that combines space with time. 

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And is therefore is an unobserved hypothesis. We can see light being bent by gravitation. Much like it is apparently bent by water and prisms. But, I would wonder… Can you provide a picture of space being bent?

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 06:39 PM

Yes…. Assumptions

Can you show me curved space, or just bent light that you are assuming is space curving.

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I don't have to show you space is curving. It's a major component of general relativity which has proven itself right over and over again.




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