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Does Atheism Have A Truly Convincing Argument Yet?


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#61 Javabean

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 08:00 AM

Or "evolution" did it... How is the statement any different?

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I think the difference to me is that there is no God in it allowing evil acts to happen.

Hmmm...that sounds revealing in a significant way. Has there been a thread discussing how you came to the current ideas you have about religion???? Did I miss that one? I probably did. But now that I think about it there couldn't be that much discussion other than a bunch of people I am this way for this reason...

Also another difference is that we can see the changes in a micro sense of evolution. We can see that life used to look different in ages past. And if you dig down deep enough you can see that at one time there was no complicated life back far enough.

Maybe there isn't as much difference that I can state, but I'm sure someone who is more educated in Evolution can give a fuller list of differences.

#62 Ron

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 08:26 AM

I know i am responding to this post and Adams response in opposite order, but I felt it was important to do it this way.

When talking about 2 opposite ideas or things, or whatever.  You need the one in order to have the other.

Such as light and dark.  You need a light source to 'know' what dark is, there wouldn't even be a word for dark.  It would be the state of everything.

Good/Evil, God/Satan, Left/Right, and of course Theism/Atheism.
While I agree that you need the idea of a divine being to be an Atheist, but you also need it to be a Theist.  I think Atheism is more reactionary in the list of opposites.  I think the idea of divine beings came first, and then someone somewhere said "eh I just don't buy it".  Maybe they asked the same questions any Atheist has asked?  It doesn't really matter though.

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Oh, I understand your position Javabean, and I respect it. And, I believe you and I can have a civil discussion on the subject. And that we don’t have to agree, but that we can listen. As my momma use to say “You have two ears and one mouth, use them proportionately”. Now, this in no way means that you cave in to the other persons position, but rather, you listen first, then formulate a position using reasoning of the facts.


Now, my point isn’t the same as the one you describe above (although I agree with that point as well). My basic contention is that “If you disbelieve something, it is still a belief in something”, and that belief is faith. In other words, “everyone believes in something”, even if it isn’t what the other person believes”.

And (a)theism, logically isn’t a non belief system (as some atheists attempt to claim). It is just a belief system in opposition to God. And, because there is NO evidence against God and (in my opinion) plenty of evidence for God, to posit that there is no God, is still a belief system (simply Stated).

#63 Javabean

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 12:10 PM

Oh, I understand your position Javabean, and I respect it. And, I believe you and I can have a civil discussion on the subject. And that we don’t have to agree, but that we can listen. As my momma use to say “You have two ears and one mouth, use them proportionately”. Now, this in no way means that you cave in to the other persons position, but rather, you listen first, then formulate a position using reasoning of the facts.


Thank you Ron, even though we seem to disagree a lot I very much appreciate and respect you opinions and knowledge for that matter.

Now, my point isn’t the same as the one you describe above (although I agree with that point as well). My basic contention is that “If you disbelieve something, it is still a belief in something”, and that belief is faith. In other words, “everyone believes in something”, even if it isn’t what the other person believes”.

And (a)theism, logically isn’t a non belief system (as some atheists attempt to claim). It is just a belief system in opposition to God. And, because there is NO evidence against God and (in my opinion) plenty of evidence for God, to posit that there is no God, is still a belief system (simply Stated).

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I can certainly see where you are coming from with this. From my personal experience I will say that what I have is more of what I have described my atheism as.

I am sure that there are people who say they are Atheists and they behave more like what you describe. Someone who has faith that there is no god. As opposed to a lack of faith in anything divine.

Although I would say that those who take it on faith that there is no God would be closer to Agnostic than Atheist IMHO. But I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time :o

#64 Javabean

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 12:23 PM

So once again, Java, you are confirming what we've been saying all along. Atheism as a position, a perspective, as a belief (or unbelief if it suits you), or as a foundational epistemology, has no positive claims. It is, by its very nature, only capable of arguing from the negative. You seem to understand this in essence, based on your own arguments, but for some odd reason you are hesitant to acknowledge the plain truth of it.


I do apologize if it has seemed that I was trying to not admit something. I guess my main contention is the usage of epistemology. Not that you are using it wrong, but that after reading up on it a little on wiki that it seems to be a lot of hogwash.

Its the theory of knowledge, but then it starts getting mucked up with faith and beliefs. These are not things you know, or know to be true. These are things you hope are true.

I view knowledge as information that I can possible use. I guess I have never really thought about the how's and why's I know the things that I do.

When you finally see it, I hope you start to consider what it is that you actually believe because atheism is incapable of supplying this answer. When you are ready we can fire up this thread again:

http://www.evolution...?showtopic=2241


I think I will politely decline on starting up this thread again. It seems that there is a lot of negative energy still in that topic that I do not want to be involved in. If there is anything that you would like me to respond to I will be more than happy too, but I really didn't see anything that I found to be of interest.

Consider this:

If you said that you were a materialist or a philosophical naturalist, and were willing to defend the position, we could have a thread where you defend the ideology that only matter exists which has the implication that there never was, or is, or ever will be an immaterial personal or impersonal creator. At the end of the day you know as well as we do that you would have to intellectually back peddle to the position of an agnostic which itself is an irrational position incapable of making positive claims.

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Hi Adam, I would like you to meet someone. Me! :o

I'm sorry but I don't put labels on myself unless at the time they fit. I feel that once you start putting labels on yourself that you are limiting yourself in some significant way.

I do not know enough about these philosophies to talk about, or to assume that the discussion would lead somewhere. Maybe it will be more productive to ask questions about what I believe and we can go from there?

Thanks!

#65 Adam Nagy

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Posted 03 January 2010 - 07:03 AM

I guess my main contention is the usage of epistemology.  Not that you are using it wrong, but that after reading up on it a little on wiki that it seems to be a lot of hogwash.

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Please, go on...

#66 Javabean

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Posted 03 January 2010 - 09:02 AM

Please, go on...

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Sure! Link to wiki for reference.

Okay so Epistemology ask these questions:

What is knowledge?
How is knowledge acquired?
What do people know?
How do we know what we know?

I don't have any issues here. These are good questions to ask.

But why does it go into beliefs right after this? Can you consider beliefs to be 'knowledge'? If you don't 'know' something can you call it knowledge?

I think this is a good place to start. Adam, what are your thoughts on beliefs, if they can be considered knowledge?

#67 Ron

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 10:32 AM

Sure!  Link to wiki for reference.

Okay so Epistemology ask these questions:

What is knowledge?
How is knowledge acquired?
What do people know?
How do we know what we know?

I don't have any issues here.  These are good questions to ask.

But why does it go into beliefs right after this?  Can you consider beliefs to be 'knowledge'?  If you don't 'know' something can you call it knowledge?

I think this is a good place to start.  Adam, what are your thoughts on beliefs, if they can be considered knowledge?

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Not to get sidetracked (in other words, as an aside) during my lunch break here, I was just enjoying some of my home-made venison chili whilst I was looking at your hot sauce web-site (how ironic).
http://www.torchbear...m/company-info/
I was getting a kick out of the art work when I noticed in your back story concerning the origins, the statement “and picked up 666 pounds of habanero peppers” :o …. “666”… really! :lol:

I’m sorry, I just thought that was funny, and thought I’d mention it.

BTW, which one is you in the cartoon header? Left, middle or right? Whoever did your graphics, did a bag up job

Also, none of this was intended as an incitement (I hope you realize that), I just thought it was funny, and got a kick out of your web site and the graphics.

#68 Javabean

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 12:58 PM

Not to get sidetracked (in other words, as an aside) during my lunch break here, I was just enjoying some of my home-made venison chili whilst I was looking at your hot sauce web-site (how ironic).
http://www.torchbear...m/company-info/


That is rather ironic! Not to side track the thread anymore either, if you hve an questions please pm me and I'll be able to tell you more about the company and all the tasty things that we offer!


I was getting a kick out of the art work when I noticed in your back story concerning the origins, the statement “and picked up 666 pounds of habanero peppers” :o …. “666”… really! :lol:

I’m sorry, I just thought that was funny, and thought I’d mention it.


:o for some reason that number has followed us around. We would see it on licsnse plates, on trucks and billboards, in telephone numbers, pretty much everywhere. The real funny thing about it is if we would see this number the rest of the day would go perfectly :o

BTW, which one is you in the cartoon header? Left, middle or right? Whoever did your graphics, did a bag up job


I'm the one in the middle! And I'll send you a pm on who does our work if you wish. He has done such a great job for us that I want to tell as many people as I can about him.

Also, none of this was intended as an incitement (I hope you realize that), I just thought it was funny, and got a kick out of your web site and the graphics.

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Again thank you. Its been a lot of work, and a lot of fun :D

#69 Adam Nagy

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Posted 08 January 2010 - 06:44 AM

I think this is a good place to start.  Adam, what are your thoughts on beliefs, if they can be considered knowledge?

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This is a great place to start and that's why I put my response where it belongs. :lol:

http://www.evolution...indpost&p=47803

See you in the epistemology thread. ;)

#70 b00tleg

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 02:24 AM

Now, back to reality... If the Atheist read “I Don’t Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheist”

They would pretty much quit their religion, and do an honest search for God.

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Why exactly, does a disbelief in god require any more of a convincing argument then a disbelief in santa claus or the easter bunny?

#71 Ron

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 03:31 AM

Why exactly, does a disbelief in god require any more of a convincing argument then a disbelief in santa claus or the easter bunny?

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Disbelief in something is STILL having a belief (i.e. faith) in the opposite bootleg.

The bigger questions for the atheist can be found here: http://www.evolution...?showtopic=3001
When the atheist can answer these questions, the atheist will then have the foundation to stand on. Otherwise the atheist will always be living in more faith than the faith of those they ridicule for having faith in God.

Therefore, to answer the OP question:
Does Atheism Have a Truly Convincing Argument Yet? Apparently not…

So then; why exactly, does a disbelief in atheism require any more of a convincing argument then a disbelief in all of this coming from nothing (which is actually a religion in-and-of-it self)?

#72 Adam Nagy

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 03:43 AM

So then; why exactly, does a disbelief in atheism require any more of a convincing argument then a disbelief in all of this coming from nothing (which is actually a religion in-and-of-it self)?

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Does this make us Aatheists? :(

#73 Ron

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 05:20 AM

Does this make us Aatheists? :(

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Good point Adam. :D But, I think that would be playing the game atheists play when they say “well then Christians are atheistic of other Gods (like Allah etc…). Or they argue about agnostic definitions out of context. And/or argue that a Christian can be agnostic about God or Jesus in that they can disregard the commands/words/actions of Jesus, and call themselves Christian.

#74 falcone

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 06:42 AM

Aatheist:
One who thinks there is a lack of evidence that there is a lack of evidence for gods?

#75 Ron

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 10:04 AM

Aatheist:
One who thinks there is a lack of evidence that there is a lack of evidence for gods?

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Aatheist:

One who finds there is a lack of evidence for atheisim (or a foundation thereof)?

#76 Javabean

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 06:51 AM

Aatheist:

One who finds there is a lack of evidence for atheisim (or a foundation thereof)?

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See I would have thought a better definition would be someone who does not believe in Atheists. :)

#77 Ron

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 10:00 AM

See I would have thought a better definition would be someone who does not believe in Atheists.  :P

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:) I have a really good photo that will go well with your post Javabean. I'll post it when I get home tonight ;)

BTW, my post was just a counter to falcone's one-liner. Neither was meant as a zing (or a gotcha), but mine was just to point out the fallacy of the other.

#78 Javabean

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 08:16 AM

:lol:  I have a really good photo that will go well with your post Javabean. I'll post it when I get home tonight  ;)

BTW, my post was just a counter to falcone's one-liner. Neither was meant as a zing (or a gotcha), but mine was just to point out the fallacy of the other.

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Oh I know your post wasn't meant as a one-liner. I was just tossing my 2 cents in for fun. The problem that I had with wording my post was it was basically the same as yours just using slightly different words.

So I went for the silly one-liner!

#79 Ron

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 10:06 AM

Oh I know your post wasn't meant as a one-liner.  I was just tossing my 2 cents in for fun.  The problem that I had with wording my post was it was basically the same as yours just using slightly different words.

So I went for the silly one-liner!

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I know Javabean, sometimes we have to revert to base humor just to relieve tension ;)

Though, there is more truth to your statement then some would think. :lol:

#80 Flatland

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 11:48 PM

So let me guess this straight...

believing in god is a religion, but NOT believing in god is also a religion?

right....that's like saying

playing basketball is a sport, but NOT playing basketball is also a sport

yup that makes a whole lot of sense. pretty much sums up creationist logic




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