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A Few Questions For The Atheists


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#81 scott

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Posted 08 January 2010 - 07:47 PM

There appears to have been a bad communication somewhere along the line here.

I was never denying that the vast majority of atheists accept evolution, cosmology and whatnot.  I was denying that those beliefs are a basis of atheism, or are inherently tied to atheism.

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Would you say that your an Atheist because of the Lack of scientific evidence of God, or the supernatural?

Is this why? Because you see no evidence for God, or gods? I'm just asking.

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Posted 08 January 2010 - 08:01 PM

Would you say that your an Atheist because of the Lack of scientific evidence of God, or the supernatural?

Is this why? Because you see no evidence for God, or gods?  I'm just asking.

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I should probably note that I don't think that "atheist" fully describes my religious beliefs -- I have certain elements of atheism, agnosticism, ignosticism, apatheism, and pantheism all mixed together somehow. But it's strictly for practical purposes that I consider myself an atheist -- I maintain a smidgen of philosophical doubt for the existence of god, and it's largely for that that I don't fully consider myself an atheist -- but since, as you say, I don't see any good evidence for god, it's only practical for me to deny it. But I'm perfectly fine being given the label of an agnostic if you think that better describes me -- I don't see any evidence for god (and here I mean god in the most general sense, not pertaining solely to christianity) and I don't see any evidence strictly against god (although I do see evidence against the Christian god, since if he's speaking through the bible then he's making claims that I see as demonstrably false -- such as that the earth is 6000 years old).

But, short answer -- yeah, I call myself an atheist because I don't see reason to believe in a higher power. Just like I don't believe in Russell's teapot.

#83 scott

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Posted 08 January 2010 - 08:10 PM

I should probably note that I don't think that "atheist" fully describes my religious beliefs -- I have certain elements of atheism, agnosticism, ignosticism, apatheism, and pantheism all mixed together somehow.  But it's strictly for practical purposes that I consider myself an atheist -- I maintain a smidgen of philosophical doubt for the existence of god, and it's largely for that that I don't fully consider myself an atheist -- but since, as you say, I don't see any good evidence for god, it's only practical for me to deny it.  But I'm perfectly fine being given the label of an agnostic if you think that better describes me -- I don't see any evidence for god (and here I mean god in the most general sense, not pertaining solely to christianity) and I don't see any evidence strictly against god (although I do see evidence against the Christian god, since if he's speaking through the bible then he's making claims that I see as demonstrably false -- such as that the earth is 6000 years old).

But, short answer -- yeah, I call myself an atheist because I don't see reason to believe in a higher power.  Just like I don't believe in Russell's teapot.

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Interesting, it's nice to know that you aren't as hardcore atheist as I thought you were, but you know what thought did.

Now, the only reason Creationist would assume that Atheist don't believe in God or gods, is because there is a lack of scientific evidence for God.

It's the science which we believe that connects most Atheist. The modern research and studies that supposedly show that the existence of God cannot be currently known. It's only that modern theories supposedly support the idea that God doesn't exist. Examples that since Evolution and the Big Bang don't exactly require God, that it leans more to the atheistical side of things.

That's just the way Creationist see it. If a theory doesn't require God, for it's occurance or creation... then by default wouldn't that be a tad bit atheist?

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Posted 08 January 2010 - 08:30 PM

That's just the way Creationist see it.  If a theory doesn't require God, for it's occurance or creation... then by default wouldn't that be a tad bit atheist?

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Are, say, ipods atheistic construction since god didn't make them? Is the theory that you get drunk from drinking a keg of beer an atheistic one because it doesn't require god to interfere by making you drunk?

#85 scott

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Posted 08 January 2010 - 08:35 PM

Are, say, ipods atheistic construction since god didn't make them?  Is the theory that you get drunk from drinking a keg of beer an atheistic one because it doesn't require god to interfere by making you drunk?

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No, but as darkness pointed out... these are scientific theories we are talking about. These are the theories that supposedly show God doesn't exist, and further provides evidence. These have to do with origins, and if God didn't create or begin them, or no god did... then logically they are atheistical in nature. It's kind of why millions of atheist are atheist... because of scientific theories, and because these theories supposedly show a lack of God.

You know what I mean. You know that I don't mean what you stated or this:

(Your example goes along the lines of: My car is sitting outside, I got in my car, and drove around a little while. God did nothing for my car... therefore the Car is atheist.)

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Posted 08 January 2010 - 08:39 PM

No, but as darkness pointed out... these are scientific theories we are talking about.  These are the theories that supposedly show God doesn't exist, and further provides evidence.  These have to do with origins, and if God didn't create or begin them, or no god did... then logically they are atheistical in nature.  It's kind of why millions of atheist are atheist... because of scientific theories, and because these theories supposedly show a lack of God.

You know what I mean.  You know that I don't mean what you stated or this:

(Your example goes along the lines of:  My car is sitting outside, I got in my car, and drove around a little while.  God did nothing for my car... therefore the Car is atheist.)

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I'm not sure who you've spoken to that suggests that modern science show a lack of god, but whoever it is, they're wrong.

#87 Mr.Tuesday

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Posted 08 January 2010 - 08:40 PM

It wasn't that God didn't make an ipod. He made man which made the ipod. The ipod itself was a man made invention. Also you may have gotten drunk from the beer,but that was your freedom. You will have to pay the consequence which was mentioned earlier.

#88 scott

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Posted 08 January 2010 - 08:42 PM

I'm not sure who you've spoken to that suggests that modern science show a lack of god, but whoever it is, they're wrong.

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But your contradicting yourself, because it is you who said that their is a lack of scientific evidence for God. It's specifically why I asked you that question earlier.

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Posted 08 January 2010 - 08:45 PM

But your contradicting yourself, because it is you who said that their is a lack of scientific evidence for God.  It's specifically why I asked you that question earlier.

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I said that there's a lack of evidence for god -- I didn't say that there's an abundance of evidence for the lack of god.

#90 scott

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Posted 08 January 2010 - 08:48 PM

I said that there's a lack of evidence for god -- I didn't say that there's an abundance of evidence for the lack of god.

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I didn't specifically add abundance of evidence to my wording. The fact that there is a lack of scientific evidence for God is one of the main reasons atheist are... well Atheist.

It's the modern science that supposedly shows a lack of God. Examples like, the Big bang... no God required. Evolution/ Origins... no God required. This is what modern research is supposedly showing. It's part of the structure of a belief in that their is no God or gods. It's the lack of evidence.

#91 menes777

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Posted 08 January 2010 - 09:32 PM

I've been looking for this base as long as I've been interacting with atheists. Can you please enlighten us with the foundational truism of atheists so we can examine it? Please don't cop out with the lame 'Lack of belief' bit because we are looking for the base. You know the foundational principle that the truth of atheism hinges on so it can be tested to see if it actually makes sense of the world.

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I think I adequately explained what the foundation for atheism (my atheism) was in the response to Ron. If that's not enough for you then I don't know what else to tell you. :D I'm sorry I can't explain it as well as someone like Dawkins could. I am not very articulate nor am I usually very persuasive person. Is it cop out to just say it is a lack of belief? Well I guess I am copping out then. I just can't find it within myself to believe in your god, the Muslim god, or about any deity that operates in the realm of the supernatural. I don't entirely remove the possibility that there is a god of some kind out there. Some might say that makes me agnostic and maybe they are right.

But what is the reason I can't find it within myself to believe? When I see Christians I don't see anyone following Christ, just people stuck on themselves and their rules. More ready to judge and more ready to be executioner than ready to love their neighbor above all else. Yes I have met some mighty fine and upstanding Christians who do embody Jesus Christ, but they are so few and far between I am more inclined to think that without religion they would be just as good of people. Christians should shine, they should stand out in any place internet or real life location. Their God should show through like a lighthouse in the dark. Yet it does not and that's why I cannot believe in your god. Your god is absent when he should be omnipresent. Does this mean I am just mad at your god? Of course not, it would be similar to me getting mad at Santa for not delivering my desired gift on Xmas. Instead I see people who are the same as me. Who love, hate, fear, have dreams and desires, and everything in between. I see us humans and that's it.

You have people like Scott who seems to only wear his beliefs like a chip on his shoulder. Ready to strike at anyone who doesn't make him feel warm and happy about how he believes. I really feel sorry for you bro that you have to try and force what you believe onto everyone else. To you it seems like turning the other cheek and loving your enemies isn't in your bible. It's people like you that really reinforce me as an atheist.

Muslims I just see hate and anger. Hindus I know barely anything about but I see a lot of Muslim in them as well. Therefore it's pretty easy for me to disbelieve in their god as well.

Is that how Falcone, or Marte, or Darkness believe? Probably not or maybe exactly like that. Who knows, but it's not up to me to tell them how they should be atheists, nor is it up to anyone else. We have defined ourselves as atheists each through our separate journeys. Each of us is unique, each an individual. :P

#92 scott

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Posted 08 January 2010 - 09:38 PM

I think I adequately explained what the foundation for atheism (my atheism) was in the response to Ron.  If that's not enough for you then I don't know what else to tell you. :D  I'm sorry I can't explain it as well as someone like Dawkins could.  I am not very articulate nor am I usually very persuasive person.  Is it cop out to just say it is a lack of belief?  Well I guess I am copping out then.  I just can't find it within myself to believe in your god, the Muslim god, or about any deity that operates in the realm of the supernatural.  I don't entirely remove the possibility that there is a god of some kind out there.  Some might say that makes me agnostic and maybe they are right. 

But what is the reason I can't find it within myself to believe?  When I see Christians I don't see anyone following Christ, just people stuck on themselves and their rules.  More ready to judge and more ready to be executioner than ready to love their neighbor above all else.  Yes I have met some mighty fine and upstanding Christians who do embody Jesus Christ, but they are so few and far between I am more inclined to think that without religion they would be just as good of people.  Christians should shine, they should stand out in any place internet or real life location.  Their God should show through like a lighthouse in the dark.  Yet it does not and that's why I cannot believe in your god.  Your god is absent when he should be omnipresent.  Does this mean I am just mad at your god?  Of course not, it would be similar to me getting mad at Santa for not delivering my desired gift on Xmas.  Instead I see people who are the same as me.  Who love, hate, fear, have dreams and desires, and everything in between.  I see us humans and that's it.

You have people like Scott who seems to only wear his beliefs like a chip on his shoulder.  Ready to strike at anyone who doesn't make him feel warm and happy about how he believes.  I really feel sorry for you bro that you have to try and force what you believe onto everyone else.  To you it seems like turning the other cheek and loving your enemies isn't in your bible.  It's people like you that really reinforce me as an atheist.

Muslims I just see hate and anger.  Hindus I know barely anything about but I see a lot of Muslim in them as well.  Therefore it's pretty easy for me to disbelieve in their god as well.

Is that how Falcone, or Marte, or Darkness believe?  Probably not or maybe exactly like that.  Who knows, but it's not up to me to tell them how they should be atheists, nor is it up to anyone else.  We have defined ourselves as atheists each through our separate journeys.  Each of us is unique, each an individual. :P

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Actually that's a completely incorrect idea of me you have there. I'm not forcing my belief on anyone. I'm sorry you feel that way, but you'd be wrong in your assertions of me.

It's people like you, who claim me as shoving, no it's just that you can't accept facts when there shown to you. Instead you tell me that I'm shoving, when you personally know good and well that you have the free will to just not accept it, or move along, or provide counter evidence.

Why don't you address this post to me, instead of talking behind my back... such as this post.

#93 Ron

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Posted 09 January 2010 - 04:54 AM

Atheists can believe whatever they want, but atheism, in and of itself, only professes a disbelief in the supernatural 

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That is true, atheists can believe in what ever they want. That was never in dispute according to the OP. But, as far as the super natural question being profession is an incorrect statement.

it doesn't say anything for origins or science or anything like that.

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Then, as far as your above statement (as read), atheism has no foundation and proceeds on "faith" alone?

#94 scott

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Posted 09 January 2010 - 09:49 AM

Darkness45,

I thank you for explaining your stance, and I'm thankful that we can agree on many things. We may have some differences, but some of our core beliefs seem to be the same. I know that at times I have pride problems, and I think that sometimes it does get the best of us. It has been a very insightful, and interesting conversation. I hope that in the future we can discuss many different things like the way we have in this thread.

I just want to let you know that this has most definetly not been a waste of my time, and I hope you feel the same.

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Posted 09 January 2010 - 11:14 AM

Then, as far as your above statement (as read), atheism has no foundation and proceeds on "faith" alone?

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I suppose you could say that it exists on the faith that since no evidence for god exists, it follows that god probably doesn't exist. If you want to call that a faith claim is up to you, but it sounds logical to me.

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Posted 09 January 2010 - 09:41 PM

Scott,

I too feel that this was a good conversation, and I hope that we have many conversations like this one as well. This has definitely not been a waste of my time either.

Shalom

#97 Ron

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 05:30 PM

I have removed a number of posts that either have absolutely nothing to do with the OP, or have ranged far from the OP. There are other that will be removed as well (as I get the time) If someone has a problem with the removals, then start a new thread concerning the issues you comments on.

As I said when I started this thread, I will keep it on topic.

#98 Ron

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 05:34 PM

I suppose you could say that it exists on the faith that since no evidence for god exists, it follows that god probably doesn't exist.  If you want to call that a faith claim is up to you, but it sounds logical to me.

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So far, you haven't provided any evidence for foundation of atheistic life. And your above positing of a negative believe in God is an equivocation and a side-tracking of the OP.

You really should go with the "I don't know" option if you aren't going to stay on topic.

#99 Ron

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 05:37 PM

Are, say, ipods atheistic construction since god didn't make them?  Is the theory that you get drunk from drinking a keg of beer an atheistic one because it doesn't require god to interfere by making you drunk?

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No, ipods are not an atheistic construction, but they are designed. And, of course this has nothing to do with the OP.

#100 Ron

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 05:44 PM

The problem with this response is of course, the exact same applies to the theist.

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Absolutely! But it is not a problem for the theist. Only for the atheist because they deny the amount of faith they have placed in that faith, and the amount of time spent in defense of denying that faith.


As an aside; the balance of the above post had absolutely nothing to do with the OP




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