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#1 Greasy Joe

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 08:13 PM

So, I was talking to some kid and he said that nowhere in the bible does it say that people are getting tortured in Hell, only that it is :
-completely dark
-satan is burning in a lake of fire
-you are completely separated from God

According to the bible (and not Western elaboration / artistic license), what is going on in Hell?

#2 ikester7579

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 10:38 PM

There are a few false religions out there that teach those things. Even some teach hell is a mythical place. There are even translations, or I should say personal versions of the Bible that support this. If you rewrite a book 50 different ways, and due to copyright laws each version of the book has to be at least 10% different from all others in existence. What do you think has to happen? You get versions that are so way off from what is said or meant, that there is not that much truth in them.

That is why I stick to the older ones. They are not filled with personal preferences and 10% differences that sway it from the truth. The original translations from Hebrew through the Greek were mainly more interested in getting the translation correct than anything else. Something all other translation could be judged by, But instead the later translations, and the people whom believe them, started attacking the older ones as if to say the truth was never out there until their translation showed up. Basically implying that everyone believed a lie before their version of the truth showed up.

So the reason I say that, is because I quote from the KJV.

mt 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

mt 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

mt 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

mt 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Outer darkness is another term for Hell because Hell have no light. So if there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, there is torture.

The thing that these false religions do is to try and get you not to fear Hell by saying it does not exist, or if you go you won't regret it because you get to party and sin all day. Or you will be in a state of limbo where you want even know where you are so you won't feel a thing.

When you don't fear Hell, then why should you fear sin? If you don't fear sin then why should you fear God or His judgment? And if you fear none of these things, why should you get saved and changed from what you currently are?

That is the objective of a doctrine like that. To get you to believe you don't need God so you won't feel the need to get saved. Sounds great don't it? That's the appeal of this. Lure you in with the idea that sin is okay, and God will approve. These people do not care about your eternal destination, they just want you to believe as they do and have you convince others as well.

Problem is, because it can be proven a lie. The sin they commit and convince others of. Puts them in a situation where there is no excuse. And the others who were deceived as well, their blood ends up on the hands of the one who did this. That blood makes them unclean before God. So the very thing they say does not exist they will now suffer for all eternity.

#3 MamaElephant

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 06:54 AM

Where did this "fiery ring" idea come from?

#4 falcone

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 07:41 AM

Where did this "fiery ring" idea come from?

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Johnny Cash! :D

#5 MamaElephant

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 09:09 AM

Johnny Cash! :D

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Never heard of it. Do you have a link?

#6 ikester7579

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 11:55 AM

Never heard of it. Do you have a link?

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_tmzxM_XvQA?fs=1&hl=en_US

#7 ikester7579

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 12:06 PM

Here's another one in case you are not familiar with Cash music.

jQcNiD0Z3MU?fs=1&hl=en_US

#8 MamaElephant

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 12:41 PM

I have heard that song before. Wow, I would have never in a million years thought that it was about hell.

#9 Greasy Joe

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 06:16 PM

So are those all translations of the same passage, and is that the only passage that references torture in hell?

#10 ikester7579

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 02:42 AM

So are those all translations of the same passage, and is that the only passage that references torture in hell?

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Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

#11 MamaElephant

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 12:01 PM

Would you say that the scriptures you quoted in your first reply indicate that hell is the same as Tartarus?

Based on these scriptures, how are we to know whether hell is a fiery place or a dark place?

#12 MamaElephant

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 12:16 PM

When you don't fear Hell, then why should you fear sin? If you don't fear sin then why should you fear God or His judgment? And if you fear none of these things, why should you get saved and changed from what you currently are?

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Since I don't fear hell, I feel that I can answer that question. In doing so, I am answering a question, not about the Bible, or about doctrine, but about my own personal motivation, which is apparently being questioned.

I fear sin because I fear displeasing God. I love him and therefore want to please him. Proverbs 27:11, Matthew 22:37. I want to maintain a loving relationship with my God. Jude 21. Just as I feared displeasing my parents when I was a child even when I received no punishment, but hurt their feelings or caused them sadness, I wish to make God and his son happy. They have done so much for me, why would I want to hurt them? What does my heavenly Father wish my motivation to be? 1 John 5:3, Matthew 22:37

I also want to answer Satan's challenge in the book of Job*. I also know that the angels are watching as are the Saints that are in heaven with Jesus, some of whom I have known personally.

In addition, I have been given a choice between life in paradise or not. I choose life in paradise. John 3:16; Deuteronomy 30:15 At Hebrews 12:2 we can see that Jesus was also motivated by the promise of a reward.

*9 At that Satan answered Jehovah and said: “Is it for nothing that Job has feared God? 10 Have not you yourself put up a hedge about him and about his house and about everything that he has all around? The work of his hands you have blessed, and his livestock itself has spread abroad in the earth. 11 But, for a change, thrust out your hand, please, and touch everything he has [and see] whether he will not curse you to your very face.”

“Have you set your heart upon my servant Job, that there is no one like him in the earth, a man blameless and upright, fearing God and turning aside from bad? Even yet he is holding fast his integrity, although you incite me against him to swallow him up without cause.” 4 But Satan answered Jehovah and said: “Skin in behalf of skin, and everything that a man has he will give in behalf of his soul. 5 For a change, thrust out your hand, please, and touch as far as his bone and his flesh [and see] whether he will not curse you to your very face.”

#13 ikester7579

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 04:53 PM

Would you say that the scriptures you quoted in your first reply indicate that hell is the same as Tartarus?

Based on these scriptures, how are we to know whether hell is a fiery place or a dark place?

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Does God lie?
Does His word lie?

With due respect. You may read from a version of the Bible that fits the views you want them to. But, if it's truth them all before it believed in lies, correct? So the logic that newer versions have truth while the older ones don't means God's word lied until your version came into being. Which also means all doctrine before yours was a lie also. Why?

You base the truth of God on a version of the Bible written when?
You base your belief on a dictrine written when?

So what was everything before that?

#14 MamaElephant

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 10:43 PM

Hmmm... I really don't know how to answer questions that are posed to me without getting into trouble with the moderators. I hope that I can show that I am respectful in my reply. Really, I truly am. I have a very high opinion of many of the Christians on this forum, yourself included. On the assumption that my signature is not appreciated I shall edit it for the time being. I had just discovered that scripture and was quite excited at the newness of the thought, while at the same time not entirely sure how to understand it.

You must know that it is difficult for me to follow the forum rules and not give a Bible answer to the OP. I am actually interested in others beliefs so I follow the rules and ask a question about your views. I really don't understand, however, this response to my question, as it did not answer it. Why do I not receive an answer?

Does God lie?
Does His word lie?

With due respect. You may read from a version of the Bible that fits the views you want them to. But, if it's truth them all before it believed in lies, correct? So the logic that newer versions have truth while the older ones don't means God's word lied until your version came into being. Which also means all doctrine before yours was a lie also. Why?

You base the truth of God on a version of the Bible written when?
You base your belief on a dictrine written when?

So what was everything before that?

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To answer your questions briefly: The Almighty God directly inspired scriptures written by men in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. I hold no version of the Bible in higher esteem than the original meaning of this text. The Bible writers foretold a Great Apostasy from the true teachings and the scriptures show that it began while the Bible was still being written. The Bible was not available in the language of most people until 1495, thus making Bible study virtually impossible. How was the flock to be on guard against false teachers when they couldn't read the scriptures for themselves?

Contrary to what you are stating, Jehovah's Witnesses do not teach that the older versions of the Bible did not contain truth. I believe that it can be found in any translation if sincere students with holy spirit look hard enough. Bible students refuted the hellfire doctrine using the King James Version of the Bible in the 1800s, and possibly before that. You and others in this forum have actually inspired me to go back and study more literature published before the publication of the NWT of the Holy Scriptures, and before C.T. Russel started publishing his views. It has been both refreshing and faith strengthening.

I may have started out with a misunderstanding, but please know that I highly esteem the people who make this forum possible.

#15 AFJ

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 06:52 PM

So are those all translations of the same passage, and is that the only passage that references torture in hell?

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Ikester gave you the parable of the the rich man and Lazurus.

Mar 9:42    And whosoever shall offend one of [these] little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
43     And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44     Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45     And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46     Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47     And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48     Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.


Remember what Daniel said to the king when "mene, mene" was written twice on the wall with a bodiless hand. Goe had "written it twice because the thing [judgment] was sure.

In Mark 9:43-48 Jesus said "fire" 6 times. Hell fire once. And he stated the fact of unquenchable fire 5 times.

We know that the word for "hell" in English is "Gehenna" in the Greek. This is what the Bible students used to try to refute hell. Gehenna was a large place where trash was burnt outside Jerusalem. But if you have studied the Bible at all, you know there are types and shadows--and they are obvious by their characteristics. This is one of those types, because of the fact that no earthly fire is unquenchable fire.

Again...

Matthew 25:1-4“Then he [Jesus on the judgment throne] will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

   44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

   45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

   46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”


So, the fire is also eternal and unquenchable. This how you interpret scripture, by comparing it to other scriptures. It guards against private interpretation as some have done with hell.

Revelation 14:9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.


Burning sulfur, torment, forever and ever, no rest day or night. No annihilation, everlasting punishment. Don't be wrong about God and Christ.

Revelation 20:10-15
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are [they weren't burned up], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
before.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


I know there are more, but I would have to research. I guess if you want to ignore or try to de-literalize everything, you can. But I won't.

#16 MamaElephant

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 06:55 PM

Those in Revelation certainly seem to fit.

#17 MamaElephant

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 08:29 PM

Alright I am looking deeply into this subject again...

This how you interpret scripture, by comparing it to other scriptures.

I completely agree.

Death and hell are cast into the lake of fire though and they cannot literally burn? But then there is a scripture that states maggots burn forever as well? (where the worm dieth not)

The cities of Sodom and Gomorrah are also spoken of as burning forever in Jude 7?
“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! because if the powerful works had taken place in Tyre and Sidon that took place in you, they would long ago have repented . . . It will be more endurable for Tyre and Sidon on Judgment Day than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you perhaps be exalted to heaven? Down to Hades you will come; because if the powerful works that took place in you had taken place in Sodom, it would have remained until this very day. . . . It will be more endurable for the land of Sodom on Judgment Day than for you.” (Matthew 11:20-24) But then it says here that those in Hades are to be resurrected... Revelation 20:13. (This scripture in Matthew seems to be an exaggeration to make a point, but is still confusing due to the reference of Hades.)

I found this in an article, but haven't found any more on it yet...

As to the “everlasting punishment” of Matthew 25:46, the original Greek word does not carry the idea of torment but of a cutting off from life.

Does anyone have more information available on this? I looked it up in the Greek Interlinear and it says "chastening". It is interesting though, that the everlasting "chastening" is shown in contrast to the reward for the just which is everlasting "life".




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