Fred, I am surprised at such a comment from you.Ã‚Â We may disagree on this subject, but all I have offered is my appologia on it.Ã‚Â I haven't criticized you for not believing as I do.Ã‚Â You offerred an interprtation of scripture as your appologia.Ã‚Â I took note of that.Ã‚Â I on the other hand I am offering scripture and what the scripture actually says either in the Hebrew/Greek or the KJV.Ã‚Â If that is blind dogmatism then I'm all for it brother.
1) How do you save an animal?
2) It was a snake that "lied" to Eve, so if they have souls. How do they repent?
3) The snake sinned before Adam and Eve, why was not the fall of man laid upon the sin of a snake?
4) Do you think the the snake was a metaphor? How do you curse a metaphor to crawl on it's belly?
5) What makes animals souls different to the point that they are not responsible for their sins but yet we are? Are they above us in the creation?
6) Since the snake sinned before man, why did not a snake die for our sins?
7) Why was not a snake an old testament sin atonement since the snake made man sin?
Well your interpretation is just that.Ã‚Â It is your interpretation.Ã‚Â What I do know for a fact is that the topic of discussion in Job has nothing to do with the doctrine of whether animals have or are souls or whether they will be redeemed in the end.Ã‚Â The analogy I gave clearly upset you, because paleontologists interpret bones/fossils in dirt.Ã‚Â We creos generally reject those interpretations.Ã‚Â I rejected yours.Ã‚Â That's all.Ã‚Â It's not a strawman.Ã‚Â But it is a parallel analogy.
If you cannot answer the questions above, the fact you claim is not viable.
For some reason only you in your interpretation are focussed on the doubling.Ã‚Â And from that, you conclude various implications and doctrines about animal souls and their redemption.Ã‚Â I would prefer a conservative approach to looking at what Job 42:12-13 actually says.Ã‚Â That's why I said "That's quite an interpretation"
Does the Bible say anywhere that there are certain souls that don't need to be saved?
Animals are a part of my possessions.Ã‚Â Wealth.Ã‚Â I consider my children as my heritage and reward from God like the Psalmist says.Ã‚Â My children are in my image.Ã‚Â We are in His image.Ã‚Â My dog is not in my image.Ã‚Â Neither would be my sheep, my camels, or my oxen.Ã‚Â Neither are they in His image.Ã‚Â But they are definitly living nephesh.Ã‚Â Just like you and I are.
And the rich man poor man died, and the rich man saw his dogs that ate the crumbs from his table in Heaven, while he burned in Hell. If Christ would have considered animals on earth as part of the Heaven experience, His parables would have said this. Can you provide a parable for this? No? Why do you think that is?
You certainly appear to me to be domatic.Ã‚Â I have only provided direct scripture which clearly addresses whether animals have or are souls, and whether they possibly will be glorified in the end.Ã‚Â There is direct scripture here, unlike the totally inderect interpretation that you offer in Job.Ã‚Â You have not once addressed the use of the same Hebrew words for Adam and all animals.Ã‚Â I ask that you kindly address this.Ã‚Â Now, my dogma is derived from the direct words of scripture.Ã‚Â Now I may be wrong on this, but someone needs to address these words.Ã‚Â Living nephesh for animals and man.Ã‚Â That's all you need to address.
What is it when you kill a living soul? So everyone in the Old Testament committed murder when they Sacrificed animals for sin atonement. Because when the soul separates from the flesh, it means death. When it's done by the hand of another, it can be considered murder.
Ikester wrote "The Bible does not say that Christ died on the cross to save the souls of animals, does it?"
Then I responded:
Well, I beleive it does. Not in the sense that they were sinning against God, but they were a part of God's curses on His creation.....then I quoted Romans 8.
Did not an animal (snake) sin before man when it lied to Eve? Your logic does not work. All I see is that you "want" it to be true, so you will find and adhere to what ever you can to support it.
I responded that animals are redeemed as all of God's creation is redeemed in the end.Ã‚Â Except of course those who are made in His image and reject Him as their Father.
And no parables of animals from earth in Heaven or Hell.
OK.Ã‚Â Did I call that far-fetched?Ã‚Â Did I say you had blinders on?Ã‚Â I said it was "quite an interpretation" which it is.
Why is it far-fetched?Ã‚Â (are you being dogmatic?) I am just going on what the words say.Ã‚Â Not what I think they say.Ã‚Â You haven't yet addressed what Romans 8 says.Ã‚Â Instead you hand waive it away claiming that "The Bible simply does not speak to animal "salvation".Ã‚Â Well I have provided those verses for you which they do say.....
Rom 8:21Ã‚Â Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22Ã‚Â For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23Ã‚Â And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
You leave out the verses that follow, which means you interpretation is taken out of context to what you want it to be, not what it actually says:
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
If you are implying that the whole creation is being spoke of, and I know you are. Then the rest applies also.
1) How does an animal have hope so they can be saved?
2) How does an animal hope for something it cannot see?
3) How does an animal have infirmities?
Now I ask that you address these far-fetched words of God.
And then you have the audacity to claim that Rom 8 makes sense in light of the milenium which isn't even mentioned in Isaiah?Ã‚Â And you claim I make a non-sequitor regarding your strawmen about animal hell?
Fred, we can disagree, but I won't call you far fetched or blinded.Ã‚Â But so far, I will say that you and Ikester have both been unwilling to address the living nephesh of animals and the actual words of Roman 8.Ã‚Â So the ball is in your court.
When you can provide parables or verses that say animals from earth end up in Heaven, then you win the debate. Otherwise it is nothing but something you want so bad, that you are willing to fill in the blanks to make it so. And you are willing to separate yourself from members in this ministry to make it so by taking up to much pride. God's truth humbles, it does not separate and neither does it feed pride.
Example: You say nephesh means living soul --- And because of this you make an argument for animals from earth going to Heaven---Yet you cannot provide one verse or parable that confirms animals from earth end up in Heaven.
You are falling short of providing the evidence needed to prove your point. God's word is exact, it is not a fill in the blank book.
One thing I know about researching in God's word. What ever is meant is always backed up somewhere else. Saying that supposed animals souls equals animals going to Heaven even though the Bible does not make that clear. Would be like trying to make the verses below sound like something else.
Genesis 9:21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.
24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
Now atheists and some Christians like to use those verses to say Ham had s@x with Noah. Now, can you prove that Ham had s@x with Noah if you believe that? Or like animals going to Heaven, can you only go part way in proving it?