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Once Saved Always Saved, Is It Biblical?


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#41 chipwag64

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Posted 15 April 2011 - 06:07 PM

Ikester,

What you did not show me in the Bible was where, in the verses you bring up, does the author of the Scripture mention clearly that people were saved? I don't see it and I have tried.
You also have not attempted, as far as I can see, to define your idea of what "salvation" is? I am trying to save us both time by getting to what I truly feel is the heart of the matter, by asking you how you go about concluding peoples salvific status if the text does not state it?
I had a "debate" with someone else on certain doctrines that the other person continually bashes to this day, and I could see from the start that they also used both Biblical and man made terms in a way that I myself don't agree to. Terms such as "election", "predestination" and their biggie "Calvinist". This other person kept using their definition of these terms and telling me that I believed in them, no matter how many times I asked to drop the labels and let us study a text of Scripture, this person refused, all they wanted to do was tell me what I believe, they were debating their own mind!!. I was trying to break down a text to show why I believe what I believe, rather than use terms that meant two different things to both of us. Because of that, I see the same thing in this debate and I am trying once again, to just break down the Scripture and THEN you can call me anything you want. I am IN NO WAY afraid to say I was wrong if it can be shown me where I am erring.
I have been a believer for 8.5 years and right from the start I had and still have a GREAT hunger for God's Word. I grew up in a Lutheran church and for 38 years just sat there every week doing religion. I had no idea what the Bible was,never read it, never recall being encouraged to read it. One day about 9 years ago I had enough of my downward spiraling life and was desperate for help. My marriage was a mess, my kids were undisciplined, my house was in foreclosure, I was in and out of jobs, I lost a 14 month child to a homocide etc.. I was looking for this God I heard so much about in church and wanted a quick fix to all my problems, all I could think of was to get on my knees and cry out for His help. From that day on, my life has changed,I all of a sudden had a desire to read a Bible I had on a shelf, but I couldn't understand a lot of what I was reading, just like the Ethiopian eunuch in the chariot, I needed a Philip to interpret, but I didn't know who to trust to teach me. I thought, who else would I go to than God Himself in prayer, that He would lead me to a teacher. One night, on my way to my 2nd shift job, I heard a radio ministry program, the preacher caught my ears, I liked his style, and I liked that he would frequently say "don't believe me, you check it out for yourself in the word". So I would listen to him every night and have a Bible handy to check if what he was teaching was true.
I was so afraid of false teaching that ashamedly I stopped going to any church for at least a year until I had a pretty good idea about the basics, that I could begin to discern error to the best of my ability. All the while, I had a relative helping me,sending messages from their church to listen to, giving me materials to read etc. When I listened to ten cassette tapes from their church I heard the word "grace" one time. What I heard was a loud screaming,harsh,cold, legalistic message. Was it Biblical, yes, as far as what was taught lined up with the Bible,but there were comments made about what to wear, what instruments should be in a church, what Bible was acceptable etc. As the preacher was making these comments, Scripture that contradicted what he was saying popped into my head, such as Colossians 2:20-23. The arguments he made sounded good to the flesh, but I couldn't find these in the Bible,so,In an effort to steer clear from looking for a legalistic church, I went out to find a Bible believing church that preached "grace".
But I didn't know anything about church denominations, and really had no desire to, but in my area there are very few non-denominational churches, so I found a non-denominational Bible believing church and went for almost a year, but something seemed to be missing. I filled out a card to become a member but no one got back to me so I left.
Then I found the church I'm in now,I liked their reverence, it is a small church, generous people etc. but then I found out the first day there that they believe in the "Doctrines of Grace" and I heard from someone that they were wrong, but a church member gave me a book to read that explained the Doctrines and after seeing the Scriptures they used it seemed Biblical but I still wasn't hooked. I now wanted to learn Greek, I wanted to get into the original language of the NT to see if I was reading the Bible correctly and what translations were correct, after all I had a KJV only relative demanding allegiance..LOL.
So that's kind of my story; please don't take this the wrong way as arrogant or proud or exalting myself, but I have now committed the Books of Romans, Hebrews, 1 John, 1 Peter, James and I am now 4 chapters into Ephesians to memory. So, in summary, I absolutely love the word and I am always seeking correction if I am wrong.
About three years ago I was asked to teach our Mens class at church.I really didn't want to, it was too great a responsibility to be teaching others; I don't want to lead ANYONE astray with wrong teaching; but I agreed due to a lack of teachers ( James 3:1). To this day, I put in at least 6 hours in preparation to study about a dozen verses. The reason I memorize is so I can continually think about the Bible and study it in my head. The reason for memorizing whole books is to get the context of verses, to get the flow and try to follow the writer and understand why he writes what he does.
So, do I believe my theology is perfect? NO WAY, do I believe the "Doctrines of Grace"? that depends what that means. Have I ever studied Calvin? NO. I don't study men, but I do consult commentaries from different men to see how they may understand difficult passages.
What I now believe is only to me "the best understanding", and I welcome correction because my self esteem is not important, that's why I usually just let attacks against me go without comment; it's more important to get the best understanding of the Bible.
I can appreciate your studying OSAS vs. non-OSAS and I truly understand your distaste at hearing someone preach that OSAS is a ticket to sin, but that doesn't mean that other people don't have a different understanding of OSAS. I really hate labels and prefer not to use them, because people have different understandings of what they mean. To be honest with you Ikester, I don't argue much about election, predestination, foreknowledge, regeneration or other terms that refer to God's works unless I see people using those terms in a way that I don't agree with; at which point I try to engage them to find out why they believe what they believe about those terms to see if maybe I had misunderstood them myself.
One thing that I have to admit is that I truly was in such a rush at the beginning of this thread to comment, that I failed to read every word where you wrote that YOU did those videos. So I apologized because I didn't intend to publically criticize YOU and that's why I kept going in this "debate"; because if I thought you were stupid, like you implied, I would have left long ago.
The only reason I keep replying is to show that I don't believe what you think I believe, my attitude is not what you think it is, and my allegiance is not to a denomination, as you keep implying it is.
I hope this helps
Chip

#42 ikester7579

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 05:47 AM

Sorry about your death in the family.

I have one question: Were you taught osas before you read it, or did you read it and say: Oh, I can never lose my salvation? You see every osas believer I have met were taught the osas doctrine just as I was. So opening the Bible to those verses made me read them and make them conform to what I was taught.

God word makes it very clear that we are to work out our "own salvation".

phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

It does not say: Work out your salvation through denominational teachings. It says work out your "own salvation".

Now what do you think that means?

Also, define what you mean by my idea of salvation. This can go into many areas.

A little about me:
I was saved around 9 years of age (saved 40 years). While in church I felt the drawing power of God, did not know what it was at that age, but found myself walking forward to accept Christ. Back slid for several years, but never lost faith that God existed and God endured my sin until I came back.

Debating on a Christian forum I got involved in several debates on the osas vs no-osas. I learned a lot because both sides made me do a bunch of Biblical research. But, I was not satisfied because I could see evidence that supports both sides but I knew only one could be true. So I prayed for wisdom. Wisdom on osas and creation. From that point i was tested to see if I would compromise the word of God. Both believers and non-believers would constantly badger me to accept views that were not Biblical. At the time I did not realize I was being tested, but had already decided that if truth was going to be found, compromising was not even an option. So I held to the word.

After relentless badgering to compromise, and my stance not to. I started to get little tid bits of truth. Things in the Bible started to make sense on the subjects that I wanted to know more on. I realized my prayer was slowly being answered because I did not wavier. But the answers were also tests. Tests to see how I would use each part of information that was being fed to me. You see some people will use knowledge to exalt themselves above others. I was not looking to do this and was humbled by what I did get even if it was not much.

It took about 4 years of waiting, holding to the word, being humble etc... It's not easy when your flesh wants to do other things, and the waiting is the hardest part. God controls how we understand His word. And if we work out our own salvation the way He would have us to. We get a direct line to His truth as He deems fit to show us. Believing osas first, then looking to God to show me what the real truth was. And accepting correction has opened my eyes to so much more. Because once God realizes we will do the right thing with the truth He shows us, He will reveal more. But if we deem we already have truth, and refuse any correction, God will be silent.

And atheists wonder why God won't speak to them. God cannot get through a heart that is hard as a rock (stubborn).

#43 chipwag64

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 08:00 PM

Ikester,

I really didn't learn OSAS as a stand alone doctrine, but rather, it comes out in the preaching of the word. I enjoy preachers who preach through books of the Bible word by word, verse by verse, chapter by chapter because, as I said earlier, you get flow of thought, context, etc. Preachers who preach topically can pull any verses that SEEM to support their position, it is too easy for our flesh to be influenced in that way.
It really doesn't matter at this point how I was taught, because if it doesn't have scriptural support, and something contrary ( such as non-OSAS) DOES, then it needs to be discarded.
As far as asking what "salvation" means to you, I mean this:
By what means is someone "saved"?, what are they "saved" from?, what are the benefits of "salvation" ?etc. Let me start off by giving a few beliefs that I hold to according to scripture:
1) Salvation is by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9)
2) We are "saved" from wrath ( Romans 5:9)
3) We are "saved" through the preaching of the Gospel (1Corinth 15:1-2)
4) To be considered "saved", you have to be regenerated and indwelt by the Holy Spirit ( Titus 3:5)
5) To be "saved" you need to be called according to God's purpose ( 2 Tim 1:9)
6) To be "saved" you need to have a love of the truth ( 2 Thes 2:10)
7) To be "saved" you need to confess Jesus as Lord and believe in the resurrection ( Romans 10:9)
8) To be "saved" you need to be in Christ, we are saved by His life ( John 10:9, Romans 5:10)
9) To be "saved" you need to be kept by God's power ( 1 Peter 1:5)
Benefits of Salvation:
1) Were reconciled to God (Romans 5:10)
2) Were redeemed or ransomed ( Romans 3:24)
3) Were no longer under condemnation ( Romans 8:1)
4) Were adopted (Ephes 1:5)
5) We have a propitiation for our sins ( 1 John 2:2)
6) We have been crucified with Christ, died, buried and raised with Him (Romans 6)
7) We are delivered from the Law and dead to it ( Romans 7:4-6)
8) We are a new creation ( 2 Corinth 5:17)
9) We have an imputed righteousness ( 1 Corinth 1:30)
10) We are acceptable to God ( Eph 1:6)
11) We are justified ( Romans 5:1)
12) We have peace with God (Rom 5:1)
13) We have access to God (Rom 5:2)
14) We have forgiveness of sins ( Eph 1:7)
15) We have an inheritance ( 1 Peter 1:4)
16) We are transferred from the Kingdom of darkness to the Kingdom of His Son ( Colossians 1:13)
17) We are being built on a secure foundation ( Eph 2:20)
18) We are no longer in bondage to sin ( Heb 2:14)
19) We are a royal and holy priesthood ( 1 Peter 2:5,9)
20) We have an intercessor ( Heb 7:25)
21) We are heirs ( Romans 8:17)
22) We are ambassadors ( 2 Corinth 5:20)
23) We have eternal life ( 1 John 5:11-12)
24) We have spiritual gifts ( Romans 12:6)
25) We are a sheep, a branch of the vine, a member of His body, a stone in the building, a part of His bride etc.
I could go on and on, but this is some of what I believe is part of salvation.

Chip

#44 ikester7579

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 03:44 AM

Ikester,

I really didn't learn OSAS as a stand alone doctrine, but rather, it comes out in the preaching of the word. I enjoy preachers who preach through books of the Bible word by word, verse by verse, chapter by chapter because, as I said earlier, you get flow of thought, context, etc. Preachers who preach topically can pull any verses that SEEM to support their position, it is too easy for our flesh to be influenced in that way.
It really doesn't matter at this point how I was taught, because if it doesn't have scriptural support, and something contrary ( such as non-OSAS) DOES, then it needs to be discarded.
As far as asking what "salvation" means to you, I mean this:
By what means is someone "saved"?, what are they "saved" from?, what are the benefits of "salvation" ?etc. Let me start off by giving a few beliefs that I hold to according to scripture:
1) Salvation is by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9)
2) We are "saved" from wrath ( Romans 5:9)
3) We are "saved" through the preaching of the Gospel (1Corinth 15:1-2)
4) To be considered "saved", you have to be regenerated and indwelt by the Holy Spirit ( Titus 3:5)
5) To be "saved" you need to be called according to God's purpose ( 2 Tim 1:9)
6) To be "saved" you need to have a love of the truth ( 2 Thes 2:10)
7) To be "saved" you need to confess Jesus as Lord and believe in the resurrection ( Romans 10:9)
8) To be "saved" you need to be in Christ, we are saved by His life ( John 10:9, Romans 5:10)
9) To be "saved" you need to be kept by God's power ( 1 Peter 1:5)
Benefits of Salvation:
1) Were reconciled to God (Romans 5:10)
2) Were redeemed or ransomed ( Romans 3:24)
3) Were no longer under condemnation ( Romans 8:1)
4) Were adopted (Ephes 1:5)
5) We have a propitiation for our sins ( 1 John 2:2)
6) We have been crucified with Christ, died, buried and raised with Him (Romans 6)
7) We are delivered from the Law and dead to it ( Romans 7:4-6)
8) We are a new creation ( 2 Corinth 5:17)
9) We have an imputed righteousness ( 1 Corinth 1:30)
10) We are acceptable to God ( Eph 1:6)
11) We are justified ( Romans 5:1)
12) We have peace with God (Rom 5:1)
13) We have access to God (Rom 5:2)
14) We have forgiveness of sins ( Eph 1:7)
15) We have an inheritance ( 1 Peter 1:4)
16) We are transferred from the Kingdom of darkness to the Kingdom of His Son ( Colossians 1:13)
17) We are being built on a secure foundation ( Eph 2:20)
18) We are no longer in bondage to sin ( Heb 2:14)
19) We are a royal and holy priesthood ( 1 Peter 2:5,9)
20) We have an intercessor ( Heb 7:25)
21) We are heirs ( Romans 8:17)
22) We are ambassadors ( 2 Corinth 5:20)
23) We have eternal life ( 1 John 5:11-12)
24) We have spiritual gifts ( Romans 12:6)
25) We are a sheep, a branch of the vine, a member of His body, a stone in the building, a part of His bride etc.
I could go on and on, but this is some of what I believe is part of salvation.

Chip

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The no-osas belief is basically the same as osas except for losing salvation part. Do you think salvation happens in a different way with no-osas? You'd be wrong. And I agree with you numbered thing on salvation. But let's break down your list for context.

1) Salvation is by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9)8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

And you can also fall from grace: gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

2) 2) We are "saved" from wrath ( Romans 5:9). 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

The word all means everyone. Did not the wrath of God come upon the Israelites? For even a minister of God can be subject to wrath:
rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

3) We are "saved" through the preaching of the Gospel (1Corinth 15:1-2). 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Notice the condition in bold. You see secure salvation needs no conditions.

4) To be considered "saved", you have to be regenerated and indwelt by the Holy Spirit ( Titus 3:5)

Out of context: Titus 3: 1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,
2 To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.
3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Verse 3 shows that we can sin just like the unsaved. Verse 4 shows that our Saviors kindness allows us to do a washing of re-generation, and re-newing of the Holy Ghost as needed. You cannot re-do what has never been done. So you cannot regenerate what you never had, and you cannot renew what you never had. You don't have to redo anything of your salvation is secure. There would be no need for washing of regeneration, or renewing of the Holy Ghost "ever" if salvation is secure.

5) To be "saved" you need to be called according to God's purpose ( 2 Tim 1:9)
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Saying we have to be called for a purpose (works) in order to be saved is making salvation a price to pay and not a free gift. If a man decides that he wants salvation through Christ and God has not called him, will God reject him? There are many who get saved and never do anything for the kingdom (no purpose). So what about them?

6) To be "saved" you need to have a love of the truth ( 2 Thes 2:10).
I agree with that. Because if you love a lie the truth is not in you and therefore you are in danger of losing salvation.

7) We are delivered from the Law and dead to it ( Romans 7:4-6). That is obeying the laws and sin atonement of the old covenant. New covenant means atonement paid. But we are still required to obey:
mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
mt 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
etc...
The law does not save us (dead to it), but it is required to keep.

8) We are a new creation ( 2 Corinth 5:17). But we are not a "perfect" new creation. osas teaches that because we are a new creation, in order to be saved we have to act like it. If we don't we were never truly saved. If that were true the new creation would be perfect and we would never sin again.

9) To be "saved" you need to be kept by God's power ( 1 Peter 1:5).
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Notice that faith is the determining factor of God's power. The power would not have to go through faith, as said, if faith did not determine it. Also, if you study faith you will find that there are degrees of faith which can be translated to degrees of power of God as well. Like the term: Ye of little faith.

Types of faith:

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

Dead faith:

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Demonic faith:

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Dynamic faith:

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

You see, what the osas believer misses is that there are two types of works.
1) Carnal works, working you way to Heaven by living by the golden rule (not no-osas),
2) And kingdom works which only the save can do.

Osas doctrine labels all works as one type. The one mentioned in #1. All works all bad. So do no works. But as we see the Bible makes it very clear that faith minus works is dead and in vain.

Why do you think the judgment was about:

There are spiritual side to what Christ does.

1) I was thirsty and ye gave me no drink = milk of the word for the new in Christ.
2) I was hungry ye gave me no meat = meat of the word for the well versed in Christ.
3) I was naked and ye gave me no clothes = not being clothed in the word of God.
4) I was a stranger and ye did not invite me in = Stranger to the word. A unsaved sinner whom was not given the good news of the gospel.
etc...

You see these things these people were judged for at the throne of Christ were kingdom works. These works separated them from the sheep to be thrown into hell. They got to that judgment because of faith, they failed that judgment because of no kingdom works. Faith without works is dead.

That is what makes salvation conditional and not secure. Faith and no works means certain Christians are not going to make it.

I have a friend who has accepted Christ as his savior. But he won't do kingdom works. Now he has faith, but no works. So what do you think will happen when he gets to Heaven and stands before Christ? Faith got him there, but no works will make him fail.

The sheep = faith plus works.
The goats = faith and no works.

Understand?

#45 chipwag64

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 04:06 PM

Ikester,

You kind of got way ahead of me, I am just trying to find points of agreement to see where we don't agree on the definition of "salvation".
I totally believe that you can fall from grace, I said that before.
I totally believe the condition in 1 Corinthians 15:2.
I totally agree that we can sin, saved and unsaved people.
It seems to me that we both agree that wrath falls on the unsaved.
No one ever taught me that OSAS has no conditions and I don't see that in the Bible.
In Titus 3, I see Paul reminding them how they used to behave. I don't see any statement anywhere that says anyone can be regenerated twice or be renewed twice.
I don't see how a calling is a work? If someone is calling me on the phone, how is that MY work? Did I decide to call myself?, Did I pick up their phone? Did I dial my own phone number?
I was never taught, nor do I see in the Bible that anyone is perfect, saved or unsaved.
I haven't missed the fact that there are carnal works and Kingdom works, nor was I taught that there are only one type of works.

Chip

#46 ikester7579

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 07:32 PM

Ikester,

You kind of got way ahead of me, I am just trying to find points of agreement to see where we don't agree on the definition of "salvation".
I totally believe that you can fall from grace, I said that before.
I totally believe the condition in 1 Corinthians 15:2.
I totally agree that we can sin, saved and unsaved people.
It seems to me that we both agree that wrath falls on the unsaved.
No one ever taught me that OSAS has no conditions and I don't see that in the Bible.
In Titus 3, I see Paul reminding them how they used to behave. I don't see any statement anywhere that says anyone can be regenerated twice or be renewed twice.
I don't see how a calling is a work? If someone is calling me on the phone, how is that MY work? Did I decide to call myself?, Did I pick up their phone? Did I dial my own phone number?
I was never taught, nor do I see in the Bible that anyone is perfect, saved or unsaved.
I haven't missed the fact that there are carnal works and Kingdom works, nor was I taught that there are only one type of works.

Chip

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What does calling someone on the phone got to do with anything to what we are talking about? You see these very comments you make is what I speak of. You think what I say is stupid, so in turn you show me how stupid. Basically after putting up with this again I have come to the conclusion that anything I say, because I disagree with you, is stupid.

Example: Does God call you on the phone? Did God call you and tell you to get saved on your cell? Now you see how I just made you look stupid for that phone comment? You know I could have responded that way, but for what purpose would it be to do so as a representation of Christ? That's a bad representation.

I don;t do theology debates to one up the person I'm debating when ever I cannot address something. It is best to say: I don't know, then: I don't see how a calling is a work? If someone is calling me on the phone, how is that MY work? Did I decide to call myself?, Did I pick up their phone? Did I dial my own phone number?

Basically not only did you just make a mockery out of my comments, but you also made a mockery out of God for making fun of his "calling" on people's lives.

I realize what I say sounds harsh, but I'm tired of using kid gloves with you because it does not work. So if you decide to continue in this debate and make anymore stupid comments to mock things you cannot address, I will suspend you. Start acting like the Christian you claim to be, and be an example.




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