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Logical Issue


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#41 Ron

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 02:36 AM

 

Ventus … Did you not read post # 37?


Do you mean post 34? If so, yes I read it.

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No, I said post # 37… Therefore you DO need to read it…

 

First - In order to have a “valid” and “true” syllogism, what conditions MUST you meet? When you figure that out you’ll discover where you err.


I believe my syllogisms meet the requirements of being both logically and materially consistent.

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Again, “saying it’s so doesn’t make it so”, and you haven’t provided any “valid” or “true” reasoning to any logical or materialistic consistency in your syllogism. Further, I provided why you are incorrect AND illogical in your syllogism, and you have yet to counter (or refute) my dismantling of your reasoning (except your saying “it is so”).


 

Second – You attempt to disqualify the non sequitur up front by making the blatantly fallacious statement “I think many will respond that since men are imperfect we are not capable of completely grasping that which is imperfect - but I don't think that logically follows”. But, it is dishonest AND it does NOT follow! Why, because you are attempting to project (or superimpose) the “misunderstanding” or “misinterpretation” FROM the perpetrator TO the Creator. Unfortunately for you, the Creator stated CLEARLY in several verses how and why NOT to make these mistakes.
Further, when YOU make a mistake or misinterpretation, YOU own it. It is a relativistic ploy to attempt to blame your mistake on someone else.


Sorry, that's a typo. It should have read "we are not capable of grasping that which is PERFECT. My bad.

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It doesn’t matter how you attempt to state it, it is still dishonest AND still does not follow (non sequitur) because you are still “attempting to project (or superimpose) the “misunderstanding” or “misinterpretation” FROM the perpetrator TO the Creator”. And, no matter how you restate it, your flaw remains. This relativistic attempt at reasoning never works logically or rationally.


 

Third – when you made the fallacious statement “I think many will respond that since men are
imperfect we are not capable of completely grasping that which is imperfect - but I don't think that logically follows”, your “I think” statement itself disqualified (or exposed) premise 3 as invalid in reality.


This doesn't make sense to me, please explain.

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Okay… You statement “I Think” is not evidential or factual; it is opinionated. Further, it is presupposition… Even worse it is nothing more than an “a priori” assumption. And you as much admitted that you based your “premise # 3 on you “a priori” assumption. Therefore, not only does this premise fail on the reasons I previously provided, but it fails by your own admission as well.


 

Conclusion: Premise three is false, thus rendering your logic false.

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This is an opinion statement, you have provided no evidence.

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That is not only incorrect, but it is inane as well Ventus. Once again “saying its so, doesn’t make it so”. And if you think the rhetoric of childish tactics will trump logic and rationale (at this forum anyway), you soon find out that civil and honest dialogue simply does not proceed that way.

#42 Ron

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 03:21 AM

As for your assertion re:mathematics there are two flaws I see with your argument. The first is that students are tested on the teaching they have experienced as much, or more than the subject itself. It's not a matter of if they misunderstood math, but if they misunderstood the teacher (or just weren't paying attention.)

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You assertion is fallacious on (at least) two points:

First – If they “misunderstood” the teacher, or just weren’t paying attention, the fault is their own. And blaming it on the teacher is just another indicator of the relativistic sentiments of our society failing our youth. Ethically speaking, if you fail because YOU “misunderstood”, it is incumbent upon YOU (or what YOU ought to do) to go back and get clarifications from your teacher; learn from YOUR mistakes, and do better next time. Further, if you simply weren’t paying attention, YOU have no excuse at all, and YOU ought to pay attention next time. Accept your responsibility, grow up, and move on.

We can do a class on Ethics 101 if you like.

Second – If you are somehow asserting that the “imperfect teacher” is somehow analogous to the “perfect God” in your syllogism, then you will fail. Performedge was making the valid and rational point that the “responsibility” of the student IS analogous to “imperfect man” in your syllogism. BUT, an imperfect teacher CANNOT be analogous to a “perfect God”. By definition, a “perfect God” is “without errors, flaws, or faults, complete and lacking nothing essential, excellent or ideal in every way, having all the necessary or typical characteristics required for a given situation, ”

Assertion three remains valid.

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Incorrect: Premise three fails, not only on my refutation, but the support of the refutation I provided for the refutation of performedge as well.

#43 performedge

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 06:36 AM

As for your assertion re:mathematics

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Assertion?! You've got to be kidding. Right?

there are two flaws I see with your argument. The first is that students are tested on the teaching they have experienced as much, or more than the subject itself. It's not a matter of if they misunderstood math, but if they misunderstood the teacher (or just weren't paying attention.)


Yes Ventus, we are quite aware that you can "see" flaws with everyone's argument except your own. You cannot see that mathematics stands on its own independant of any teacher or student. The rules and procedures of math are well established in books. (similar to God's Word) You cannot see that the teacher is teaching math, so if the stundent doesn't understand the teacher, then he doesn't understand math. No wonder our schools are failing. You cannot see that you can learn math without any teacher at all. You cannot see that people are responsible for their teaching and their learning.

But what concerns me the most is you really think your right! It is people like you who blame the math and the teacher, but never the student. When we know for a fact that the teacher does know more math than the student.

The second is that you fail to demonstrate how math is Perfect.


Well I appologize for assuming that you would simply recognize this.

So Here are some examples for you to ponder.....

base 10 2+2=4 Always, and perfectly always
base 10 2*3=6 Always, and perfectly always
base 10 (2+2)*3 = 12 Always and perfectly always

Do you get the point now? Teachers always teach this (or should). But students do not always get the right answers. The analogy is quite good. The Bible can be perfect, but the students do not always get the right answers.

Assertion three remains valid.


Of Course! Because YOU said so. Let's all bow now to Ventus who perfectly acclaims his assertions as valid. I appologize in advance for my purposeful sarcasm in sincere hope that it will help to open your eyes so you can see!




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