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"no Evidence" For God Or Creation, The Atheist Claims?


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#41 OmneVivumExVivo

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 08:47 PM

"Question to atheist # 1: If the statement is true, "God created the genetic code and DNA to create life", would the genetic code and DNA be evidence for God? ...If your answer is "no", how and why would it NOT be valid evidence of God (while noting that if God created the genetic code, nothing else did)?"

No. The existence of a genetic code is not evidence God created it even if, in fact, God had. Consider the following. If James murdered Betty and Fred, does the murder of Betty and Fred prove James did it, given that if
James had murdered them, then no-one else did? It would be a lot simpler for the police if the fact that there had been a murder was instantly also proof of who committed it, but sadly it's a fantasy even CSI won't stretch to.
Formally, the error is of the following form: If P, then Q.
Q, therefore P.

However, from the bodies of Betty and Fred, one could gain qualitative and quantitative evidence linking James to the crime, correct? Well, the qualitative and quantitative evidence related to the genetic code CERTAINLY points to God!


"Question to atheist # 2: Do you have 100% objective proof that God *didn't* create the genetic code and DNA to create life? If "yes", please provide your proof with zero speculative language."

Do you have proof two gods didn't create it? Or three? Do you have proof 'n' gods didn't create it where n = 0, 1, 2, ...?
(Hint: No such proof exists.) The question cannot distinguish between no, one or many gods being responsible, hence is an example of a fallacy called "ignoratio elenchi". http://en.wikipedia....noratio_elenchi

And YOU just dodged the question.

The fact that you used the possibility that multiple gods created the code in order to answer the question "Do you have 100% objective proof that God *didn't* create the genetic code and DNA to create life?" shows that the answer to the question ACTUALLY ASKED OF YOU is a firm "no."


Why should I believe that is was the Christian god?

That's a topic for another thread. If you're genuinely interested in the answer to that question, PM me.

Question to atheist # 3: Aside from the genetic code and DNA, can you name a SINGLE code (that meets the following definition), that was NOT designed by an intelligent being?

Bird song.
Courtship dances.
Threat displays.
Scent marking.
Territorial displays.
Alarm calls.

Communication =/= code.

The markings on plants and insects that indicate that they are poisonous.

Not only is that just another example of communication, it's also based on the presupposition that those markings evolved.

Oh and would geomagnetic signatures, sedimentary layers and tree-rings count as 'codes' too?

No.

Since they seem to encapsulate information we can access and interpret just like DNA does.

Do they encode for anything useful? Do they convey expected action and intended purpose? DNA does.

Another flaw in this argument is that DNA works solely in chemistry, not in cryptology.

Ever heard of DNA computing?

Triazole and the enzymes that can actually "read dna" are often comprised of forty atoms or less.

Your point being...?

#42 Spectre

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 09:00 PM

I almost didnt reply to this because i suspect you know better. As i have said in other posts( im working on my reply on that evolution thread), being atheist doesnt mean you think we came from nothing. The big bang theory proposes the matter was already there, just compressed.

Actually, in The Big Bang Theory matter was created from the inflation period.

#43 OmneVivumExVivo

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 04:16 PM

Actually, in The Big Bang Theory matter was created from the inflation period.

How? I mean, is gravity really "negative energy" that can create mass in an expanding universe?

#44 Spectre

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 05:14 PM

How? I mean, is gravity really "negative energy" that can create mass in an expanding universe?

That is what the theory currently postulates. Trust me I am just as skeptical of it as you are, I was just correcting Zendra on what the Big bang Theory says. So in short, I was telling Zendra that The Big Bang Theory does not say that matter is eternal and merely expanded.

#45 Shadow

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 07:07 PM

Question to atheist # 2: Do you have 100% objective proof that God *didn't* create the genetic code and DNA to create life? If "yes", please provide your proof with zero speculative language.


The question is metapysical, 100% objective proof can not be dished out. But I am unconvinced about any God or deity from any religious book creating DNA. DNA scraps have been found on Meteorites - as far as I know religious texts such as the Bible, or religions such as Judaism or Islam have nothing to say about life outside of earth, what would the Christian explanation for DNA found on a meteorite be?.

#46 jason

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 07:08 PM

The question is metapysical, 100% objective proof can not be dished out. But I am unconvinced about any God or deity from any religious book creating DNA. DNA scraps have been found on Meteorites - as far as I know religious texts such as the Bible, or religions such as Judaism or Islam have nothing to say about life outside of earth, what would the Christian explanation for DNA found on a meteorite be?.

there has no been life or parts of such found on meteorites to my knowledge.

#47 Shadow

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 07:13 PM

there has no been life or parts of such found on meteorites to my knowledge.


The mainstream scientific community is not fond of panspermia, most of the evidence is usually held back from the public. But this story made the news: http://www.space.com...-discovery.html

#48 jason

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 07:18 PM

The mainstream scientific community is not fond of panspermia, most of the evidence is usually held back from the public. But this story made the news: http://www.space.com...-discovery.html

coponenents not actually dna themselves.

that article says and implies that by natural means that those protiens became life. kinda pleading aint it.

could have and may have aint science! its all conjecture.

#49 supamk3speed

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 07:40 PM

Not DNA for one. The "ingredients" for DNA. Im sorry, but i really don't see how this proves extraterrestrial life or disproves a God who created the universe. Looks like Jason got it before me.

#50 jason777

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 07:52 PM

The question is metapysical, 100% objective proof can not be dished out. But I am unconvinced about any God or deity from any religious book creating DNA. DNA scraps have been found on Meteorites - as far as I know religious texts such as the Bible, or religions such as Judaism or Islam have nothing to say about life outside of earth, what would the Christian explanation for DNA found on a meteorite be?.


NASA is desperate for money again. :lol: Once they get it, the story will change to "Ooops, we were wrong".

DNA is not only specific to each species, but you can also identify an individual by it and it is admissible in a court of law. I would have to say, show me the DNA sequence and compare it to all known species in the data bank.

#51 gilbo12345

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 11:45 PM

coponenents not actually dna themselves.

that article says and implies that by natural means that those protiens became life. kinda pleading aint it.

could have and may have aint science! its all conjecture.


Pleading seems the major arguing point in the evolutionist's repertoire. Its obvious that it is pseudo-science from all these arguements from conjecture / assumption, even Darwin's book was a book of arguements not evidence.

Sorry I'm going to de-rail the thread a bit...

"A pseudoscience is a belief or process which masquerades as science in an attempt to claim a legitimacy which it would not otherwise be able to achieve on its own terms; it is often known as fringe- or alternative science. The most important of its defects is usually the lack of the carefully controlled and thoughtfully interpreted experiments which provide the foundation of the natural sciences and which contribute to their advancement."

http://www.chem1.com.../pseudosci.html


There is a great table showing how one can distinguish pseudoscience, actually here are the points about pseudoscience... Sound familiar. Funnily enough evolution isn't covered.

"Pseudosciences are more likely to be driven by ideological, cultural, or commercial goals."

"The field has evolved very little since it was first established. The small amount of research and experimentation that is carried out is generally done more to justify the belief than to extend it."

"In the pseudosciences, a challenge to accepted dogma is often considered a hostile act if not heresy, and leads to bitter disputes or even schisms."

"Observations or data that are not consistent with established beliefs tend to be ignored or actively suppressed."

"The major tenets and principles of the field are often not falsifiable, and are unlikely ever to be altered or shown to be wrong."

"Pseudoscientific concepts tend to be shaped by individual egos and personalities, almost always by individuals who are not in contact with mainstream science. They often invoke authority (a famous name, for example) for support."

"Pseudoscientific explanations tend to be vague and ambiguous, often invoking scientific terms in dubious contexts."

#52 Ron

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Posted 15 November 2011 - 08:30 AM

Question to atheist # 2: Do you have 100% objective proof that God *didn't* create the genetic code and DNA to create life? If "yes", please provide your proof with zero speculative language.


The question is metapysical, 100% objective proof can not be dished out. But I am unconvinced about any God or deity from any religious book creating DNA. DNA scraps have been found on Meteorites - as far as I know religious texts such as the Bible, or religions such as Judaism or Islam have nothing to say about life outside of earth, what would the Christian explanation for DNA found on a meteorite be?.



“DNA scraps have been found on Meteorites”??? Really??? Can you provide links to said evidence? I’d like to take a look at that…

Having said that, the question isn't metaphysical at all, nor does the objective proof need to be ‘objectively 100%’ for this litmus test. There could indeed be a very large amount of evidence supporting a hypothesis, thus giving said hypothesis traction. For example, if everything the New Testament has to say about Jesus is true, than we have unequivocal evidence that God is proven! Further, if God is proven, then God not only created the universe, but DNA as well, and we have 100% objective proof that God did indeed create the genetic code and DNA to create life! Now if you want to argue against that… Okay… Though I doubt I would have posited the question that way, I understand what he was asking. Therefore your answer was far less than the OP asked for (i.e. speculative language).

Further, basing your claim that “religions such as Judaism or Islam have nothing to say about life outside of earth” in no way negates the possibility that God may well have created life outside Earth, so your assumption is nothing more than an example of the logical fallacy “Argumentum ad Ignorantiam”, and even “argumentum ex silentio”… Simply because something wasn’t stated, in no way negates its possibility. In fact, the question you posit causes a much larger problem for the materialistic atheist/agnostic than it does for the theist or theistic evolutionist (as BOTH are creationists).

Therefore, to your last question: “what would the Christian explanation for DNA found on a meteorite be?” I would say “So what! This isn’t a problem for the Bible or the Theist!”

#53 Ron

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Posted 15 November 2011 - 08:58 AM

DNA scraps have been found on Meteorites


Oh, okay… I see your link. I think you have some major problems with your hypothesis here. Your sentence above gives the inference that “scraps” of DNA were found on Meteorites; when in fact the link states that “building blocks” for DNA may have been found on Meteorites. This is a very vague and ambiguous hypothesis to make a claim from; to which I would ask “What else could these be the ‘building blocks’ for; and what actual evidence do you have that this will, in fact, result in DNA or LIFE?”

Further, the entire article is rife with “guessing” type statements such as: “All this has implications for the origins of life”, “could generate nucleobases”, “thought by many experts to be”, “meteorites may have been molecular tool kits”, “they apparently did not come from the surrounding area” (etcetera… etcetera…). So the claim you make can come off as dishonest or amateurish at best.

Also, the word “scraps” infer that it was at one time actual DNA, as the word “scraps” denoted that which is left over from something having already been built or created (past-tense). But, “building blocks” on the other hand are precursors (future-tense).

Your above assertion is baseless, as it has no factual foundation from which to draw the conclusion you have.

#54 Shadow

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Posted 15 November 2011 - 11:03 AM

and we have 100% objective proof that God did indeed create the genetic code and DNA to create life


am I missing something here? You were there were you watching God create the genetic code and Dna? What you have is not 100% objective proof. I know Hindu creationists who say Brahman essentially created the DNA, I know ancient astronaut theorists who say extraterrestrials created the DNA, I know new agers who say the origin of DNA has the origins in some universal consciousness (personally that makes more sense that any god creating anything), I also know Darwinists who say the DNA came about by accident. These are all metaphysical positions, we are out of the realm of objectivity here.

#55 Shadow

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Posted 15 November 2011 - 11:18 AM

building blocks” for DNA may have been found on Meteorites.


No not may have, they have been found and tested. They found a large number of nucleobases such as Adenine and Guanine (molecules) they have been found in meteorites which are the same as found in dna on earth. The Christian theist would need to explain why these molecules (DNA building blocks) are found in space, when there is no mention of life existing in space in the Bible.

http://www.engadget....-originated-in/

Watch the video:

http://www.youtube.c...&v=1g7AKVZ3HC4#!

#56 gilbo12345

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Posted 15 November 2011 - 03:05 PM

No not may have, they have been found and tested. They found a large number of nucleobases such as Adenine and Guanine (molecules) they have been found in meteorites which are the same as found in dna on earth. The Christian theist would need to explain why these molecules (DNA building blocks) are found in space, when there is no mention of life existing in space in the Bible.

http://www.engadget....-originated-in/

Watch the video:

http://www.youtube.c...&v=1g7AKVZ3HC4#!


Firstly, building blocks are not "life" per se, they are just building blocks...

I believe Ron has already said that it doesn't matter if the Bible doesn't talk about "life" in space. Since it does claim that there are other truths no revealed that are God's alone, perhaps life on other planets is one of them. Even if life was found in outer space, that wouldn't contradict anything.

#57 Spectre

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Posted 15 November 2011 - 05:08 PM

No not may have, they have been found and tested. They found a large number of nucleobases such as Adenine and Guanine (molecules) they have been found in meteorites which are the same as found in dna on earth. The Christian theist would need to explain why these molecules (DNA building blocks) are found in space, when there is no mention of life existing in space in the Bible.

http://www.engadget....-originated-in/

Watch the video:

http://www.youtube.c...&v=1g7AKVZ3HC4#!

I disagree about this being a problem for the Christian theist. The Bible is not a book that tells us everything, it certainly doesn't mention other family trees besides the one particular one that is focused on, that doesn't mean that the other families didn't exist. That's just my take. The Bible is silent on the issue, that doesn't mean that it is claiming that there isn't life somewhere else in the universe.

#58 gilbo12345

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Posted 15 November 2011 - 05:22 PM

am I missing something here? You were there were you watching God create the genetic code and Dna? What you have is not 100% objective proof. I know Hindu creationists who say Brahman essentially created the DNA, I know ancient astronaut theorists who say extraterrestrials created the DNA, I know new agers who say the origin of DNA has the origins in some universal consciousness (personally that makes more sense that any god creating anything), I also know Darwinists who say the DNA came about by accident. These are all metaphysical positions, we are out of the realm of objectivity here.


DNA and its properties do give evidence of a designer, the question of WHO this designer is, is the subject of another thread. Feel free to make a thread asking this.

However what can be claimed is that DNA gives evidence against the naturalist position that life "evolved" from non-life.

#59 OmneVivumExVivo

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Posted 15 November 2011 - 05:59 PM

The question is metapysical, 100% objective proof can not be dished out. But I am unconvinced about any God or deity from any religious book creating DNA. DNA scraps have been found on Meteorites - as far as I know religious texts such as the Bible, or religions such as Judaism or Islam have nothing to say about life outside of earth, what would the Christian explanation for DNA found on a meteorite be?.

Nucleotides? Yes. But I highly doubt that true DNA in the sense of polymerized deoxyribonucleotides encoding for specific gene products have been found in outer space.

In other words, I'd like to see the source. I'm sure you have one, I'd just like to see it so I can tell how close what they found is to DNA.

#60 OmneVivumExVivo

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Posted 15 November 2011 - 07:12 PM

No not may have, they have been found and tested. They found a large number of nucleobases such as Adenine and Guanine (molecules) they have been found in meteorites which are the same as found in DNA on earth. The Christian theist would need to explain why these molecules (DNA building blocks) are found in space, when there is no mention of life existing in space in the Bible.

http://www.engadget....-originated-in/

Watch the video:

http://www.youtube.c...&v=1g7AKVZ3HC4#!

Ok, I should have gone further in the thread before I start responding to your comments. My bad.

The first thing I'd like to note is that what was found is not DNA. What was found was a part of one of DNA's monomers(deoxyribonucleoside). Not a whole deoxyribonucloside, these lacked the phosphate group and the deoxyribose molecule. All they found was the base itself, the nucleobase. These molecules are quite a ways away from being used in living things.

The second thing I'd like to note is that all the nucleobases they found are all purines. Origin of life scientists haven't the foggiest idea how to make pyrimidine bases via abiotically realistic processes. They just don't. Purines, however, seem to be a lot easier for some reason, which is actually kind of odd, because purines are polycyclic, while pyrimidines are monocyclic. Ah well, chemistry will do what chemistry will do.

Third, the reason the Bible doesn't mention purines in meteorites is because no humans knew purines (or pyrimidines, for that matter!) EXISTED until the last century or so. So if there was some hypothetical extra Psalm saying something about God being "He who casts the nucleobases throughout the heavens," (to the best of my knowledge, there's no ancient Hebrew word for nucleobase, which only makes my argument all the more valid) no one for the first twenty-five hundred years after the writing of said Psalm would be able to appreciate it!




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