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Heb. 9:22? Why?


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#21 jamo0001

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 03:59 AM

Jesus' death gave God the legal grounds to be "nice."


What exactly is the cause:effect mechanism of this? Jesus went down and stole Satan's gate key? Is God not just as pure and incompatible with the sinful being as he was before the death?

#22 MamaElephant

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 04:38 AM

What exactly is the cause:effect mechanism of this? Jesus went down and stole Satan's gate key? Is God not just as pure and incompatible with the sinful being as he was before the death?

God is just as pure. The difference is that we are no longer impure because he has washed us clean. It wasn't just a sacrifice involving the blood of a perfect innocent human was it? In that case Jesus would have spent less time on the earth. He was perfect, sinless and innocent as a child, was he not? So there must be something missing from the idea of an innocent sacrifice.

Jesus grew into an adult human before starting in the ministry, then taught us for 3 and a half years before the sacrifice and 40 days afterward. He even said, "To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth." His purpose then was to teach us about His perfect love so that we will choose to have communion with Him. This communion is what washes us clean.

#23 jamo0001

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 05:58 AM

God is just as pure. The difference is that we are no longer impure because he has washed us clean. It wasn't just a sacrifice involving the blood of a perfect innocent human was it? In that case Jesus would have spent less time on the earth. He was perfect, sinless and innocent as a child, was he not? So there must be something missing from the idea of an innocent sacrifice.

Jesus grew into an adult human before starting in the ministry, then taught us for 3 and a half years before the sacrifice and 40 days afterward. He even said, "To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth." His purpose then was to teach us about His perfect love so that we will choose to have communion with Him. This communion is what washes us clean.


"Washing" is a metaphor. How does it actually change the supposed fact that a pure God cannot coexist in heaven with a sinful being?

#24 MamaElephant

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 07:57 AM

"And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission." -Hebrews 9:22 (KJV)

Why blood? Because blood is life.

Around 35 years ago, someone who didn't know me decided to save my life before I was even born, and they still don't know who I am. I was born with a liver that didn't work. My blood was poisoned and I was dying. The doctors did a total blood transfer... taking my poisoned blood out and putting in the blood of a stranger who cared enough to share their life with me. How should I feel about this person who donated this blood to the hospital?

Blood is life. We were all born without this life. The gift God gives is eternal life. 27And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; 28For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

#25 jamo0001

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 07:59 AM

Why blood? Because blood is life.

Around 35 years ago, someone who didn't know me decided to save my life before I was even born, and they still don't know who I am. I was born with a liver that didn't work. My blood was poisoned and I was dying. The doctors did a total blood transfer... taking my poisoned blood out and putting in the blood of a stranger who cared enough to share their life with me. How should I feel about this person who donated this blood to the hospital?

Blood is life. We were all born without this life. The gift God gives is eternal life. 27And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; 28For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.


So blood is an analogy? Or are you saying that blood is required for spiritual life, as well?

#26 ChrisCarlascio

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 08:32 AM

What exactly is the cause:effect mechanism of this? Jesus went down and stole Satan's gate key? Is God not just as pure and incompatible with the sinful being as he was before the death?

So you didn't read what I said about us being soil and returning to soil, so when Jesus died, he died, and didn't go down anywhere and steal anyone's gate key. There is no place Satan stays in. He can go around anywhere (Job 1:7).

Isn't blood required for us to physically live?

#27 jamo0001

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 08:55 AM

Isn't blood required for us to physically live?


Yes. But I'm not sure what that has to do with getting anyone into heaven.

#28 ChrisCarlascio

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 09:07 AM

Yes. But I'm not sure what that has to do with getting anyone into heaven.

I'm not sure if she was talking about getting anyone into heaven, but she could have been. EDIT: I see what your saying now, about not being born with blood. I love you MamaElephant, but I don't see where your coming from. The blood is definitely essential for us to live though.

God is the one who gets people into heaven though. Christ died for our sins, was entombed, and roused the third day. All by God's work. Even still,

"For in grace, through faith (in the good news of Christ's death, entombment, and resurrection), are you saved, and this (faith) is not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works (like preferring to believe over preferring not to believe), lest anyone should be boasting. For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them." (Ephesians 2:8)

Even our faith in the good news of Christ's death, entombment, and resurrection was a free and gracious gift of God, so that we can't even boast by saying we are smarter than people who don't believe it, by choosing or preferring to believe when they don't. In his grace (unmerited favor), God has given us this faith and not them. So if you don't believe, don't worry, I believe this faith will either be given to you one day or you'll see Christ for yourself.

In light of this, how on earth could there possibly be an eternal torment or eternal fire? Would God really not give people the faith just so they can go suffer forever!? No no no, Christ's work is more than able to save everyone.

#29 MamaElephant

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 10:20 AM

Now I understand that you are talking about a different point now, but you have brought up this point in a past post and I don't think we have addressed it to satisfaction. I need to add to my story because you seem to not understand this: Everything Jesus has done for us the Father has done for us also. "I and my father are one." John 10:30

John 4:17But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.” 18For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. 19Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. 20“For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel. 21“For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.

Why blood? Because blood is life.

Around 35 years ago, someone who didn't know me decided to save my life before I was even born, and they still don't know who I am. I was born with a liver that didn't work. My blood was poisoned and I was dying. The doctors did a total blood transfer... taking my poisoned blood out and putting in the blood of a stranger who cared enough to share their life with me. How should I feel about this person who donated this blood to the hospital?

Blood is life. We were all born without this life. The gift God gives is eternal life. 27And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; 28For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

So I will add... how do I feel about the doctors who orchestrated this blood transfusion? They asked for a volunteer to donate blood. The volunteer then gave of his/her time and energy, suffered pain, gave some of their life force, and let's say that he/she even could have fainted and felt week for several days afterward until their blood supply was caught back up. Am I then angry at the doctors for doing this?

#30 ChrisCarlascio

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 10:27 AM

Now I understand that you are talking about a different point now, but you have brought up this point in a past post and I don't think we have addressed it to satisfaction. I need to add to my story because you seem to not understand this: Everything Jesus has done for us the Father has done for us also. "I and my father are one." John 10:30

John 4:17But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.” 18For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. 19Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. 20“For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel. 21“For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.

This is directed at jamo0001, right?

Around 35 years ago, someone who didn't know me decided to save my life before I was even born, and they still don't know who I am. I was born with a liver that didn't work. My blood was poisoned and I was dying. The doctors did a total blood transfer... taking my poisoned blood out and putting in the blood of a stranger who cared enough to share their life with me. How should I feel about this person who donated this blood to the hospital?

That was a moving story. That person was truly gracious. Can you ever find out who they were? I'm happy your here and that that person and God did that for you.

#31 MamaElephant

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 10:34 AM

This is directed at jamo0001, right?

yes

I am sorry... I don't mean to make this all about me. I just thought that the blood transfusion was a good illustration. It is very similar to Jesus telling us to drink his blood. There is more on that in the article that I linked earlier.

That was a moving story. That person was truly gracious. Can you ever find out who they were? I'm happy your here and that that person and God did that for you.

I don't know who they were. I think finding out and thanking them would bring great healing to me. You see, most of my life I did not appreciate this gift. The doctors had to take custody from my parents in order to give it to me and I was taught to resent this rather than appreciate it.

Okay, hopefully I am done hi-jacking the thread. Once again, I apologize.

#32 ChrisCarlascio

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 10:46 AM

I don't know who they were. I think finding out and thanking them would bring great healing to me. You see, most of my life I did not appreciate this gift. The doctors had to take custody from my parents in order to give it to me and I was taught to resent this rather than appreciate it.

Can't you find out by calling the hospital and stuff like that, unless they wanted to remain anonymous? I hope you've been healing greatly from that resentment and I hope you remember, as hard as it is to sometimes grasp or understand, (Romans 8:28).

#33 jamo0001

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 07:26 PM

I'm still not understanding how the physical action of spilling blood causes some metaphysical change in what God can/cannot do "justly" (if somehow we consider the suicide/murder/sacrifice/whatever of an innocent to be "just"). Where's the link? And using Scripture to justify other Scripture doesn't get you anywhere. It's all still arbitrary hearsay unless you find a universal, logical underpinning that supports the circular reasoning of NT bloodthirsty theology.

#34 ChrisCarlascio

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 09:45 PM

I'm still not understanding how the physical action of spilling blood causes some metaphysical change in what God can/cannot do "justly" (if somehow we consider the suicide/murder/sacrifice/whatever of an innocent to be "just"). Where's the link? And using Scripture to justify other Scripture doesn't get you anywhere.


Please read this one quick chapter atleast: Sin for Sin

It gives you the details.

It's all still arbitrary hearsay unless you find a universal, logical underpinning that supports the circular reasoning of NT bloodthirsty theology.

Nobody is out there all blood thirty (well maybe lol) trying to sacrifice humans and animals. This is not a joyful thing, when the people of Israel had to sacrifice animals or when God's son was sacrificed. Nobody was dancing around his dead corpse after he died. The animals will be alive again one day and Christ is already back alive. Please read that chapter and if it interests you, try to check out the other chapters.

#35 Air-run

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 10:10 PM

I'm still not understanding how the physical action of spilling blood causes some metaphysical change in what God can/cannot do "justly" (if somehow we consider the suicide/murder/sacrifice/whatever of an innocent to be "just"). Where's the link? And using Scripture to justify other Scripture doesn't get you anywhere. It's all still arbitrary hearsay unless you find a universal, logical underpinning that supports the circular reasoning of NT bloodthirsty theology.


I think you have your mind stuck in the metaphysical when God has given us plenty of "earthly" examples of what redemption is all about.
Do you really think you could understand the metaphysical with your physical brain? There is a reason Jesus spoke in parables, God spoke with physical examples.

Listen to Jesus' words and take them to heart "If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?"

Forget trying to understand what happens in the metaphysical or spiritual. You won't understand it if the physical examples don't make sense.

The best way I find to understand it is in a courtroom setting. Even if I don't fully understand how blood can affect spiritual things, I can understand the illustration of justice, judgement, and redemption.

Focus on the simple concepts first:

1.) God is a perfect, holy judge. (agree or disagree?)
2.) We are guilty of breaking his law. (agree or disagree?)
3.) The debt for our sins is increasingly great - greater than we have the ability to repay. (agree or disagree?)
4.) There is only one person capable of paying our debt - Jesus. (agree or disagree?)
5.) If the debt is paid, we are no longer accountable for the debt. (agree or disagree?)
*One thing to add to this: It's not just that Jesus took the penalty for our sins - somehow (don't ask me how), God made it as if Jesus
was the one who committed those sins. He literally became sin for us. It's as if when God played back the film of our life, Jesus
was spliced into the film whenever we sinned.

When someone is not guilty, the judge is able to offer them certain respects and privileges that they are not entitled to when they are guilty. When you are guilty, you are not allowed to roam freely, not allowed to eat what you want, not allowed to get a job, etc.

If a judge afforded you the privileges of an innocent man when you were guilty, that judge would not be following the law.


By faith we allow Jesus to be the one who takes our sin and pays its price. As a result, we are innocent. It is only once we are innocent that God, the judge, is able to treat us with the privileges that come with being innocent.

I'm disturbed by your view of Jesus' sacrifice as being blood thirsty. The term implies a lust for blood - taking pleasure in seeing blood spilled. If you honestly believe that is God's stance, than I encourage you to read the Bible again. Death is a hefty price for sin because the price is extremely hefty. The price is greater than our own life - but that's the max we can give. Blood is just a symbol for death. There is nothing magical about plasma.

Lastly, I think it's helpful to understand that Jesus didn't have to pay a sacrificial death because God arbitrarily set up an elaborate system of animal sacrifices in the OT. It's not as if God made the rules in the OT and then Jesus was later bound to them. No - the OT sacrificial system was set up to reflect the future sacrifice of Jesus. It was because of Jesus' planned death on the cross that Israel was given the sacrificial system. It was to solidify the understanding of what the penalty for sin is and that God (in his mercy) provides a way of escaping the penalty.

#36 MamaElephant

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 10:36 PM

I'm not sure if she was talking about getting anyone into heaven, but she could have been. EDIT: I see what your saying now, about not being born with blood. I love you MamaElephant, but I don't see where your coming from. The blood is definitely essential for us to live though.

My point of the story was that we are all born with poisoned blood, because we eventually die. But Jesus' blood saves us.

I am thinking, though, that an Eastern Orthodox view would probably make more sense to Jam.

http://www.frederica...t-for-sins.html

http://www.patheos.c...and-Action.html

#37 jamo0001

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 03:58 PM

*One thing to add to this: It's not just that Jesus took the penalty for our sins - somehow (don't ask me how), God made it as if Jesus
was the one who committed those sins. He literally became sin for us. It's as if when God played back the film of our life, Jesus
was spliced into the film whenever we sinned.


So far, this is the only "explanation" to my original question. Everything else (except for the "Sin for Sin" link Chris provided, which I'm still reading) is merely a restatement of the premise in my original question.


I'll give you the background to this: right at 10 years ago, my sophomore year of high school, I was doing unofficial homework from our Bible teacher. We were asked to attempt internet-based evangelism and then come back and discuss the material we had discussed in class regarding strategies of evangelism.

During the online chat I was having with an individual, I was describing how Jesus' death was God's way of providing us a means to get into heaven. The more scripture I quoted, the more he asked the same question: "Why does that work?" Eventually, I had an epiphany and understood what he was asking. Every portion of the salvation process was completely arbitrary in nature unless you rely on other Biblical verses. It does not make sense on its own. (Note: This was years and years before I questioned the existence of God himself. I merely thought that I hadn't learned enough Scripture and NT theology in order to answer his question.)

#38 Fred Williams

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 04:06 PM

During the online chat I was having with an individual, I was describing how Jesus' death was God's way of providing us a means to get into heaven. The more scripture I quoted, the more he asked the same question: "Why does that work?" Eventually, I had an epiphany and understood what he was asking. Every portion of the salvation process was completely arbitrary in nature unless you rely on other Biblical verses. It does not make sense on its own. (Note: This was years and years before I questioned the existence of God himself. I merely thought that I hadn't learned enough Scripture and NT theology in order to answer his question.)


Perhaps the following illustration will help:

An incident that took place several years ago in California illuminates what Jesus did on the cross in order to solve the problem God had with dealing with the sin of humanity. A young woman was picked up for speeding. She was ticketed and taken before the judge. The judge read off the citation and said "Guilty or not guilty?". The woman replied, "Guilty". The judge brought down the gavel and fined her $100 or ten days. Then an amazing thing took place. The judge stood up, took off his robe,walked down around in front, took out his billfold, and paid the fine. What's the explanation of this? The judge was her father. He loved his daughter, yet he was a just judge. His daughter had broken the law and he couldn't simply say to her "Because I love you so much, I forgive you. You may leave". If he had done that, he wouldn't have been a righteous judge. He wouldn't have upheld the law. But he loved his daughter so much that he was willing to take off his judicial robe and come down in front and represent her as her father and pay the fine. (Josh McDowell, More Than A Carpenter, Tyndale House Publishers, 1977, pgs 114-115)

#39 ChrisCarlascio

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 04:48 PM

So far, this is the only "explanation" to my original question. Everything else (except for the "Sin for Sin" link Chris provided, which I'm still reading) is merely a restatement of the premise in my original question.

I really thank you for checking it out (its hard for us humans to relate to such an idea, as the author starts off saying) and I agree with Christ becoming sin.

I'll give you the background to this: right at 10 years ago, my sophomore year of high school, I was doing unofficial homework from our Bible teacher. We were asked to attempt internet-based evangelism and then come back and discuss the material we had discussed in class regarding strategies of evangelism.

During the online chat I was having with an individual, I was describing how Jesus' death was God's way of providing us a means to get into heaven. The more scripture I quoted, the more he asked the same question: "Why does that work?" Eventually, I had an epiphany and understood what he was asking. Every portion of the salvation process was completely arbitrary in nature unless you rely on other Biblical verses. It does not make sense on its own. (Note: This was years and years before I questioned the existence of God himself. I merely thought that I hadn't learned enough Scripture and NT theology in order to answer his question.)

I hope we've helped you understand to atleast a tiny degree why it makes sense apart from the Bible, but the Bible is really where you get it explained out to us in a way we humans would have never grasped on our own. Like that link says, sacrifice and blood-shedding is so against what us humans would do or think to make matters right, but its God's method of dealing with things and causing a change in our perspective.

http://www.patheos.com/Library/Eastern-Orthodoxy/Ethics-Morality-Community/Principles-of-Moral-Thought-and-Action.html

This article says right at the start:

"Eastern Orthodoxy teaches that the Christian life will ultimately lead to the deification of humans and all of creation."

I don't think so. Us and the creation will not be deified. We will not become gods or things like this. This is exactly what the "satanists" believe and all the other weird cults. I'm not bashing your links, but I don't think the scripture teaches the idea anywhere that we will become gods as Satan said to Eve in the garden of Eden.

#40 MamaElephant

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 06:42 PM

The orthodox teaching of the ransom is very different than a payment for someone's sins. It is nothing like the statement in the OP. It might help Jam to come to an understanding from a different angle. I don't know enough about it to say much more, or to recommend it really, but an Orthodox said this to me: The financial model of salvation is a newer development of doctrine. Who is owed the payment and why? Are we paying God or Satan? Also, as far as I understand, in Orthodoxy His resurrection is just as important as His death. Here is a link. I am new to all of this, so I am not really recommending this view, but it is a different one than what has been previously offered. The word "reconciler" is where the most pressing of information is contained. http://oca.org/OCcha...asp?SID=2&ID=20

I don't think so. Us and the creation will not be deified. We will not become gods or things like this. This is exactly what the "satanists" believe and all the other weird cults. I'm not bashing your links, but I don't think the scripture teaches the idea anywhere that we will become gods as Satan said to Eve in the garden of Eden.

I didn't look at the word deified in the article in that way. Not arguing with you, but then why does New Jerusalem come down out of heaven and why are Christ's followers called his joint heirs?




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