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For Whom Was God's Law Intended, Israel Only Or The World?


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#201 Hawkins

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 08:21 AM

IMO, ultimately the purpose of God's Law is to guard the fence of His Kingdom in Heaven. God's Law provides guidance to righteousness, yet humans on earth may hardly achieve. As a result and in this sense, you may also say that in effect and in this planet earth Law doesn't act as a guidance. The big picture is, planet is not inside God's Kingdom (except for Eden at the time before Adam's fall). Planet earth is rather inside Satan's realm (not in terms of His sovereignty though), but God has never treated His influence in this earth as God still sees this is a field of harvest, harvest through Jesus Christ.

#202 Fred Williams

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 08:39 AM

This is not a spin Fred it is an address to the fact that you made an erroneous claim about what I had stated. Why call this spin?


Yes, it is spin, the problem is that your claim is so remarkably dumb it causes you to contradict yourself without you even realizing it (just in case the reader is new to this thread, the reason I am so hard on Levi is not just because of his petulance, but also because he says death is not a deterrent at all, which is dumb as rocks, as my myriad of examples have proven). In the post in question, here is what you said:

If you gouge people's eyes out [for stealing apples] you will not reduce the incidences of apple theft.
...you can not legislate people to have the fruits of the Spirit nor good moral conduct. You will only create more hardened and desperate criminals.




Do you deny you contradicted yourself above? As we have pointed out here, it is OK to occasionally admit you are wrong. It's not as hard as you think! Otherwise, why should anyone trust what you write, or take you seriously, if you can't muster the courage to admit when you've clearly been shown to be in error? This isn't something that's just a matter of opinion we can disagree on, its hard fact, common sense, that is enforced by the Bible as I will again show below (something TeeJay has already cited).


The H*mos*xual does not stop his act of unprotected s@x although he knows his risks of contracting aids are astronomical.

The drug addict does not refrain from using a dirty needle although he knows the risks

The smoker does not stop smoking 40 cigarettes a day although he knows it will kill him.

The drunkard does not stop drinking although his liver is shot and gangrene is setting in in his extremities.

The drug smuggler does not stop smuggling although he knows the risk is death.

The murderer does not stop and think in the heat of satanic rage that overtakes him.

The rapist does not think about anything else when he is possessed by lust.


None of this proves that death is not a deterrent. Remember, to this point you've said its ZERO deterrent. All you have is your own personal opinion and worldly travels for us to rely on, instead of hard data such as I had provided.

The only two death penalties that are as a deterrent are for: "enticing to false gods" and "bearing false witness". Which speaks volumes in a nation set aside and standing apart because of their God.


LOL! Now you admit it does have some deterrent value, yet only for "enticing to false gods" and "bearing false witness"? My goodness, man. Whew! Care to explain why its a deterrent for these, and not for other crimes? Uh, and where does it say that lying is a capital offense? Hint - it's only a capital offense if the lie results in another man's death.

Levi, I'm anxious to see how you spin God's Word as follows, where he makes it plainly clear that death is a deterrent:

"So you shall put away the evil from Israel. And all the people shall hear and fear, and no longer act presumptuously." (Deut 17:12-13)

"Because the sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil." (Eccl 8:11)

Also I would like everyone to consider this VERY IMPORTANT Biblical truth:
Romans 13:2 "Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment".

This answers your question Teejay that you seem to think I have not answered but I have addressed it many times.

The Law that should be enforced in your society today is the law of your government AS ORDAINED BY GOD!



Levi, you just defeated your own argument, if you would just interpret this as it is plainly written, instead of reading into it what you want it to say. It precisely supports TeeJay and my position!!! I highly recommend you use blueletterbible.org to look up word meanings. The word used for ordinance is associated with the LAW! (link) Posted Image

I'm now awaiting your spin of Romans 13:2, now that its been shown that your use of the verse backfired badly. Are you going to show this forum any ability to reason and learn, or are you really this convinced that you are right on every issue possible?


#203 Fred Williams

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 09:17 AM

IMO, ultimately the purpose of God's Law is to guard the fence of His Kingdom in Heaven. God's Law provides guidance to righteousness, yet humans on earth may hardly achieve. As a result and in this sense, you may also say that in effect and in this planet earth Law doesn't act as a guidance. The big picture is, planet is not inside God's Kingdom (except for Eden at the time before Adam's fall). Planet earth is rather inside Satan's realm (not in terms of His sovereignty though), but God has never treated His influence in this earth as God still sees this is a field of harvest, harvest through Jesus Christ.


I appreciate your opinion, it seems to be common among the brethren here. I take your comments to endorse the position that we shouldn't reference God's law in establishing our own principles for the justice system. However, this thread asks a tough question that is still not being fully addressed. What standard or basis should we use to establish our criminal justice system? That is, what should the penalty be for murder, rape, kidnapping, and what basis do you have to determine the punishment?

I realize it is obvious where TeeJay and I are going with this. Please take the following as emphasis, not shouting:Posted Image

FELLOW CHRISTIANS, LET'S CUT TO THE CHASE: YOU DO NOT HAVE A BASIS TO GO BY TO SAY WHAT THE PENALTIES SHOULD BE, OTHER THAN YOUR FALLIBLE OPINION.

You can't reference the Bible, because nowhere does Jesus overturn any of the penalties established in the OT, nor does he offer a new system of justice under the new covenant. Nowhere can such verses be found, in fact, as we have shown, there are plenty of verses where OT penal statues are supported in the NT. If you can find verses where penal statutes are overturned, I will be interested (seriously) to see them.

Personally, I've learned to not trust my opinion, at least in those cases where I can fight past the stubbornness of the flesh. If I list of things my opinion failed me on, it would take too long and exhaust the harddrive space used for this forum. I too had similar beliefs in the past on penal statues, but God is a tad smarter than me, OK, He is INFINITELY smarter than me. That is why I believe as I do regarding the excellent, and understandably controversial, question TeeJay raised.

#204 Teejay

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 09:46 AM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1313848553' post='74414']
Okay. I know a lot of unsaved people. I am sure you do too. Let's gather them all up, put them in jail on death row, read them some scriptures to show them why. Then they will all accept Jesus all the sooner, and if not, the world will be a better place. Right?
[/quote]

ME, we can't really do what you suggest. God can't do it either. Our God is a just God. If He did what you suggest, then He would not be just and sin would enter the Godhead and God would come undone. Here' why.

Presently,thanks to George Bush, sodomy in Texas and the rest of the country is legal. Now it's not legal in the eyes of God but our government told everyone it was legal. Our government can't arrest people for behavior they declared legal. it would be like inviting someone into your house and then arresting them for unlawful entry.

God, unlike our immoral politicians, does not make law retroactive back in time. You can use Cain as an example. Because God had not yet commanded punishment for murderers, He did not put Cain to death nor did He allow anyone else to put him to death.

Presently, in America, because God's law is not swiftly enforced, government authorities are swamped with criminal cases. The police can't handled all of it, and the courts are so overloaded that it by the time a murderer is brought to trial, we can't remember who he is or who he murdered. A swift, sure death penalty would reduce the number of friends you have that are committing adultery, h*m*s*xuality, incest, just to name a few.

When people do not see justice on earth it becomes increasingly difficult for them to believe that there is a just God in heaven. God put a yearning for justice in our hearts. That's why everyone cheers at the end of movie when the bad guy gets killed. Or at least they used to do so. Today, they will probably cheer for the villain.

ME, No more. You don't like God's system. Please present yours.

TeeJay

#205 Teejay

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 09:49 AM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1313848627' post='74415']
The Lord isn't really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent.
[/quote]

ME, Your "opinion" is 180 degrees opposite God's opinion.

TeeJay

#206 Teejay

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 09:52 AM

[quote] name='Hawkins' timestamp='1313853663' post='74417']
IMO, ultimately the purpose of God's Law is to guard the fence of His Kingdom in Heaven. God's Law provides guidance to righteousness, yet humans on earth may hardly achieve. As a result and in this sense, you may also say that in effect and in this planet earth Law doesn't act as a guidance. The big picture is, planet is not inside God's Kingdom (except for Eden at the time before Adam's fall). Planet earth is rather inside Satan's realm (not in terms of His sovereignty though), but God has never treated His influence in this earth as God still sees this is a field of harvest, harvest through Jesus Christ.[/quote]

Hawkins,

Did you just make all this up to see what kind of reaction you'd get?

TeeJay

#207 jason

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 10:18 AM

uh, since when were gentiles werent saved by grace under the earthly ministry of grace under christ?

uh yeah, the syrophoneachian woman, and the roman centurion, they believed.


and jesus said what in john 3:16? IT WAS ONLY GOING TO GO IN EFFECT IF PAUL CAME TO CHRIST?

UH hear,

my justice system that i did refer too.

and you reject it and you also didnt know they also werent for the freedom of religion.

withcraft is a religion and ironically seldom did they execute them.

from wikipedia on the puritians and the mass bay colony(plymouth colony)

As a legislative body, the General Court could make proclamations of law as needed. In the early years of the colony, these laws were not formally compiled anywhere. In 1636 these laws were first organized and published in the 1636 Book of Laws. The book was reissued in 1658, 1672, and 1685.[79] Among these laws included the levying of "rates", or taxes, and the distribution of colony lands.[104] The General Court established townships as a means of providing local government over settlements, but reserved for itself the right to control specific distribution of land to individuals within those towns. When new land was granted to a freeman, it was directed that only the person to whom the land was granted was allowed to settle it.[105] It was forbidden for individual settlers to purchase land from Native Americans without formal permission from the General Court.[106] The government recognized the precarious peace that existed with the Wampanoag, and wished to avoid antagonizing them by buying up all of their land.[107]

The laws also set out crimes and their associated punishment. There were several crimes that mandated the death penalty: treason, murder, witchcraft, arson, sodomy, rape, b*stiality, adultery, and cursing or smiting one's parents.[108] The actual exercise of the death penalty was fairly rare; only one s@x-related crime, a 1642 incidence of b*stiality by Thomas Granger, resulted in execution.[109] One person, Edward Bumpus, was sentenced to death for "striking and abusing his parents" in 1679, but his sentence was commuted to a severe whipping by reason of insanity.[110] Perhaps the most notable use of the death penalty was in the execution of the Native Americans convicted of the murder of John Sassamon; this helped lead to King Philip's War.[111] Though nominally a capital crime, adultery was usually dealt with by public humiliation only. Convicted adulterers were often forced to wear the letters "A.D." sewn into their garments, much in the manner of Hester Prynne in Nathaniel Hawthorne's novel The Scarlet Letter.[112][113][114]

Several laws dealt with indentured servitude, a legal status whereby a person would work off debts or be given training in exchange for a period of unrecompensed service. The law required that all indentured servants had to be registered by the Governor or one of the Assistants, and that no period of indenture could be less than six months. Further laws forbade a master from shortening the length of time of service required for his servant, and also confirmed that any indentured servants whose period of service began in England would still be required to complete their service while in Plymouth


so if a jugdge who isnt a christians or held to your beliefs what then?

or an athiest,i'm sorry i dont buy christianity at gun point or the death chair. christianity is growing in countries that persecute us.

ie china etc,

#208 jason

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 10:28 AM

the problem here is that unless the sodomy act is seen its only G*ys that get it.

i have tried to state the fact that heteros also do sodomious acts. that isnt due process nor equal.given the history of the definition of sodomy in the past the church would agree. yet how does one in a court prove that? ya cant so it changes nothing.

if two arab muslims walked by you holding hands(they do this) you would assume sodomites! not so, in their culture that is acceptable and neither is condisered an act of sodomy. its there way of showing friendship.they do that for a few minutes, and then let go.

#209 MamaElephant

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 10:28 AM

Under the Gospel of circumcision [law] the Jews had to keep the law, do good works, produce fruit, and the list is long. And if they endured to the end and gave it their best shot, God would add a little grace and say, "Well done, good and faithful servant." God can add grace to works, but He can't add works to grace. We are saved by grace. It's a gree gift. You can't do anything to pay for it, because if you do, it is no longer a free gift.

Recall that I said that the law had only two purposes: to deter criminals. And to convict and point to Jesus Christ. But Paul teaches that once the law has fulfilled these two purposes, to get us saved, then we are no longer under the law and are not condemned by it (for salvation purposes). And Paul teaches that we are not to use the law as a guide to righteous living once we are delivered from it. If we do, we are partaking of the Tree of Knowledge and are again cursed. So what are we to use as a guide for righteous living under Paul's gospel of grace? God. We are to walk in the Spirit and we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

The law should never be used as a guide to righteousness living. If we can keep the law to some degree, we are puffed up, become self-righteous and do not need God. And if we break the law, which we always do, then the law serves up deseart--condemnation that drives us from God. (Adam and Eve hid themselves.)

So what Paul is teaching in the passages above is righteous living walking in the Spirit and not in the flesh (under the law).

Now this has nothing to do with our topic: Should God's moral law be in force today? It should because it still serves the two pruposes for which God intended: deter criminals and convict and point to Jesus. The whole unbelieving world is under God's law and condemned by it. But most are not convicted by it, because confused Christians have failed to use it as an evangelical tool.

TeeJay


You wrote that we should not be held to the same standard of conduct. Actually we Christians should be held to a higher standard.

So when you posted that Christians are not under the law, but non-christians should be this is because???? You are contradicting yourself all over the place.

And you have not answered my question as to why you are offended by God's law in Lev. 20:13?

Because I know my God and I imitate Him. Jesus has done nothing to indicate that He wishes we would apply the death penalty to sinners today. Quite the opposite. John 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
This is the precedent God has set for us. Jesus is talking to you and you refuse to listen!

no sir , the threat of the law didnt work, just look at ancient isreal, warned and warned by God and what did they do? go into capitivity. does the law save? NO. it ooesnt and wasnt meant to.



what you dont know is that men like me do repent and often need help..

so to whom we get our help from? how is it that while i was bi and acted more on the female side, no longer do i want men?on another forum a recent saved H*mos*xual who to this day has never known a woman has talked about how God is healing him and putting the desires of women in him. i told him the word alone not any man could do that. read the bible and it will happen the hs will heal thee, but its not going to be overnight and it may take years

being a bi/H*mos*xual is big thing. it takes time as God must remake the sinner. salvation as far justification is instant but not santification.



Personally, I am much more interested in the conversion of h*m*sexuals, adulterers, etc. than in their execution. I wish to have the attitude Jesus had towards the woman taken in adultery than what the pharisees wanted done to her. I would trust that at bottom line, that what Jesus did is what you and most of the readership of EFF desire.


Ikester, I'm not sure I agree with you totally. I have to read this over a bit and digest it. I think it would make an excellent separate thread: "What happened to souls before the Cross?" If you want to start it, I will respond as soon as I clear up a few things on this thread--which may be never.

This has everything to do with the topic. We no longer execute crimes against God... why? Two reasons: 1. Judgment occurs on judgment day, in the future, not now. 2. We die in the flesh when we are baptized. Therefore the death penalty is complete.


Levi, you just defeated your own argument, if you would just interpret this as it is plainly written, instead of reading into it what you want it to say. It precisely supports TeeJay and my position!!! I highly recommend you use blueletterbible.org to look up word meanings. The word used for ordinance is associated with the LAW! (link) Posted Image
[/font]
I'm now awaiting your spin of Romans 13:2, now that its been shown that your use of the verse backfired badly. Are you going to show this forum any ability to reason and learn, or are you really this convinced that you are right on every issue possible?[/size]

Yes, the law, the law of the land, as put in place by God. Colossians 1:15-17 I am not getting any sense out of your opinion of Romans 13:2.

#210 MamaElephant

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 10:34 AM

ME, Your "opinion" is 180 degrees opposite God's opinion.

I am saying the same to you! Legalism is a fall from grace. When you apply the law to others you yourself are judged by it. Do not be deceived!

ME, we can't really do what you suggest.

Okay then, we cannot do as you suggest. Now that you've admitted that I really wish you would take a break from these threads, pray and meditate on God's Word for a few days. I think we all should.

Trust in the LORD with all your heart; and lean not to your own understanding.

#211 jason

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 10:41 AM

so i take that law verse in romans 13:2 as the way they do. it makes no sense to allow freedoms of religon! god says what the punishment is for rejected him.

is a sinner evil? yup. they are under satans kingdom and also are children of wrath per

colossians

Colossians 3

1If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

2Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

3For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

4When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

5Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

6For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

7In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

8But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.

9Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

10And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

11Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

12Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

13Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

14And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

15And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.

16Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

#212 Teejay

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 01:43 PM

[quote] name='Hawkins' timestamp='1313853663' post='74417']
IMO, ultimately the purpose of God's Law is to guard the fence of His Kingdom in Heaven. God's Law provides guidance to righteousness, yet humans on earth may hardly achieve. As a result and in this sense, you may also say that in effect and in this planet earth Law doesn't act as a guidance. The big picture is, planet is not inside God's Kingdom (except for Eden at the time before Adam's fall). Planet earth is rather inside Satan's realm (not in terms of His sovereignty though), but God has never treated His influence in this earth as God still sees this is a field of harvest, harvest through Jesus Christ.
[/quote]

Hawking, I apologize for my rude comment. I've been answering too many posts on here and I got a little burned out. But that's no excuse for being rude. Please forgive me.

So you do not think that God's death penalty laws (listed in Post 12) should be in force today? Is that your position?

TeeJay

#213 Teejay

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 02:12 PM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1313861672' post='74431']
I am saying the same to you! Legalism is a fall from grace. When you apply the law to others you yourself are judged by it. Do not be deceived!Okay then, we cannot do as you suggest. Now that you've admitted that I really wish you would take a break from these threads, pray and meditate on God's Word for a few days. I think we all should.

Trust in the LORD with all your heart; and lean not to your own understanding.
[/quote]

ME, I will answer both your posts if and only if you answer the question that I can't get anyone to answer. If not God's law, then whose law? What law? No law? Watered down law? Some law? Government law? ME's law? I will answer you when you answer this question.

TeeJay

#214 Levi

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 04:51 PM

Yes, it is spin, the problem is that your claim is so remarkably dumb it causes you to contradict yourself without you even realizing it (just in case the reader is new to this thread, the reason I am so hard on Levi is not just because of his petulance, but also because he says death is not a deterrent at all, which is dumb as rocks, as my myriad of examples have proven). In the post in question, here is what you said:

This is what you wrote Fred and this is what I was addressing but you seem to side step this and attempt to wax over it by accusing me of 'spin':


...You said that eye gouging for You said that eye gouging for stealing apples would result in more stolen apples. This is unbelievably dumb....

Im sorry but I fail to see this contradiction that you keep going on about? At no time did I ever say that penalty have 0 deterrence but most importantly I DID NOT SAY that "result in more stolen apples"
I would like you ta address this point that you have made instead of trying to sidestep and accuse me of spin.

My position has always been of one that the death penalty does not stop crime, it only shifts it and in some cases will make it worse.


[/size][/font][/color][/size][/font][/color]


Do you deny you contradicted yourself above? As we have pointed out here, it is OK to occasionally admit you are wrong. It's not as hard as you think! Otherwise, why should anyone trust what you write, or take you seriously, if you can't muster the courage to admit when you've clearly been shown to be in error? This isn't something that's just a matter of opinion we can disagree on, its hard fact, common sense, that is enforced by the Bible as I will again show below (something TeeJay has already cited).



None of this proves that death is not a deterrent. Remember, to this point you've said its ZERO deterrent. All you have is your own personal opinion and worldly travels for us to rely on, instead of hard data such as I had provided.



LOL! Now you admit it does have some deterrent value, yet only for "enticing to false gods" and "bearing false witness"? My goodness, man. Whew! Care to explain why its a deterrent for these, and not for other crimes? Uh, and where does it say that lying is a capital offense? Hint - it's only a capital offense if the lie results in another man's death.

Levi, I'm anxious to see how you spin God's Word as follows, where he makes it plainly clear that death is a deterrent:

[color="#ff0000"]"So you shall put away the evil from Israel. And all the people shall hear and fear, and no longer act presumptuously." (Deut 17:12-13)


[color="#ff0000"]"Because the sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil." (Eccl 8:11)
[font="Arial"]



[font="Arial"]Levi, you just defeated your own argument, if you would just interpret this as it is plainly written, instead of reading into it what you want it to say. It precisely supports TeeJay and my position!!! I highly recommend you use blueletterbible.org to look up word meanings. The word used for ordinance is associated with the LAW! (link) Posted Image

I'm now awaiting your spin of Romans 13:2, now that its been shown that your use of the verse backfired badly. Are you going to show this forum any ability to reason and learn, or are you really this convinced that you are right on every issue possible?

My position is also that you cannot force Judaic first covenant law of the ten commandments as revealed to Moses on Mount Sinai onto people through the law of their land. This is wrong Fred and this is what Paul was talking about in Romans 13. He was addressing the issue of worldy governments.

Me has also addressed this issue with you and cited some more scripture for you to look at as well.

If You speak against the law makers and authority of a land then you HAD BETTER have the authority to do so, because the Word says that such attitude will "incur judgment"

It does not enforce your or Teejays arguments, in fact it make you both look rebellious against government that legislate for their people under the authority of God.

I would will that you consider who is impetuous in their argument and who in fact is standing in the correct position on this matter.

Deut 17:12-13

You forgot the first part:

"the person who acts arrogantly, refusing to listen either to the priest who stands there serving the LORD your God or to the judge, must die..."

lets examine

Deterrents:

Leading away to 'false gods'
bearing 'false witness'
refusing to listen to the appointed 'representative of God'

So what do you suggest, shall we all don white robes with red crosses and go out and kill every preacher of a false god, everyone with the spirit of the anti Christ and everyone who doesn't listen to us?

You should have noted by now that these deterrents are specifically in relation to the knowledge and conduct expected of Israel as a nation set aside by God, with Him as their leader.

You are mixing the Word of God with your fleshy argument and this is wrong, we are to be set aside from the world to be in it but not of it.

I will say it again: you are to be an ambassador of Christ no matter what situation you find yourself in, if the country has a death penalty then so be it, if it doesn't then so be it. You cannot bring about change of the human heart or mind by law.

I have given many examples of death not deterring peoples behavior and in fact the death penalty can in the right circumstances cause more violence.We are not called to even worry about changing such things.

Your argument is futile and is wasting of precious time, it blocks up the flow of the Spirit through peoples lives. Are you willing to give account for this distraction that you are placing in the body?

#215 Hawkins

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 05:29 PM

Hawking, I apologize for my rude comment. I've been answering too many posts on here and I got a little burned out. But that's no excuse for being rude. Please forgive me.

So you do not think that God's death penalty laws (listed in Post 12) should be in force today? Is that your position?

TeeJay


Why? Isn't the Bible tells that God doesn't want the wolves get into the fence of sheep to eat them up? Isn't in accordance of His Law that the wicked are kept outside the gate of Heaven (read Revelation about what happens when the gate is shut). This is what His Law is for, that is, guarding the fence of His Kingdom in Heaven. If you don't understand yet, I can't help that much.

#216 Hawkins

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 05:31 PM

I appreciate your opinion, it seems to be common among the brethren here. I take your comments to endorse the position that we shouldn't reference God's law in establishing our own principles for the justice system. However, this thread asks a tough question that is still not being fully addressed. What standard or basis should we use to establish our criminal justice system? That is, what should the penalty be for murder, rape, kidnapping, and what basis do you have to determine the punishment?

I realize it is obvious where TeeJay and I are going with this. Please take the following as emphasis, not shouting:Posted Image

FELLOW CHRISTIANS, LET'S CUT TO THE CHASE: YOU DO NOT HAVE A BASIS TO GO BY TO SAY WHAT THE PENALTIES SHOULD BE, OTHER THAN YOUR FALLIBLE OPINION.

You can't reference the Bible, because nowhere does Jesus overturn any of the penalties established in the OT, nor does he offer a new system of justice under the new covenant. Nowhere can such verses be found, in fact, as we have shown, there are plenty of verses where OT penal statues are supported in the NT. If you can find verses where penal statutes are overturned, I will be interested (seriously) to see them.

Personally, I've learned to not trust my opinion, at least in those cases where I can fight past the stubbornness of the flesh. If I list of things my opinion failed me on, it would take too long and exhaust the harddrive space used for this forum. I too had similar beliefs in the past on penal statues, but God is a tad smarter than me, OK, He is INFINITELY smarter than me. That is why I believe as I do regarding the excellent, and understandably controversial, question TeeJay raised.


Render what Caesers to Caeser, and God to God.

Jury system here is quite a Caeser's issue. The law system itself may historical has some connections with what is said in OT. Plus that some parts of it might be a reflection of God's Law buried in our hearts, especially regarding to the parts where how should hurting others be punished.

Justification here is within a scope of planet and with a time-frame limited a certain period of time, say, you can't apply Roman empire's Law to today's human society. God's Law however is universal and permanent. What I am trying to say is that, don't take it lightly to think that God's Law only applies to planet earth. The same Law could well be applicable to angels or other freewill might have existed, existing or will exist.

Moreover, it is easy to mix things up. God's Law, Mosaic Law, God's Law in our hearts, Covenants, well they are of distinguishable concepts there. I will be able to discuss those concepts with you if the you can keep the atmosphere right. If you decide to keep your atitude hostle, so be it.

#217 chipwag64

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 05:34 PM

Weren't Moses and Saul/Paul and King David murderers and accessories to murder?..not only did God not have them executed,having full knowledge of what they did, but He used them to guide His own people.

#218 Teejay

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 05:57 PM

[quote] name='chipwag64' timestamp='1313886840' post='74451']
Weren't Moses and Saul/Paul and King David murderers and accessories to murder?..not only did God not have them executed,having full knowledge of what they did, but He used them to guide His own people.
[/quote]

Chip, you raised a good point. I will address it. All authority rests with God. But God has delegated SOME of His authority. He's granted authorityto governments to punish criminals. He's delegated authority to parents to spank their children. He's granted authority to individuals to use deadly force to protect his own life and the life of others. And so on.

But any authority that God has not granted to us, we do not have. For example, God forbid earthly judges to show mercy (Num. 35:31; Deut. 19:13, 21; Pro. 6:30-31). The reason for this is that when a murderer kills someone, he can be forgiven only by his victim (and God of course). His victim is dead, and the judge can't forgive another person's debt. If I owe you $1,000, a third person can't forgive me the debt I owe you. Only you can forgive the debt. No one else has standing to forgive the debt. This is why bankruptcy laws are unGodly.

Now understand, while we do not have authority to commute death sentences, God does. God can commute a death penalty because He has retained that authority for Himself. And when God does this, He never rescinds His law. He forgave King David, but His law against adultery and murder was not null and void.

TeeJay

#219 MamaElephant

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 06:57 AM

ME, I will answer both your posts if and only if you answer the question that I can't get anyone to answer. If not God's law, then whose law? What law? No law? Watered down law? Some law? Government law? ME's law? I will answer you when you answer this question.

First of all this seems to be a political topic rather than a biblical one, but I will give the answer that comes to mind.

God's law as revealed through Jesus under the New Covenant. Matthew 7:1, 12; John 13:34-35; Mark 12:31; Galatians 6:10

Mark 12:31 shows us that our laws should be based on these principles. Would not it be wonderful if all obeyed Jesus?

#220 Fred Williams

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 07:01 AM

Render what Caesers to Caeser, and God to God.

Jury system here is quite a Caeser's issue. The law system itself may historical has some connections with what is said in OT. Plus that some parts of it might be a reflection of God's Law buried in our hearts, especially regarding to the parts where how should hurting others be punished.

Justification here is within a scope of planet and with a time-frame limited a certain period of time, say, you can't apply Roman empire's Law to today's human society. God's Law however is universal and permanent. What I am trying to say is that, don't take it lightly to think that God's Law only applies to planet earth. The same Law could well be applicable to angels or other freewill might have existed, existing or will exist.

Moreover, it is easy to mix things up. God's Law, Mosaic Law, God's Law in our hearts, Covenants, well they are of distinguishable concepts there. I will be able to discuss those concepts with you if the you can keep the atmosphere right. If you decide to keep your atitude hostle, so be it.


Hawkins, I definitely did not mean to give a hostile attitude toward anyone other than Levi, who I believe needed someone to use direct and harsh language against him for his behavior (I know other mods who would have already booted him off the board). I would love to hear you share your view with the rest of the forum, its why I said I would "seriously" like to hear examples that can be used to support whatever penal system you would advocate. My apologies if you felt any hostility directed to your post. You happened to pop in as yet another opponent to my and TeeJay's view without answering the question we have asked half a dozen times, which is, what basis do you have to support a penal system counter to what was proposed in the OP. Thanks... Fred




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