Jump to content


Photo

For Whom Was God's Law Intended, Israel Only Or The World?


  • Please log in to reply
249 replies to this topic

#221 Fred Williams

Fred Williams

    Administrator / Forum Owner

  • Admin Team
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,536 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Broomfield, Colorado
  • Interests:I enjoy going to Broncos games, my son's HS basketball & baseball games, and my daughter's piano & dance recitals. I enjoy playing basketball (when able). I occasionally play keyboards for my church's praise team. I am a Senior Staff Firmware Engineer at Micron, and am co-host of Pseudo Science Radio.
  • Age: 53
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Broomfield, Colorado

Posted 21 August 2011 - 07:23 AM

Im sorry but I fail to see this contradiction that you keep going on about? At no time did I ever say that penalty have 0 deterrence but most importantly I DID NOT SAY that "result in more stolen apples"
I would like you ta address this point that you have made instead of trying to sidestep and accuse me of spin.

My position has always been of one that the death penalty does not stop crime, it only shifts it and in some cases will make it worse.

My position is also that you cannot force Judaic first covenant law of the ten commandments as revealed to Moses on Mount Sinai onto people through the law of their land. This is wrong Fred and this is what Paul was talking about in Romans 13. He was addressing the issue of worldy governments.

Me has also addressed this issue with you and cited some more scripture for you to look at as well.

If You speak against the law makers and authority of a land then you HAD BETTER have the authority to do so, because the Word says that such attitude will "incur judgment"

It does not enforce your or Teejays arguments, in fact it make you both look rebellious against government that legislate for their people under the authority of God.

I would will that you consider who is impetuous in their argument and who in fact is standing in the correct position on this matter.

Deut 17:12-13

You forgot the first part:

"the person who acts arrogantly, refusing to listen either to the priest who stands there serving the LORD your God or to the judge, must die..."

lets examine

Deterrents:

Leading away to 'false gods'
bearing 'false witness'
refusing to listen to the appointed 'representative of God'

So what do you suggest, shall we all don white robes with red crosses and go out and kill every preacher of a false god, everyone with the spirit of the anti Christ and everyone who doesn't listen to us?

You should have noted by now that these deterrents are specifically in relation to the knowledge and conduct expected of Israel as a nation set aside by God, with Him as their leader.

You are mixing the Word of God with your fleshy argument and this is wrong, we are to be set aside from the world to be in it but not of it.

I will say it again: you are to be an ambassador of Christ no matter what situation you find yourself in, if the country has a death penalty then so be it, if it doesn't then so be it. You cannot bring about change of the human heart or mind by law.

I have given many examples of death not deterring peoples behavior and in fact the death penalty can in the right circumstances cause more violence.We are not called to even worry about changing such things.

Your argument is futile and is wasting of precious time, it blocks up the flow of the Spirit through peoples lives. Are you willing to give account for this distraction that you are placing in the body?


Levi, I'm not going to go round and round with you on your contradictory statements, I've proven my case with direct, in-context quotes from you, and you obviously have little ability to admit when you are wrong, and have a spirit that seems hardened against learning, which unfortunately means you'll let yourself go through life teaching error. Instead of addressing scripture provided you, you offer some opinion that leashes a strawman or some other false caricature, or you make hypocritical accusations (relying on opinion is "weak", we are dishonest, we are arrogant, etc), and when you do offer scripture, its poor exegesis. For example, you said "You cannot bring about change of the human heart or mind by law". This runs counter to much scripture, such as:

Psalms 19:7 - The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul

Since the OT doesn't seem to exist in your Bible, just in case here is a NT reference:

Gal 3:24 - Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

These are yet more scripture that based on your past behavior you will refuse to address. I've been awfully patient (and stern) with you. Do you have any willingness at all to "reason together", or is your next post going to be more of the same?

Fred

#222 Fred Williams

Fred Williams

    Administrator / Forum Owner

  • Admin Team
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,536 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Broomfield, Colorado
  • Interests:I enjoy going to Broncos games, my son's HS basketball & baseball games, and my daughter's piano & dance recitals. I enjoy playing basketball (when able). I occasionally play keyboards for my church's praise team. I am a Senior Staff Firmware Engineer at Micron, and am co-host of Pseudo Science Radio.
  • Age: 53
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Broomfield, Colorado

Posted 21 August 2011 - 07:35 AM

First of all this seems to be a political topic rather than a biblical one, but I will give the answer that comes to mind.

God's law as revealed through Jesus under the New Covenant. Matthew 7:1, 12; John 13:34-35; Mark 12:31; Galatians 6:10

Mark 12:31 shows us that our laws should be based on these principles. Would not it be wonderful if all obeyed Jesus?


OK, so imagine some sort of catastrophic event leaves you in a society that needs to start over and elects you to a panel to decide the justice system. The first two penalties you decide to discuss are murder, and rape. The panel gets to you and asks your opinion. You are on the spot and they are looking at you with pleading, desperate eyes in search of a grounded decision.They ask "What do you think the penalty for murder should be? What should the penalty be for rape?" Please let us know how you would answer these questions, and how the above verses you cited help you reach your decision. Thanks...

Fred
PS. Regarding Matt 7:1, please consider the thread on "Cliche #1: Thou Shalt Not Judge".

#223 MamaElephant

MamaElephant

    former JW

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,564 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Interests:Bible, Home-schooling, Education, Fitness, Young Earth Science, Evolution, Natural Medicine, Board Games, Video Games, Study of cult mind control and Counseling for those coming out of cult mind control.
  • Age: 35
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • I am His! 1/29/12

Posted 21 August 2011 - 10:05 AM

Matt 7:1, please consider the thread on "Cliche #1: Thou Shalt Not Judge".

I feel that you are presuming that I have not already considered the post. I did not quote a cliche did I? No. I cited the location of the words of my Lord.

OK, so imagine some sort of catastrophic event leaves you in a society that needs to start over and elects you to a panel to decide the justice system. The first two penalties you decide to discuss are murder, and rape. The panel gets to you and asks your opinion. You are on the spot and they are looking at you with pleading, desperate eyes in search of a grounded decision.They ask "What do you think the penalty for murder should be? What should the penalty be for rape?" Please let us know how you would answer these questions, and how the above verses you cited help you reach your decision. Thanks...

Well, first off you have to realize that this is not a Bible question, but a political one. Nevertheless, I will give my answer: God has given us principles and example. It is these that I would consult in making those decisions.

Secondly, you have to realize that we are no longer under law, You can look at the scriptures in my last post to support that, along with these:

Ephesians 5:1 Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children

Galatians 3:25 And now that the way of faith has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian.

1 Corinthians 9:20 To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.

Galatians 3:23 23 Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed.


Galatians 4:21 21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.

24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.

28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now.


But I am not condemning anyone, for Christ's brothers have fallen into this deception before, and they were readjusted with love. Galatians 5

#224 Fred Williams

Fred Williams

    Administrator / Forum Owner

  • Admin Team
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,536 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Broomfield, Colorado
  • Interests:I enjoy going to Broncos games, my son's HS basketball & baseball games, and my daughter's piano & dance recitals. I enjoy playing basketball (when able). I occasionally play keyboards for my church's praise team. I am a Senior Staff Firmware Engineer at Micron, and am co-host of Pseudo Science Radio.
  • Age: 53
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Broomfield, Colorado

Posted 21 August 2011 - 10:33 AM

I feel that you are presuming that I have not already considered the post. I did not quote a cliche did I? No. I cited the location of the words of my Lord.

Well, first off you have to realize that this is not a Bible question, but a political one. Nevertheless, I will give my answer: God has given us principles and example. It is these that I would consult in making those decisions.

Secondly, you have to realize that we are no longer under law, You can look at the scriptures in my last post to support that, along with these:

Ephesians 5:1 Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children

Galatians 3:25 And now that the way of faith has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian.

1 Corinthians 9:20 To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.

Galatians 3:23 23 Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed.


Galatians 4:21 21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.

24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.

28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now.


But I am not condemning anyone, for Christ's brothers have fallen into this deception before, and they were readjusted with love. Galatians 5


I agree with all the verses you provided that show we are no longer under the law, but I think you are misunderstanding the two words I emphasized:

1) Who the we are - the we are believers in Christ. The we does not include unbelievers, they are still under the law. I'll let Paul explain: :)


Romans 3:19 & 31: "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God... Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not!"

Also see 1 Tim 1:8-10


2) What the law pertains to. The law pertains to our salvation. As believers, we are no longer condemned by the law. We are not required to keep the law to earn or keep, our salvation. However, we are still subjugated by the governing authorities to be punished in the flesh for violating the law
. Again, Paul takes it from here:

Romans 13:4 - For [the governing authority] is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.


I would still like you to answer the question, as an appointed authority to decide the penal statutes, what penalty would you recommend for murder (let's make it 1st degree murder), and for rape.


Fred

#225 MamaElephant

MamaElephant

    former JW

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,564 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Interests:Bible, Home-schooling, Education, Fitness, Young Earth Science, Evolution, Natural Medicine, Board Games, Video Games, Study of cult mind control and Counseling for those coming out of cult mind control.
  • Age: 35
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • I am His! 1/29/12

Posted 21 August 2011 - 10:40 AM

Aha! Got it. We no longer need a tutor leading to Christ (the law) but the unbelievers do.

I will need time to think and pray about the rest.

#226 jason

jason

    Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 662 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Age: 38
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • florida

Posted 21 August 2011 - 10:45 AM

funny that you should mention that

psalm verse, if i as a jew should then go back to the law because the law converts? really?man the cross doesnt apply.


uh, i went to a church last night that i havent visited in a while, that pastor preached two weeks on h*m*s*xuality.

the local paper had letters that called him and the church bigots. they have 6 teens that struggle with being g*y. 4 of them repented and decided not to pursue that relationship but let God reign in their hearts.

no law of america did that but the laws written in the bible with the power of the hs did convict them and lead them to this godly sorrow.

teejay reccomends the sbc(souther baptist convention) to me.

heres a quip from their seminary proffesor albert morley


from the wall street journal printed july 1, 2011

The Christian church has faced no shortage of challenges in its 2,000-year history. But now it's facing a challenge that is shaking its foundations: h*m*s*xuality.

To many onlookers, this seems strange or even tragic. Why can't Christians just join the revolution?

And make no mistake, it is a moral revolution. As philosopher Kwame Anthony Appiah of Princeton University demonstrated in his recent book, "The Honor Code," moral revolutions generally happen over a long period of time. But this is hardly the case with the shift we've witnessed on the question of h*m*s*xuality.

In less than a single generation, h*m*s*xuality has gone from something almost universally understood to be sinful, to something now declared to be the moral equivalent of heterosexuality—and deserving of both legal protection and public encouragement. Theo Hobson, a British theologian, has argued that this is not just the waning of a taboo. Instead, it is a moral inversion that has left those holding the old morality now accused of nothing less than "moral deficiency."

The liberal churches and denominations have an easy way out of this predicament. They simply accommodate themselves to the new moral reality. By now the pattern is clear: These churches debate the issue, with conservatives arguing to retain the older morality and liberals arguing that the church must adapt to the new one. Eventually, the liberals win and the conservatives lose. Next, the denomination ordains openly g*y candidates or decides to bless same-s@x unions.

This is a route that evangelical Christians committed to the full authority of the Bible cannot take. Since we believe that the Bible is God's revealed word, we cannot accommodate ourselves to this new morality. We cannot pretend as if we do not know that the Bible clearly teaches that all H*mos*xual acts are sinful, as is all human S@xual behavior outside the covenant of marriage. We believe that God has revealed a pattern for human sexuality that not only points the way to holiness, but to true happiness.



Getty Images/Comstock Images.

Thus we cannot accept the seductive arguments that the liberal churches so readily adopt. The fact that same-s@x marriage is a now a legal reality in several states means that we must further stipulate that we are bound by scripture to define marriage as the union of one man and one woman—and nothing else.

We do so knowing that most Americans once shared the same moral assumptions, but that a new world is coming fast. We do not have to read the polls and surveys; all we need to do is to talk to our neighbors or listen to the cultural chatter.

In this most awkward cultural predicament, evangelicals must be excruciatingly clear that we do not speak about the sinfulness of h*m*s*xuality as if we have no sin. As a matter of fact, it is precisely because we have come to know ourselves as sinners and of our need for a savior that we have come to faith in Jesus Christ. Our greatest fear is not that h*m*s*xuality will be normalized and accepted, but that h*m*sexuals will not come to know of their own need for Christ and the forgiveness of their sins.

This is not a concern that is easily expressed in sound bites. But it is what we truly believe.

It is now abundantly clear that evangelicals have failed in so many ways to meet this challenge. We have often spoken about h*m*s*xuality in ways that are crude and simplistic. We have failed to take account of how tenaciously sexuality comes to define us as human beings. We have failed to see the challenge of h*m*s*xuality as a Gospel issue. We are the ones, after all, who are supposed to know that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only remedy for sin, starting with our own.

We have demonstrated our own form of homophobia—not in the way that activists have used that word, but in the sense that we have been afraid to face this issue where it is most difficult . . . face to face.

My hope is that evangelicals are ready now to take on this challenge in a new and more faithful way. We really have no choice, for we are talking about our own brothers and sisters, our own friends and neighbors, or maybe the young person in the next pew.

There is no escaping the fact that we are living in the midst of a moral revolution. And yet, it is not the world around us that is being tested, so much as the believing church. We are about to find out just how much we believe the Gospel we so eagerly preach.

Rev. Mohler is the president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Ky.

#227 Teejay

Teejay

    Veteran Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,583 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Age: 78
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Texas

Posted 21 August 2011 - 10:53 AM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1313935036' post='74462']
First of all this seems to be a political topic rather than a biblical one, but I will give the answer that comes to mind.

God's law as revealed through Jesus under the New Covenant. Matthew 7:1, 12; John 13:34-35; Mark 12:31; Galatians 6:10

Mark 12:31 shows us that our laws should be based on these principles. Would not it be wonderful if all obeyed Jesus?
[/quote]

Jason, Before I answer ME here, I will not answer you until you present your version of the moral law we should enact--since you do not agree with God's. Now I will examine ME's version of moral laws and see if they agree with God?

ME, I will post your Scripture reference you cited above (I'm using the NKJ):

"Judge not that you be not judged" (Mat. 7:1). If you quote that one verse by itself, you are asserting that the reason you don't want to judge is because you don't want to be judged. In other words, you're making a deal with your neighbor: "If you promise not to judge me, I promise not to judge you. And, as Rodney King said, "Can't we just all get along?" If you don't judge, you, as a Christian, can't rebuke, forgive, or witness. You have taken yourself out of the battle.

"And the second, like it, is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these" (Mark 12:31). What's wrong here, ME, is that you are showing love to the rapist instead of the victim he raped. In when you defend the rapist, you are not really loving him. You should hate the rapist and love his victim. Otherwise your love is with "hypocracy." And you are profaning God by "keeping those alive who should not live."

"A new commandment I give you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are My disciples. If you have love for one another" (John 13:34-35). Again, applying this to your position, you, as a judge, would say to H*mos*xual, murderer, cannibal Jeffrey Dahnmer: "If I ever committed the crimes that you have, I sure would not want anyone putting me to death. Therefore, applying Jesus' Golden Rule, I am releasing you to society: Go and sin no more: Do not murder, sodomize, or eat your brother.

"Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets" (Mat. 7:12). Applying the Golden Rule to your position, that no one should be put to death, you would be saying to your neighbor: I know I committed murder, but if you do not put me to death, I will not put you to death if you commit a crime worthy of the death penalty."

Then you wrote "wouldn't it be wonderful if we all obeyed Jesus?" Well let's see if you're obeying Jesus:

Does the New Testament support the death penalty? Answer: Jesus, Paul, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, thief on the Cross, Acts, Hebrews, Revelation, and even an angel--all support the death penalty. Everybody but ME supports the death penalty.

The Apostle Paul did not object to execution. He knew and defended his rights as a Roman citizen. Yet, while on trial, he volunteered an endorsement of capital punishment to the Governor of Caesarea:

“For if I [Paul] am an offender, or have committed anything deserving of death, I do not object to dying….” Acts 25:11

God said, “Vengeance is Mine” showing that vengeance is inherently good. Individuals are not to avenge themselves, but must allow God to avenge in His way:

Repay no one evil for evil. …do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, ‘Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. Paul, Rom. 12:17, 19

Paul instructs us not to seek our own revenge, but to “give place to wrath.” Paul then explains that the proper channel for wrath is the “governing authorities.” The place for wrath is government:

Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities… For rulers are not a terror to good works but to evil. Paul, Rom. 13:1, 3

Godly rulers are a terror to evildoers. God commands earthly government to execute criminals with the sword:

For [the governing authority] is God’s minister… But if you do evil, be afraid; for he [government authority] does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. Paul, Rom 13:4

A sword does not flog. It beheads. Paul instructs believers to “not avenge themselves, “but rather give place to wrath.” Governments are the place for wrath for they are “God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath.”

The author of the book of Hebrews also supports the death penalty. The certainty of an earthly punishment under the Mosaic Law indicates the sureness of an eternal punishment for those who reject Jesus Christ:

Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies [present tense] without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot…. Hebrews 10:28-29

Execution teaches men of the certainty of God’s eternal punishment. When governments neglect the death penalty, people scoff at the second death. The New Testament reinforces Old Testament support for the death penalty:

Be afraid of the sword for yourselves; for wrath brings the punishment of the sword, that you may know there is judgment. Job. 19:29

The righteous shall rejoice when he sees the vengeance…. So that men will say, “…Surely He is God who judges in the earth.” Psalm 58:10-11

“Will you profane Me [asks the Lord] killing people who should not die [babies in the womb], and keeping people alive who should not live [Tookie Williams, Karla Faye Tucker, Scott Peterson, abortionists, kidnappers, h*m*sexuals, etc.]…?” God, Ezekiel 13:19

Jesus Affirmed the Death Penalty

Jesus affirmed the Mosaic Law and He blasted the Pharisees [and today’s Pope] for opposing God’s commands:

“Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? For God commanded saying… ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ But you say….” Jesus, Matthew 15:3-5; Mark 7:8-11

Jesus here did not shrink from even this harsh, symbolic statute which His Father had given to Israel to illustrate the eternal death deserved by those who cursed their heavenly Father. But while there has since been “a change of the symbolic law” (Heb. 7:12), quoting Jesus on this shows that He did not oppose the death penalty concerning moral law.

The Two Thieves on the Cross

One of the two thieves that were crucified next to Jesus agreed with Him and endorsed the death penalty: “Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him saying, ‘If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.’ But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, ‘Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong’” (Luke 23:39-41). This thief not only endorsed God’s death penalty, but he repented and Jesus assured him that “this day you will be with Me in Paradise [Abraham’s bosom]” (Luke 23:43). These two thieves were not only criminals who stole, but the Greek word used to describe them was a criminal who not only stole but murdered their victims. They were criminals deserving of the death penalty.

Angels in heaven agree with just execution:

And I heard the angel… saying: “O Lord… You have judged these things. For they have shed the blood of saints… and You have given them blood to drink. For it is their just due.” An Angel, Revelation 16:5-6

God’s Two Witnesses in Revelation Will Carry Out Execution

God will equip the two witnesses in Revelation to execute those trying to harm them.

And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed… Revelation 11:5

If You Live by the Sword, You Die by the Sword

Revelation penman, the Apostle John, also taught that you reap what you sow:

…he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. John, Revelation 13:10

ME, please do not simply "react" this post of mine. I know that what Fred and I are teaching here is 180 degrees from what you have been taught that is simply not true. It's not so much what we don't know but what we think we know that is not true. So please take some time and read and digest and pray a bit.

I notice that when people like Levi, who are totally off kilter, post you immediately come back with, "Good point, Levi. I never thought of that." But it seems that anything I post offends you. But I am not giving you my opinion.

Apart from God, there can be no truth. To reach truth, we must think rationally and use God's law of logic. Apart from God, there is only the material world, and laws of logic and rational thought are not physical. So to think rationally and use laws of logic, God must exist. Without God, truh can only be reached by accident and then you can't know that it's true apart from God.

Just as truth can't be contradictory, in that two contradictions can't both be true and false at the same time and in the same way, so too, something can't be both moral and immoral at the same time and in the same way. No morality can exist without God. Without God, we would only have relative morality. ME thinks homos are good people who must be loved and forgiven (even though they are unrepentant). TeeJay thinks just the opposite. But who's right and who's wrong if God is out of the picture. No one. All morals are relative. But relativism defeats itself. The man who says, "All truth is relative." And I could simply ask: "Is that absolutely true?" Because if his statement is true, then his original statement is false.

Now what it comes down to, ME, is since you don't accept God as a Moral Prescriber, then what are you left with? You can prescribe no law. But God already tried this from Cain to Noah. It was an absolute disaster. The French in the French Revolution tried it. It did not work. You can try ME's law. But then all law become subjective and relative. Or you can obey God and accept His law. Those are the only three choices you have. Now you can get angry an TeeJay the messenger, but this will not free you from the horns of your dilemma.

So, I showed above that you have not yet answered: If not God's law, then what, whose, no law, what?

TeeJay

#228 jason

jason

    Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 662 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Age: 38
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • florida

Posted 21 August 2011 - 11:04 AM

no, teejay, god's given to the law tells you what is wrong it doesnt give you the desire to repent.

if we are going to do that way then do if fully like the puritians did.

NO freedom of religion(did jesus say that is ok and not worthy of death when you refuse him)

if you think that God changed that,think agian. God lets us choose him or death but we face the consequences of such decisions.

deutermony 30

15See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

16In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

17But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;

18I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

19I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live


NO THEN WHY DOESNT THE CONTRARGUMENT GET THIS. the very first amendment is agaisnt God's laws? does God really allow us to deny him and ignore him and not judge for that?

yes he does judge men but wants them to repent. oh i get it. grace for certain sins.

and not others. limited grace today? really thats where in the bible?

#229 Teejay

Teejay

    Veteran Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,583 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Age: 78
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Texas

Posted 21 August 2011 - 11:39 AM

no, teejay, god's given to the law tells you what is wrong it doesnt give you the desire to repent.

if we are going to do that way then do if fully like the puritians did.

NO freedom of religion(did jesus say that is ok and not worthy of death when you refuse him)

if you think that God changed that,think agian. God lets us choose him or death but we face the consequences of such decisions.

deutermony 30

15See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

16In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

17But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;

18I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

19I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live


NO THEN WHY DOESNT THE CONTRARGUMENT GET THIS. the very first amendment is agaisnt God's laws? does God really allow us to deny him and ignore him and not judge for that?

yes he does judge men but wants them to repent. oh i get it. grace for certain sins.

and not others. limited grace today? really thats where in the bible?


Jason, You are all over the map and I don't have time to address all your "what if" or "what about that" questions. You don't think God's law should be in effect. Then, whatlaw?, whose law? no law? I will not dialogue with you until you answer this question.

TeeJay

TeeJay

#230 jason

jason

    Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 662 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Age: 38
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • florida

Posted 21 August 2011 - 11:59 AM

because its all the law or nothing, no well its death for all those things

listed in the bible. per the torah and tanakh. no rights of freedom of speech, religion

curse god you die
athiests you die
muslims and others you die.only converts to christ live
that is the law i espouse when you can agree to that then you fully get what the law was. did God say that to the isrealites,yes he did. they didnt tolerate witches in open?denied God and or served God you die.

whats wrong with that?

oh yeah it doesnt work no did it. where is isreal of old? dust heap and the peoples live but not all in the land. whom did the calling of God go to the gentiles in general as the blindness is still on isreal.

until you and fred espouse a christians for christian only state of america then you cant say that all laws should be based on God's laws as he called those things for sin.

serve baal and lived in the days of the torah and in isreal you died if the kings were righteous. dont you see that you cant even live up to that? no man can


i am for death to pedophiles if they are either G*ys or straight, and yes heteros do assault girls. funny you didnt mention that.

that is why i have a problem for you:

if 20 christians vote for your cause and the 80 of the others agaisnt what happens? zilch. the sinners dont change the laws stay the same. new flash we are in the minority in america. most persons claim christ but really arent,so unless you can make them all christians then you havent the chance to change them

even if you do, whats to stop the other sinners from changing the laws back? nothing. with a vote we can take a right or give a right. if we base that on God then the rights must never change. therefore to ban those things would take a constitutional ammendment and also denying the right to vote by the sinners

this is the weakness of our form of goverment. government by the people, the people choose sin over God.

good luck changing that.you havent even attempted to change that.that is why i state what ifs and you fail to see that isnt a what if but what will happen. havent you learned from the probition, the people want alcohol despite how bad that is for them. its going to be the same with other things. i am not saying we should just gave in but its a time to change tactics.

read what the baptists say. that is my position on that matter.

you cant even convince us that we should vote your way. dont you get the problem? i vote agaisnt g*y rights every time but i also know if they repent they wont be any marriages etc. etc.

#231 Air-run

Air-run

    Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 102 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Creation, Evolution, The Bible, Theology, Art, Video Games
  • Age: 34
  • Christian
  • Creationist
  • Seattle, Washington

Posted 21 August 2011 - 05:36 PM

FELLOW CHRISTIANS, LET'S CUT TO THE CHASE: YOU DO NOT HAVE A BASIS TO GO BY TO SAY WHAT THE PENALTIES SHOULD BE, OTHER THAN YOUR FALLIBLE OPINION.

And Teejay said: "If you don't have God's law with prescribed punishments, then whose law?"


It seems like Teejay is implying that if we don't believe that immediate death penalties should be put in effect for violations of the law then we are saying that God's law is not for today.

Teejay goes on to say things like "If we're not under the moral laws, what basis do we have to convict sinners?"

I think there is a middle ground that seems to be overlooked. Yes, we are under God's law. It is the source for judging us. Yes, the penalty is death. The question is whether or not the death should be immediate or if it occurs at the final judgement - as in eternal separation from God.


You can't reference the Bible, because nowhere does Jesus overturn any of the penalties established in the OT, nor does he offer a new system of justice under the new covenant. Nowhere can such verses be found, in fact, as we have shown, there are plenty of verses where OT penal statues are supported in the NT. If you can find verses where penal statutes are overturned, I will be interested (seriously) to see them.

Yes, it is good to have God's law inspiring our criminal justice system. The law points to what is truly right and wrong. But, if we don't institute the immediate punishments of the law, does that mean we are neglecting the law?

In fact, Jesus ups the ante.
He takes the OT regulations even further and warns of an even greater punishment. Jesus didn't lessen the regulations/punishments of the law - he increased them. Jesus says that being angry at someone is the same as murder (Matt 5:21-26). By this standard, whoever of you has been angry at his brother is guilty of the death penalty. Anyone want to turn themselves in for murder??

Jesus also warns of a punishment greater than the electric chair. It is the final judgement that people really need to be worried about. "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matt 10:28)

The greater regulations take precedence over the OT regulations - and the greater judgement takes precedence over the OT judgements. That's the main point I'm trying to make.


As far as NT scripture that uphold the death penalty - you are correct - NT scriptures uphold the death penalty, but not the OT practice of stoning. The OT death penalty (like much of the OT law) was a SHADOW of what was to come. The greater reality is that of eternal spiritual death and separation - which the NT of course affirms as the penalty for sin.

As I said, Rom. 2:29-32 is not supportive of a penal system of death for this sins listed - it points to the greater judgement that God will enforce at the end judgement.

When Paul lists sins in I Cor 6:9-10 and Galatians 5:19-21 - sins that include h*m*s*xuality - he doesn't warn of the penal death penalty for those who commit these acts (should be a light bulb going off here), but he warns that those who live like that won't inherit the Kingdom of God.
That is the true and ultimate punishment that overshadows any temporal punishment. We can pass laws that discourage blatant behaviors like murder and rape - but those are not the heart issues that send people to hell. Maybe those laws do eliminate murder - but does that mean society is in a better place with God? Most likely not. On the contrary, you'll probably have people who think they are ok (I've never murdered or stole anything...) and never seek God's forgiveness. You might clean society up, but you won't keep people out of hell - and that is the real punishment we should be concerned with.

Once again, Rom. 4:4-5 says "Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed."

I take three relevant thoughts from this

1.) God is currently showing forebearance towards unrighteous behavior - overlooking it in the sense of not dishing out immediate punishment
2.) God's patience is for the purpose of leading people to repentance.
3.) Wrath is not being immediately dished out - but is being STORED UP for the final day of judgement.


I think this is a good analogy: Say you have a good kid and bad kid sitting in a room for a couple hours. There is a cup of candy in the room, and punishment if either kid takes the candy. The good kid could slap the hand of the bad kid each time he takes some candy - warning him that it is wrong. Maybe the good kid does this, and maybe the bad kid still tunes it out. The good kid says "I'm not going to slap your hand anymore, but be warned that when our parents get back, you are going to be in REALLY BIG TROUBLE." That is the true deterrent for bad behavior today. You might get fined, or even go to jail for a while - but when the Father comes, if you haven't repented and put the candy back, you are going to be in REALLY BIG TROUBLE.

#232 MamaElephant

MamaElephant

    former JW

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,564 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Interests:Bible, Home-schooling, Education, Fitness, Young Earth Science, Evolution, Natural Medicine, Board Games, Video Games, Study of cult mind control and Counseling for those coming out of cult mind control.
  • Age: 35
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • I am His! 1/29/12

Posted 21 August 2011 - 06:57 PM

We have established the answer to the OP. Moses' Law applies to the unsaved as a tutor to Christ.

Okay. I know a lot of unsaved people. I am sure you do too. Let's gather them all up, put them in jail on death row, read them some scriptures to show them why. Then they will all accept Jesus all the sooner, and if not, the world will be a better place. Right?

ME, we can't really do what you suggest. God can't do it either. Our God is a just God. If He did what you suggest, then He would not be just and sin would enter the Godhead and God would come undone. Here' why.

Teejay has admitted that we cannot apply the penalties of the Mosaic Law in order to cause the unsaved to repent.

I agree with all the verses you provided that show we are no longer under the law, but I think you are misunderstanding the two words I emphasized:

1) Who the we are - the we are believers in Christ. The we does not include unbelievers, they are still under the law. I'll let Paul explain: :)


Romans 3:19 & 31: "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God... Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not!"

Also see 1 Tim 1:8-10


2) What the law pertains to. The law pertains to our salvation. As believers, we are no longer condemned by the law. We are not required to keep the law to earn or keep, our salvation. However, we are still subjugated by the governing authorities to be punished in the flesh for violating the law
. Again, Paul takes it from here:

Romans 13:4 - For [the governing authority] is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.


I would still like you to answer the question, as an appointed authority to decide the penal statutes, what penalty would you recommend for murder (let's make it 1st degree murder), and for rape.


Fred

Fred agrees that there are two issues in this thread. We have addressed the first. To whom does the Mosaic Law apply and to what purpose?

The second issue is that the government must have laws and we must obey and be penalized under them. So what law should we use to this purpose?

ME, No more. You don't like God's system. Please present yours.

No sir... YOU don't like God's system, and I will tell you why.

When Jesus had the opportunity to support carrying out the punishment under the Mosaic Law He did just the opposite. He also had the opportunity to change Roman (and certainly other) law and did not.

The penalties of the Mosaic law were not carried out upon countless pagan people who lived out their entire lives disobeying God's laws and died an old age in their pagan countries. So we can see that God does not require the Mosaic Law penalties to apply to all in the past.

In Bible times, the Mosaic Law was given to Israel. The Israelites were expected to obey and be penalized under that Law. Why? because they knew God. John 4:22 But today if someone knows God then they are saved. We have established that the Law does not apply to the saved.

So we see that God did not apply the penalties of the Law to the people who didn't know Him, and neither does He apply the penalties of the Law to the people who do know Him. I ask you then, to whom do the penalties of the Mosaic Law apply?

FELLOW CHRISTIANS, LET'S CUT TO THE CHASE: YOU DO NOT HAVE A BASIS TO GO BY TO SAY WHAT THE PENALTIES SHOULD BE, OTHER THAN YOUR FALLIBLE OPINION.

And it will remain that way, as long as God wishes, until He establishes His kingdom.

If it were up to me to make the law and the penalty I would base them on the principles set forth in the scriptures, for that is what I think Jesus was pointing out at Matthew 5 starting at verse 21 and Mark 12:30-31. If you carry out the letter of the Law but ignore the principles that the Law is based on you are missing the boat.

#233 Fred Williams

Fred Williams

    Administrator / Forum Owner

  • Admin Team
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,536 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Broomfield, Colorado
  • Interests:I enjoy going to Broncos games, my son's HS basketball & baseball games, and my daughter's piano & dance recitals. I enjoy playing basketball (when able). I occasionally play keyboards for my church's praise team. I am a Senior Staff Firmware Engineer at Micron, and am co-host of Pseudo Science Radio.
  • Age: 53
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Broomfield, Colorado

Posted 21 August 2011 - 10:12 PM

I've temporarily closed this topic to give time to allow cooler heads to prevail, and give us time to figure out how to let it proceed. Aside from some rampant misrepresentation, false allegations and pointless chatter, I think its a great discussion. Posted Image

Before opening the thread, here are some forum rules/guidelines violated in this thread to remind everyone of:

1) POINTLESS CHATTER and NEEDLESS REPETITION - No more posts where all that is said is: "way to go, I agree, yahoo". we will delete these the second we spot them,so you'l just be wasting your time (instead of ours).

2) False allegations of lying, espousing hate, etc. - Without reasonable evidence, I simply won't tolerate Christians falsely accusing other Christians of these.

We generally tend to allow provocative and confrontational dialogue, but only to a point.

Fred

#234 Fred Williams

Fred Williams

    Administrator / Forum Owner

  • Admin Team
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,536 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Broomfield, Colorado
  • Interests:I enjoy going to Broncos games, my son's HS basketball & baseball games, and my daughter's piano & dance recitals. I enjoy playing basketball (when able). I occasionally play keyboards for my church's praise team. I am a Senior Staff Firmware Engineer at Micron, and am co-host of Pseudo Science Radio.
  • Age: 53
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Broomfield, Colorado

Posted 22 August 2011 - 11:18 AM

OK, I'm re-opening the thread, with a little heavier hand of moderation to keep a better flow.

Please read carefully the following summary positions in this thread. Any further posts that misrepresent either side will be deleted, but available to be re-posted if via PM the individual can make a case they were not misrepresenting the position advocated. Please let me know where I am misrepresenting anything:
  • TeeJay has proposed we use God's justice system as a template for our justice system. Crimes that were punishable by death TeeJay listed in post #12. Other crimes and their punishment are listed in post 13.
  • TeeJay has advocated that God would not expect religious/ceremonial laws such as Sabbath violations and witchcraft to be part of this list.
  • Such a justice system would be grandfathered in - that is, past violators already known, or convicted and in prison, would not be subject to the new penal statutes for any past violations, as they would not have had the advantage of the deterrent.
  • Christians are no longer under the "law", but only as it pertains to spirituality/salvation. Christians and unbelievers alike are still subject to the "law" of the governing authorities. The big question in this thread is, what should these laws and penal statues be?
It is OK to disagree with the above, but any deviation or misrepresentation will result in a deleted post.

Acceptable responses:
"God did not mean for his laws to apply to the gentiles because ... "
"God changed his view of the death penalty because..."

Unacceptable responses:
"We should not kill people who gather sticks on the Sabbath" (strawman)
"Fornicators should nto be executed" (strawman)
"Christians are no longer under the law" (strawman)
"You are advocating that we go and kill homosexuals" (vague generalization)"
"Thanks Chip, I agree with you". (needless chatter)

I would like to resume by first focusing on just one question:



Should 1st degree murderers be executed? If no, please explain what standard, if any, you base your position on.




So have at it folks! Try to keep it respectful and civil. Thanks,


Fred


#235 Teejay

Teejay

    Veteran Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,583 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Age: 78
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Texas

Posted 23 August 2011 - 06:02 AM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1313978238' post='74485']
We have established the answer to the OP. Moses' Law applies to the unsaved as a tutor to Christ.


Teejay has admitted that we cannot apply the penalties of the Mosaic Law in order to cause the unsaved to repent.

Fred agrees that there are two issues in this thread. We have addressed the first. To whom does the Mosaic Law apply and to what purpose?

The second issue is that the government must have laws and we must obey and be penalized under them. So what law should we use to this purpose?

No sir... YOU don't like God's system, and I will tell you why.

When Jesus had the opportunity to support carrying out the punishment under the Mosaic Law He did just the opposite. He also had the opportunity to change Roman (and certainly other) law and did not.

The penalties of the Mosaic law were not carried out upon countless pagan people who lived out their entire lives disobeying God's laws and died an old age in their pagan countries. So we can see that God does not require the Mosaic Law penalties to apply to all in the past.

In Bible times, the Mosaic Law was given to Israel. The Israelites were expected to obey and be penalized under that Law. Why? because they knew God. John 4:22 But today if someone knows God then they are saved. We have established that the Law does not apply to the saved.

So we see that God did not apply the penalties of the Law to the people who didn't know Him, and neither does He apply the penalties of the Law to the people who do know Him. I ask you then, to whom do the penalties of the Mosaic Law apply?

And it will remain that way, as long as God wishes, until He establishes His kingdom.

If it were up to me to make the law and the penalty I would base them on the principles set forth in the scriptures, for that is what I think Jesus was pointing out at Matthew 5 starting at verse 21 and Mark 12:30-31. If you carry out the letter of the Law but ignore the principles that the Law is based on you are missing the boat.
[/quote]

ME, before I answer this post, I must get an answer from you to the following:

Teejay, on 20 August 2011 - 11:46 AM, said:

“ME, we can't really do what you suggest. God can't do it either. Our God is a just God. If He did what you suggest, then He would not be just and sin would enter the Godhead and God would come undone. Here' why.”

ME, you took one sentence of my post—a sentence that agreed with your position and then posted: “Teejay has admitted that we cannot apply the penalties of the Mosaic Law in order to cause the unsaved to repent.”
But here’s my full post:

ME, we can't really do what you suggest. God can't do it either. Our God is a just God. If He did what you suggest, then He would not be just and sin would enter the Godhead and God would come undone. Here' why.

Presently,thanks to George Bush, sodomy in Texas and the rest of the country is legal. Now it's not legal in the eyes of God but our government told everyone it was legal. Our government can't arrest people for behavior they declared legal. it would be like inviting someone into your house and then arresting them for unlawful entry.

God, unlike our immoral politicians, does not make law retroactive back in time. You can use Cain as an example. Because God had not yet commanded punishment for murderers, He did not put Cain to death nor did He allow anyone else to put him to death.

Presently, in America, because God's law is not swiftly enforced, government authorities are swamped with criminal cases. The police can't handled all of it, and the courts are so overloaded that it by the time a murderer is brought to trial, we can't remember who he is or who he murdered. A swift, sure death penalty would reduce the number of friends you have that are committing adultery, h*m*s*xuality, incest, just to name a few.

When people do not see justice on earth it becomes increasingly difficult for them to believe that there is a just God in heaven. God put a yearning for justice in our hearts. That's why everyone cheers at the end of movie when the bad guy gets killed. Or at least they used to do so. Today, they will probably cheer for the villain.

ME, No more. You don't like God's system. Please present yours."

Why did you do this?

TeeJay

#236 Teejay

Teejay

    Veteran Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,583 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Age: 78
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Texas

Posted 23 August 2011 - 10:05 AM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1313978238' post='74485']
We have established the answer to the OP. Moses' Law applies to the unsaved as a tutor to Christ.


Teejay has admitted that we cannot apply the penalties of the Mosaic Law in order to cause the unsaved to repent.

Fred agrees that there are two issues in this thread. We have addressed the first. To whom does the Mosaic Law apply and to what purpose?

The second issue is that the government must have laws and we must obey and be penalized under them. So what law should we use to this purpose?

No sir... YOU don't like God's system, and I will tell you why.

When Jesus had the opportunity to support carrying out the punishment under the Mosaic Law He did just the opposite. He also had the opportunity to change Roman (and certainly other) law and did not.

The penalties of the Mosaic law were not carried out upon countless pagan people who lived out their entire lives disobeying God's laws and died an old age in their pagan countries. So we can see that God does not require the Mosaic Law penalties to apply to all in the past.

In Bible times, the Mosaic Law was given to Israel. The Israelites were expected to obey and be penalized under that Law. Why? because they knew God. John 4:22 But today if someone knows God then they are saved. We have established that the Law does not apply to the saved.

So we see that God did not apply the penalties of the Law to the people who didn't know Him, and neither does He apply the penalties of the Law to the people who do know Him. I ask you then, to whom do the penalties of the Mosaic Law apply?

And it will remain that way, as long as God wishes, until He establishes His kingdom.

If it were up to me to make the law and the penalty I would base them on the principles set forth in the scriptures, for that is what I think Jesus was pointing out at Matthew 5 starting at verse 21 and Mark 12:30-31. If you carry out the letter of the Law but ignore the principles that the Law is based on you are missing the boat.
[/quote]

ME, I would like to answer one of the issues you raised. I would hope that this is the last time I have to address it.


Woman caught in adultery.

First we must understand that all authority rests with God. But He has delegated SOME of His authority. He’s delegated authority to governments to punish criminals. He’s delegated authority to parents to spank their kids, etc. But any authority He has not delegated, individuals or governments do not have. When our U.S. Supreme Court rules that it’s okay to murder the innocent, they have become lawless. God has not granted this authority to them.

Does the story of the woman caught in adultery, forgiven, and released (John 8:3-11) negate the death penalty? No! Gomer was an adulteress yet God forgave her (Hos. 3:1). Still He demanded that His law be obeyed (Hos. 4:6). King David committed adultery and murder (2 Sam. 11). Yet God forgave him (Psalm 32:1-5). Still, God’s law remained in effect (Ps. 1:2; 19:7; 78:1, 5-8; 89:30-32; 119).
God forgave the New Testament adulteress just as He forgave Old Testament adulterers, but in neither instance did He revoke the law. God has all authority to forgive the criminal and disregard temporal punishment. Contrariwise, men must obey God and can’t ignore punishment commanded by God.

The Pharisees were not interested in Godly justice when they brought the woman to Jesus. They wanted to trap Jesus and get Him in a confrontation with Rome before His “hour had come.” (Rome had revoked the Jews’ authority to put a criminal to death (John 18:31.)). The Pharisees found that debating with Jesus was not a good idea. He made them look like the fools they were.

But what I want everyone to realize is that in this story, Jesus never once taught that His law should be disobeyed. Jesus Himself could have cast the first stone. But He was not about to play the Pharisees’ silly games. And, most importantly, Jesus, as God, has authority to commute a death penalty. We don’t.

Now, the fact that countless pagan countries lived and died without obeying God's law is not evidence that God did not require them to obey His law. I disobeyed His law. Everybody has disobeyed God's law at one time or another. How this can be evidence that God did not want us to obey?

The law does apply to the saved. Yesterday, a man drowned his two kids and wanted to drown the third, but the grandmother stopped him. Is he to be punished uner the law if he is a Christian?

You admitted that one of the purposes of the law was to be a tutor to bring the unsaved to Christ. How can the law be a tutor if you do not want the law to be applied?

When did Jesus have the opportunity to change Roman law?

The penalties were carried out against pagan countries TO THE EXTENT THAT ISRAEL OBEYED GOD. Please go back and read my post on this. I gave Scripture references. The fact that they died of old age is because Israel disobeyed God.

Your statement that God did not apply His law to people other than Israel is blatantly fallse.

Until He establishes His kingdom: If He will want us to obey Him in the kingdom, why would he not want us to obey Him now?

Your last paragraph: I gave you Scriptural verses from the New Testament that support the death penalty. You ignored them, have not addressed them and replaced them with a few verses that simply do not apply.

You are still on the hors of dilemma. You don't think we should be under God's law. The only two alternativer are no law at all or a law that you think we should have. But any law apart from God is no all at all.

Do you believe in absolute morality in that an immoral behavior can't be both moral and immoral at the same time?

TeeJay

#237 Teejay

Teejay

    Veteran Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,583 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Age: 78
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Texas

Posted 23 August 2011 - 11:28 AM

It seems like Teejay is implying that if we don't believe that immediate death penalties should be put in effect for violations of the law then we are saying that God's law is not for today.

Teejay goes on to say things like "If we're not under the moral laws, what basis do we have to convict sinners?"

I think there is a middle ground that seems to be overlooked. Yes, we are under God's law. It is the source for judging us. Yes, the penalty is death. The question is whether or not the death should be immediate or if it occurs at the final judgement - as in eternal separation from God.



Yes, it is good to have God's law inspiring our criminal justice system. The law points to what is truly right and wrong. But, if we don't institute the immediate punishments of the law, does that mean we are neglecting the law?

In fact, Jesus ups the ante.
He takes the OT regulations even further and warns of an even greater punishment. Jesus didn't lessen the regulations/punishments of the law - he increased them. Jesus says that being angry at someone is the same as murder (Matt 5:21-26). By this standard, whoever of you has been angry at his brother is guilty of the death penalty. Anyone want to turn themselves in for murder??

Jesus also warns of a punishment greater than the electric chair. It is the final judgement that people really need to be worried about. "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matt 10:28)

The greater regulations take precedence over the OT regulations - and the greater judgement takes precedence over the OT judgements. That's the main point I'm trying to make.


As far as NT scripture that uphold the death penalty - you are correct - NT scriptures uphold the death penalty, but not the OT practice of stoning. The OT death penalty (like much of the OT law) was a SHADOW of what was to come. The greater reality is that of eternal spiritual death and separation - which the NT of course affirms as the penalty for sin.

As I said, Rom. 2:29-32 is not supportive of a penal system of death for this sins listed - it points to the greater judgement that God will enforce at the end judgement.

When Paul lists sins in I Cor 6:9-10 and Galatians 5:19-21 - sins that include h*m*s*xuality - he doesn't warn of the penal death penalty for those who commit these acts (should be a light bulb going off here), but he warns that those who live like that won't inherit the Kingdom of God.
That is the true and ultimate punishment that overshadows any temporal punishment. We can pass laws that discourage blatant behaviors like murder and rape - but those are not the heart issues that send people to hell. Maybe those laws do eliminate murder - but does that mean society is in a better place with God? Most likely not. On the contrary, you'll probably have people who think they are ok (I've never murdered or stole anything...) and never seek God's forgiveness. You might clean society up, but you won't keep people out of hell - and that is the real punishment we should be concerned with.

Once again, Rom. 4:4-5 says "Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed."

I take three relevant thoughts from this

1.) God is currently showing forebearance towards unrighteous behavior - overlooking it in the sense of not dishing out immediate punishment
2.) God's patience is for the purpose of leading people to repentance.
3.) Wrath is not being immediately dished out - but is being STORED UP for the final day of judgement.


I think this is a good analogy: Say you have a good kid and bad kid sitting in a room for a couple hours. There is a cup of candy in the room, and punishment if either kid takes the candy. The good kid could slap the hand of the bad kid each time he takes some candy - warning him that it is wrong. Maybe the good kid does this, and maybe the bad kid still tunes it out. The good kid says "I'm not going to slap your hand anymore, but be warned that when our parents get back, you are going to be in REALLY BIG TROUBLE." That is the true deterrent for bad behavior today. You might get fined, or even go to jail for a while - but when the Father comes, if you haven't repented and put the candy back, you are going to be in REALLY BIG TROUBLE.


Air, I have to answer this way, because I keep getting dumped out of this site before I answer. So I typed it in word and pasted it:

quote] name='Air-run' timestamp='1313973384' post='74482']
It seems like Teejay is implying that if we don't believe that immediate death penalties should be put in effect for violations of the law then we are saying that God's law is not for today.


God gave his law. It applies to everyone at all times.

Teejay goes on to say things like "If we're not under the moral laws, what basis do we have to convict sinners?"


Exactly?

I think there is a middle ground that seems to be overlooked. Yes, we are under God's law. It is the source for judging us. Yes, the penalty is death. The question is whether or not the death should be immediate or if it occurs at the final judgement - as in eternal separation from God.


If you die without Jesus, your die twice. With Jesus, you die once.




Yes, it is good to have God's law inspiring our criminal justice system. The law points to what is truly right and wrong. But, if we don't institute the immediate punishments of the law, does that mean we are neglecting the law?


It points to what is truly right and wrong if it is in effect and enforced. Yes, if we do not obey God, we are neglecting Him an His law.

In fact, Jesus ups the ante. He takes the OT regulations even further and warns of an even greater punishment. Jesus didn't lessen the regulations/punishments of the law - he increased them. Jesus says that being angry at someone is the same as murder (Matt 5:21-26). By this standard, whoever of you has been angry at his brother is guilty of the death penalty. Anyone want to turn themselves in for murder??[/qute]

Jesus did not say that if you are angry at someone it is the same as murder. He said that if you are angry at someone "without cause" it's the same as murder. But God does not demand the death penalty for sin in your heart. When your anger at your brother blossoms into murder is when God demands the death penalty. Coveting is a sin. But God does not put people to death for it. Jesus said that if you lust in your heart you have committed adultery. But God does not demand the death penalty for lusting. Please distinguish between sin and a physical crime.

Jesus also warns of a punishment greater than the electric chair. It is the final judgement that people really need to be worried about. "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matt 10:28)


The eternal punishment that Jesus warns of is based on His moral law. If you do not teach it here on earth, how can people believe it exists in the hereafter?

The greater regulations take precedence over the OT regulations - and the greater judgement takes precedence over the OT judgements. That's the main point I'm trying to make.


Scripture please. Otherwise you made this up out of whole cloth.

As far as NT scripture that uphold the death penalty - you are correct - NT scriptures uphold the death penalty, but not the OT practice of stoning. The OT death penalty (like much of the OT law) was a SHADOW of what was to come. The greater reality is that of eternal spiritual death and separation - which the NT of course affirms as the penalty for sin.


Scripture please. So far, this is the law according to Air-run. Who gave you this authority?

As I said, Rom. 2:29-32 is not supportive of a penal system of death for this sins listed - it points to the greater judgement that God will enforce at the end judgement.


See Post 12. I list all the crimes for which God commands the death penalty.

When Paul lists sins in I Cor 6:9-10 and Galatians 5:19-21 - sins that include h*m*s*xuality - he doesn't warn of the penal death penalty for those who commit these acts (should be a light bulb going off here), but he warns that those who live like that won't inherit the Kingdom of God.


Why does Paul have to repeat God's commands each time he writes. His omission does not negate God's commands. Paul does not have that authority. God did not delegate authority to Paul to make or negate law.

[

That is the true and ultimate punishment that overshadows any temporal punishment. We can pass laws that discourage blatant behaviors like murder and rape - but those are not the heart issues that send people to hell. Maybe those laws do eliminate murder - but does that mean society is in a better place with God? Most likely not. On the contrary, you'll probably have people who think they are ok (I've never murdered or stole anything...) and never seek God's forgiveness. You might clean society up, but you won't keep people out of hell - and that is the real punishment we should be concerned with.


If we don't see temporal punishment, how can we believe there is temporal punishment. God's moral laws here on earth is the same law under which all unbelievers will be judged at the Great White Throne judgment. And no we can't pass moral laws. God did not grant that authority to us. I will not address the rest, because it is the law according to Air-run. Yesterday, a man drowned his two children. If he is a Christian, should he be put to death? If he is not a Christian should he be put to death?

Once again, Rom. 4:4-5 says "Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed."

I take three relevant thoughts from this

1.) God is currently showing forebearance towards unrighteous behavior - overlooking it in the sense of not dishing out immediate punishment


No. You and ME are doing that in disobedience of God's command to punish the guilty.

2.) God's patience is for the purpose of leading people to repentance.
3.) Wrath is not being immediately dished out - but is being STORED UP for the final day of judgement.


This has no bearing on whether or not we should obey God and execute criminals. Sounds so good though.

I think this is a good analogy: Say you have a good kid and bad kid sitting in a room for a couple hours. There is a cup of candy in the room, and punishment if either kid takes the candy. The good kid could slap the hand of the bad kid each time he takes some candy - warning him that it is wrong. Maybe the good kid does this, and maybe the bad kid still tunes it out. The good kid says "I'm not going to slap your hand anymore, but be warned that when our parents get back, you are going to be in REALLY BIG TROUBLE." That is the true deterrent for bad behavior today. You might get fined, or even go to jail for a while - but when the Father comes, if you haven't repented and put the candy back, you are going to be in REALLY BIG TROUBLE.


Raise a few kids and get back to me on this. My wife and I get the grandkids during the summer. My daughters enjoy the break, and we enjoy having them. My wife and I never give warnings of punishment into the distant future: "You just wait until your mother picks you upin August." First of all, my daughter does "time out." But I've tried to explain to her that the prisons are full of "time-outs." It does not work.

When our grandkids are at our house, they behave. Why? Because they face the swift retribution of Grandma. I make it a point to leave the little ones' spanking to Grandma because I'm a pretty strong physical guy. Grandma does it best. And the reason Grandpa does not have to spank is that if they show any disrespect to Grandpa, Grandma shows them, with clarity, that they have really crossed the line. Now my teen grandboys are a different story. But Grandpa has only had to show some meedium force only once. They got the message. Warnings of future punishment does not really work. Kids have short retention spans. By the time August comes, they've forgotten what they did let alone why they deserve punishment. And "time-out" does not seem to really scare them.

#238 Teejay

Teejay

    Veteran Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,583 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Age: 78
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Texas

Posted 23 August 2011 - 11:52 AM

Sorry everyone,

I got dumped out twice, but apparently it added one of my replies. So now I got two replies. Help, Fred!

TeeJay

#239 Air-run

Air-run

    Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 102 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Creation, Evolution, The Bible, Theology, Art, Video Games
  • Age: 34
  • Christian
  • Creationist
  • Seattle, Washington

Posted 23 August 2011 - 11:23 PM

Teejay said:

Jesus did not say that if you are angry at someone it is the same as murder. He said that if you are angry at someone "without cause" it's the same as murder.

Yes, thanks for the correction.

But God does not demand the death penalty for sin in your heart. When your anger at your brother blossoms into murder is when God demands the death penalty. Coveting is a sin. But God does not put people to death for it. Jesus said that if you lust in your heart you have committed adultery. But God does not demand the death penalty for lusting. Please distinguish between sin and a physical crime.


The Pharisees tried to play that game. They figured they were righteous if their outside looked righteous - but Jesus called them white-washed tombs. They were dead on the inside. Do you think the penalty should be less if the sin is only in the mind and not carried out in action? That is exactly what the Pharisees thought, and Jesus corrected that type of thinking. I'm not an expert on criminal justice, so I'm not focusing too much on it - I'm firstly concerned with how Jesus defined breaking the Law and what he prescribed as the punishment. If you want to base our criminal justice system on Biblical principles, you should focus on Jesus' interpretation of the Law. He said "thought crimes" were just as vile as physical crimes, and that they deserved death. Matt. 5:21-30.

The eternal punishment that Jesus warns of is based on His moral law. If you do not teach it here on earth, how can people believe it exists in the hereafter?


Follow Jesus' example. When he taught the people, he did not reiterate the concept of penal punishment for crimes - he said it would be a lot worse for offenders - eternal hell. You still teach people God's moral laws and warn them of an even greater punishment for neglecting them. Should we really rely on the government to set the example for eternal truths?

Scripture please. Otherwise you made this up out of whole cloth.

I quoted Jesus. The Law didn't provide restrictions for not looking at someone with lust. Jesus unpacked the heart of the law - and told people that serving God wasn't about restricting certain behaviors, it was about the heart and surrender of one's life. Somebody could abstain from all that the Law instructs us to stay away from and not be truly serving God - and then what good is it that they avoided the death penalty on earth?

Do you not agree that much of the law was types and shadows of greater truths? The ancient Jews did not have a concept of what hell was. To them, being stoned or cut off from Israel was the extent of their understanding of God's punishment. Jesus revealed the true reality of God's punishments for unrepentant sinners.

Why does Paul have to repeat God's commands each time he writes. His omission does not negate God's commands. Paul does not have that authority. God did not delegate authority to Paul to make or negate law.

Paul, like Jesus, revealed the greater spiritual reality behind the law. Paul said the "wages of sin is death." (Rom. 6:23) He fully supported a death penalty - but affirmed that the true death penalty was a spiritual death penalty. James states that if you break one law, you are guilty of breaking them all in God's eyes (James 2:10). If James was a staunch supporter of the law's system of punishments, he could have used this principle to put to death all the liars in the church. The message is the same, there is no difference between committing a small sin and committing a physical crime - at least as far as God and his Law are concerned. Our justice system can't rule this way, because earthly judges can't judge the intent of a man's heart.

If we don't see temporal punishment, how can we believe there is temporal punishment.


If we don't see God, how can we believe He is real? What is your point? Do we need physical evidence for every spiritual reality? Perhaps the opposite would be true of what you think. What if we had no justice system, and people were free to rampantly commit crimes? Would that make people deny an eternal system of rewards and punishment? Or would it cause people to cry out for one even more, seeing that justice isn't being served in this temporary earth?

No. You and ME are doing that in disobedience of God's command to punish the guilty.

Ok, for my sake - please explain to me what it means when it says God is showing forbearance and patience towards sinners?

This has no bearing on whether or not we should obey God and execute criminals. Sounds so good though.


My main point is that if God is allowing people to store up wrath (ie: not dishing out wrath immediately) - how would we be violating God's will by following his example? Jesus said he did what he saw the Father doing.

Right now, God is not counting the world's trespasses against them (2 Cor. 5:19) They are guilty, but he is not acting towards them as his justice permits him to. This is not unrighteous behavior on God's part. This is behavior that tends to defy our sense of immediate fairness. We think that if something doesn't happen immediately, then something is wrong. Atheists wonder why God stands by and lets the wicked roam free. They think the only way justice is served is if it is immediate - by their standards. In reality, God will not let the wicked roam free - but the judgement will happen in his timing, not ours.

Raise a few kids and get back to me on this.

I've got 2 now and one on the way in less than a month. I'll let you know how the raising part went in another 20 years. It was an analogy. Presumably, the kids in my story represent fully cognitive and mature adults.

#240 Teejay

Teejay

    Veteran Member

  • Veteran Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,583 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Age: 78
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • Texas

Posted 24 August 2011 - 09:21 AM

[quote] name='Air-run' timestamp='1314167035' post='74548']
Teejay said:


Yes, thanks for the correction.[/quote]


And thank you for your humility and honesty. This is only the second time I've seen this on this thread. It's refreshing!




[quote]The Pharisees tried to play that game. They figured they were righteous if their outside looked righteous - but Jesus called them white-washed tombs. They were dead on the inside. Do you think the penalty should be less if the sin is only in the mind and not carried out in action? That is exactly what the Pharisees thought, and Jesus corrected that type of thinking. I'm not an expert on criminal justice, so I'm not focusing too much on it - I'm firstly concerned with how Jesus defined breaking the Law and what he prescribed as the punishment. If you want to base our criminal justice system on Biblical principles, you should focus on Jesus' interpretation of the Law. He said "thought crimes" were just as vile as physical crimes, and that they deserved death. Matt. 5:21-30.[/quote]


Air, God does not command the death penalty for our thoughts. I am an expert on God’s criminal justice system. When I retired, I did an in-depth study of His justice system because, as a law enforcement officer, I saw first-hand that ours was broken

Air, God does not command the death penalty for our thoughts. If He did, we would all be dead. And the earthly police do not have mind powers to read your thoughts. They can only police your physical actions. As a young man, I committed adultery. It destroyed me and my family. I'm still dealing with the ramifications of this terrible crime, and I now know personally why God deems it a crime and not just a sin. (Crimes are worse than sins. All sins are not crimes, but all crimes are sin.) If I had just lusted in my heart but had not followed through, I could have got on my knees and repented. No damage to my family would have occurred. Thinking about murder is not quite the same as murdering. Thinking about robbing a bank is not quite the same as robbing the bank. Crimes are actual hurt to other people. Sins of the heart hurt God and you and not other people. No matter how you slice it, nowhere in the Bible does God command the death penalty for thinking about it. And God's threat of future hell does not negate His physical death penalty here on earth

Jesus was trying to teach Jews, the people of the circumcision or law, that they got no kudos from God if their motivation for living righteously was the law. Think about the man who gets to heaven and brags in front of his wife that he never once was unfaithful. But Jesus, who knows our hearts, points out that he had lusted after his neighbor’s wife for 20 years—when she walked to her car, when she weeded her garden, when she visited his wife, when she fed the dog. Neither God nor his wife will be much impressed by his faithfulness because his motivation was not love for his wife but fear of the law.

Always remind yourself the law has only two purposes: It deters criminals if enforced swiftly and justly; and it convicts and points to the need for a Savior. Love for our neighbor and for God should be our motivation.




[quote]Follow Jesus' example. When he taught the people, he did not reiterate the concept of penal punishment for crimes - he said it would be a lot worse for offenders - eternal hell. You still teach people God's moral laws and warn them of an even greater punishment for neglecting them. Should we really rely on the government to set the example for eternal truths?[/quote]

Jesus said that He had not come to change one period or one comma of the law. He commanded the Pharisees to keep His law, the "weightier matters without leaving the lesser undone." And in Matthew 15, He scolded the Pharisees for not carrying out the death penalty for symbolic crime of cursing your father and mother. If Jesus did not shy away from a symbolic crime for the Jews, then should we not execute murderers? Note: Some theologians include cursing mother and father as a moral crime that should be enforced today. Fred is of this school of thought. I don’t. Israel had a special relationship with Israel and many symbolic laws, if disobeyed, were death penalty infractions. After working with Moses for 80 years, God almost killed Moses for failure to circumcise his son by his Midionite wife Zipporah (Ex. 4:24-26). So, for the Jews, God used the law against cursing parents as a teaching device to not curse their Father God. So I did not include this as a moral crime for us today. I could be wrong?





[quote]I quoted Jesus. The Law didn't provide restrictions for not looking at someone with lust. Jesus unpacked the heart of the law - and told people that serving God wasn't about restricting certain behaviors, it was about the heart and surrender of one's life. Somebody could abstain from all that the Law instructs us to stay away from and not be truly serving God - and then what good is it that they avoided the death penalty on earth?[/quote]


Jesus' teaching on this did not repeal His command to put people to death for capital crimes. Jesus' death on the Cross is at the heart of the death penalty. God the Father did not commute the death penalty for His Son Jesus who was innocent. But for some reason, our churches today are teaching that we should disobey God and not execute murderers who are guilty. Jesus did not die to save our physical bodies. Jesus could rearrange molecules before the Cross—and He did when He healed people. Our eternal souls required a sacrifice of infinite value.


[quote]Do you not agree that much of the law was types and shadows of greater truths? The ancient Jews did not have a concept of what hell was. To them, being stoned or cut off from Israel was the extent of their understanding of God's punishment. Jesus revealed the true reality of God's punishments for unrepentant sinners.[/quote]


If you change "was" to "is" I'll agree. The physical punishments that God commands (present tense) are still in effect today. But Christians today are trying their best to make them of no effect. And what’s most egregious is that God did not give any man authority to do this. In fact, God says we profane Him when we “keep people alive who should not live and kill those who should not die” (Ezek. 13:19).

Here in Texas, we half-heartedly enforce a death penalty. Usually, it’s ten or more years after they’ve committed the crime. Instead of people “hearing and fearing” (as Moses and Solomon say should happen), the people can’t remember who the murderer was and his victim is long forgotten. But the night before the execution, anti-death penalty advocates protest at outside the prison. But if you do a personal poll of these protestors, over 90 percent of them think it’s perfectly fine for a mother to kill her baby. “It’s her right to choose” they will tell you. So they will fight to keep Jeffrey Dahmer alive while killing an innocent baby in the womb.




[quote]Paul, like Jesus, revealed the greater spiritual reality behind the law. Paul said the "wages of sin is death." (Rom. 6:23) He fully supported a death penalty - but affirmed that the true death penalty was a spiritual death penalty. James states that if you break one law, you are guilty of breaking them all in God's eyes (James 2:10). If James was a staunch supporter of the law's system of punishments, he could have used this principle to put to death all the liars in the church. The message is the same, there is no difference between committing a small sin and committing a physical crime - at least as far as God and his Law are concerned. Our justice system can't rule this way, because earthly judges can't judge the intent of a man's heart.[/quote]


All sins and crimes are not equal. Paul, who was given the grace gospel for the Gentiles, was warning his followers that they had two choices for their spiritual walk with the Lord. They could "walk in the Spirit and they would not fulfill the lusts of the flesh" or they could get circumcised and put themselves under the Gospel of Circumcision or law. If they did this, then they were required to keep the whole law. God only commands that liars be put to death if they are false witnesses in a capital crime (Post 12). James and Paul have no authority to negate or enact moral law. God has not given this authority to any man.

Air, you wrote: "There is no difference between committing a small sin and committing a physical crime." God disagrees with you. Read the post on cliches, particularly, "All sins are not equal." The fact that God prescribes different punishments for different crimes should tell us something. In Saudi Arabia, they cut off a hand for stealing. God would never prescribe this type of punishment. God's punishment fits the crime.

Jesus Himself said to Pilate: “The one who turned Me over to you has the greater crime.” Clearly showing that all sins are not equal. Show me the moral equivalency of my granddaughter stealing a cookie from grandma’s cookie jar and the man who the other day drowned his two kids.




[quote]If we don't see God, how can we believe He is real? What is your point? Do we need physical evidence for every spiritual reality? Perhaps the opposite would be true of what you think. What if we had no justice system, and people were free to rampantly commit crimes? Would that make people deny an eternal system of rewards and punishment? Or would it cause people to cry out for one even more, seeing that justice isn't being served in this temporary earth?[/quote]


The opposite can't be true of what I think. The opposite is true of what the Christian church thinks. I posted in Post 12 what God thinks. But we seem to want to ignore what He thinks and do contortions to keep from agreeing with Him. And you asked what if there was no law and people were free to rampantly commit crimes? The answer is in Genesis: "God was sorry that He had made man." God allowed man to live unrestrained by any law or punishment from Cain to Noah. We can see the results. Things got so bad that God could not fix it. God's crimes in Post 12 reflect His eternal judgment. “Some will be beaten with few stripes and some with many stripes,” Jesus said. Unbelievers will be punished under His laws. How can you argue that enforcing them here on earth will not warn man of the earthly judgment? And there is nothing wrong with physical evidence. Jesus used physical evidence with His miracles. Paul wrote, “…because what may be known of God is manifest in the, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made…” (Rom. 1:19-20). And Jesus Himself said, “If I bear witness of Myself, don’t believe Me.” The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the only God who does not ask us to blindly believe. Joseph Smith and Mohammed do this. They both “bear witness of themselves (something that Jesus did not do).





[quote]Ok, for my sake - please explain to me what it means when it says God is showing forbearance and patience towards sinners?[/quote]


He is not showing forbearance and patience for the sake of your physical body. All bodies will be resurrected--"some to eternal glory and some to eternal damnation." God did not die to save our physical bodies. When the soul is saved, when we repent, the body automatically follows. Jesus explained of this when He taught that it was better to go to heaven with missing body parts than to go to hell hardy and whole. “If you left eye offends you, pluck it out…” Now Jesus was not being literal here. He was using a little hyperbole to get His point across.




[quote]My main point is that if God is allowing people to store up wrath (ie: not dishing out wrath immediately) - how would we be violating God's will by following his example? Jesus said he did what he saw the Father doing.[/quote]


God did not give man authority to show mercy to criminals. He forbids it (Num. 15:31; Deut. 19:13, 21; Pro. 6:30-31). Earthly judges do not have standing to forgive another person’s debt. If you murder your wife, only your wife and God can forgive you. An earthly judge can't. Jesus, as God, had authority to commute the death penalty for the woman caught in adultery. The Pharisees did not. Air, if I can’t teach you anythingelse, please understand this: You (or any other man except Jesus) do not have authority to make moral law or to nullify His law. The moral law is a description of God just as the physical laws are a description of the physical universe.


[quote]Right now, God is not counting the world's trespasses against them (2 Cor. 5:19) They are guilty, but he is not acting towards them as his justice permits him to. This is not unrighteous behavior on God's part. This is behavior that tends to defy our sense of immediate fairness. We think that if something doesn't happen immediately, then something is wrong. Atheists wonder why God stands by and lets the wicked roam free. They think the only way justice is served is if it is immediate - by their standards. In reality, God will not let the wicked roam free - but the judgement will happen in his timing, not ours.[/quote]


2 Cor. 5:19 is applicable to members of the Body of Christ. When we accept Jesus Christ in accordance with Romans 10:9-10, the Holy Spirit baptizes us into the Body of Christ where we are sealed. The law passes away for each man or woman individually when we accept Jesus Christ. The whole unbelieving world is under the law and condemned by it. Paul wrote that “I was alive once without the law. But the law came and I died.” When was Paul alive without the law? Only one possible answer: When he was too young to have the “knowledge of good and evil” ( Deut. 1:39). But all of us eventually grow up and the law condemns us.

God has delegated authority to governments to "bring wrath" upon criminals. Governments are His minister in this regard. Atheists know instinctively in their hearts what Christians should. God put justice in our hearts. We have a yearning for justice. "Atheists wonder why God stands by and lets the wicked go free." They don't have to wonder. I can tell them. It's because Christians have become nicer than God.




[quote]I've got 2 now and one on the way in less than a month. I'll let you know how the raising part went in another 20 years. It was an analogy. Presumably, the kids in my story represent fully cognitive and mature adults.[/quote]


My advice: Don't be afraid to spank, but be just and fair. Use God as an example. God does not punish a man who “accidently” kills. He only punishes if a man intends to kill. Likewise, never punish your child for having an accident (breaking a glass or spilling milk). I have seen parents do this and I correct them. I'’m old enough to get away with it.

But, and this is a big but: Don't ever spank in public. You will go to jail and your kids will be put in foster care. I know a good Christian family to which this happened. In today's society, you can molest your kids, kill them, drown them, torture them, etc. and you have a good chance of getting counseling and an appearance on Oprah to tell your story of why you did it: "I was suffering from post bad hair day." And you will get a standing O. But, whatever you do, don’t spank.

God had three forms of punishment. Death penalty for capital crimes. Restitution for theft. And flogging for minor crimes. Now flogging was not for kids who just needed a good spanking. Flogging was for young men or women who committed minor crimes—like public intoxication and fighting or a rebellious son who was too big for the parents to spank.

Now contrast this with our juvenile justice system. The kid commits a minor crime that is fixable with a good flogging or some minor punishment. But we let him go unpunished. So next time he commits a crime that is a little more serious. They still let him go. Over his remaining teen years, he is let go each time he commits a crime. Finally, he graduates to a serious felony crime that can’t be fixed with a light flogging. I have personally seen this happen. I saw the surprised look on the face of a young 18 year old Black when the judge sentenced him to prison. He was astonished! He had gotten off so many times that he could not believe that the authorities were actually going to punish him. Our justice system did him no favors.

Air, I would like you to give me your justice system, since you don't like God's. Should we have no law? Should we have a law according to Air u will be the first.

TeeJay




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users