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For Whom Was God's Law Intended, Israel Only Or The World?


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#41 Calypsis4

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 05:08 PM

Jason,

God says, "If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. THEY SHALL SURELY BE PUT TO DEATH" (Lev. 20;13).

Why are you offended by God's law above? I would like an answer.

A Christian should not be offended by any of God's commands. If he is offended, he needs to ask himself why.


TeeJay


Are you seriously suggesting that fornicators be put to death like as was done under the Mosaic economy and Jewish government? Well, if the government takes such action that is one thing, but the church has no more obligation than to remove such offenders from membership in the congregation (I Corinth. 5), that is, if they will not repent. The church does not have the obligation nor the right to execute such offenders.

But again, if we take the position that our government should kill G*ys or fornicators then there are a whole lot of offenders and criminals that should be put to death and not just them. Actually, I am not against God's law being the basis of our society but the way the morals of our country are now...we are light years from any respect for those laws now.

Why call for the fire department when the building is already 9/10 burned?

#42 Calypsis4

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 05:13 PM

nothing from me.

what he suggest would be if this was to take effect in 1996 this poster would be dead and his brother may have never come to christ nor my dad. when God saved me , i lead my brother to the lord and he my dad.


I see.

#43 jason

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 05:18 PM

I see.

the contra argument would suggest that i am too soft on G*ys. no, and no
i have been hated on fb for not supporting G*ys as if that is something to boast.i have been hated on antother forum by a g*y man whom was banned.

i know full well what the lust of men on men is. i was tempted by that the age of ten but never acted on it till later and that only once., a muslim friend told his mother and she called me after prayer and read romans 1. i was going to church and being a mocker in that i knew i was wrong but i wanted that sin over god.

i repented, and a yr later i lead my brother to christ. i know i have touched men who were like me by giving them hope. but i know men who hide behind the bible and the ot and hate G*ys and condment them to hell without chance to repent.

i want nothing to do with that.

#44 MamaElephant

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 06:32 PM

Jason, I'm not sure if I understand your post? But you posted, "God hates queers." My understanding from Scripture is that God hates UNREPENTANT queers. Jesus responded with love to anyone who came to Him in humility with a repentant heart. But He harshly rebuked the self-righteous Pharisees.

I, God, and the angels in heaven rejoice over you, "the one sheep that was lost but now is found" and returned to the safety of the Sheppard. I do have a question for you. Why did you repent of this lifestyle? Did some Christian rebuke you? Did your conscience convict you (God wrote the law on our hearts)? Why do I ask this? There is a church near me that allows h*m*sexuals (with partners) to attend and are not rebuked by anyone. I rebuked the pastor and told him that he was offended by God's word. h*m*s*xuality is not only a sin, but it is a crime punishable by death (Ex. 22:19; Lev. 20:15-16). Superficially, God's punishment may seem very harsh, but long term, it is more merciful. Just look at the millions who have died of AIDS and all manner of deseases because we have ignored God's wisdom.

I asked this pastor why should these people repent and accept Jesus Christ? And then I pointed out to him that Hollywood, our media, our legislators, our courts, and even our Christian leaders have convinced h*m*sexuals that they are most wonderful of creatures. They have no reason to repent.

Paul pointed out that the law is our teacher to convict us of our sins and to show us our need for a Savior. Without the concemnation of the law, we deem ourselves righteous because we have no condemnation. (While our conscience can convict us it can also become hard.) Also, it becomes more difficult for people to believe in a just God in heaven when they do not see justice here on earth. The law is a mirror that shows us our true idenity.

While we should welcome sinners into our pews, we should not let them languish Sunday after Sunday in their sin without being told the truth. Paul warned that "a little leaven leavens the whole loaf." Christian love should rebuke, warn, condemn, and point to our Savior Jesus Christ.

I pray that I have addressed this post to your satisfaction?

the later is often attributed to christians but often any solid christian wont say that one.

Your earlier post seemed to say that you were concerned with h*m*sexuals repenting. But your current stand seems to say the opposite. I thank the Lord that I was not put to death 7 years ago. He has let me live long enough to find Him and repent.

#45 MamaElephant

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 06:39 PM

Jason,

God says, "If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. THEY SHALL SURELY BE PUT TO DEATH" (Lev. 20;13).

Why are you offended by God's law above? I would like an answer.

A Christian should not be offended by any of God's commands. If he is offended, he needs to ask himself why.


TeeJay

Do you have evidence that under the New Covenant Jesus has put h*m*sexuals to death? Do you have evidence that under the New Covenant He has let them live long enough to repent and then furthermore accepted their repentance and made them Saints? Do you realize that these same Saints could stand in positions of judgment?

#46 Teejay

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 07:01 PM

[quote] name='Calypsis4' timestamp='1313280486' post='74096']
Are you seriously suggesting that fornicators be put to death like as was done under the Mosaic economy and Jewish government? Well, if the government takes such action that is one thing, but the church has no more obligation than to remove such offenders from membership in the congregation (I Corinth. 5), that is, if they will not repent. The church does not have the obligation nor the right to execute such offenders.[/quote]

Cal, the Bible does not say that "fornicators" should be put to death. And I did not claim that. The Mosaic law does not say that. And no where did I argue that the church should execute anyone. The government is God's minister to bring wrath and vengeance on criminals. The main mission that God gave to governments is to establish our safety and execute and punish criminals. But the church has the right and an obligation to be salt and light and influence what the government legislates. If the government does not legislate Godly morality, then what morality do you suggest they legislate?

[quote]But again, if we take the position that our government should kill G*ys or fornicators then there are a whole lot of offenders and criminals that should be put to death and not just them. Actually, I am not against God's law being the basis of our society but the way the morals of our country are now...we are light years from any respect for those laws now.[/quote]

I am not taking the position that "fornicators" should be put to death. If God commanded it, then I would be arguing for it. Check my posts. And I listed all the death penalty crimes, with scripture reference, for which God demands the death penalty.

I know we're light years away from respect for God's laws. I expect unbelievers to be offended by God's law. But I don't expect Christians to be against them. But they are. That's why we are light years away.

[quote]Why call for the fire department when the building is already 9/10 burned?
[/quote]

You may be right. There may be no hope. But God is the Eternal Optimist and so should we. We shouldn't simply throw in the towel. One good reason I wanted to post this thread is to educate Christians as to what God's law says. Most Christians are ignorant of it. You can ask 100 Christians what the penalty for perjury is and you would not get a correct answer. Sader still is that 100 Christian pastors can't answer either. I've tried it.

Paul said that judgment will be delegated to the saints. We will judge angels. The whole unbelieving world will be judged under God's law. But first, we will have to send the majority of Christians in heaven to remedial classes so that they will be equipped to judge.

TeeJay

#47 Teejay

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 07:22 PM

Do you have evidence that under the New Covenant Jesus has put h*m*sexuals to death? Do you have evidence that under the New Covenant He has let them live long enough to repent and then furthermore accepted their repentance and made them Saints? Do you realize that these same Saints could stand in positions of judgment?


ME, what "new covenant" are you referring to?


Allowing man to live restrained only by his conscience was a total disaster. So, when Noah got off the Ark, God’s first command to Noah was to execute murders: “Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed….” (Gen. 9:6). Theologians call this the “Dispensation of Government.” This was not just a one-time command from God. God further reinforced this command through Moses and extended the death penalty to other crimes besides murder. And even before the Mosaic Law, God executed the inhabitants of two whole cities (Sodom and Gomorrah) for the crime of h*m*s*xuality. Today, h*m*sexuals are pushing for equal rights, performing their filthy acts on TV, marching proudly in parades, and are lusting after our children (instead of Lot’s angelic guests). Ignoring God’s law has dire consequences.

The number one argument that nicer-than-God Christians use is “But that was in the Old Testament!” In other words, in the Old Testament God was so mean! But then God went to Government sensitivity training and changed in the New Testament. Question: Does the New Testament support the death penalty? Answer: Jesus, Paul, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, thief on the Cross, Acts, Hebrews, Revelation, and even an angel--all support the death penalty.


God’s Way of Deterring Crime

The Apostle Paul did not object to execution. He knew and defended his rights as a Roman citizen. Yet, while on trial, he volunteered an endorsement of capital punishment to the Governor of Caesarea:

“For if I [Paul] am an offender, or have committed anything deserving of death, I do not object to dying….” Acts 25:11

God said, “Vengeance is Mine” showing that vengeance is inherently good. Individuals are not to avenge themselves, but must allow God to avenge in His way:

Repay no one evil for evil. …do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, ‘Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. Paul, Rom. 12:17, 19

Paul instructs us not to seek our own revenge, but to “give place to wrath.” Paul then explains that the proper channel for wrath is the “governing authorities.” The place for wrath is government:

Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities… For rulers are not a terror to good works but to evil. Paul, Rom. 13:1, 3

Godly rulers are a terror to evildoers. God commands earthly government to execute criminals with the sword:

For [the governing authority] is God’s minister… But if you do evil, be afraid; for he [government authority] does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. Paul, Rom 13:4

A sword does not flog. It beheads. Paul instructs believers to “not avenge themselves, “but rather give place to wrath.” Governments are the place for wrath for they are “God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath.”

The author of the book of Hebrews also supports the death penalty. The certainty of an earthly punishment under the Mosaic Law indicates the sureness of an eternal punishment for those who reject Jesus Christ:

Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies [present tense] without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot…. Hebrews 10:28-29

Execution teaches men of the certainty of God’s eternal punishment. When governments neglect the death penalty, people scoff at the second death. The New Testament reinforces Old Testament support for the death penalty:

Be afraid of the sword for yourselves; for wrath brings the punishment of the sword, that you may know there is judgment. Job. 19:29

The righteous shall rejoice when he sees the vengeance…. So that men will say, “…Surely He is God who judges in the earth.” Psalm 58:10-11

“Will you profane Me [asks the Lord] killing people who should not die [babies in the womb], and keeping people alive who should not live [Tookie Williams, Karla Faye Tucker, Scott Peterson, abortionists, kidnappers, h*m*sexuals, etc.]…?” God, Ezekiel 13:19

Jesus Affirmed the Death Penalty

Jesus affirmed the Mosaic Law and He blasted the Pharisees [and today’s Pope] for opposing God’s commands:

“Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? For God commanded saying… ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ But you say….” Jesus, Matthew 15:3-5; Mark 7:8-11

Jesus here did not shrink from even this harsh, symbolic statute which His Father had given to Israel to illustrate the eternal death deserved by those who cursed their heavenly Father. But while there has since been “a change of the symbolic law” (Heb. 7:12), quoting Jesus on this shows that He did not oppose the death penalty concerning moral law.

The Two Thieves on the Cross

One of the two thieves that were crucified next to Jesus agreed with Him and endorsed the death penalty: “Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him saying, ‘If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.’ But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, ‘Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong’” (Luke 23:39-41). This thief not only endorsed God’s death penalty, but he repented and Jesus assured him that “this day you will be with Me in Paradise [Abraham’s bosom]” (Luke 23:43). These two thieves were not only criminals who stole, but the Greek word used to describe them was a criminal who not only stole but murdered their victims. They were criminals deserving of the death penalty.


Angels Agree With God

Angels in heaven agree with just execution:

And I heard the angel… saying: “O Lord… You have judged these things. For they have shed the blood of saints… and You have given them blood to drink. For it is their just due.” An Angel, Revelation 16:5-6

God’s Two Witnesses in Revelation Will Carry Out Execution

God will equip the two witnesses in Revelation to execute those trying to harm them.

And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed… Revelation 11:5

If You Live by the Sword, You Die by the Sword

Revelation penman, the Apostle John, also taught that you reap what you sow:

…he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. John, Revelation 13:10

Casting the First Stone

If Jesus didn't support the death penalty, why did He say “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first,” regarding the adulteress? She repented, and Jesus Christ [who is God] has authority to forgive criminals and commute their death penalty. God did not delegate this authority to man. God also forgave David; yet in neither Testament, Old nor New, did He repeal the death penalty law. Further, the Pharisees here tried to trick Jesus (John 8:6) into a conflict with Pilate since the Romans had revoked the Jews’ authority to put criminals to death (John 18:31). Did Jesus repeal the law in His sermon?

Who Can Forgive Whom?

Jesus taught: “If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him” (Luke 17:3). Jesus authorizes you to forgive those who “sin against you,” not those who murder your neighbor. Only God can forgive him and only “if he repents.” A murderer can be forgiven only by his victim and by God and then only if he repents. Since his victim is dead, he must seek forgiveness from God. But earthly judges or government officials are not allowed by God to show mercy (Num. 35:31; Deut. 19:13, 21; Pro. 6:30-31). On the testimony of two or three witnesses, guilt is established (Num. 35:30; Deut. 17:6; 19:15; Heb. 10:2; 1 Tim. 5:19).


Is God Concerned for the Body or the Soul?

If only the Pope and Christian leaders were as zealous for saving men’s souls as they are for saving men’s bodies. If we look to Scripture, God is much more concerned about our eternal souls than He is our mortal bodies. Immediately after the Fall, God cut off man’s access to the Tree of Life. God did not want men living eternally in a sinful state. His sinful nature will only make him more evil.

And the Lord God said, “Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So He drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. Gen. 3:22-24

Immediately after the Fall, man’s gene pool, created perfect by God, was “fresh”. Men lived hundreds of years. When evil people live long lives, the majority become more evil.

And the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not always strive with [rule in] man, for that he also is fresh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

For What Shall It Profit a Man…?

Jesus did not come to redeem our bodies. Jesus had the power to heal and resuscitate physical bodies before the Cross. Jesus also left us with no doubt that these bodies of ours were disposable.

“For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?” Jesus, Mark 8:36-37

Jesus said that it was better to enter heaven with missing body parts than to be whole and go to hell. Before reading the following quote, please understand that Jesus does not want us to amputate arms and legs. Jesus used hyperbole to show how much more value He places on our souls than our bodies.

“Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.” Jesus, Mat. 18:8

Jesus said that if you value your physical body more than your soul, you will lose both.

“For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for My sake shall find it.” Jesus, Mat. 16:25

“For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for My sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it.” Jesus, Mark 8:35

The Apostle Paul agreed with Jesus Christ: “For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace” (Rom. 8:5).


I Know What God Says, But I Think…

What I think, you think, the Pope thinks (or decrees), or Protestant clergy think matters not one iota. The German Nazis in World War II felt that it was okay to exterminate the Jews, contrary to God’s law. Our Supreme Court thought it was okay to murder innocent babies in the womb. Over 50 million babies have had their arms and legs ripped off in abortion mills in America since their decision. But all this is not new. We can read in the Book of Judges: “In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did what was right in his own eyes” (Judges 17:6)

But it is much worse today. Our rulers (US Government authorities) are doing “what is right in their own eyes’ and allowing citizens to also break God’s law. At least when King David committed murder and adultery, he did not make these crimes legal for all citizens. Today, our President, Congress, and Supreme Court have legalized murder (abortion), h*m*s*xuality, and adultery for everyone. And, if you go to your local court house in any State in America, you will discover that a perjurer (false witness against his neighbor) has not been prosecuted in years, especially “expert witnesses.”

Death Penalty for Jesus Christ

Lastly, God had His own Son Jesus Christ die on the Cross for all the sins of man. Jesus’ death on the Cross is at the heart of the death penalty. Jesus went willingly to the Cross to balance the eternal scales of justice. If God did not commute the death penalty for His innocent Son, then neither should we commute the death penalty for an unrepentant murderer, rapist, kidnapper, or child molesting sodomite.

Godless Supreme Court

Lately, our Supreme Court has been weakening the death penalty laws. For example, they ruled that we can’t execute juvenile murderers. In Scripture, when a murder is committed, God asks only one question: “Was it as accident?” God does not care if you had a bad father, bi-polar disorder, or a bad hair day even. If you commit murder, you are to be put to death.

When our Supreme Court votes to outlaw the death penalty, I want them to exempt one family. I want them to exempt my family! As the patriarch of my family, I want the death penalty for any member of my family who commits a crime for which God commands the death penalty. I do not want any of my children or grandchildren thinking that they can commit a capital crime worthy of death and not be punished. I value their eternal souls more than their physical bodies.


TeeJay

#48 jason

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 07:23 PM

ah err. in the days of the torah its said this on fornicators.

leviticus 21:9

9And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the "No name calling", she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire

and also this

deutermony 22 kjv

20But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:

21Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the "No name calling" in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.

22If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel


do we really want a theocracy like this from another era? that chapter has a contraversial vs to it that im sure none would want.

#49 jason

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 07:28 PM

paul felt that but would teejay execute said criminals that day? one time only to repent. i have a saying never ask somebody to do something you either wont do or if you cant support it.

has teejay watched men die in person by his hands. it makes one callous.

you doubt war has done this to me. i expercienced no emotions nor sorrow at a first reaction to the seal team 6. its war they died it happens is my thoughts. i had to be chastisted by a marine gunny to remember what the lord did do.


when you can take a life from someone who harms none by death or isnt a threat anymore to anyone and is being sentenced to death you have to wonder is this right.

i am pro death penalty but i also know that what is asked of the guards by their admissions isnt easy, they feel guilt in doing it, for if they day we forget we have taken a life even if moral we have forgotten why we must fight agaisnt murder.

#50 Teejay

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 07:40 PM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1313285975' post='74101']
Do you have evidence that under the New Covenant Jesus has put h*m*sexuals to death? Do you have evidence that under the New Covenant He has let them live long enough to repent and then furthermore accepted their repentance and made them Saints? Do you realize that these same Saints could stand in positions of judgment?
[/quote]

ME, I did not address your last concern. We would have to be God to know if they are going to repent or if they might find the cure for cancer as Jason posited. Before we execute them we witness to them. A murderer is much more likely to accept Jesus when the Grimn Reaper is staring him in the face.

A swift death penalty also deters crme.


Death Penalty Deters Crime

Some oppose the death penalty on practical grounds, arguing that it is not a deterrent. Before we argue this point, God did not give the death penalty primarily as a deterrent. The death penalty is to punish the evil doer. Now let’s examine facts. In the late sixties, when there was an average of 6,000 murders a year, the United States Supreme Court struck down the death penalty as unConstitutional. Six years later, when it was reinstated in the early seventies, the number of average annual murders had jumped to nearly 16,000 victims per year.

In countries like Saudi Arabia, which enforce a swift and certain death penalty, violent crime is rare. Singapore and Los Angeles have equivalent populations; yet in one year Singapore had 58 murders (some followed by swift execution) while Los Angeles had 1,063. Criminal sub-cultures like the Mafia show that the death penalty deters even career criminals, since few ever double-cross their superiors, fearing swift execution.

Let’s put aside the experts we see on TV who claim that the death penalty does not deter crime and see what God says. Moses wrote, “So you shall put away the evil from Israel. And all the people shall hear and fear, and no longer act presumptuously” (Deut. 17:12-13). And Solomon advised, “Because the sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil” (Eccl. 8:11)

TeeJay

#51 jason

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 07:57 PM

ok. well then the population of american church would be zero. and do you really think that the govt could be that efficient when often men die of natural causes on death row?

no appeals. your are guilty and that it? men do lie on charges(salem witch trial)

uh we won the war agaisnt germaney due to a g*y man, who figured out the enigma machines.

guess we should have killed before he had the chance to do that.

pick your battles wisely is all im saying. theres no evidence in the nt that the church did what you say.

heres a big problem with your logic

lets say we are protestant and all of canada is catholic and they send missionaries. is this still relavant.

heretics were killed, if a man says lets go serve another god then we shall at the mouth of three witnesees stone him?

yup in our history , sadly, we have that happen. christian sects often say if you dont do as i do you arent saved thus a serveant of the devil. luther killed the jews, the catholics the protestants and vice versa. so you want to go back to that?

#52 Teejay

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 08:54 PM

[quote] name='jason' timestamp='1313288594' post='74104']
ah err. in the days of the torah its said this on fornicators.

leviticus 21:9

9And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the "No name calling", she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire[/quote]

This law is not for us today. There are no more temporal high priests for Israel. Jesus Christ is the final and eternal High Priest for Israel (see Hebrews). There were special symbolic laws for the high priests of Israel that applied to no one else. The high priests were symbolic of Jesus Christ. For example, a high priest could not be lame because in Jesus the lame walk. The high priest could not be with a harlot because this is joining Jesus to a harlot. And so on. There were many.

[quote]and also this

deutermony 22 kjv

20But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:

21Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the "No name calling" in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.[/quote]

Here she is not a single woman. She is a married women. if the sin of fornication did not have a married woman in the equation, then there was no death penalty. Once she is married, then she comes under the death penalty law of adultery.

[quote]22If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.[/quote]

Here is an excellent example. The woman is married. They shall both be put to death.


[quote]do we really want a theocracy like this from another era? that chapter has a contraversial vs to it that im sure none would want.
[/quote]

I've already addressed this. Do you know what a "theocracy" is? I'm beginning to think you don't.

And you have not answered my question as to why you are offended by God's law in Lev. 20:13?

TeeJay

#53 Teejay

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 09:05 PM

[quote] name='jason' timestamp='1313290632' post='74107']
ok. well then the population of american church would be zero. and do you really think that the govt could be that efficient when often men die of natural causes on death row?

no appeals. your are guilty and that it? men do lie on charges(salem witch trial)

uh we won the war agaisnt germaney due to a g*y man, who figured out the enigma machines.

guess we should have killed before he had the chance to do that.

pick your battles wisely is all im saying. theres no evidence in the nt that the church did what you say.

heres a big problem with your logic

lets say we are protestant and all of canada is catholic and they send missionaries. is this still relavant.

heretics were killed, if a man says lets go serve another god then we shall at the mouth of three witnesees stone him?

yup in our history , sadly, we have that happen. christian sects often say if you dont do as i do you arent saved thus a serveant of the devil. luther killed the jews, the catholics the protestants and vice versa. so you want to go back to that?
[/quote]

Jason, why does God's law offend you? And why do you think that you know better than God?

Let's make it simple: Should murderers be put to death? If not, why not. Please give me scriptural support for your argument. That they may some day invent a perpetual motion machine or find a cure for cancer, or break some kind of secret code or possibly get saved 20 years in the future are not justifications to reinterpret God's simple command to execute criminals worthy of the death penalty. I told you before. Jason's personal opinion matters not one iota. Neither does TeeJay's. Neither does ME's. Neither does Cal's. If our opinions determined law, then we could no longer have moral laws. We would only have preferences.

TeeJay

#54 MamaElephant

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 09:58 PM

why do you think that you know better than God?

Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

#55 jason

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 05:04 AM

no, sir its how you apply that, so the fact that its ok for fornication to be permissable and that isnt what God slays men for?
really?

so the ten commandements given to jews dont apply?

that verse i quoted to you states this.

she wasnt a virgin she died as not being a virgin.


again paul disagreed.

romans 1:

28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29Being filled with all unrighteousness, FORNICATION, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them


WELL THEN. we have a list, gossipers deserved death! fornicators. wickedness is general and includes anything that can be sinful that is so in principal.

paul would agree with my positon.

NO, I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ONLY YOU WANTING TO KILLS G*ys.


i know what a theocracy is. we had them, the purtians did what you said.

they killed witches. know any?

do you have a problem with God's law? he said they should die.


but i see your saying because God killed the sodomites that this is only the sin that we should push for the death penalty towards the gentiles.


but lets do a word study

jude

6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

7Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire


odd God judged them for fornication, and you say that we shouldnt ask for them to be put to death.i see a double standard. oh its ok to commit fornication but not h*m*s*xuality.

God isnt like us, he is just. you and i arent. that is why i am acting this way because i see it clearly, you judge ONLY THE G*ys. NOT all sinners listed romans 1. paul these that do these are all worthy of death. you say only the G*ys.


paul, wrote as inspired by God. you say opposite.

in jude that word fornicate is ekporneo meaning to give onself to fornication and to be unchaste.

and then theres this

in greek that word strange flesh is this.

probably from the base of sarow - saroo 4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), i.e. (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred), or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specially), a human being (as such):--carnal(-ly, + -ly minded), flesh(-ly).


so what you are saying may not be the only reason sodoma and gommorah are judged.no sir you judge unfairly and only agiasnt one group. if we are to do as you say and then it has to be fair and equally applied to all sins listed that are worthy of death in the ot and nt.


not just G*ys.

i could and i should show evidence that the death penalty hasnt worked. i looked the the stats. it was interesting.

#56 Teejay

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 09:05 AM

[quote] name='jason' timestamp='1313288883' post='74105']
paul felt that but would teejay execute said criminals that day? one time only to repent. i have a saying never ask somebody to do something you either wont do or if you cant support it.[/quote]

Jason, you've given this argument several times now, i.e., they may repent in the future. You can't possibly know if they will. And if you use this criteria, then no one would ever be put to death. God can't possibly know if they will repent in the future. Now you asked if I could execute a criminal. If I was authorized ty the government, I could. I do not have authority to do so without authorization from the government. But give me a Catholic priest who has sodomized numerous little boys, and I could execute him and have a good meal and a good night of uninterupted sleep. But I would witness to him first.

[quote]has teejay watched men die in person by his hands. it makes one callous.[/quote]

TeeJay was in a small shooting war in North Africa, TeeJay was in Vietnam, and TeeJay was a law enforcement officer. I've seen men die.

[quote]you doubt war has done this to me. i expercienced no emotions nor sorrow at a first reaction to the seal team 6. its war they died it happens is my thoughts. i had to be chastisted by a marine gunny to remember what the lord did do.[/quote]

Just don't let Hollywood psycho-babble influence you. There is nothing wrong with killing bad guys or enemies who are trying to destroy us. I had a partner who shot a criminal who was trying to kill him. He said that he felt absolute no remorse. He was elated tha he got to go home to his family that day.


[quote]when you can take a life from someone who harms none by death or isnt a threat anymore to anyone and is being sentenced to death you have to wonder is this right.[/quote]

You only have to wonder if you ignore what God has to say about it. What God has to say about it is giving you heartburn for some reason.

[quote]i am pro death penalty but i also know that what is asked of the guards by their admissions isnt easy, they feel guilt in doing it, for if they day we forget we have taken a life even if moral we have forgotten why we must fight agaisnt murder.
[/quote]

If you agreed with God instead of Hollywood, you wouldn't have this phoney dilemma.

TeeJay

#57 jason

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 09:27 AM

hollywood, seriosus, i am not talking about obl, but the team that wash shot down.

i didnt concern myself with that.


no. sir i have looked at stats i live in a pro-death penalty state, we have men who kiled 40 yrs ago and await the chair.

40 yrs. three appeals and all turned dowsn, then we have men who were killed in the chair exonerated.

phony dillemma? really i watched a documentary on that.


so i should pick up a gun kill you if you lie and have glee that justice was served. i know cops that have killed and left being a cop, they dont regret their job but they didnt want to do it again.


http://www.opposingv...er-murder-rates

http://www.personal....athPenalty.html

studies done say otherwise.

like i said i live in florida that has the chair, murders have gone up and up since i was a kid. i dint stop adam walsh's killer whose head was found in my county and walsh lives in my county. met him twice.


i find it odd that you only want G*ys dead, not any of the other liars or does this verse apply?

psalms 82:2

you will let the fornicator live, the liar, the witch but not the G*ys.

#58 Teejay

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 09:42 AM

[quote] name='jason' timestamp='1313290632' post='74107']
ok. well then the population of american church would be zero. and do you really think that the govt could be that efficient when often men die of natural causes on death row?[/quote]

Criminals deserving the death penalty in accordance with God's law should be executed after a careful enquiry by the judge. By the mouth of two or three witnesses guilt is established. The criminal should be put to death the same day or the day after he is caught. Now the judge can hold off execution if a witness is flying in from Germany, say. But as soon as the judge has enough proof of guilt, the execution should be swift and sure.

[quote]no appeals. your are guilty and that it? men do lie on charges(salem witch trial)[/quote]

If God's death penalty was enforced for capital perjury--which is death==we wouldnot have anyone lying in a capital crime (Deut. 19:16-21; Ex. 20:16). God's death penalty for capital perjury is not enforced in America. Go to any courthouse in any city in America and ask when the last time someone was prosecuted for perjury. To answer you, they would have to go to some depository and search in dusty archives to find one. Enforcement of this simple law would do away with "expert witnesses" who are paid by attornies to lie for them.

[quote]uh we won the war agaisnt germaney due to a g*y man, who figured out the enigma machines.[/quote]

Jason, you should think these things through a bit more. Did being a H*mos*xual give him some special brain power to be able to crack codes? Could he have done it had he been a happily married Christian with a nice family? What should concern you is not the fact that he helped us win WW II but did he go to heaven or hell. Had God's law on h*m*s*xuality been taught to him as a child, and had he been raised in a good church, then perhaps he could have cracked the code and and gone to heaven too. Wouldn't that have been better?

[quote]guess we should have killed before he had the chance to do that.[/quote]

Jason, I can only answer so many of these "what if's."

[quote]pick your battles wisely is all im saying. theres no evidence in the nt that the church did what you say.[/quote]

Jason be specific. I posted much on this thread?

[quote]heres a big problem with your logic

lets say we are protestant and all of canada is catholic and they send missionaries. is this still relavant.[/quote]

God does not want you to bother your head by this.

[quote]heretics were killed, if a man says lets go serve another god then we shall at the mouth of three witnesees stone him?[/quote]

For Israel this was true. They were under a special covenant with God. You are not.

[quote]yup in our history , sadly, we have that happen. christian sects often say if you dont do as i do you arent saved thus a serveant of the devil. luther killed the jews, the catholics the protestants and vice versa. so you want to go back to that?
[/quote]]

What has all this got to do with God's commands to execute people for capital crimes?

Jason, I'm finished answering your "what-if" quesions.

TeeJay

#59 jason

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 09:56 AM

not what if's history

do i have to walk you through the past?

so you think that these are worthy of death


idol worshippiong
witches
heresy
lying
etc per lists of ot and romans 1.

in this past this idea has been done. what do you think europe was until the age of reason etc? religous wars? heard of them the crusades etc. surely you dont think that we a christian judges are just going to say europe you can have all the sin you want, and they wont influence us.out of mouths of two or three? really, witness dont lie? they are often unrelaiable in some cases.


,

#60 Teejay

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 10:06 AM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1313285572' post='74100']
Your earlier post seemed to say that you were concerned with h*m*sexuals repenting. But your current stand seems to say the opposite. I thank the Lord that I was not put to death 7 years ago. He has let me live long enough to find Him and repent.
[/quote]

ME,

I, and God, desire that all men repent and be saved. But sadly, most don't. Jesus said that his door was narrow and few would enter. But we have to reason what will bring in a bigger harvest--obeying God's law or disregarding it. God's law has two purposes and two only. The first purpose is to deter criminals. Moses and Solomon both said that if there is swift and just punishment, then "men will hear and fear and not act presumptiously." The second purpose is to convict men in their hearts and show them the need for a Savior. Paul said that the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ. And he said that the law is good if one uses it lawfully.

Jason argues that if he had been put to death, then he would not have had time to repent. He can't really know that. He could have repented one minute before his execution (like the thief on the cross). But God reasons that if His law is enforced, then Jason may not have sinned in the first place and he would not have had to repent of his crime. And God can't give us the freedom to hate Him or love Him and then know what Jason will do in the future. Not even God can know that. That violates the laws of logic. God can't violate His own logic laws and remain logical.

TeeJay




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