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#21 Geode

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 04:37 AM

I understand what you are saying, but I personally have more than the Bible for proof, and if asked why I hold the faith that I have I will cite more than the Bible. I have had the witness of the Holy Spirit and very direct and obvious answers to my prayers.


I solidly agree with what you have posted in this reply.

#22 Teejay

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 06:41 AM

[quote]name='Geode' timestamp='1317123431' post='75178']
I solidly agree with what you have posted in this reply.
[/quote]

Geode (and ME),

How can you know that what the Holy Spirit tells you is true?

TeeJay

#23 AFJ

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 02:09 PM

The word has no effect on me because I don't believe that it is true - it has nothing to do with my heart, it only pumps blood.

But we are praying God will show you. He can show you, all we can do is tesify to you. Mama has testified of the witness of the spirit inside of her, and I also. Even if you say that's all in our mind, then how do explain the miracles and healings in the Name of Jesus that I have SEEN with my own eyes. I have seen divine protection with my own eyes. And I have heard the same testimony of other believers. God won't jump in your face, and say I'm here. He'll send you someone to tell you first. In fact, I believe you are being drawn and don't even realize it.

As for "heart." You seem to know the Bible, so you would know "heart" is figurative, and means who your inner soul man.


As for refuting Peter, I'm not sure you fully understand what I'm saying about divine inspiration. I don't think the authors were divinely inspired, so in my mind Peter can be (and is!) as wrong about his interpretation of Psalms 16:10 as I believe you are about your interpretation of the Olivet discourse.

If you want an off-the-cuff reason for why David's body saw corruption, might I suggest that it was because he was a murderer and adulterer :)

Romans 3:10 There is none good, no not one... Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. We will all see corruption. But Jesus is the ressurection and the life.

I don't believe in Hell, but my perception of it - in the NT at least - is one of eternal torment, not annihilation or destruction.

Then there is no decay of the soul in Hades, the grave, or hell after death. You interpret it to be eternal, which I agree with. Then Peter has basis from which to make his arguement. The Psalm is talking about physical decay. It is a hidden prophecy within the Psalm, and not uncommon.

Above all I want to challenge myself on my beliefs, and challenge others on theirs. I'm astounded that about a third of the world believes it, and another third believe something similar to it, and I really want to know why. I think most people dismiss Christianity and Christians as "deluded lunatics", but I guess I owe it to my wife to take it seriously. Unfortunately for her, my studies have taken me far in the opposite direction ...

LOL, Sorry roohif. So your saying your wife is a Christian? Well then, someone is praying for you. As for the delusion of Christians, it's kind of like the following scenario.

Say you are a skeptic of UFO's (not saying I believe in UFO's or not--it's an illustration). You laugh at the idea. Then one night, while driving, you see an unexplainable bright object in the middle of the road, and your car shuts off. It pulsates light and then streaks off over the horizon within 5 seconds. Now you go tell your friends, and they tell you what? You need to go see a shrink cause your seeing things.

Well, I've seen the Lord work powerfully, and I'm certainly not alone. But others haven't yet, or they have and don't perceive it. So it's natural for them to see me as deluded, when the fact is they just haven't experienced what I and many others have.

#24 MamaElephant

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 07:34 PM

Geode (and ME),

How can you know that what the Holy Spirit tells you is true?

TeeJay

Does the Bible answer my prayers and hold me in the light? There were feelings about different people and issues that started to change the minute I was born again.
I am not saying that the Bible isn't important. I received the Spirit in response to Bible reading. I can walk in the Spirit, and follow His leadings because I keep reading the Bible and being filled with the knowledge of God. But as you can see by the verse quoted in my signature, Bible scholarship is not what grants us life.

There are bible scholars, theologians, ministers and priests that do not walk in the Spirit.

#25 Geode

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 10:47 PM

Teejay, on 27 September 2011 - 06:41 AM, said:

Geode (and ME),

How can you know that what the Holy Spirit tells you is true?

TeeJay



I think there is good advice from James:

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.


So James tells us that in seeking wisdom from God, that He will provide it.

Does the Bible answer my prayers and hold me in the light? There were feelings about different people and issues that started to change the minute I was born again.

I am not saying that the Bible isn't important. I received the Spirit in response to Bible reading. I can walk in the Spirit, and follow His leadings because I keep reading the Bible and being filled with the knowledge of God. But as you can see by the verse quoted in my signature, Bible scholarship is not what grants us life.

Does the Bible answer my prayers and hold me in the light? There were feelings about different people and issues that started to change the minute I was born again.
I am not saying that the Bible isn't important. I received the Spirit in response to Bible reading. I can walk in the Spirit, and follow His leadings because I keep reading the Bible and being filled with the knowledge of God. But as you can see by the verse quoted in my signature, Bible scholarship is not what grants us life.

There are bible scholars, theologians, ministers and priests that do not walk in the Spirit.


Being born again is a process that involves the Holy Spirit. The Bible on its own cannot bring about this spiritual process. For me when I am guided by the Holy Spirit it is often to show me answers and guidance through the scriptures. I find that I seek or understand better a portion of the Bile that I am being guided towards.

I think it somewhat like waht is expressed in the closing line of "The Polar Express"...

At one time most of my friends could hear the bell, but as years passed it fell silent for all of them. Even Sarah found one Christmas that she could no longer hear its sweet sound. Though I've grown old the bell still rings for me, as it does for all who truly believe.


No, I am not equating a belief in Santa Claus with faith in God. It is just that some do not seek the help of God, and are receiving the benefit from the Holy Spirit that is promised them. We should be open to hearing the bell, with is symbolic of maintaining faith and being open to the pormptings of the Holy Spirit.

#26 MamaElephant

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 07:15 AM

Being born again is a process that involves the Holy Spirit. The Bible on its own cannot bring about this spiritual process. For me when I am guided by the Holy Spirit it is often to show me answers and guidance through the scriptures. I find that I seek or understand better a portion of the Bible that I am being guided towards.

Exactly.

#27 ikester7579

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 07:29 AM

Wow. Certainly not the response that I was expecting :)

I had not heard of Open Theism before, but from the very little I have read of it so far, I like it. It gets around some of the objections that atheists make in regard to the Free Will vs Predestination/Determinism problem, but there is one issue I think that might still cause a problem:

Deuteronomy 18:21-22 - You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?” If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.

I did a very quick search through the links you provided and couldn't find any references to that passage. Thoughts and feelings?

For what it's worth, I would still like people to respond to the original question - how exactly do you interpret these apocalyptic verses to come to a different conclusion?


This is also why it is said that only God the Father knows the time of the return. Because the condition of man determines this, so there can be no set exact time, date, or what ever. We can only know that we are close by the signs the Bible gives us.

Because man has freewill, his condition as a whole (the whole earth) is being determined by him. Like when the judgment came during the flood. Man determined it to happen by allowing his condition to become so evil that only 8 were allowed to survive. If man had not become so evil back then, the flood would not have happened because judgment would not have been needed,

So today man is also determining his own judgment and when it will happen. When evil upon the earth gets as bad as it did back in Noah's day, the rapture will happen and judgment will come in the tribulation for those left behind. But here's something else to ponder. What if man, as a whole, turned back to God and evil was not as rampant upon the earth as it is now? God says that He will forgive man and will heal their land. So by what we do as a whole determines what will happen, and when it will happen. So like the Bible says: No man knows the day nor the hour of his coming. Only the Father knows. And man's freewill to control his own condition as a whole is why.

So anyone whom claims to know the day, year, or hour is lying.

#28 Teejay

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 07:09 AM

Does the Bible answer my prayers and hold me in the light? There were feelings about different people and issues that started to change the minute I was born again.


ME,

Geode could claim the same things that you wrote above. He received a “burning in the bosom” which he wrongly perceived was the Holy Spirit. Christians forget that there are demons who masquerade as angels of light. And Jesus said that “man’s heart is deceitful above all things.”

If you rely only on the Holy Spirit, then that is only one witness. Jesus said, “If I bear witness of Myself, my witness is not true” (John 5:31). In the Old Testament, a matter was established by the mouth of two or three witnesses (Deut. 17:6). Many false prophets have come bearing witnesses of themselves. Just to name a few, we have Mohammed who bore witness of himself and we now have millions who worship a false pagan moon god named Allah. Joseph Smith bore witness of himself, and millions of Mormons worship a false jesus who does not exist. Russell bore witness of himself and we have the JW’s.

Jesus did not bear witness of Himself. He used God’s word by quoting the Torah and the Greek Septuagint. He reminded the Pharisees that they “look to Moses, but it is Moses who testifies of Me.” He used Scripture to rebuke Satan. Then He pointed out that not only did He bear witness of Himself but Father God, the Holy Spirit, and His miracles bore witness of Him. Without the Bible, you could not know that anything was true or false. The Bible will never disagree with the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit will never disagree with the Bible. This is how you can know that a teaching is true or false.

Before Jesus was crucified and ascended, He promised His apostles that the Holy Spirit would tell them what to say and enlighten them. That promise was not made to us. We have the Bible, and Peter admonishes us to be ready to defend the faith. And Paul admonished us to “study to show ourselves approved.

The reason for this thread is a lack of Bible knowledge. A careful study of the New Testament reveals so plainly that Jesus was to come back to Israel in seven years, Israel was to get their kingdom. But Israel was cut off for unbelief. So instead of Christians reading and studying their Bibles, we have Replacement Theology and Israel getting a heavenly kingdom instead of an earthly kingdom—both false doctrines.

I am not saying that the Bible isn't important. I received the Spirit in response to Bible reading. I can walk in the Spirit, and follow His leadings because I keep reading the Bible and being filled with the knowledge of God. But as you can see by the verse quoted in my signature, Bible scholarship is not what grants us life.


The Bible is all important. Unless you accept Jesus Christ, you can’t receive the Holy Spirit. No one can come to God except through Jesus Christ. When we accept Jesus, the Holy Spirit baptizes us into the Body of Christ where we are sealed, and then the Holy Spirit takes up residence within us.

But how do we receive Jesus? By faith. How do we get faith? “So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the WORD of God” (Rom. 10:17). To walk in the Spirit and not put ourselves under the law, we first have to read Paul’s letters. Without Paul’s letters and God’s dispensation of grace to him, we would still be under the law and not saved by grace.

There are bible scholars, theologians, ministers and priests that do not walk in the Spirit.


I agree whole heartedly with this. But I must point out that Paul was a Bible scholar, a Pharisee of Pharisees; yet he was able to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh. And he admonished us to “study to show ourselves approved.”

TeeJay

#29 Teejay

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 07:44 AM

[quote] name='Geode' timestamp='1317188845' post='75193']
I think there is good advice from James:

So James tells us that in seeking wisdom from God, that He will provide it.[/quote]

Geode,

Jesus said, "No one comes to the Father except through Me." You have not accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. You have accepted a Mormon jesus who does not exist--a Morman jesus that you refuse to denounce publically on this thread. I asked this before and I ask it again: Will you join me in pubically denouncing the false Mormon jesus?

To have the Holy Spirit, you must first accept the true Jesus Christ for He will send you the Holy Spirit. But the true Jesus Christ will not accept you unless you humble yourself and denounce the false Mormon jesus which you have accepted and now worship. Unless you do this, you can't come to Jesus. Unless you accept Jesus, you can't get the Holy Spirit. And unless you get the Holy Spirit, you can't possibly get wisdom.

The Mormon jusus described by the Mormon Church is contradictory to the true Jesus Christ described in the Bible. By definition, two contradictions can't both be true. That's not possible. Do you agree with this?


[quote]Being born again is a process that involves the Holy Spirit. The Bible on its own cannot bring about this spiritual process. For me when I am guided by the Holy Spirit it is often to show me answers and guidance through the scriptures. I find that I seek or understand better a portion of the Bile that I am being guided towards.

I think it somewhat like waht is expressed in the closing line of "The Polar Express"...



No, I am not equating a belief in Santa Claus with faith in God. It is just that some do not seek the help of God, and are receiving the benefit from the Holy Spirit that is promised them. We should be open to hearing the bell, with is symbolic of maintaining faith and being open to the pormptings of the Holy Spirit.
[/quote]

Salvation is not a process. No where in the Bible does it say that salvation is a "process." Here's what it is:

Salvation

What I am now about to tell you will seem too good to be true. You will say "It just can’t be that simple.”

But if you don’t believe me, then tear all of Paul’s letters out of the Bible.

"But what does it say? ... (that is, the word of faith which we preach); that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation” (Rom. 10:9-10).

When we make this prayer of faith, Paul writes:

“For by one Spirit we were all baptized into the Body—whether Jews or Greeks [Gentiles], whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.” 1 Cor. 12:13

Once in the Body of Christ, we are secure. We cannot lose our salvation!

“In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee [down payment] of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession [our bodies at the rapture] to the praise of His glory”. Eph. 1:13-14

“There is one Body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.” Eph. 4:4-6

After praying the prayer of salvation, your name is recorded in the Lamb’s Book of Life. You are an heir. Imagine hearing that your rich uncle mentioned you in his will. You would immediately read the will to see what you are entitled to. When you pray this prayer, you are mentioned in God’s will--Paul’s writings. Read them carefully! There are numerous blessings. But you can’t receive them if you are ignorant of them.
Now, when someone asks you, “If you died right now, would you go to heaven or hell?” you can confidently and joyfully answer, “Most assuredly. I have humbled myself before God and admitted I am a lost sinner. I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, and I have accepted His sacrifice on the cross as more than sufficient payment for my sins—past, present, and future. I am washed in the blood of Christ. If I died with Him, I shall also live with Him forever. Oh Death, where is thy sting.”

TeeJay

#30 Teejay

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 08:00 AM

[quote] name='ikester7579' timestamp='1317220190' post='75206']
This is also why it is said that only God the Father knows the time of the return. Because the condition of man determines this, so there can be no set exact time, date, or what ever. We can only know that we are close by the signs the Bible gives us.

Because man has freewill, his condition as a whole (the whole earth) is being determined by him. Like when the judgment came during the flood. Man determined it to happen by allowing his condition to become so evil that only 8 were allowed to survive. If man had not become so evil back then, the flood would not have happened because judgment would not have been needed,

So today man is also determining his own judgment and when it will happen. When evil upon the earth gets as bad as it did back in Noah's day, the rapture will happen and judgment will come in the tribulation for those left behind. But here's something else to ponder. What if man, as a whole, turned back to God and evil was not as rampant upon the earth as it is now? God says that He will forgive man and will heal their land. So by what we do as a whole determines what will happen, and when it will happen. So like the Bible says: No man knows the day nor the hour of his coming. Only the Father knows. And man's freewill to control his own condition as a whole is why.

So anyone whom claims to know the day, year, or hour is lying.
[/quote]


Ikester,

At last there is someone who sees this as I do. For centuries, theologians have pondered as to why Jesus Christ, who is God, did not know the time of His second coming. The reason is (I think) that Jesus' return was contingent on Israel's acceptance or rejection of their risen Messiah. According to Peter in Acts, the authority to send Jesus back was in the hands of the Father and was contingent on Israel's acceptance of their risen Messiah (Acts 3:19-21). So one could argue that God the Father did not know either. That decision was future and contingent on what Israel would do, as a nation.

Today, 2,000 years later, the decision is still in the hands of the Father, and is contingent on our actions. Paul writes that the rapture will occur "when the fulness of the Gentiles has come in [to the Body of Christ]." The quicker we evangelize the quicker the fulness of the Gentiles will come to pass. How many members of the Body constitute the "fulness of the Gentiles"? Only the Father knows? That's His decision to make.

TeeJay

#31 Teejay

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 08:11 AM

Exactly.


ME,

Why did you agree with Geode? A careful reading of your Bible and then a comparison with the teachings of the Mormon Church reveals that Geode can't possibly be "guided by the Holy Spirit." To get the gift of the Holy Spirit, one must first accept the true Jesus Christ. Geode accepted a false jesus who does not exist when he was a Mormon--a false jesus which he now refuses to denounce publically on this thread.

This is why the Bible is so important. Without it, we can only reach truth by accident.

Also, salvation is not a "process." Please read my Post 29 to Geode.

TeeJay

#32 Teejay

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 08:35 AM

Roohif said:
"The word has no effect on me because I don't believe that it is true."



Questions:

Do you believe that only the material universe exists?

If not, what else exists?

TeeJay

#33 ikester7579

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 12:54 PM

Ikester,

At last there is someone who sees this as I do. For centuries, theologians have pondered as to why Jesus Christ, who is God, did not know the time of His second coming. The reason is (I think) that Jesus' return was contingent on Israel's acceptance or rejection of their risen Messiah. According to Peter in Acts, the authority to send Jesus back was in the hands of the Father and was contingent on Israel's acceptance of their risen Messiah (Acts 3:19-21). So one could argue that God the Father did not know either. That decision was future and contingent on what Israel would do, as a nation.

Today, 2,000 years later, the decision is still in the hands of the Father, and is contingent on our actions. Paul writes that the rapture will occur "when the fulness of the Gentiles has come in [to the Body of Christ]." The quicker we evangelize the quicker the fulness of the Gentiles will come to pass. How many members of the Body constitute the "fulness of the Gentiles"? Only the Father knows? That's His decision to make.

TeeJay


If the modern churches would quit promoting spectating and get their congregation to do something, things would not be as bad as they are. What I mean by spectating is saying that: Don't feel bad if you cannot get involved, just send us the money and we will do God's work for you and because you gave you will be a part of it... I have yet to see that written anywhere in God's word.

Example: Will we get crowns for doing the kingdom work, or paying someone else to do it?

Jesus did not give his disciples money to do his work, neither did Jesus tell his disciples to find someone and pay them to do their work. In fact I have yet to see one of these preachers that say send the money and you will be part of what we do, actually prove this with scripture.

Sure people are getting saved doing this. But there is no excuse for "able" bodied people paying someone else to do their kingdom works. Now if a person is disabled as I currently am, then I could see that it would be doing God's will to pay someone to do something they cannot do. But I certainly don;t know what an able bodied person is going to say to God when they have no kingdom works to show because they depended on someone else to do it.

Remember the judgment where the works "we do" get tested by fire? I wonder how paid for works will hold up for people who were able but were to lazy?

#34 AFJ

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 12:57 PM

ME,

Geode could claim the same things that you wrote above. He received a “burning in the bosom” which he wrongly perceived was the Holy Spirit. Christians forget that there are demons who masquerade as angels of light. And Jesus said that “man’s heart is deceitful above all things.”

If you rely only on the Holy Spirit, then that is only one witness. Jesus said, “If I bear witness of Myself, my witness is not true” (John 5:31). In the Old Testament, a matter was established by the mouth of two or three witnesses (Deut. 17:6). Many false prophets have come bearing witnesses of themselves. Just to name a few, we have Mohammed who bore witness of himself and we now have millions who worship a false pagan moon god named Allah. Joseph Smith bore witness of himself, and millions of Mormons worship a false jesus who does not exist. Russell bore witness of himself and we have the JW’s.

Jesus did not bear witness of Himself. He used God’s word by quoting the Torah and the Greek Septuagint. He reminded the Pharisees that they “look to Moses, but it is Moses who testifies of Me.” He used Scripture to rebuke Satan. Then He pointed out that not only did He bear witness of Himself but Father God, the Holy Spirit, and His miracles bore witness of Him. Without the Bible, you could not know that anything was true or false. The Bible will never disagree with the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit will never disagree with the Bible. This is how you can know that a teaching is true or false.

Teejay,
I have to agree with you--good points. But one should be able to discern the Holy Spirit if he has grown in Christ. False spirits can come but we are to test them with the word, because the Spirit is God, and the Spirit of truth. We have the same Spirit dwelling in our hearts as the apostles--maybe not the same measure--but we should as Christians be able to discern by the fruits He produces in our life (i.e. our actions are either motivated by our flesh, or the Holy Spirit). And the leadings, tasks, messages, or impressions we receive from him will be in the fruit of the Spirit, and in agreement with God's word.

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.



Teejay--Before Jesus was crucified and ascended, He promised His apostles that the Holy Spirit would tell them what to say and enlighten them. That promise was not made to us.

I have to disagree on this one, I believe it was made to us. I believe you are referring to Acts 1:8

Acts 1:8 But you will receive power ("dunamis"-gr strength power) when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

He is most definitely talking to his disciples there, but that does not exclude us from the strength power of the Holy Spirit, because we are also called to take the gospel to the ends of the earth. If you look at Act's 2:38,39 Peter says...

Acts 2:38 “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

The promise of the same dunamis power (again not in the measure of the apostles) is for all who the Lord our God shall call. I thank God for that power when we went witnessing in the streets in America, and preaching in Africa. I needed the power of the Lord for faith and boldness against the spirit of unbelief all around. Ocassionally, the Lord would open a door for us to pray for sick people, and they would be healed--it was the Lord. Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever! Heb. 13:8

This should be normal! We are supposed to be concerned with spreading the gospel, but too many times Christians (including myself) get comfortable, and say my 4 and no more. No wonder people believe in evolution. We're not doing our job many times.
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#35 roohif

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 03:12 PM

Do you believe that only the material universe exists?


Yes, although I do allow for the possibility that something exists outside of this universe.

If not, what else exists?


As above, I'm not convinced that there is anything outside this material universe.

I'm curious where these questions are coming from though. How are you going to get from "There must be a creator God" to "Therefore Jesus is his son and died for our sins"? To cut to the chase, and save you some time: I think it's possible that there is a creator (although I don't "believe" there is); I "know" that the Bible is false, and I "know" that common descent is true. Normally I'd say that I'd be happy to demonstrate why, but in recent debates I've begun to question whether there is any point ... outside of pushing my opponent into a position he knows is unreasonable.

#36 roohif

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 04:20 PM

Evolutionists date bones by the earth they are found in and date the earth by the bones. Go figure!

Is that what you actually believe, or was it just an offhand remark? I think I'm now more interested in the psychology of believers than I am in the apologetics / counter-apologetics ..

#37 supamk3speed

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 09:14 PM

The only way you could ever understand is completely impossible for you at this point. The way you asked about our psychology feels like a poorly disguised insult. I pray one day you will see the truth. I tell the truth my friend, the grass is most definately greener on our side.

#38 ikester7579

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 10:59 PM

The only way you could ever understand is completely impossible for you at this point. The way you asked about our psychology feels like a poorly disguised insult. I pray one day you will see the truth. I tell the truth my friend, the grass is most definately greener on our side.


Atheism requires constant justification for disbelief. This is because they see Christians all around them, so to make themselves feel sure they come up with ways to justify their decisions to disbelieve. To do this effectively they have to come up with questions they know 99.9% of Christians cannot answer. Roohif ran into some of the .1% that could answer his question here at this forum. That was why he was surprised about his responses. And why he won't respond to some of them. To have ones justification put into question is scary because it makes one ponder that they might be wrong. Especially when the answer makes so much sense.

#39 AFJ

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 02:12 AM

Yes, although I do allow for the possibility that something exists outside of this universe.



As above, I'm not convinced that there is anything outside this material universe.

I'm curious where these questions are coming from though. How are you going to get from "There must be a creator God" to "Therefore Jesus is his son and died for our sins"? To cut to the chase, and save you some time: I think it's possible that there is a creator (although I don't "believe" there is); I "know" that the Bible is false, and I "know" that common descent is true. Normally I'd say that I'd be happy to demonstrate why, but in recent debates I've begun to question whether there is any point ... outside of pushing my opponent into a position he knows is unreasonable.

Because the creator "invaded" our dimension. He passed the boundaries of what we can not see and cam into what we see. John 1:14 "The word was made flesh and dwelt among us"...But wait before you ask how I believe that..."and we beheld his glory." Peter Jame and John saw Jesus (wait, please read) on the mount of transfiguration, when the voice came from heaven, "this is my beloved Son in whom I well pleased.

Now your obvious question is how do I believe that testimony over say the testimony of Mohammed who saw an angel--or Joseph Smith. Well, first Mohammed and Smith offer contradicting word. They don't line up with Jesus, so it's either or. So I get to choose. Well you say how do you any of them are true. Well, did you read any of my posts about miracles and answers to prayers.

The problem with unbelief roohif, is that it likes itself. It is comfortable. It's defense is constant questioning and evaluating of anything it doesn't see. So if I tell you something happened, you just naturally question my perception. If a group of us prayed that a thuderstorm quickly coming at us would go around us so that my sister could sing "People Need the Lord" at a town talent contest, and we watched the clouds immediately turn in a nearly perpendicular path, you would either question my sanity, honesty, or since you weren't there to see it--my perception. But my perception hasn't been off multiple times, and I don't go seeking miracles--I just don't limit God--that's a sin--it's called doubt.

#40 MamaElephant

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 02:16 AM

Geode,

Jesus said, "No one comes to the Father except through Me." You have not accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. You have accepted a Mormon jesus who does not exist--a Morman jesus that you refuse to denounce publically on this thread. I asked this before and I ask it again: Will you join me in pubically denouncing the false Mormon jesus?

To have the Holy Spirit, you must first accept the true Jesus Christ for He will send you the Holy Spirit. But the true Jesus Christ will not accept you unless you humble yourself and denounce the false Mormon jesus which you have accepted and now worship. Unless you do this, you can't come to Jesus. Unless you accept Jesus, you can't get the Holy Spirit. And unless you get the Holy Spirit, you can't possibly get wisdom.

This does seem to be the case, but Jesus was with Thomas for years before Thomas fully realized who Jesus was, so I am not positive that all of the details here are exactly right.

Salvation is not a process. No where in the Bible does it say that salvation is a "process." Here's what it is:

Salvation

What I am now about to tell you will seem too good to be true. You will say "It just can’t be that simple.”

But if you don’t believe me, then tear all of Paul’s letters out of the Bible.

I didn't think that Geode was calling salvation a process in the way you are responding to, but that belief that you are addressing is definitely false and dangerous.

You don't need Paul's letters to establish the simplicity of receiving salvation. John 7:37On the last and greatest day of the Feast, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. 38Whoever believes in me, asc the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him.” 39By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

http://www.christian...samaritan-woman

We can also learn a lot from John chapter 4. First: Jesus was telling a Gentile that she could receive the Holy Spirit! Secondly, he told her how to do so. How was that? "If you knew to whom you were speaking" So yes, she needed to know the real Jesus and understand who He was. I needed to understand. I needed to know that Jesus is God. I pray to Jesus and ask Him for the spirit. I can ask Him for forgiveness. Because I understand that all authority is His. Matthew 28:18

"Who is this who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God alone?" ... Jesus responded "... But that you might know the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins" - He said to the man who was paralysed "I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house" Luke 5:20-26


Salvation is not a process. No where in the Bible does it say that salvation is a "process." Here's what it is:


After praying the prayer of salvation, your name is recorded in the Lamb’s Book of Life. You are an heir. Imagine hearing that your rich uncle mentioned you in his will. You would immediately read the will to see what you are entitled to. When you pray this prayer, you are mentioned in God’s will--Paul’s writings. Read them carefully! There are numerous blessings. But you can’t receive them if you are ignorant of them.
Now, when someone asks you, “If you died right now, would you go to heaven or hell?” you can confidently and joyfully answer, “Most assuredly. I have humbled myself before God and admitted I am a lost sinner. I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, and I have accepted His sacrifice on the cross as more than sufficient payment for my sins—past, present, and future. I am washed in the blood of Christ. If I died with Him, I shall also live with Him forever. Oh Death, where is thy sting.”

YES. See: “And this is the witness given, that God gave us everlasting life, and this life is in his Son. He that has the Son has this life; he that does not have the Son of God does not have this life. I write YOU these things that YOU may know that You have life everlasting, You who put YOUR faith in the name of the Son of God.”--1 John 5:11-13




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