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The Second Coming


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#61 Teejay

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 06:10 PM

[quote] name='roohif' timestamp='1317769687' post='75370']
Yeah, so ... about that Second Coming ...
[/quote]

roohif,

As I explained before, let a home-schooled fifth-grader read the gospels and he will tell you that Jesus meant exactly what He said. "There are some standing here who will not see death until you see Me return [paraphrased]." "You will not have gone through the cities of Israel until you see My return." Daniel's 70 week prophecy (490 years) prophesied that Jesus would be come to Israel. He would be crucified, He would rise from the dead. He would then ascend to the Father and Israel would immediately start into their Tribulation (approx. 7 years). Jesus would then return, set up HIs kingdom in Israel with Jesus sitting on King David's throne and the Twelve Apostles ruling over the twelve tribes of Israel. The Kingdom would last 1,000 years, and then God would create a new heaven and a new earth.

This did not happen. Why? Because Jesus' return to Israel was contingent on Israel's acceptance or rejection of their risen Messiah. Israel rejected their Messiah. So, as prophesied in Jermiah 18, God withheld the kingdom from Israel and He cut off Israel for unbelief. God then took Paul, the "apostle to the Gentiles," and went directly to the Gentiles bypassing Israel. But God also gave Paul a different gospel than He had given to Israel (Gal. 2:7-9). He gave Paul the gospel of grace where no law keeping or works are required. We are saved by faith plus nothing (see Rom. 10:9-10).

But Paul writes that he does not want us to be ignorant. True that Israel was cut off, but Paul writes that God will graft them in again and they will get their kingdom. God has a covenant with Abraham that He will keep. When will this happen? Paul writes that "when the fulness of the Gentiles has come in" God will return to Israell.

But first, before He returns to Israel, He has to rapture out the Body of Christ. The Body of Christ consists of members who have accepted Jesus under the Gospel of Uncircumcision or grace when God commissioned Paul and cut off Israel. Paul writes that we are saved "from the wrath that is to come." The wrath that is to come is the Times of Jacob's Trouble or the Tribulation described in Tribulation. What constitutes the "fulness of the Gentiles"? Only the Father knows, Jesus says.

Now you, roohif, will not escape the "wrath that is to come." Why? Because you have not accepted Jesus in accordance with Rom. 10:9-10. If you have any small children or grandchildren, they will be raptured, but you will stay here. If your wife is saved, she will be gone from you. Then your salvation will not be by grace. You will be under the law and condemned by it. If you are killed during the Tribulation, which will most likely happen, then you will immediately go to hell to await judgment at the Great White Throne. Although you fate is sealed, in that you are damned to an eternity in hell apart from your Creator God, family, friends, the judgment is to let you know why you are sentenced to hell. No person will go to hell not knowing why he is damned. You will be judged under the law.

I doubt very seriously if you will ever accept God. I presented you with a dilemma as to how laws of logic and rational thought can come from reasonless,lifeless matter. You chose not to answer. I know why. There is no answer. Atheism is indefensible because it is not based on truth.

Question for you: Is atheism logical?

To leave you without excuse on Judgment Day, I will post for you how to obtain salvation. The choice is yours.

Salvation

What I am now about to tell you will seem too good to be true. You will say, “it just can’t be that simple.” But if you don’t believe me, then tear all of Paul’s letters out of the Bible.

But what does it [the word] say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach); that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus Christ [that Jesus Christ is God] and believe in your heart that God [the Father] has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation” (Rom. 10:9-10).
When we make this prayer of faith, Paul writes:

“For by one Spirit we were all baptized into the Body—whether Jews or Greeks [Gentiles], whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.” 1 Cor. 12:13

Once in the Body of Christ, we are secure. We cannot lose our salvation!

“In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee [down payment] of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession [our bodies at the rapture] to the praise of His glory”. Eph. 1:13-14

“There is one Body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.” Eph. 4:4-6

After praying the prayer of salvation, your name is recorded in the Lamb’s Book of Life. You are an heir. Imagine hearing that your rich uncle mentioned you in his will. You would immediately read the will to see what you are entitled to. When you pray this prayer, you are mentioned in God’s will--Paul’s writings. Read them carefully! There are numerous blessings. But you can’t receive them if you are ignorant of them.

Now, when someone asks you, “If you died right now, would you go to heaven or hell?” you can confidently and joyfully answer, “Most assuredly. I have humbled myself before God and admitted I am a lost sinner. I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, and I have accepted His sacrifice on the cross as more than sufficient payment for my sins—past, present, and future. I am washed in the blood of Christ. If I died with Him, I shall also live with Him forever. Oh Death, where is thy sting.”

TeeJay

#62 Geode

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 07:33 PM

ME,

Geode is making false claims about Mormonism. I refuse to let him do so. While I have prayed for him and will continue to do so, I will continue to put the truth before him. The Presbyterian minister who accepted him without confronting him as I am doing has done him a great dis-service. That minister should have told him the truth. This is probably the first time that anyone has confronted him with the fact that he is still a Mormon in his heart. I want him to repent and accept the true Jesus who is God and denounce the false jesus that he accepted while a Mormon. Until he does this, he is not saved and if he dies tonight, he will spend an eternity in hell. While it is the Holy Spirit's job to open his heart, it's my job to give him an uncomfortable kidney stone that will not pass until he accepts the true Jesus.

I am an apologist for Jesus Christ and always ready to defend the faith, as Peter admonishes us to do.

TeeJay


No, Geode is making correct claims about Mormonism and TeeJay is making false claims. Once again, you were not present when I talked with that Presbyterian elder and you do not know what was said, although you post as if you know everything discussed. There was no reason for him to confront me since my answers were completely in line with the Bible. Perhaps you would have taken exception to some of it as we both discussed how the Holy Spriit worked in our lives and helped us to be better friends, family members, and neighbors. I never get a sense that you really have the love of Christ in your life from the legalistic style of your posting. You have a sense of God's justice but not of God's mercy.

In threads on another board I have nearly simultaneously been called a Mormon by those posting in opposition to Mormonism and an anti-Mormon by the Mormons whos were posting. You are not unique and I have encountered hard-hearted Christians such as yourself before, who are so busy preaching off a high horse that they really do not listen to anything others are saying. In reality on that other board what I was posting had bothered both "camps" because I was more detached and objective that those strongly on either side were being. Your posts lack objectivity as well as truth and accuracy.

I have accepted Jesus, as I have posted repeatedly. Your claims to the contrary cannot alter this fact. It is you that are in need of repentence, as you repeatedly insist upon bearing false witness against me.

Your analogy about a kidney stone is somewhat appropriate in that you are an irritation. I have to wonder how many people you have encountered in your life became irritated and were less open to accepting Christ after you had taken this sort of approach.

#63 Geode

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 07:38 PM

Geode,

We're making some progress! With equivocation, you're admitting that the Mormon Church's "claim of exclusivity on Christ was not correct." But what I would like you to proclaim is that the Mormon jesus is a false god who does not exist. Why is this so difficult for you to do? Any saved Christian on this site should have no difficulty with this. Geode, questions:

Is the Jesus the brother of Satan? a) Yes. B) No.
Is Jesus God? a) Yes. B) No.
Is Jesus the One who is, who was, and who is to come? a) Yes. B) No.

And I will join you in denouncing any sect that disagrees with the Bible or the God of the Bible.



Jesus comes to everyone who accepts Him in accordance with Romans 10:9-10. So, your senior pastor was ecumenical. I interpret this to mean "we accept everyone." But Jesus Christ said that He was the truth. Truth by definition is exclusive. Any belief that contradicts Jesus and the Bible can't be true. If the Bible says that h*m*sexuals should be put to death, then any "sect" that says otherwise is a false sect and is contrary to God's word. Jesus says that "My word is true." So any teaching contrary to the Word is false. So you agree?

"What I think Christ intends for His church..." What you or I "think" does not matter one bit. It's what Christ "says" is what is true.

Why do you think that a sermon void of politics is a good thing?

It is not possible for a Mormon to be "Christ-centered." Why? Because the Mormon jesus does not exist and is a false god? Will you admit this?

And you have lost sight of "what's important," the true Jesus Christ who is the God who is, who was, and is to come. Do you agree?



God told Abraham to separate himself from his family who were pagan worshippers. God expects no less of you who refuse to denounce the pagan jesus of Mormonism. I'm getting tired of asking. Either denounce this false jesus or at least tell me that you refuse to do so.

TeeJay


I started out making a reply and was answering all these questions. Then an echo started sounding in my head and I knew that I had already answered most if not all of this before, and more than once. The forum rules have guidance against needless repetition and wasting time. You have repeated the same questions over and over and my answering them yet again would be wasting my time, and that of anybody else reading this thread. In addition I have started to notice that you avoid answering questions I have asked you, so this does not feel like an honest discussion.

#64 Geode

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 08:04 PM

ME,

Geode could claim the same things that you wrote above. He received a “burning in the bosom” which he wrongly perceived was the Holy Spirit. Christians forget that there are demons who masquerade as angels of light. And Jesus said that “man’s heart is deceitful above all things.”


Why do you persist in telling flasehoods about me? I have never posted here that I received a "burning in the bosom" and have never made that claim in my entire life. Perhaps this made me a poor Mormon, because many of them do claim this.

Exodus 20:16
Deuteronomy 5:20

#65 MamaElephant

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 01:32 AM

Your analogy about a kidney stone is somewhat appropriate in that you are an irritation. I have to wonder how many people you have encountered in your life became irritated and were less open to accepting Christ after you had taken this sort of approach.

I completely agree.

Yeah, so ... about that Second Coming ...

If the Spirit grants me understanding, I will let you know. In the meantime I am happy to worship Christ because I have unconditional love and peace for the first time in my life due to the fact that He is with me. :)

#66 roohif

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 04:55 AM

This did not happen. Why? Because Jesus' return to Israel was contingent on Israel's acceptance or rejection of their risen Messiah. Israel rejected their Messiah. So, as prophesied in Jermiah 18, God withheld the kingdom from Israel and He cut off Israel for unbelief.


You know full well that Jeremiah 18 is referring to the Babylonian exile, and if any atheist were to take those passages out of context like that you'd be all over it, and rightly so. How it can be interpreted as a Messianic prophecy is beyond me.

What's interesting though is your use of the qualifier - risen Messiah. Since Jesus "was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen - by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead" it would seem near impossible that Israel might accept a risen Messiah, after having rejected him while he was alive, yes? And one might argue that it was actually essential that he be rejected as Messiah for God's plan to be carried out ...

Now you, roohif, will not escape the "wrath that is to come."


Given that the wrath should have come about 1900 years ago, I think I'm pretty safe :)

I doubt very seriously if you will ever accept God. I presented you with a dilemma as to how laws of logic and rational thought can come from reasonless,lifeless matter. You chose not to answer. I know why. There is no answer. Atheism is indefensible because it is not based on truth.


I chose not to answer because I deemed the question unworthy of a response. Is this the first time you've asked an atheist this question?

#67 aelyn

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 07:01 AM

I chose not to answer because I deemed the question unworthy of a response. Is this the first time you've asked an atheist this question?


Let me try ! "I presented you with a dilemma as to how laws of logic and rational thought can come from reasonless,lifeless matter."

Well, the laws of logic seem to be an intrinsic property of the Universe so it certainly wouldn't have come from matter, which is an epiphenomenon of said Universe. And I've never heard of thought, rational or no, occurring in lifeless matter.

Curious, I went back to see what the original dilemma was about and I'm afraid I couldn't help but respond to some first-page stuff.

"In a debate, one is not allowed to use the very evidence that he is attempting to prove is true. For example, if a Mormon used the Book of Mormon to prove the Book of Mormon, this would be circular reasoning."
-> Totally agreed ! Awesome.

"Evolutionists date bones by the earth they are found in and date the earth by the bones. Go figure!"
-> They're not the same earth or the same bones, though. That is, bones can be dated by their stratigraphic layer if the layer's age is known (thanks to other evidence), and a stratigraphic layer can be dated by the fossils it contains if the fossils' age is known (thanks to other evidence). Both are fine as long as the "other evidence" is independent. The circularity would be if the stratigraphic layer used to date a certain fossil was itself dated by the very same fossil we're trying to date, and that's not what happens.

"But, and it is a big but, the Bible proves itself."
-> ... oh. Okay then. So that previous paragraph about the invalidity of circular reasoning... ?

"As odd as this may seem, and contrary to what we are taught in logic classes, using an ultimate standard to prove an ultimate standard is unavoidable."
-> It is very avoidable. It's called "making an assumption". And even assumptions can be justified even if they can't be proven. Those logic classes should have taught you that every theory starts with axioms, and although you can minimize the number of axioms you can never use the resulting theory to prove them.

I don't see why you try to justify the unjustifiable (circular logic) when you can just say what that all translates to, which is "we're making the fundamental assumption that the Bible is true".

And the original dilemma :
"Rational reasoning involves using the laws of logic. Therefore a rational worldview must be able to account for the existence of such laws. As an example, let's just consider one of the laws of logic: the law of non-contradiction. This law states that any contradiction is false; you can't have A and not-A at the same time and in the same relationship (where the letter A represents any claim). In an atheist worldview, why should there be a law of non-contradiction, or for that matter, any laws of reasoning? Laws of logic and rational reasoning are not part of the physical universe nor can they originate from the physical universe. An accident of chemicals and molecules which is physical will not give you non-physical laws of logic."

I agree that the atheist worldview doesn't require that the Universe be consistent. A theist worldview doesn't require it either. But we observe the Universe to be consistent, and this consistency is hardwired into our brains to the point we have trouble even imagining flagrant violations of consistency (... if we realize they are violations at least) so it's natural for many to believe that it is consistent through and through. And that belief is validated by continuing observations of the Universe's consistency.

And this consistency doesn't originate in accidents of chemicals and molecules; it's a meta-property of the Universe, that dictates everything about how those chemicals and molecules interact. Its "origin", if this question is even meaningful (a bit like "what happened before the beginning of time", really) comes with the origin of the Universe at the very least, which science knows pretty much nothing about. (The Big Bang theory is about the earliest moments of the Universe, it doesn't say much about its actual origin).

Now in a materialist world chemicals and molecules do have everything to do with our own reasoning ability, but of course evolution would select for organisms that can successfully model, predict and react to the world around them - so a property of the world as basic as logical consistency would be hardwired to some extent. It's a bit haphazard though - so you get things like people getting a statistics problem wrong when it's formulated in a probabilistic way, but getting the exact same problem right if it's formulated in a frequentist way. Or children acquiring the mental capacity to understand conservation of volume only around the age of 6 - so you get the situation of a small child, who can count, still thinking that the amount of coins in a row changes when you spread the row out. And all the general weirdnesses of humans and logic.

"Since God is constantly upholding the universe by His power (Heb. 1:3), the consistent Christian expects that no contradiction will ever occur in the universe."
-> Except for miracles, I presume ?

"He uses laws of logic and reasons illogically that only the physical exists. But he is using nonphysical laws of logic to argue that only the physical exists."
-> How are you defining "physical" and "nonphysical" here ?

#68 Geode

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 07:23 AM

"Evolutionists date bones by the earth they are found in and date the earth by the bones. Go figure!"

-> They're not the same earth or the same bones, though. That is, bones can be dated by their stratigraphic layer if the layer's age is known (thanks to other evidence), and a stratigraphic layer can be dated by the fossils it contains if the fossils' age is known (thanks to other evidence). Both are fine as long as the "other evidence" is independent. The circularity would be if the stratigraphic layer used to date a certain fossil was itself dated by the very same fossil we're trying to date, and that's not what happens.


I see variants on this argument about dating using fossils being circular very commonly. You gave a good answer.

#69 MamaElephant

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 08:48 AM

Now you, roohif, will not escape the "wrath that is to come."

Just a reminder that all of the warnings of the coming of the Great Tribulation and Armageddon caused me to run from God, not to draw close to him.

#70 Teejay

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 09:58 AM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1317829694' post='75395']
Just a reminder that all of the warnings of the coming of the Great Tribulation and Armageddon caused me to run from God, not to draw close to him.
[/quote]

ME,

A careful reading of the four gospels shows that Jesus gave numerous warning of the coming Tribulation. If you had been present to hear Jesus make these warning, would you run from Him?

TeeJay

#71 Teejay

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 09:59 AM

Aelyn, good post. Very challenging. I have some things going on the next few days. But keep tuned in. I will answer.

TeeJay

#72 MamaElephant

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 11:55 AM

A careful reading of the four gospels shows that Jesus gave numerous warning of the coming Tribulation. If you had been present to hear Jesus make these warning, would you run from Him?

Numerous warnings you say? To whom and for what purpose? Let's look at the context and find out.

#73 Teejay

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 07:16 PM

You know full well that Jeremiah 18 is referring to the Babylonian exile, and if any atheist were to take those passages out of context like that you'd be all over it, and rightly so. How it can be interpreted as a Messianic prophecy is beyond me.

roohif, I would like to commend you in that you seem to understand the Scriptures better than most Christians. Most Christians fail to interpret Jesus’ words literally. Instead, they spiritualize His words and say, “Well since Jesus did not come back, He could not have meant that He was coming back soon. But Jesus meant exactly what He said. “Some standing here would not taste death until they see Me coming...” But His return was contingent on Israel, as a nation, accepting their risen Messiah. So not surprisingly, we see Peter trying his best to get Israel to accept Jesus as their Messiah so that the Father would send Jesus back (Acts 3:19-21).

Before we look at Jeremiah 18, I hope you realize that Israel was promised an earthly kingdom. For proof of this please read my Posts 16, 18, 20 in “The Kingdom of Heaven, Luke 17:21.” Now let’s look at Jeremiah 18:

“’O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?’ says the Lord. Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a KINGDOM, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. And the instant I speak concerning a KINGDOM, to build and to plant it, if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it” (Jer. 18:6-10).

In the parable of the fig tree, Jesus was ready to cut off Israel. “Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree [Israel] and find none. Cut it down” (Luke 13:7). But the keeper of the vineyard [apparently the Holy Spirit] talks Jesus in to giving Israel another year. But a year later, the whole of Israel rejected their risen Messiah. So as God warned in Jeremiah, He “relented of the Kingdom that He had promised Israel.

What's interesting though is your use of the qualifier - risen Messiah. Since Jesus "was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen - by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead" it would seem near impossible that Israel might accept a risen Messiah, after having rejected him while he was alive, yes? And one might argue that it was actually essential that he be rejected as Messiah for God's plan to be carried out ...

You raise a good point. But in the cities where Jesus did most of His miracles, they totally rejected Him. The leaders demanded a sign from Jesus. But when He gave them a sign by raising Lazarus from the dead, they immediately made plans to kill him. Miracles and wonders actually save less people that those who hear the word. For faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.” Why is this? Because when someone has a hard heart towards God, a miracle shoves the truth of God in his face and proves him wrong. People do not love you when you prove them wrong. Jethro believed simply by hearing about what God did in Egypt, while the Jews who saw countless miracles died in the wilderness in unbelief. Rehab the harlot who hid the spies accepted the God of Abraham by hearing about what God had done in Egypt. So it was not necessary for the Jews to see Jesus and His miracles to accept him. Peter and his followers witnessed to them. And may I point out that miracles accompanied the Twelve as Jesus had promised. But the miracles were to no avail.

Given that the wrath should have come about 1900 years ago, I think I'm pretty safe

Again, roohif, you are more perceptive than most Christians on this site. Actually, the Twelve started into their promised Tribulation. But before things got rolling, God cut off Israel. But just to show you, I will post the following to show you that many of the signs that Jesus gave His followers were fulfilled in the Book of Acts.

But this does not get you off the hook. Jesus is coming back to Israel to put them through the Tribulation ro “refine them as gold.” But this tribulation is worse than the one 2,000 years ago and God will pour out His wrath on all flesh—which includes you if you remain an atheist.
TWELVE SIGNS OF THE TRIBULATION

The Daniel Forecast

In Hebrew there is the word shabua which can mean either a literal seven day week or a period of seven years. We see this used when Laban tricks Jacob by giving him Leah instead of Rachel to wed. Jacob loves Rachel, has just worked seven years for her, and wakes up in the morning next to Leah. Laban then says to Jacob:

Fulfill her week [shabua or seven years] and I will give you this one [Rachel] also for the service which you will serve with me still another seven years. Gen. 29:27

Knowing that a week can mean 7 years, Daniel’s prophesy is very clear:

Seventy weeks [shabua, or 70 x 7 years, or 490 years] are determined for your people and for your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make and end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity, to bring everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy [Jesus Christ]. Dan. 9:24

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks [49 years] and sixty-two weeks [434 years] [49 + 434 = 483 years]…. Dan. 9:25

And after the sixty-two weeks [483 years] Messiah shall be cut off [crucified], but not for Himself [for us]…. Dan. 9:26

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week [seven years (the Tribulation)]; but in the middle of the week he shall bring and end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate…. Dan. 9:27

The Seventy Week prophecy was translated into Greek, along with the rest of Daniel and all the Hebrew Scriptures, in the Septuagent about 200 years before Christ. Jesus quoted this very prophecy when speaking of “the great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world…nor shall ever be” (Mat. 24:21, 24:15; Mark 13:14). The Tribulation is the 70th week of Daniel’s prophecy.

Two fascinating predictions of this prophecy are its timeline and the placement on that timeline of the Great Tribulation. First, it predicted to the very year, and to the very month (Neh. 2:1), and likely to the very day, the time of Christ’s crucifixion. Second, it predicted a final seven-year period (commonly referred to as the Great Tribulation), to occur immediately following Christ’s crucifixion.

This first prediction of Seventy Weeks (490 years) dates the exact year of the crucifixion. A command to “rebuild” Jerusalem (Neh. 2:5-8) was issued “in the month of Nisan, in the twentieth year of King Artaxerxes” (Neh. 2:1). Christians put forth two ideas on when this command was given.

One view uses the traditional dates for Artaxerxes, suggesting that this king reigned from 465 to 425 BC. If so, then his 20th year was 445 BC. Adding 483 years to 445 BC overshoots the time of the crucifixion by a few years. To correct for this, some scholars point out the difference in year lengths between Jewish prophetic years of 360 days and actual years of approximately 365 ¼ days. Adjusting for this variation, and for leap years and century leap years, amazingly, yields a date in the month of Nisan in the year that Christ died.

The other simpler view suggests that traditional history incorrectly dates the issuance of this command, which actually occurred in 454 BC. Adding 483 years to the month of Nisan, 454 BC, produces a date of 29 AD.

AD or anno Domini (“in the year of the Lord”) dating, common in Europe by the 11th century, began with a Monk named Dionysius Exiguus around 530 AD. Almost all scholars recognize that he was late by about four years, placing Christ’s birth between 3 BC and 4BC and His death in 29 AD. By this view, the first seven weeks (or 49 years), the time of Nehemiah and Ezra, witnessed the rebuilding of Jerusalem, King Cyrus’ emancipation of the Jews, and the completion of the second temple, dedicated in 405 BC (Ezra 6:15)

Most important in the above prophecy is that the Tribulation or the time of Jacob’s trouble was to commence immediately after Christ’s crucifixion. Jesus was to return to Israel at the end of the Tribulation (seven years). This did not happen! Why? Read on.

Jesus Preached the Gospel of the Kingdom

Question: Jesus did not tell His disciples about His resurrection until a few days before the Passover and his crucifixion. And then He instructed them to tell no one. And they did not comprehend it! Now, if they did not know about His resurrection, what Gospel were they preaching when He sent them out to preach to Israel? They were preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom--repent, be baptized, keep the law, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand (Mat. 3:2, 4:17; Mark 1:15, 6:12; Luke 13:3).

Moses did not come down from Mount Sinai with a Gospel of Grace, but with the Gospel of the Circumcision (Law). Jesus did not come to Israel with a Gospel of Uncircumcision (Grace), but with the Gospel of Circumcision (Law). No where in the four gospels does Jesus preach grace. In the sense of salvation, the word “grace” is not mentioned once.

Air of Expectancy

Possibly due to calculations based upon Daniel’s 490-year prophecy, the people of Israel were expectant that the time of Messiah was at hand.

Now as the people were in expectation, and all reasoned in their hearts about John [the Baptist], whether he was the Christ or not… Luke 3:15

The people had this “expectancy” at the beginning of John the Baptist’s ministry (Luke 3:2-14), three years before the Messiah was to be “cut off” and 10 years before the final completion of Daniel’s 490 years. Unfortunately, as masses tend to do, they became impatient and bored with their messianic hopes and outgrew them.

Over the next three years, despite Jesus’ preaching (and miracles), that expectation waned. Jesus said that the people should know that it was their “time” (Luke 12:56) for the “visitation” (Luke 19:44) of the Messiah (Luke 1:68, 78). The Lord was angered (“Hypocrites!” Luke 19:42) and saddened (he “wept” Luke 19:41) that Jerusalem was unaware that this was her “day” (Luke 19:42).

Life in the Kingdom

Regardless of His disappointment, Jesus had prophecy to fulfill and a message to proclaim. He immediately set about “preaching the gospel of the kingdom” saying, “Repent…” (Mark 1:14-15), keep the law, be baptized, and learn how to live during the coming Kingdom. “The Kingdom of Heaven is like a grain of a mustard seed….” (Mat. 13:31). “The Kingdom of Heaven is likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.” (Mat. 18:23). Jesus was preparing Israel for life in the Kingdom which was coming soon.

Jesus Came Seeking Fruit in Israel

Jesus said, “Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Mat. 7:19). Such is life under the law in the Kingdom. The Jews would have to produce good fruit. Jesus lamented that the Gentile centurion showed more faith than His nation Israel. In the parable of the fig tree, Jesus gives Israel a final warning:

A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. Then said he unto the dresser [keeper] of the vineyard, Behold these three years [Jesus ministry] I [Jesus] come seeking fruit on this fig tree [Israel], and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it [use up] the ground? And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down. Luke 13:6-9

In the above parable, Jesus spent three years seeking fruit in Israel and found none. Israel is often referred to as the fig tree. Israel now has one more year to repent, be baptized, keep the law, and most importantly, accept Jesus as their Christ. After Jesus’ resurrection, Peter would incorporate a risen Christ into his gospel, and Israel would not only have to accept Jesus as their Messiah, but also as a risen Messiah.

Life in the Tribulation

In addition to Jesus preparing Israel for life in the Kingdom, He also discussed in detail in Mat. 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 how to recognize and endure during the Great Tribulation. The discourse begins when “Peter, James, John, and Andrew ask Him” (Mark 13:3) “what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” (Mat. 24:3). Note that the apostles linked the “end of the age” with Christ’s Second Coming. This linkage is not inconsistent with Daniel’s 490 year prophecy in that God planned to complete all His goals for the present age by the end of the seven year Tribulation after which Christ would return (Mat. 24:29-31; Dan 9:24; Rev. 7:14 with 19:11-21). And for those who are of the school that Jesus was not planning to come back seven years after His crucifixion, I have one question: Why did He explain in detail and prepare them for the coming persecution, if they were not to go through it?

One More Year

In the parable of the fig tree, Jesus came three years seeking fruit in Israel, but found none. Despite His preaching, wonders and miracles, fulfilling of prophecies, pleadings, and weeping for Israel, the majority shouted “free Barabbas, crucify Jesus.” Jesus probably hoped, “I know they did not accept me when I walked among them, but surely they will accept Me now that I am risen from the dead!”

The Book of Acts

According to Daniel’s 490-year prophecy, Jesus was to return within seven years after His crucifixion. Jesus promised the Twelve that He would give them a Kingdom with the Twelve Apostles ruling over the Twelve Tribes of Israel. All was contingent, however, on Israel accepting their risen Christ. Peter immediately preaches to the Jews to repent so that the Father will send Jesus back:

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you. Acts 3:19-20

Jesus Promised to Return Soon

The following passages show that Jesus and the Twelve expected Christ’s Second Coming to occur soon. The actual expectation was that Christ would return so quickly and establish His Kingdom that not enough time would pass for all His disciples to die.

…there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the kingdom of God. Luke 9:27

…there are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the kingdom of God present [here on earth] with power. Mark 9:1

…Ye shall not have gone over [through] the cities of Israel [size of New Jersey], till the Son of man [Jesus] be come. Mat. 10:23

Twelve Signs of the Tribulation

Jesus Christ prepared His apostles for life in the Tribulation and told them exactly what would happen to them. He gave them signs so that they would recognize the Tribulation. Now this may come as a surprise, even shock: The Twelve Apostles were starting into the Tribulation when Jesus cut off Israel. Let’s look at the twelve signs Jesus gave and see if they were fulfilled.

Outpouring of the Holy Spirit: The first sign Joel mentions regarding the Great Tribulation is the pouring out of the Holy Spirit. Just prior to His ascension, Jesus commanded the apostles “not to depart from Jerusalem” but to “wait for the Promise of the Father” (Acts 1:4 and Luke 24:49), the outpouring of the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:5). Fulfilled: On Pentecost, after they were filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues (Acts 1:5), Peter confirmed that “this is what was spoken of by the prophet Joel” (Acts 2:16).

Signs and Wonders: Jesus prophesied signs and wonders (Mat. 24:24; Mark 13:22) in the Tribulation. Peter quoted Joel’s prophecy of “wonders… and signs” (Acts 2:19 from Joel 2:30-31). Fulfilled: The early Acts church saw the fulfilling of the promised signs and wonders (Acts 5:12, 8:7, 4:30, 8:6 & 13).

Earthquakes: Further “wonders… and signs in the earth” included three supernatural earthquakes. Fulfilled: The apostles said a prayer modeled after Joel’s prophecy “that signs and wonders may be done” (Acts 4:30). God immediately answered that prayer by providing what appears to be an earthquake.

And when they prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken…. Acts 4:31

And behold there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven…. Mat. 28:2

…who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that happened, they feared greatly….” Mat. 27:54

Beaten by Councils: Jesus warned His disciples they would be beaten by councils: “But watch out for yourselves, for they will deliver you up to councils, and you will be beaten in the synagogues…” (Mark 13:9). Fulfilled: And that is exactly what happened after Christ’s ascension.

And when they had brought them, they set them before the council… and when they had called for the apostles and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go. Acts 5:27, 40

“Laying on of Hands” to Imprison: Jesus said, “they will lay hands on you and prosecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons….” (Luke 21:12). Did this happen?

And they laid hands on them, and put them in custody….
Acts 4:3

…laid their hands on the apostles and put them in the common prison. Acts 5:17-25

Arrests Lead to Testimony: Jesus warned his apostles: “they will lay hands on you… delivering you up to… prisons…but it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony” (Luke 21:12-13) What happened?

And they laid hands on them, and put them in custody… However, many of those who hear the word believed….
Acts 4:3-4

…an angel of the Lord opened the prison doors and… said, “Go, stand in the temple and speak to the people….”
Acts 5:19-20

Martyrdom: Sadly, Jesus prophesied that those in authority would “kill you” (Mat. 24:9; Luke 21:16). In no time, Israel’s religious leaders wanted blood: “…they were furious and took council to kill them” (Acts 5:33).

The End Times Would Be Short: Peter and the other apostles really believed Jesus’ promise of an early return and a Kingdom. Contrary to what liberal socialists say, Peter and his crowd were not communists. Rather, they were being faithful to their Lord.

Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added to you. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow….” Mat. 6:33-34; see also Mat. 19:29 and Luke 12:31-32

…all who were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of the things that were sold, and laid them at the apostles’ feet; and they distributed to each as anyone had need. Acts 4:34-35

As prophesied, the Tribulation would be short. There would be massive destruction of properties. Government and religious officials would kill many believers. And Jesus would return soon and establish His Kingdom. None of the above is reason for long-term financial planning. The world, as they knew it, was about to end. And Jesus promised them that in His Kingdom, lost property for His sake would be restored a hundred fold.

Verily I say unto you, that ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory [the kingdom], ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake shall receive a hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. Mat. 19:28-29

God put His stamp of approval on this temporary socialistic program when He killed Ananias and his wife Sapphira for “holding back” part of the proceeds of their land.

Irresistible Wisdom: Jesus said, “I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.” (Luke 21:15)

And there were not able to resist the wisdom and Spirit by which he [Stephen] spoke. Acts 6:10

Behold, I will make My words in your mouth fire, and this people wood….” Jer. 5:14

The concept of “irresistible wisdom” appears only in two passages in the whole Bible (Luke 21:15 and Acts 6:10).

Sun, Moon, and Stars: According to Peter, the events of Acts 2 fulfilled the beginning of Joel’s Great Tribulation prophecy, indicating that Peter believed the Tribulation had begun. Peter did not stop after quoting the beginning of Joel’s prophecy. He continued with the more dramatic and terrible portion, showing Peter’s expectation that the fulfillment of this latter part of Joel’s prophecy was forthcoming also.

I will show wonders in heaven above and signs in the earth beneath: blood and fire and vapor of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and notable day of the Lord. Acts 2:19-20, quoting Joel 2:30-31

Jesus’ words were fresh in Peter’s memory, spoken only 55 days earlier:

And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on earth…. Luke 21:25

…the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars of heaven will fall…. Mark 13:24-25 and Mat. 24:29

Christ’s Return was Imminent. Peter said something that is almost universally ignored by Christians: “Repent therefore and be converted… that He [the Father] may send Jesus Christ….” (Acts 3:19-20). What was Peter’s point? “Men of Israel” (v. 12) if you repent, God will send Jesus back to us and we will get our promised Kingdom. But there is a condition! He will send Jesus back if you repent! For Peter knew that Jesus did not make an idle threat when He declared that if Israel did not produce fruit during the next year, He would cut them off. Then, any hope for Israel’s Kingdom would be dashed. It was the earthly Kingdom that Peter was working toward:

Repent… that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus Christ… whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His prophets since the world began. Acts 3:19-20

Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have foretold these days. Acts 3:24

Although there were prophets before Samuel, Peter says, “from Samuel.” Why? It was through Samuel that God actually establish the earthly foundation of Israel’s Kingdom. For Samuel anointed Israel’s first kings, especially King David, whose throne the Eternal King Jesus Christ will one day sit upon (2 Sam. 7:12-14, 16).

The Apostles Preach to the Men of Israel

The apostles preached to the men of Israel, the common folks, before they declared their message to the leaders of Israel:

But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. Acts 2:14

“Men of Israel, hear these words, Jesus of Nazareth…”
Acts 2:22

They persisted knowing that the nation must corporately repent:

Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ. Acts 2:36

Then Peter said… “For the promise is to you [Israel] and to your children, and to all who are afar off…” Acts 2:38-39

Peter’s reference to those “who are afar off’ is the settlements of Jews scattered in other countries (1 Pet. 1:1; James 1:1). Using the Temple as a meeting place, that Temple being the seat of the nation and the identity of Israel, indicates that that the apostles consciously worked toward the nation’s collective repentance.

So continuing daily with one accord in the temple…
Acts 2:46-47

[Peter said] “Men of Israel, why do you marvel at this?... The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus…” Acts 3:12-13

Old Testament Scriptures contain many prophecies concerning Christ’s coming, His earthly ministry, His death and resurrection, and Israel’s intended proclamation of the Gospel to the Gentiles. Early passages in Acts suggest that all the prophecies were on track and that Plan A was still in effect and that Plan B, the “casting away” of Israel (Rom. 11:15), was still future:

Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. Acts 3:19-21

Peter here offered the Kingdom to Israel, if only the Jews would repent. The “times of restoration” [see also Isa. 49:6, 8; 58:12] and the “times of refreshing” [see also Isa. 28:11-12 with 1 Cor. 14:21-22] referred not to a warm inner feeling of godliness, but to the kingdom. At this point Plan A, the prophesied plan, was still on track.

In Acts 9, God cut off Israel, as a nation, and commissioned Paul, “the apostle to the Gentiles,” to go directly to the Gentiles. Israel’s promised kingdom is on hold and has been so for the last two thousand years. God gave Paul a new gospel—the gospel of uncircmcision or grace (see Galatians 2:7-9). Failure to “rightly divide the word of truth,” or the kingdom from the Body, Israel from us Gentiles, law from grace, has caused all the denominational disputes and rifts that are alive today.

I chose not to answer because I deemed the question unworthy of a response. Is this the first time you've asked an atheist this question?

How about this one:

The universe could not have created itself from nothing.
The universe could not have always been here.
So if it could not have created itself and it could not have always been here, then absent a Creator, do you have an explanation as to how the universe came to be?

TeeJay

#74 MamaElephant

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 07:42 PM

roohif, I would like to commend you in that you seem to understand the Scriptures better than most Christians.


Again, roohif, you are more perceptive than most Christians on this site.

Christians that have the Holy Spirit to teach them? :unsure:

a miracle shoves the truth of God in his face and proves him wrong. People do not love you when you prove them wrong.

You don't say? :get_a_clue:

#75 Teejay

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Posted 06 October 2011 - 05:51 AM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1317868933' post='75410']
Christians that have the Holy Spirit to teach them? :unsure: You don't say? :get_a_clue:
[/quote]

ME,

When you accept Jesus, the Holy Spirit resides within you. But the Holy Spirit does not open your skull and magically spoon feed Biblically knowledge into you. You must "study to show yourself approved" and be like the Bereans that Paul encountered "who searched the Scriptures to see if the things that Paul taught were true." Jesus said that "heaven and earth will pass away, but my word will last forever."

The reason I said these things about roohif is that when I posted that Israel was to get an earthly kingdom, that it was to happen 2,000 years ago, that God's law is for everyone today, that the grace gospel was given to Paul only, no Christian on this site agreed with me except Fred. But everything I posted I backed up with Scripture.

The Word (Jesus) will never disagree with the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit will never disagree with the Word. You must agree with this for God can't deny Himself.

Most Christians are unaware that the twelve signs of the Tribulation that Jesus gave to His apostles happened 2,000 years ago as they were starting into their Tribulation (my post to roohif above). If you want to find out about the coming Tribulation, you must look to Revelation and not to the four gospels.

TeeJay

#76 MamaElephant

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Posted 06 October 2011 - 03:16 PM

Most Christians are unaware that the twelve signs of the Tribulation that Jesus gave to His apostles happened 2,000 years ago as they were starting into their Tribulation.

We are quite aware of that. It was one of the first things we noticed.

#77 ikester7579

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Posted 06 October 2011 - 04:51 PM

Let's remember guys, there is a difference between a warning and passing judgment.

Warning: If you don't get saved you will end up in hell.

Judgment: Now you, will not escape the "wrath that is to come."

What makes the 2 different? One provides an option, the other does not.

#78 roohif

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 06:41 PM

Okay, obviously far too much to respond to in one post, so only a few comments:

The Seventy Week prophecy was translated into Greek, along with the rest of Daniel and all the Hebrew Scriptures, in the Septuagent about 200 years before Christ.


Almost 200 years before Christ, and that's important. The Septuagint was finished late in the second century BC (Wikipedia says before 132 BC). What's important is that the translation happened after Antiochus, who is clearly the subject of the prophecy, not Jesus.

This first prediction of Seventy Weeks (490 years) dates the exact year of the crucifixion. A command to “rebuild” Jerusalem (Neh. 2:5-8) was issued “in the month of Nisan, in the twentieth year of King Artaxerxes” (Neh. 2:1). Christians put forth two ideas on when this command was given.


The Seventy Weeks is a hugely complex topic, and to be honest I'm not exactly frothing at the mouth at the chance to do it all over again. That said, there are so many problems with it, the sheer amount of mental gymnastics required to make it fit Jesus astounds me. For starters, the decree to rebuild is the one made by Cyrus (Ezra 1) - Artaxerxes really only hit the pause button (Ezra 4 and Nehemiah 2). And don't get me started on that 360-day prophetic year garbage ...

Let’s look at the twelve signs Jesus gave and see if they were fulfilled.


Please forgive me for being sceptical of "prophecies" (Gospels) and "fulfilments" (Acts) written after the fact.

How about this one:

1. The universe could not have created itself from nothing.
2. The universe could not have always been here.


I'll actually grant premise 1 for the sake of argument, simply because premise 2 is false. Why couldn't matter/energy have always existed?

#79 Teejay

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 03:31 AM

[quote] name='aelyn' timestamp='1317823313' post='75393']
Let me try ! "I presented you with a dilemma as to how laws of logic and rational thought can come from reasonless,lifeless matter."

Well, the laws of logic seem to be an intrinsic property of the Universe so it certainly wouldn't have come from matter, which is an epiphenomenon of said Universe. And I've never heard of thought, rational or no, occurring in lifeless matter.

Curious, I went back to see what the original dilemma was about and I'm afraid I couldn't help but respond to some first-page stuff.

"In a debate, one is not allowed to use the very evidence that he is attempting to prove is true. For example, if a Mormon used the Book of Mormon to prove the Book of Mormon, this would be circular reasoning."
-> Totally agreed ! Awesome.

"Evolutionists date bones by the earth they are found in and date the earth by the bones. Go figure!"
-> They're not the same earth or the same bones, though. That is, bones can be dated by their stratigraphic layer if the layer's age is known (thanks to other evidence), and a stratigraphic layer can be dated by the fossils it contains if the fossils' age is known (thanks to other evidence). Both are fine as long as the "other evidence" is independent. The circularity would be if the stratigraphic layer used to date a certain fossil was itself dated by the very same fossil we're trying to date, and that's not what happens.

"But, and it is a big but, the Bible proves itself."
-> ... oh. Okay then. So that previous paragraph about the invalidity of circular reasoning... ?

"As odd as this may seem, and contrary to what we are taught in logic classes, using an ultimate standard to prove an ultimate standard is unavoidable."
-> It is very avoidable. It's called "making an assumption". And even assumptions can be justified even if they can't be proven. Those logic classes should have taught you that every theory starts with axioms, and although you can minimize the number of axioms you can never use the resulting theory to prove them.

I don't see why you try to justify the unjustifiable (circular logic) when you can just say what that all translates to, which is "we're making the fundamental assumption that the Bible is true".

And the original dilemma :
"Rational reasoning involves using the laws of logic. Therefore a rational worldview must be able to account for the existence of such laws. As an example, let's just consider one of the laws of logic: the law of non-contradiction. This law states that any contradiction is false; you can't have A and not-A at the same time and in the same relationship (where the letter A represents any claim). In an atheist worldview, why should there be a law of non-contradiction, or for that matter, any laws of reasoning? Laws of logic and rational reasoning are not part of the physical universe nor can they originate from the physical universe. An accident of chemicals and molecules which is physical will not give you non-physical laws of logic."

I agree that the atheist worldview doesn't require that the Universe be consistent. A theist worldview doesn't require it either. But we observe the Universe to be consistent, and this consistency is hardwired into our brains to the point we have trouble even imagining flagrant violations of consistency (... if we realize they are violations at least) so it's natural for many to believe that it is consistent through and through. And that belief is validated by continuing observations of the Universe's consistency.

And this consistency doesn't originate in accidents of chemicals and molecules; it's a meta-property of the Universe, that dictates everything about how those chemicals and molecules interact. Its "origin", if this question is even meaningful (a bit like "what happened before the beginning of time", really) comes with the origin of the Universe at the very least, which science knows pretty much nothing about. (The Big Bang theory is about the earliest moments of the Universe, it doesn't say much about its actual origin).

Now in a materialist world chemicals and molecules do have everything to do with our own reasoning ability, but of course evolution would select for organisms that can successfully model, predict and react to the world around them - so a property of the world as basic as logical consistency would be hardwired to some extent. It's a bit haphazard though - so you get things like people getting a statistics problem wrong when it's formulated in a probabilistic way, but getting the exact same problem right if it's formulated in a frequentist way. Or children acquiring the mental capacity to understand conservation of volume only around the age of 6 - so you get the situation of a small child, who can count, still thinking that the amount of coins in a row changes when you spread the row out. And all the general weirdnesses of humans and logic.

"Since God is constantly upholding the universe by His power (Heb. 1:3), the consistent Christian expects that no contradiction will ever occur in the universe."
-> Except for miracles, I presume ?

"He uses laws of logic and reasons illogically that only the physical exists. But he is using nonphysical laws of logic to argue that only the physical exists."
-> How are you defining "physical" and "nonphysical" here ?
[/quote]

Aelyn,

Since this is a little off the topic of this thread, and fearing that Fred or Ikester were about to scold us, I answered this and posted it in: Creation vs. Evolution under "Which Worldview (atheist or theist) Is Rational?"

TeeJay

#80 Teejay

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 03:39 AM

[quote] name='roohif' timestamp='1318038063' post='75453']
Okay, obviously far too much to respond to in one post, so only a few comments:

Almost 200 years before Christ, and that's important. The Septuagint was finished late in the second century BC (Wikipedia says before 132 BC). What's important is that the translation happened after Antiochus, who is clearly the subject of the prophecy, not Jesus.

The Seventy Weeks is a hugely complex topic, and to be honest I'm not exactly frothing at the mouth at the chance to do it all over again. That said, there are so many problems with it, the sheer amount of mental gymnastics required to make it fit Jesus astounds me. For starters, the decree to rebuild is the one made by Cyrus (Ezra 1) - Artaxerxes really only hit the pause button (Ezra 4 and Nehemiah 2). And don't get me started on that 360-day prophetic year garbage ...

Please forgive me for being sceptical of "prophecies" (Gospels) and "fulfilments" (Acts) written after the fact.

I'll actually grant premise 1 for the sake of argument, simply because premise 2 is false. Why couldn't matter/energy have always existed?
[/quote]

roohif,

Your worldview will not allow you to accept any proof of Jesus. But, just curious, do you see Jesus in any of the OT writings?

Why couldn't matter/energy have always existed? A simple answer is that a fire will not burn forever.

Questions: Do you believe that only the physical/material world exists? Is atheism logical?

TeeJay




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