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#101 Bonedigger

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 08:16 PM

Bone,

I must admit you're really challenging me. I now know I must commit more time to answering you. But presently, I am up to my hips in alligators. I've leased my 100 + acre ranch to another cattleman and he is getting ready to move a large herd onto the acreage. (I got out of the cattle business.) But, I have about 600 feet of fence that needs to be replaced. At my age, that is quite an undertaking. As soon as I get it finished and I am able to devote more time, I will be ready to go a few rounds with you.

 

No problem TeeJay. My real life often interferes with my forum life as well. Besides, I prefer relaxed, in depth discussions to rapid fire, from the hip, debate exchanges.

 

I do have one question to ask you in the mean time: In Matthew 24:28, Jesus says, "For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together." Now I interpret eagles to be Texas vultures that eat carcasses or dead flesh. The Lord quoted Job about “the eagle [vulture]” (Job 39:27) and “where the slain are, there it is” (Job 39:30). What is your take on this?

In Luke it is clear, to me anyway, that Jesus is talking about the "one will be taken and the the other left" scenario. At the end of Jesus' teaching on this, His apostles asked Him where they would be taken? Jesus answered: "Wherever the body is, there the eagles [vultures?] will be gathered together." If the one taken is Raptured, then there would be no carcass or a gathering of vultures. His apostles could not have been asking where the man left was taken, for he is not taken anywhere. He is left. What's your take on this?

TeeJay

 

I'll be happy to explain my take on that. First of all, I do think vultures is a better translation. I do not, however, think that Jesus is quoting Job 39:30 in Matthew 24:28 and Luke 17:37. In Job the Hebrew word translated "slain" is חללים (chalalim), which is plural and refers to more than one carcass or slain. As I have emphasized a couple of times, in both Matthew and Luke, Jesus uses the singular form. There is only one carcass (or body in Luke) to which the vultures are being gathered. The most important thing in determining what He meant by that is context. In Matthew 24:26, Jesus admonishes the disciples:

26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it."

The first question that comes to mind is: why should we not go looking for Him in the desert if we hear that He is out there? The next two verses are explaining why we should not go running out to the desert to meet Him.

27 "For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be."

As I mentioned before, this is often taken to mean every eye will see Him, just like you can see the lightning in the east when you yourself are in the west. However, that doesn't address the reason for His admonition in verse 26 to not go out into the desert. Let's suppose, for the moment, that this is the scenario: Jesus returns in the east, in the desert just to emphasize the illustration, and you are in the west. You see His return in the east. Now what? Wouldn't you still have to go running out into the desert to meet Him? As I mentioned in my earlier post, I offer an alternative meaning to His analogy to lightning. It only takes a split second for lightning shining in the east to flash to the west. In other words, "Don't go running out into the desert to meet Me because you won't have time to go out to meet Me". He continues the explanation of why we shouldn't look to go out to meet Him in the desert in verse 28.

28 "For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together."

As I see it, the analogy that Jesus is giving here is that He is the carcass, and we are the eagles (vultures). It is a further explanation of why we should not go running out into the desert to meet Him. The passive voice "be gathered", in particular, stands out to me. The vultures are not gathering, but instead are being gathered by an outside agency. In other words, Jesus is saying "Don't go out in the desert to meet Me because:"

1. You won't have time to go out and meet Me.
2. You won't even need to go out to meet Me because you will be gathered to Me.

The parallel to Paul's description of the Rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1 is uncanny. At the coming (parousia) of the Lord, we will be gathered to a meeting of the Lord in the air, and so shall we ever be with Him.

But, for the sake of argument, let's say in verse 28 He is referring to judgement and the unbelievers are taken away while believers are left behind. Both in Matthew 13 and in Matthew 25 (the sheep and the goats) the unbelievers are cast straight into everlasting fire. Will the vultures then be gathered to their carcasses there? But, more importantly, if the believers are left where they were when the unbelievers were taken, how does this relate to His admonition to not go out into the desert to meet Him in verse 26? Will they not still be left to their own devices to find a way to go meet Him, wherever he is, desert or elsewhere?



#102 Teejay

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 01:30 PM

RAPTURE WAS NOT MENTIONED IN FOUR GOSPELS.

Bone,

You label yourself a Dispensationalist, and I guess you accept that the “dispensation of the grace gospel” was given to Paul by Jesus Christ?  And I’m sure you accept that there was no Body of Christ with us as members until Paul?  But you reject the argument that the Rapture was also a mystery given only to Paul.  So, I guess your label is Dispensationalist while mine is hyper-Dispensationalist.  And I will wear that label proudly!

I have found over many years that all the doctrinal disputes that fracture the Body of Christ are caused by a failure to “rightly divide the word of truth,” as Paul admonishes.  I have also found that by “rightly dividing” Israel from the Body, Peter from Paul, circumcision from uncircumcision, and law from grace resolves all the doctrinal disputes that divide Christians today.  On the Two Gospels thread (toward the end), is a list of these doctrinal disputes.  I challenged my opponents to pick one and I would show them that a failure to divide caused the disputes and rightly dividing resolved the dispute.  No one took my challenge?

I submit that when you fully embrace Dispensationalist, you will find that all doctrinal disputes vanish.  Here I will post all the evidence I can find that shows the Rapture is for the Body of Christ (members who are saved under Paul’s gospel of grace) and no one else.

 
So, this will be a bit long winded.  This can’t be helped.  Since you and I agree on much, I want to zero in on the Rapture not being mentioned by Jesus to Israel.  If I can convince you of this, then we can discuss other issues.  For starters:

The Texas Turkey Vultures

Bone, when I quote Matthew 24:28 and Luke 17:37, most often my opponent will argue that the eagles are not vultures.  I was elated that you accepted and admitted the obvious—that Jesus was indeed referring to vultures that eat carrion.  I thought that these two verses would cause you to question your position.  It did not.

First, you disagreed that Jesus was quoting Job.  Unless you can give me some evidence, I must accept your assertion as arbitrary.  But before we look deeper, a thorough reading of the four gospels will show that Jesus often quoted passages from the Old Testament.  One of the best arguments that Christian apologists have today for the veracity of the New Testament is that Jesus’ constant reference to Old Testament passages.  I have heard Christian apologist argue that the Old Testament must be true since Jesus so often referenced it.  And the flip side is that the veracity of the New Testament can be based on the Old Testament.  So I was not surprised at all that Jesus’ words could be found in the Old Testament, i.e. Job.

Jesus said, “For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles (vultures) will be gathered together” (Mat. 24:27).  You argue that because Hebrew translation in Job refers to more than one carcass then this can’t be referring to Job.  I live in Texas with vultures.  When I have a dead cow (carcass), the clean-up crew arrives very quickly.  I interpret this through Texas jargon:  “When you got something dead, you got vultures.”  In Matthew, Jesus could not be clearer.  He was telling his apostles that those taken would be eaten by vultures.

Jesus speaking in Luke 17:  “…there will be two men in one bed; the one will be taken and the other left” (v. 34).  “Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left” (v. 35).  “Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left” (v. 36).  After Jesus speaking these words, His apostles (v. 37) reasonably asked:  “Where [will they be taken], Lord?”  And Jesus answered clearly:  “Wherever the body (carcass) is, there the eagles [vultures] will be gathered” (v. 37).  Bone, with respect, if this is where I am going when Jesus comes to Rapture me, I am going to do my best avoid it:  get a job as a coal miner perhaps.        

You posted:  As I see it, the analogy that Jesus is giving here is that He is the carcass, and we are the eagles (vultures). It is a further explanation of why we should not go running out into the desert to meet Him. The passive voice "be gathered", in particular, stands out to me. The vultures are not gathering, but instead are being gathered by an outside agency. In other words, Jesus is saying "Don't go out in the desert to meet Me because:"

What analogy????????????????????   I refuse to address this scenario that Jesus is the carcass.  Yikes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
 

Bone, the following are some things for you to consider:

 

Twelve Signs of the Tribulation

 

Please see my Post 73.  Jesus prophesied twelve signs and conditions of the Tribulation.  Full, partial, or expected fulfillment of each of these signs is confirmed in the first eight chapters of Acts.  The Twelve were starting into the “time of Jacob’s trouble.”

Israel Is Promised an Earthly Kingdom

Some Christians adamantly refuse to admit that Christ will return to establish an earthly Kingdom.  Rather, these believers prefer a weak spiritualization.  But the Bible abundantly testifies to this Kingdom during which Christ will rule from Jerusalem on David’s throne.  As the following passages show, Israel will not be Raptured up to heaven but will live in an earthly kingdom.
 

The Lord’s Prayer:  “Your kingdom come.  Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.”  Mat. 6:10
 

The angel Gabriel said to Mary:
 

“… the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.  And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”  Luke 1:32-33
 

Then add these passages:
 

Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, to order it and establish it with judgment and justice from that time forward, even forever.  Isaiah 9:7

“When the Son of Man comes… He will sit on the throne of His glory…  Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come… inherit the kingdom…’”  Mat. 25:31-34
 

“… in those days… I will also gather all nations, and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; and I will enter into judgment with them there on account of My people, My heritage Israel…  Let the nations be wakened, and come up to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; for there I will sit to judge…   The Lord also will roar from Zion, and utter His voice from Jerusalem; the heavens and earth will shake; but the Lord will be a shelter for His people, and the strength of the children of Israel.”  Joel 3:1-2, 12-16 (See also Joel 3:17-18.)

 

Honoring His covenant with Abraham, God will give the Jews a huge physical territory, “the land” from the Nile to the Euphrates (Gen. 12:1, 7; 13:14-15, 17; 15:18; 17:8).  God promised King David:
 

“… I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom….  And I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.”  2 Sam. 7:12-12
 

Just as the seed was literal, physical, and historical, so too is the throne and the Kingdom.  Opposition to a literal Kingdom aids those who, like the Gnostics, oppose the literal Seed (see also Isa. 66:20; Ezek. 11:17; 28:25-26; Deut. 32:43; Isa. 11:10-12 and compare Rom. 15:8).
 

Christ’s Olivet Discourse also nails down the plain meaning of the above “expectancy” passages.  That “there are some standing here who shall not” die till they see Christ “coming in the kingdom” requires either that His Coming was a significant amount of time removed from the date of that utterance (though short enough that some would survive), or that the intervening time would be especially dangerous.

Members of the Body of Christ Will Live in Heaven

In stark contrast to Israel’s earthly kingdom, Paul clearly shows that members of the Body of Christ have a heavenly hope and will not live in Israel’s earthly kingdom.  Please see Phil. 2:10; 3:20; Eph. 1:10; 3:15; Col. 1:5, 20; 3:1-2; 2 Cor. 5:1; 2 Tim. 4:18.

The Wrath to Come (to Israel)

Before God establishes His Kingdom, Israel will be purged Zech. 13:8-9; Mal. 3:2-3) by wrath (Mat. 3:7) so that only those worthy (Luke 21:36; 20:35; Mat. 10:11, 13, 37-38; 22:8) to inherit the Kingdom shall enter in (Mat. 25:34-36).  Again we see a stark contrast between Israel and the Body:  God did appoint Israel to wrath; but He did not appoint the Body to wrath (see verses in following paragraph).

John the Baptist knew about the coming wrath as shown by his rebuke of the Pharisees:

“Brood of vipers!  Who has warned you to flee from the wrath that is to come?” (Mat. 3:7-8).

Also see Mat. 3:9-12; Dan. 7:25, 27.

The Body Is Not Appointed to Wrath

Paul is clear in his writings that his converts (members of the Body) will not endure the coming wrath for Israel.  Rather, they will escape (Raptured).

“…and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come” (1 Thes. 1:10).

 

“For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.  And the dead in Christ [members of His Body] will rise first.  Then we who are alive and remain [members of His Body] shall be caught up together with them in the clouds [both groups Raptured] to meet the Lord in the air.  And thus we shall always be with the Lord.  Therefore comfort one another with these words” (l Thes. 4:16-17)

“For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Thes. 5:9).

Also see Rom. 5:9; Col. 3:6; Eph. 5:6.

Righteous Saints Worthy of the Kingdom Are Resurrected, Not Raptured

Jesus, for the most part, kept His resurrection a puzzle—“no sign but the sign of Jonah” (Mat. 12:39-40).  A few days before He was crucified, He told his disciples that He would be crucified and would rise.  But it was a mystery to them.  They did not understand it (Luke 18:31-34).  He also spoke of a resurrection of the dead after the Tribulation.

 

“For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel.  For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will” (John 5:20-21).

 

“And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other”  (Mat. 24:31).

 

“Most assuredly, I say to you the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live”  (John 5:25).

 

“Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation”  (John 5:28-29).

 

“And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from [wheat from the tares] the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other” (Mat. 24:31).  Note:  In Mat. 24:29, Jesus establishes that this is “immediately after the Tribulation.”  Also, in Mat. 13:37, parable of the sower, Jesus shows that the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom.

End of Tribulation and First Resurrection

 

At the end of the Tribulation, Jesus will return and send His angels to separate the wheat from the tares—the righteous from the unrighteous.  The Jews who have been killed during the Tribulation (“beheaded for their witness to Jesus”) will be resurrected to eternal life and will “reign with Jesus for a thousand years.”   

 

“Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.  He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished.  But after these things he must be released for a little while.  And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them.  Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshipped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands.  And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.  But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.  This is the first resurrection” (Rev. 20:1-5).

The “Day of the Lord”

Many Christians mistakenly teach that the biblical phrase, “the Day of the Lord” only refers to Christ’s Second Coming, which adds confusion.  But the Tribulation itself is call the Day of the Lord.  Actually, the Lord’s Second Coming is called “the great and notable day of the Lord (Acts 2:20) because it is the culmination of the Tribulation, the most noteworthy, terrible, and dreadful part of that day.  Joes calls Christ’s return “the great and terrible day of the Lord” (Joel 2:31).  Malachi calls His return, which is the climax of the Last Days, “the great and dreadful day of the Lord” (Mal. 4:5).

Many Christians stubbornly resist calling the whole Tribulation “the Day of the Lord.”  But God’s wrath, from which the Body is spared, is spread throughout the entire Tribulation, because it is His day.  Ezekiel establishes this clearly saying that “the day of the Lord is… the time of the Gentiles” (Ezek. 30:3).  Jesus calls that same time “the days of vengeance… For there will be great distress in the land and wrath” when “Jerusalem is trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled” (Luke 21:22-24).  Notice too, according to Ezekiel, “the day of the Lord” is not the brief period of Christ’s return, but is “the time of the Gentiles,” the very term Jesus used to describe the Tribulation in Mat. 24.

No amount of reinterpretation of scripture can apply “the time of the Gentiles” to the Second Coming.  Hence, it is seen that God uses the term “the day of the Lord” generally to refer to the Tribulation itself.

Joel’s prophecy also shows that the Day of the Lord is not limited to Christ’s return, but refers to events of lengthy duration requiring passage of years (Joel 1:15-20).  See also Obad. 4:12-16; Zeph. 1:7-18).

In light of the above contrasts between the Body and Israel, I pray we can agree that the Rapture is for the Body of Christ only.  As our citizenship is in heaven, then logically, we must be taken out before the “great and terrible day of the Lord.”  Israel is destined to live in an earthly kingdom, and thus will not be Raptured bodily into heaven (out of the kingdom).  For the Jews in the kingdom, taking them out of the kingdom could not be reward, as only those worthy will enter into it.  Thus, those “taken” are taken out of the kingdom.

And, yes, as the Body of Christ was a mystery, so too the plans for the Body were a mystery.  Paul laid the foundation for the Body of Christ (1 Cor. 3:10).  The establishment of the Body of Christ was contingent on whether Israel would accept their risen Messiah.  It was future and a mystery not prophesied.  So Jesus could not have been referring to the Rapture in the gospels.

 

I pray we can agree on this one point?

 

TeeJay

 



#103 Bonedigger

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 07:46 PM

Bonedigger, I'm glad you pointed the Scripture out in Luke 17, most people overlook the clear implications of what it says:

until the day that Noah entered the ark v.27
on the day that Lot went out v.29
on the day that the Son of Man is revealed v.30

It is very clear that when the righteous are removed the wrath comes on the same day. However, there are still His people on earth, namely the 144,000 who are hiding out in the desert. These are the ones, the re-joined 12 tribes of Israel, who will enter into the millennium in their physical bodies. Maybe this answers the question as to how the body of Messiah can be removed first and also seem like the wicked are destroyed first.


After looking at Mat 13 I began to wonder if it does really indicate that the wicked are removed first.

36 Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the [t]tares of the field.” 37 And He said, The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, 38 and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the [u]end of the age; and the reapers are angels. 40 So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the [v]end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom [w]all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, [x]let him hear.

There doesn't seem to be a mention of the timing of the righteous being dealt with in regards to the tares being gathered up and burned. It only mentions them after the wicked are dealt with. We could assume that the righteous are removed and then the wicked are dealt with to leave the righteous to shine forth.

 

Dig, I don't have that problem of assuming that the righteous are removed before the wicked are dealt with. biggrin.png The main thesis of my post above is that the circumstances Jesus describes prior to His parousia (when the righteous are removed-1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) can not exist once the abomination of desolation has occurred. Consequently, their removal before the coming wrath must happen, at the very least, prior to the abomination of desolation.

 

I also looked up the reference in the Tanach to "the righteous will shine forth as the sun" and interestingly enough it is a reference to Daniel 12:1-3.

 

The interesting thing about Daniel 12 is it's the only place you find a mention of a countdown other than 1260 days or the equivalent.

4 “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.” 5 Then I, Daniel, looked; and there stood two others, one on this riverbank and the other on that riverbank. 6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long shall the fulfillment of these wonders be?” 7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.

Here we see the familiar reference to a span of three and a half years starting from the abomination of desolation.

8 Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, “My lord, what shall be the end of these things?” 9 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand. 11 “And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days. 13 “But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.”

But here we see two more countdowns, one that adds an additional 30 days, and then a second one that adds an additional 45 days to that. The statement to Daniel that he will arise "at the end of the days" implies that Daniel will be resurrected after the 1335 days. I think people often get a "magic genie" view of the return of the Lord where He just snaps His fingers and instantly everything is set up. After reading Shoebat's "God's War on Terror", and all of the old testament prophecies that he (correctly I believe) attributes to the battle of Armageddon, we may be looking at 30 days of battle, and then 45 days of "clean up". What do you think?

TeeJay, I will get to your voluminous post, (in which you have once again managed to completely sidestep the question I have put to you of how the two could even be in the field if that is at the end of the Tribulation), when I get the chance.



#104 Dig4gold

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 10:45 PM

Bone: Dig, I don't have that problem of assuming that the righteous are removed before the wicked are dealt with. The main thesis of my post above is that the circumstances Jesus describes prior to His parousia (when the righteous are removed-1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) can not exist once the abomination of desolation has occurred. Consequently, their removal before the coming wrath must happen, at the very least, prior to the abomination of desolation.


I agree the righteous are removed before the wicked are dealt with - on the same day! That is the point of the analogy of Noah and Lot.

I'm not sure of your reason why our gathering together to Him cannot occur after the abomination of desolation. In fact there is reason to believe that it cannot occur until after that event. Consider the following:

II Thes 2:1-4 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the [a]coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your [b]composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a [c]message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the [d]apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above [e]every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

Notice that the subject is our gathering together to Him. Notice also that it will not happen until the anti messiah sits in the temple and calls himself god, which is clearly the abomination of desolation.

I believe the difference in our understanding is in the fact that God's wrath does not begin at that point. That point in time is the middle of the 7 year period or 3 1/2 years into it which begins the Great Tribulation. That is not God's wrath. That is satan's wrath against the righteous.

God's wrath will not begin until after the signs in the sun, moon and stars at the 6th seal. (See Isa 13:9-10; Joel 2:31: Acts 2:20; Rev 6:12-17) *note verse 17 and what they knew was occurring.


I looked at the text in I Thess 4 but I did not see anything that would indicate that the gathering of the elect would have to occur before the abomination of desolation. Do you have some insight into this that I am missing?

Usually it is a misunderstanding of the wrath of satan which is the great tribulation and the Day of the Lord which is God's wrath.

#105 Teejay

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 03:10 PM

Bone and Dig,

Please read my Post 73.  Not one righteous person was "removed."  They were well into the Tribulation and many were killed, not taken.  Further, a Jew taken out of the kingdom would not be reward, but punishment.  Only those fit for the kingdom will remain.  And then we have the resurrection of the saints that will rule in God's earthly kingdom which is only for Israel.  And Scripture clearly says that this is the first resurrection.  The second resurrection is at the Great White Throne judgment when all will be raised--some to eternal damnation and some to eternal glory.  The Rapture is not a resurrection per se; rather it is the taking of the members of the Body of Christ physically into heaven.  And I have given the verses to show that our citizenship is in heaven and not in Israel's earthly kingdom.

 

TeeJay



#106 Bonedigger

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 06:00 PM

Okay. Back to square one. I'm not trying to be condescending or anything, but let's see if I can spell it out as plainly and straightforward as possible for both of you. You have two scenarios here in Matthew 24.

Scenario 1.
(enlarged bold font intentional)
The abomination of desolation (AoD) happens. When that happens, Jesus tells those in Judea to "flee to the mountains". It's such an emergency that He says: "17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes." Why? "21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. "

So, all during this great tribulation, where is "him who was in the field" when the AoD happened? He is in the mountains hiding out from this great tribulation. Immediately after the tribulation of those days, Jesus returns. If Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation of those days, then where is "him who was in the field" when the AoD happened? He is still in the mountains.

Scenario 2.
Jesus compares His parousia to the days of Noah. As I noted in my previous post, "eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage" is a description of normal, everyday life, not sin. Jesus then states: "40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left."

 

If this event where there are two are in the field, one is taken, one is left, is identical to Jesus' return immediately after the tribulation, then how can two be in the field, when "him who was in the field" at the AoD is still in the mountains? They can't be! The only way for Scenario 2 to be possible is if it happens prior to the AoD and Scenario 1.

Did I spell it out plainly enough?



#107 Dig4gold

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 07:00 PM

Regardless if one understands the one left or the one taken to be the "good guy" or the "bad guy" the point remains that two people in the field are going in different directions. 

 

As to the timing of Yeshua's coming, it is clearly after the AoD and the G.T. Consider the following:

 

Mat 24:21-23 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no [j]life would have been saved; but for the sake of the [k]elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the [l]Christ,’ or ‘[m]There He is,’ do not believe him.

 

If Yeshua has already come at this point then why would anyone still be looking for Him? Yeshua is telling His followers that after the G.T. when someone says that He has come back, "Do Not Believe"!



#108 Bonedigger

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 07:11 PM

Regardless if one understands the one left or the one taken to be the "good guy" or the "bad guy" the point remains that two people in the field are going in different directions. 

 

As to the timing of Yeshua's coming, it is clearly after the AoD and the G.T. Consider the following:

 

Mat 24:21-23 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no [j]life would have been saved; but for the sake of the [k]elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the [l]Christ,’ or ‘[m]There He is,’ do not believe him.

 

If Yeshua has already come at this point then why would anyone still be looking for Him? Yeshua is telling His followers that after the G.T. when someone says that He has come back, "Do Not Believe"!

 

Because He hasn't returned at His parousia, Dig. He has only come to remove the body of Christ from the earth in a meeting in the air so that the man of sin can be revealed and the mystery of lawlessness will be no longer restrained per 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (ἡ ἀποστασία-the departure) and 2 Thessalonians 2:7.



#109 Dig4gold

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 07:53 PM

OK, I see what you are saying now but I still think there are other challenges to that as well.

From what we know about the analogy from Noah and Lot when Yeshua removes His people God's wrath is poured out "on the same day". So any people who remain save the 144,000 who were sealed and a few that help Israel will be toast.

I guess my question would be who is the one that is the "good guy" when one is taken and one is left since all of the believers are gone?

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 08:04 PM

OK, I see what you are saying now but I still think there are other challenges to that as well.

From what we know about the analogy from Noah and Lot when Yeshua removes His people God's wrath is poured out "on the same day". So any people who remain save the 144,000 who were sealed and a few that help Israel will be toast.

I guess my question would be who is the one that is the "good guy" when one is taken and one is left since all of the believers are gone?

 

I'm not sure what you mean by that last question, Dig. The one being taken at the parousia of the Lord is the believers (the "good guys") being removed.



#111 Dig4gold

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 08:28 PM

I'm speaking of the two in the field where one is taken and one is left. If I understood correctly you were saying that event is after the believers being are taken because it occurs after the AoD and the G.T.

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 08:35 PM

I'm speaking of the two in the field where one is taken and one is left. If I understood correctly you were saying that event is after the believers being are taken because it occurs after the AoD and the G.T.

 

No. The complete opposite. The two being in the field must occur before the AoD. Once the AoD occurs, and he who was in the field has fled to the mountains because of the tribulation, there will be no way (because of the tribulation) or time (because Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation) for him to return to the field before the Lord comes on clouds of heaven with power and great glory at the end of the tribulation.



#113 Dig4gold

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 05:30 AM

I see two explanations here in Matthew 24. One is in verses 15-16 where the AoD occurs (when you see..) then the people in Judea flee to the mountains.

The other explanation is in verses 39-41 in which the DoL (Day of The Lord) is occurring. This would seem to be in agreement with both events occurring on the same day.

I guess my question would be if the two in the field in verses 39-41 are in reference to the gathering to Himself or the judgment? There seems to be direct correlation to the judgment of the wicked because of the references to the flood. It says that they "did not understand", however Noah was specifically warned by God that the flood was coming and for what purpose.

Could it be possible that the two in the field is in reference to the wicked that are in judgment in verse 40?

#114 Dig4gold

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 05:36 AM

When I said, "This would seem to be in agreement with both events occurring on the same day." I meant that the AoD occurs then a great tribulation for some time, up to 3 1/2 years then "on the same day" Yeshua gathers His people and pours out His wrath, again; "on the same day".

#115 Teejay

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 05:22 PM

Okay. Back to square one. I'm not trying to be condescending or anything, but let's see if I can spell it out as plainly and straightforward as possible for both of you. You have two scenarios here in Matthew 24.

Scenario 1.
(enlarged bold font intentional)
The abomination of desolation (AoD) happens. When that happens, Jesus tells those in Judea to "flee to the mountains". It's such an emergency that He says: "17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes." Why? "21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. "

So, all during this great tribulation, where is "him who was in the field" when the AoD happened? He is in the mountains hiding out from this great tribulation. Immediately after the tribulation of those days, Jesus returns. If Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation of those days, then where is "him who was in the field" when the AoD happened? He is still in the mountains.

Scenario 2.
Jesus compares His parousia to the days of Noah. As I noted in my previous post, "eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage" is a description of normal, everyday life, not sin. Jesus then states: "40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left."

 

If this event where there are two are in the field, one is taken, one is left, is identical to Jesus' return immediately after the tribulation, then how can two be in the field, when "him who was in the field" at the AoD is still in the mountains? They can't be! The only way for Scenario 2 to be possible is if it happens prior to the AoD and Scenario 1.

Did I spell it out plainly enough?


Bone,

You can't solve this dilemma as long as you hold to the notion that those taken are the righteous while those who are left are those that offend.  But Jesus clearly says the opposite:  "The Son of Man will send out HIs angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness" (Mat. 13:41).

After the Rapture, when God spares His Body from the "wrath that is to come," God will turn up the heat to "purge" (Mat. 3:12) out the dross and refine Israel for her role in God's earthly kingdom:

"And it shall come to pass that he who is left in Zion and he who remains in Jerusalem will be called holy--everyone who is recorded among the living in Jerusalem" (Isa. 4:3).

Notice too that the Tribulation is all about nations (Luke 21:10; Mark 13:8; Mat. 24:7).  There will be an alliance of nations, specifically Gentile nations, against Israel:

"And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations.  And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled" (Luke. 21:24).

Those who flee to the mountains are the righteous.  Just as in the first half of the Book of Acts, most of the saints persecution came from Israel's leaders who are in alliance with the Gentiles.  So those who flee to the mountains will not be taken.  (Recall also that there was a great dispersion of righteous Jews who fled the persecution recorded in the Book of Acts.)  Those who remain and collaborate with the Gentiles will be taken, and the Gentiles also.  The righteous remain.  Those who fled to the mountains are not the same as those who are taken in judgment.

 

But as long as one holds to the wrong theology that those taken are Raptured to heabven, then this conundrum can't be resolved.

 

TeeJay



#116 Bonedigger

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 05:59 PM


Bone,

You can't solve this dilemma as long as you hold to the notion that those taken are the righteous while those who are left are those that offend.  But Jesus clearly says the opposite:  "The Son of Man will send out HIs angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness" (Mat. 13:41).

After the Rapture, when God spares His Body from the "wrath that is to come," God will turn up the heat to "purge" (Mat. 3:12) out the dross and refine Israel for her role in God's earthly kingdom:

"And it shall come to pass that he who is left in Zion and he who remains in Jerusalem will be called holy--everyone who is recorded among the living in Jerusalem" (Isa. 4:3).

Notice too that the Tribulation is all about nations (Luke 21:10; Mark 13:8; Mat. 24:7).  There will be an alliance of nations, specifically Gentile nations, against Israel:

"And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations.  And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled" (Luke. 21:24).

Those who flee to the mountains are the righteous.  Just as in the first half of the Book of Acts, most of the saints persecution came from Israel's leaders who are in alliance with the Gentiles.  So those who flee to the mountains will not be taken.  (Recall also that there was a great dispersion of righteous Jews who fled the persecution recorded in the Book of Acts.)  Those who remain and collaborate with the Gentiles will be taken, and the Gentiles also.  The righteous remain.  Those who fled to the mountains are not the same as those who are taken in judgment.

 

But as long as one holds to the wrong theology that those taken are Raptured to heabven, then this conundrum can't be resolved.

 

TeeJay

 

TeeJay, the dilemma is solved by recognizing that the parousia of the Lord, which Jesus is referring to here in Matthew 24:36-44, and which Paul specifically referred to by name in 1 Thessalonians 4:15, is a different event than when He returns at the end of the tribulation. Your solution of the unrighteous being the ones taken does not solve the dilemma, it ignores it! It doesn't explain what they are doing in the field and grinding at the mill in the first place. As I went through in my first post on the Rapture, this is a description of normal everyday life, not a description of Jews under tribulation, or of Gentiles gathering for war against Israel.



#117 Teejay

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Posted 02 February 2014 - 10:32 AM

TeeJay, the dilemma is solved by recognizing that the parousia of the Lord, which Jesus is referring to here in Matthew 24:36-44, and which Paul specifically referred to by name in 1 Thessalonians 4:15, is a different event than when He returns at the end of the tribulation. Your solution of the unrighteous being the ones taken does not solve the dilemma, it ignores it! It doesn't explain what they are doing in the field and grinding at the mill in the first place. As I went through in my first post on the Rapture, this is a description of normal everyday life, not a description of Jews under tribulation, or of Gentiles gathering for war against Israel.


In 1 Thessalonians 4:15, Paul is speaking of the Rapture of the Body of Christ.  He called it a mystery.  Peter will not be Raptured.  He is a saint that was persecuted for Jesus and he will be resurrected after the Tribulation and will rule with Jesus over the Twelve Tribes of Israel.  If Peter is taken out of the Kingdom, how can he rule with Jesus?

"Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.  He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished.  But after these things he must be released for a little while.  And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them.  Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshipped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands.  And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.  But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.  This is the first resurrection" (Rev. 20:1-5).

Immediately upon Christ's return, after the Tribulation, He will preside over an earthly judgment.  The nations (Isa. 34:1-2) of the earth will be brought to Israel and judged.  Those who have blessed gthe Jews (Gen. 12:3; Ex. 23:22; Mat. 25:34-40) will enter (Mat. 25:34-40) into the millennial Kingdom but Christ will throw the enemies of Israel (Isa. 34:8;; 41:11-12; 60:12; Jer. 2:3; 10:25; 30:16, 20; Joel 3:2; Mat. 25:41-45) into hell.  Also see Joel 3:1-2; 12-16.

As I see this judgment, Jesus will judge nations.  Nations that blessed Israel will be spared.  Nations that persecuted Israel will be dismantled.  This has nothing to do with individual salvation.  There will be people (like Nazi Germany) in these evil nations who secretly or overtly supported Israel, aided Israel, etc.  God's angels will separate the wheat from the tares, i.e. the tares plucked up and taken while the wheat left for harvest..  I imagine that Jesus may make one of these men who aided Israel a king over the evil nation that was judged.  Or Jesus may put an evil judged nation under the authority of a righteous nation.

The one taken is not the one who fled to the mountains.  The one who flees is the righteous who is persecuted for Jesus' sake, and if killed will be resurrected to live in the kingdom.  The man grinding at the mill and experiencing every day life is the Jew who is complacent.  He does not give the Lord's coming a second thought.  In my Post 73, I showed that the Twelve were well into the Tribulation.  The majority of Jews in Israel were very complacent, grinding at the mill, marrying, eating, drinking--every-day life.  But so were the people in the days of Noah. when God came and took them in judgment.  Only Noah and his family escaped judgment.

In Zephaniah, God warns that he will punish those in complacency:  "And it shall comd to pass at that time that I will search Jerusalem with lamps, and punish men who are settled in complacency...[ grinding at the mill, marrying, eating, drinking, as in the day of Noah]" (Zeph. 1:12).  When Jesus came to Israel the first time, He lamented:  "Israel should have known this was their time... [paraphrased].  But most slumbered and did not care.

 

When Jesus sends His angels to remove "all that offends," all the tares from all the nations will be removed.  The man in the mountain does not have to return to the field?????

TeeJay



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Posted 02 February 2014 - 02:40 PM

In 1 Thessalonians 4:15, Paul is speaking of the Rapture of the Body of Christ. He called it a mystery.

 

TeeJay, I already dealt with this (false) claim in my post above. Nowhere does Paul refer to the Rapture (catching up--GK=harpadzo=ἁρπάζω) or the coming of the Lord (coming--GK=parousia=παρουσία) as a mystery. You are simply juxtaposing Paul's statement in 1 Corinthians 15:51 that "we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed" is a mystery with the fact that they occur at the same time.

 

Peter will not be Raptured. He is a saint that was persecuted for Jesus and he will be resurrected after the Tribulation and will rule with Jesus over the Twelve Tribes of Israel. If Peter is taken out of the Kingdom, how can he rule with Jesus?

"Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while. And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshipped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection" (Rev. 20:1-5).

Immediately upon Christ's return, after the Tribulation, He will preside over an earthly judgment. The nations (Isa. 34:1-2) of the earth will be brought to Israel and judged. Those who have blessed gthe Jews (Gen. 12:3; Ex. 23:22; Mat. 25:34-40) will enter (Mat. 25:34-40) into the millennial Kingdom but Christ will throw the enemies of Israel (Isa. 34:8;; 41:11-12; 60:12; Jer. 2:3; 10:25; 30:16, 20; Joel 3:2; Mat. 25:41-45) into hell. Also see Joel 3:1-2; 12-16.

As I see this judgment, Jesus will judge nations. Nations that blessed Israel will be spared. Nations that persecuted Israel will be dismantled. This has nothing to do with individual salvation. There will be people (like Nazi Germany) in these evil nations who secretly or overtly supported Israel, aided Israel, etc. God's angels will separate the wheat from the tares, i.e. the tares plucked up and taken while the wheat left for harvest.. I imagine that Jesus may make one of these men who aided Israel a king over the evil nation that was judged. Or Jesus may put an evil judged nation under the authority of a righteous nation.

The one taken is not the one who fled to the mountains. The one who flees is the righteous who is persecuted for Jesus' sake, and if killed will be resurrected to live in the kingdom. The man grinding at the mill and experiencing every day life is the Jew who is complacent. He does not give the Lord's coming a second thought. In my Post 73, I showed that the Twelve were well into the Tribulation. The majority of Jews in Israel were very complacent, grinding at the mill, marrying, eating, drinking--every-day life. But so were the people in the days of Noah. when God came and took them in judgment. Only Noah and his family escaped judgment.

In Zephaniah, God warns that he will punish those in complacency: "And it shall comd to pass at that time that I will search Jerusalem with lamps, and punish men who are settled in complacency...[ grinding at the mill, marrying, eating, drinking, as in the day of Noah]" (Zeph. 1:12). When Jesus came to Israel the first time, He lamented: "Israel should have known this was their time... [paraphrased]. But most slumbered and did not care.

When Jesus sends His angels to remove "all that offends," all the tares from all the nations will be removed. The man in the mountain does not have to return to the field?????

TeeJay

 

Teejay, I did read your post 73 before I even started posting in this thread, and you have a self contradiction here. Here you say that Peter will be resurrected after the Tribulation, but then you also say that the Twelve were already well into the Tribulation.

So, let's backtrack and clarify something. Is it your position that the abomination of desolation has already happened? Is it your position that the Tribulation that follows it has already happened? Is it your position that the signs in the heavens and the return of the Son of Man on clouds of heaven that immediately follow the tribulation of those days have happened? Where are we in this sequence of events (1-abomination of desolation, 2-great tribulation, 3-signs in heaven and Son of Man returning) that Jesus describes in Matthew 24?

TeeJay, the straws you are grasping at in order to impose your TG/Open Theology eisegesis on Matthew 24 are getting thinner and more convoluted as we go. Your complacent Jew scenario once again doesn't solve the dilemma presented by Jesus, but rather ignores it. Why did Jesus tell those in Judea to flee to the mountains? To avoid complacency? No, to avoid the great tribulation that will be so bad that "unless those days were shortened no flesh would be saved." Your complacent Jew in the field will be dead if he does not leave the field at the AoD. Furthermore, it ignores the dichotomy that Jesus presents where one is taken, but one is left. If two men being in the field (and two women grinding at the mill) is complacency, then both the one taken and the one left are guilty of that. Why is one taken and one left? Being righteous or unrighteous, complacent or not, has nothing to do with why they are in the field.

With regard to your last question, you are begging the question! You are assuming that the two in the field is at the end of the tribulation. The answer is, no, the man in the mountain does not have to return to the field because the two being in the field has nothing to do with the end of the tribulation and the removal of the tares.



#119 Teejay

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 04:33 PM

TeeJay, I already dealt with this (false) claim in my post above. Nowhere does Paul refer to the Rapture (catching up--GK=harpadzo=ἁρπάζω) or the coming of the Lord (coming--GK=parousia=παρουσία) as a mystery. You are simply juxtaposing Paul's statement in 1 Corinthians 15:51 that "we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed" is a mystery with the fact that they occur at the same time.


Paul being chosen as the "apostle to the Gentiles," the establishment of the Body of Christ, the gospel of grace, and God bypassing Israel and going directly to the Gentiles was a mystery never before revealed or prophesied.  The "time of Jacob's trouble" or the Tribulation is for Israel.  Paul clearly teaches that we (members of the Body) are spared from the "wrath that is to come" (Tribulation).  So, if Israel is to go through the Tribulation and we are spared from it, then only Paul could have spoken of the Rapture.  We will be taken out BEFORE God pushes the start button for Tribulation.  Now if the Body, Paul going directly to the Gentiles (bypassing Israel), and the grace gospel was a mystery never before revealed or prophesied, then why is the Rapture of the Body not also a mystery?  Taking what is for the Body and trying to put it back on Israel is not logical.  When God cut off the nation of Israel for unbelief, the Tribulation for the Twelve was put on hold as well.  Nothing concerning the Body of Christ was revealed; thus, everything concerning the Body was mystery. 
 
 
 

Teejay, I did read your post 73 before I even started posting in this thread, and you have a self contradiction here. Here you say that Peter will be resurrected after the Tribulation, but then you also say that the Twelve were already well into the Tribulation.


No.  I did not say it.  The Bible verses from Jesus and the Book of Acts say that the signs that Jesus gave were fulfilled in the first half of the Book of Acts.  I did not make this up out of whole cloth.
 

So, let's backtrack and clarify something. Is it your position that the abomination of desolation has already happened? Is it your position that the Tribulation that follows it has already happened? Is it your position that the signs in the heavens and the return of the Son of Man on clouds of heaven that immediately follow the tribulation of those days have happened? Where are we in this sequence of events (1-abomination of desolation, 2-great tribulation, 3-signs in heaven and Son of Man returning) that Jesus describes in Matthew 24?


To be clear, the “day of the Lord” is the whole last week (7 years) of Daniel’s prophesy.  The “coming of the Lord” is the end of the Tribulation (not when He comes to Rapture the Body).  In answer to your question:  “Where are we….”  We are in heaven.  I gave you the Scripture that shows our citizenship is in heaven while Israel’s citizenship is earthly, in the kingdom.  The “day of the Lord” or the Tribulation will not begin until we (members of the Body) depart.  Every saint who died under Paul’s gospel of grace is now in heaven awaiting the rapture of their physical bodies.  Then those members of the Body who are alive will be Raptured bodily. Those who alive will not die.

TeeJay, the straws you are grasping at in order to impose your TG/Open Theology eisegesis on Matthew 24 are getting thinner and more convoluted as we go. Your complacent Jew scenario once again doesn't solve the dilemma presented by Jesus, but rather ignores it. Why did Jesus tell those in Judea to flee to the mountains? To avoid complacency? No, to avoid the great tribulation that will be so bad that "unless those days were shortened no flesh would be saved." Your complacent Jew in the field will be dead if he does not leave the field at the AoD. Furthermore, it ignores the dichotomy that Jesus presents where one is taken, but one is left. If two men being in the field (and two women grinding at the mill) is complacency, then both the one taken and the one left are guilty of that. Why is one taken and one left? Being righteous or unrighteous, complacent or not, has nothing to do with why they are in the field.


“Every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire” (Mat. 3:9-12).  Israel was to be God’s evangelical nation to the world.  Any Jew who will be complacent, who reasons that “his master will not come soon,” and is not doing the will of his master, will be punished.  Jesus was warning the Jews of the coming Tribulation and that it would be a good idea to know what the signs were and it would be a good idea to flee to the mountains—not to avoid complacency but to avoid persecution.  But many Jews will not heed the warnings.  In the first half of the Book of Acts, were there complacent Jews who did not heed Jesus warnings or the Twelve’s?  Yes.  The majority of Israel rejected their risen Messiah and were cut off.  I reason that some who do not heed Jesus’ warning and do not flee at an early stage, will be caught up in persecution and will be unable to flee; yet some of them who do not flee will not ;necessarily be judged unrighteous by Jesus.  About 2/3 of the Jews will be killed.  Realize that these people will be Jews who will not reside in heaven; they will enter the earthly kingdom with Jesus.  Why do both people in the field have to be the same?  If the same, why is one taken in judgment and one left.  Yes.  The one taken is taken in judgment Just as during the Flood, all but Noah and his family were taken in judgment.  Yes.  I am using my TG/open theology position.  But so are you trying to impose your opposite position.  This is like the atheist who is raised by atheist parents accusing the Christian of being a Christian because he was raised by Christian parents. We should address the argument presented instead of attacking the arguer.

With regard to your last question, you are begging the question! You are assuming that the two in the field is at the end of the tribulation. The answer is, no, the man in the mountain does not have to return to the field because the two being in the field has nothing to do with the end of the tribulation and the removal of the tares.

 
But my assumption is not groundless.  Jesus comes back (second coming) at the end of the Tribulation.  So, I can logically assume that is when these things will happen. 
 
I am bowing out of this.  Bone, Jesus could not have spoken of the Rapture of the Body that did not exist and would not exist if Israel had accepted their risen Messiah.  And yes, I am an open theist.  That Jesus sent his Twelve to get killed trying to persuade Israel to accept their risen Messiah all the while having preordained Israel to reject their risen Messiah is a pill (or a God) I can’t swallow.
 
God bless, TeeJay



 

#120 Bonedigger

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 04:52 PM

To be clear, the “day of the Lord” is the whole last week (7 years) of Daniel’s prophesy.  The “coming of the Lord” is the end of the Tribulation (not when He comes to Rapture the Body).  In answer to your question:  “Where are we….”  We are in heaven.  I gave you the Scripture that shows our citizenship is in heaven while Israel’s citizenship is earthly, in the kingdom.  The “day of the Lord” or the Tribulation will not begin until we (members of the Body) depart.  Every saint who died under Paul’s gospel of grace is now in heaven awaiting the rapture of their physical bodies.  Then those members of the Body who are alive will be Raptured bodily. Those who alive will not die.

 

Actually, TeeJay, I wasn't asking where we (the body of Christ) are when this is going on. I was asking where in the timeline we are today. Your statement that the Twelve were well into the Tribulation implied that the abomination of desolation had already occurred.

 

I am bowing out of this...


God bless, TeeJay

 

I'm okay with that TeeJay. We're starting to repeat ourselves. I think I have made the points I wanted to make, and I'll let the reader decide whether I have done so adequately.

 

God Bless you too






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