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The Second Coming


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#121 Dig4gold

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 05:39 AM

TJ: Paul being chosen as the "apostle to the Gentiles," the establishment of the Body of Christ, the gospel of grace, and God bypassing Israel and going directly to the Gentiles was a mystery never before revealed or PROPHESIED. (emphasis mine)


Amos 3:6-7 6 If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble?
If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?
7 Surely the Lord God does nothing
Unless He reveals His secret counsel
To His servants the prophets.

Did you catch that? The Lord God does NOTHING without revealing it to His prophets. (Not even a trumpet blown in a city)

#122 Teejay

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 08:02 AM

TJ: Paul being chosen as the "apostle to the Gentiles," the establishment of the Body of Christ, the gospel of grace, and God bypassing Israel and going directly to the Gentiles was a mystery never before revealed or PROPHESIED. (emphasis mine)


Amos 3:6-7 6 If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble?
If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?
7 Surely the Lord God does nothing
Unless He reveals His secret counsel
To His servants the prophets.

Did you catch that? The Lord God does NOTHING without revealing it to His prophets. (Not even a trumpet blown in a city)

 

Dig,

 

Is Paul a false prophet?

 

TeeJay



#123 Dig4gold

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 08:39 AM

Was this "mystery" revealed in the Scriptures by God's Prophits? Remember that in Paul's day the only Scripture was the Tanach.

 

Acts 3:17-26 17 And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers did also. 18 But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His [h]Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the [i]Christ appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must receive until the [j]period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time. 22 Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet [k]like me from your brethren; to Him you shall give heed to everything He says to you. 23 And it will be that every soul that does not heed that prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ 24 And likewise, all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and his successors onward, also announced these days. 25 It is you who are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant which God [l]made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’ 26 For you first, God raised up His [m]Servant and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways.”

 

 

Are we to believe that in direct opposition to the clear Gospel of the Scriptures that was spoken by all of the Prophets that there is ANOTHER gospel that the Prophets never spoke about?

 

Please explain.



#124 Teejay

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 09:10 PM

Was this "mystery" revealed in the Scriptures by God's Prophits? Remember that in Paul's day the only Scripture was the Tanach.

 

Acts 3:17-26 17 And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers did also. 18 But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His [h]Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the [i]Christ appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must receive until the [j]period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time. 22 Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet [k]like me from your brethren; to Him you shall give heed to everything He says to you. 23 And it will be that every soul that does not heed that prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ 24 And likewise, all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and his successors onward, also announced these days. 25 It is you who are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant which God [l]made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’ 26 For you first, God raised up His [m]Servant and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways.”

 

 

Are we to believe that in direct opposition to the clear Gospel of the Scriptures that was spoken by all of the Prophets that there is ANOTHER gospel that the Prophets never spoke about?

 

Please explain.

Dig,

This is proof positive that you do not read your opponent's posts.  I posted an answer to this with chapter and verse.  To sum up what I posted and you did not read:

 

Everything for Israel was prophesied.  Paul clearly says that "the dispensation of the grace gospel that was given to me [Paul]..."  He says this numerous times.  He also says that the grace gospel was not prophesied but was a "mystery never before revealed."  He called it "my gospel."  He said that he did not receive his gospel from any man (not Peter or James, or John) but directly from Jesus Christ.  He said, "follow me as I follow Christ."  He claimed that he was the first man saved by grace "as a pattern" for the rest of us.  I purposely did not give you the verses here because I have hope that if you read them yourself from your Bible, maybe you will believe Paul.  But I guess you can conveniently ignore Paul just as you ignore the verses when I reference them.

Is Paul a false prophet?

 

TeeJay



#125 HammerOfGod

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 07:03 PM

Really guys?  On this thread too?  



#126 Bonedigger

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 07:14 PM

Really guys?  On this thread too?  

 

25r30wi.gif I think you'll find that TJ and Dig go at it with the same debate on just about every thread in the Bible Q&A section. Maybe I've just gotten too used to it. We may have to curtail that...maybe start posting off_topic.gifoff_topic.gifoff_topic.gif every time they do. wink.png



#127 HammerOfGod

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 07:36 PM

3ztzsjm.gif

 

gaah.gif

 

 

get_a_clue.gif



#128 Dig4gold

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 05:20 PM

I would love to stay on topic. Could the moderators moderate when someone takes the thread off on a tangent? I am not accusing anybody of anything but it appears that some people are above this scrutiny.

#129 Dig4gold

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 05:28 PM

By the way Hammer, congratulations on becoming a moderator, I've noticed most of your posts have concerned keeping others in line. Well done!

#130 HammerOfGod

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 06:25 PM

Lol Dig!  No, no thanks on becoming a moderator...

 

 

I have enough trouble just moderating myself!



#131 MarkForbes

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Posted 08 June 2015 - 01:35 PM

Thanks, that's an interesting read, and good food for thought. Looks like you and TJ diverge on this some, but not by much. For those who don't agree with pre-trib rapture,  I like what Chuck Missler said... "That's fine, we'll explain it to you on the way up". :)

I wonder how that will be, when it's the other way round? 

 

Will the post-trib then have to explain it to the pre-tribbers, when Christians are persecuted, hunted down, jailed, killed etc.?



#132 Fred Williams

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Posted 08 June 2015 - 02:17 PM

I wonder how that will be, when it's the other way round? 

 

Will the post-trib then have to explain it to the pre-tribbers, when Christians are persecuted, hunted down, jailed, killed etc.?

 

I think it would be a fun debate for a post-triber to take up the mangle and see where it goes. Any takers? You could either start a new thread, or based on the topic of this one it could probably just continue here....

 

Fred



#133 Calypsis4

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Posted 08 June 2015 - 05:33 PM

I wonder how that will be, when it's the other way round? 

 

Will the post-trib then have to explain it to the pre-tribbers, when Christians are persecuted, hunted down, jailed, killed etc.?

 

They are already being persecuted, hunted down, jailed, and killed.

 

I am pre-trib and pre-mill all the way. Come quickly, Lord Jesus.



#134 MarkForbes

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Posted 09 June 2015 - 03:11 AM

I think it would be a fun debate for a post-triber to take up the mangle and see where it goes. Any takers? You could either start a new thread, or based on the topic of this one it could probably just continue here....

I may have to go thoroughly through this thread first to appreciate what has already been said.
And I would have to search for explanations by representatives of the various positions (Apparently there are more then two). Chuck Missler was a great hint on that. Already captured some text of him.

Secondly I'll also have to list relevant scripture.
 

They are already being persecuted, hunted down, jailed, and killed.

Certainly not in dispute and I could supply more on this, if there is interest.
However this kind of tough persecution isn't global at the moment.

#135 piasan

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Posted 09 June 2015 - 05:53 AM

Will the post-trib then have to explain it to the pre-tribbers, when Christians are persecuted, hunted down, jailed, killed etc.?

They are already being persecuted, hunted down, jailed, and killed.

Certainly not in dispute and I could supply more on this, if there is interest.
However this kind of tough persecution isn't global at the moment.

Religious persecution of Christians has always gone on somewhere in the world.  That is nothing new.  Up until fairly recent times, the persecution was even Christian vs. Christian.  (ie:  The war in North Ireland.)



#136 MarkForbes

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Posted 09 June 2015 - 06:14 AM

Religious persecution of Christians has always gone on somewhere in the world.  That is nothing new.  Up until fairly recent times, the persecution was even Christian vs. Christian.  (ie:  The war in North Ireland.)

Civil war in Northern Ireland isn't persecution of Christians, nor is it Christian terrorism as sometimes asserted (IRA are Marxists with Nationalist underpinnings). Essentially that conflict is by two ethnic groups (or those claiming to speak for them) who happen to belong to different Christian denominations.

You are of course right that through history Christians were persecuted somewhere for their face (but to my knowledge never raptured out of it).

#137 piasan

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Posted 09 June 2015 - 06:35 AM

Civil war in Northern Ireland isn't persecution of Christians, nor is it Christian terrorism as sometimes asserted (IRA are Marxists with Nationalist underpinnings). Essentially that conflict is by two ethnic groups (or those claiming to speak for them) who happen to belong to different Christian denominations.

Well, I would argue that the conflict in Norther Ireland had its roots in the British occupation but it most definately ended up being a war between Protestants and Catholics.   There were many such wars and persecutions from the time of Luther .... Christians against Christians because of religious differences.



#138 Calypsis4

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Posted 09 June 2015 - 10:08 AM

Mark:


 

Certainly not in dispute and I could supply more on this, if there is interest.
However this kind of tough persecution isn't global at the moment.

 

 

I don't disagree with that, Mark.

 

I have a question for you though: if the post-trib view is the truth in biblical prophecy and all Christians will be raptured at Christ's visible second coming...and if we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is (sinless, perfect, complete) and if we will indeed be like the angels and not marry nor are given in marriage any longer...then who will be left to repopulate the earth during the millenial reign of Christ? (Isaiah 65 & 66 'child shall die an hundred years old' etc.)

 

I hope you are having a great day.



#139 MarkForbes

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Posted 09 June 2015 - 03:13 PM

...
 
I have a question for you though: if the post-trib view is the truth in biblical prophecy and all Christians will be raptured at Christ's visible second coming...and if we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is (sinless, perfect, complete) and if we will indeed be like the angels and not marry nor are given in marriage any longer...then who will be left to repopulate the earth during the millenial reign of Christ? (Isaiah 65 & 66 'child shall die an hundred years old' etc.)

Interesting question.
Wouldn't that be an issue for a pre-trib view as well.

Still thinking about the right approach to the discussion. At the moment I consider taken one or more scripture relating to subject and then discuss them and how they support / contradict the views (I id'ied pre-trib, mid-trib, prewrath, post-trib etc. - I noticed those views aren't homogeneous neither).

#140 Calypsis4

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Posted 10 June 2015 - 07:43 AM

Mark Forbes:

 

Interesting question.
Wouldn't that be an issue for a pre-trib view as well.

 

 

 

No, because there will be sinners saved during the 7 yr tribulation and some of them will survive to see Jesus coming in the clouds. They will live on into the millenial kingdom and bear offspring.
 

Still thinking about the right approach to the discussion. At the moment I consider taken one or more scripture relating to subject and then discuss them and how they support / contradict the views (I id'ied pre-trib, mid-trib, prewrath, post-trib etc. - I noticed those views aren't homogeneous neither).

 

 

 

 

O.K. We'll see how this plays out.

 

Have a great day, Mark.






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