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Death Before Adam's Sin?


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#41 MamaElephant

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 03:39 AM

Fair and Righteous judgment cannot include being merciful. Why? Where would you draw the line in being merciful? In fact since you use the word, why not make a list of what you think God should be merciful about and allow into heaven regardless of anything else. Do you see the problem? Being merciful does not really have any defining line between right and wrong.

The book of 1 John tells me that if someone accepts Jesus as the Christ then they are a child of God. A child of God stops sinning. So it is simple really. Accept Jesus and be saved. None of these complicated scenarios of who should be forgiven and who shouldn't are needed.

#42 ikester7579

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 10:18 AM

The book of 1 John tells me that if someone accepts Jesus as the Christ then they are a child of God. A child of God stops sinning. So it is simple really. Accept Jesus and be saved. None of these complicated scenarios of who should be forgiven and who shouldn't are needed.


And that borders on making salvation a ticket to sin and here's why. you are saying that Salvation is all that matters, so it does not matter about sin or forgiveness. A child of God is not perfect so therefore stopping sin completely would be impossible in today's society with sin all around us. A person would have to be in a protected environment to even be able to attempt a sinless life.

The other part of this is: Why even have judgment if salvation is all that is needed? Judgment means some will make it some won't. A preconceived one sided judgment where everyone was going to be judged innocent is what? A rigged judgment. In fact having one sided judgment does not even define what judgment is suppose to be.

If you knew you were going to a court room where everyone was guilty regardless of what they did, what would you think of that court and that judge?

If you went to a court room where everyone was innocent regardless what they did, what would you think of that court and that judge?

It's like why even waste your time if everyone is going to be innocent or guilty. Come to the court where everyone is always innocent. Come to the court where everyone is guilty. What's being judged when the verdict is prearranged?

#43 MamaElephant

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 10:51 AM

My point is that once someone is a child of God they no longer sin. I am trying to point out the order of things... one can expect help to stop sinning when they come to Christ.

??

#44 ikester7579

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 12:29 PM

My point is that once someone is a child of God they no longer sin. I am trying to point out the order of things... one can expect help to stop sinning when they come to Christ.

??


Are you trying to say that sin is no longer sin once saved?

#45 SeeJay

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 07:41 PM

My point is that once someone is a child of God they no longer sin. I am trying to point out the order of things... one can expect help to stop sinning when they come to Christ.


I don't believe one can expect not to sin this side of judgement. Paul wrote of struggling with sin. However, I think salvation means one will not want to sin i.e. not live in sin, even though one might actually commit sins. This would be one of the fruits of the Spirit (Matthew 7:16-20).

And that borders on making salvation a ticket to sin and here's why. you are saying that Salvation is all that matters, so it does not matter about sin or forgiveness. ...


Matthew 7:21-23 (This is right after Jesus talked about the fruit) Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

This is a difficult issue. On the one hand, as pointed out, there is the danger of "easy believism" or "lip service" salvation: does one only have to repent and say one accepts Jesus, and then forget all about it and go on living a life of sin? Of course not!

On the other hand, the Bible is clear that we are saved by grace through faith alone in Christ as Saviour, not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9). The price of our sin has already been paid in full, and there are no works we can do to increase this (Hebrews 10:10-14). Therefore, how can anyone have the right to make up a list of works that are expected if one is to be counted amongst the saved?

To be sure, we would expect the Spirit to show through in a person's actions and grow over time; but it seems to me that God's works are not always on the timetable we would expect.

The other part of this is: Why even have judgment if salvation is all that is needed? Judgment means some will make it some won't.


I believe the judgement will be to sort out the "lip-service" believers and others of false faith. Just because someone appears to be a Christian to us doesn't mean they are in their heart, where God sees and judges accordingly.

Cheers

#46 MamaElephant

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 07:58 PM

Are you trying to say that sin is no longer sin once saved?

No.

I don't believe one can expect not to sin this side of judgement. Paul wrote of struggling with sin. However, I think salvation means one will not want to sin i.e. not live in sin, even though one might actually commit sins.

More like this.

#47 ikester7579

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 08:46 PM

No. More like this.


You were not making that clear. And helping run a ministry I have to make sure people don't get the wrong idea. Of course if you are truly saved you change and will not want to sin. But that does not mean you can never sin again which was what I got from your posts.

With due respect, if you mean something different you need to explain it and not make short posts that imply the same thing over and over. I cannot read minds. And I surely don't know all that you believe about Christianity. Just like you don't know all that I believe. But what if I were vague?... If you want to teach, and evangelize here (be a contributor), you have to make yourself more clear. Because if I am confused, imagine how the "new in Christ" feel when they read what you said? Why do you think I go to all the trouble to explain something? It's because I want everyone who reads it to be able to understand. Leaving people confused does zip for a ministry.

#48 SeeJay

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 04:18 PM

It's the only righteous and fair way to judge. And since God has the ability to know a man's heart and mind without him having to speak it means that no man will end up in Heaven or hell that does not deserve to be there.


There's no doubt about that.

So what about those who, in all honesty and humility, after careful study, serious consideration of the alternatives pointed out to them, and with the full support of their elders and ministers, "know" in their heart that the scriptures allow for a poetical interpretation of the creation timeline, and allow for evolution?

If you cannot find evolution explained in some way in God's word, then what believed is inserted. But God also knew that evolution would be taught and here is what is said:
deut 32:18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.


TEs find evolution explained in Genesis, in poetic form. And TEs do not forget God, but give credit to Him as the Creator of all, unlike Israel and the Jeshurun in Deut 32.

... Will they be judged harshly because, in spite of their heart being sincere, they "should have known better"? Or will God judge them mercifully because they have fulfilled the requirements of salvation, in spite of their other errors -- after all, we are all sinners?

The other thing you are trying to convey is that salvation is a ticket to sin. As long as we get the salvation part right we can sin and lie about God? Salvation is not a ticket to sin which includes lying. ...
You see if God allows even one person into Heaven for willful sin, then everyone from Hell gets to go to Heaven as well. Where we draw the line in the middle of sin, God draws the line at the beginning of sin.


Yes, salvation is not a ticket to sin. And yet nevertheless we all sin and we all fall short (Rom 3:10), yes even those born again.

I'm not sure what you mean by willful sins; I'm struggling to think of some other kind of sin besides willful.

Jesus said "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Matt 5:28) He is telling us about the high standards of God's holiness, and I doubt anyone could keep all the commandments for even a single day, let alone a lifetime, including letting other things come before God, bearing false witness, and covetousness. So the fact that someone commits sins doesn't really tell us much about their salvation.

Paul gave the Corinthians advice about who is definitely not Christian (1 Cor 5:11): He said don't associate with the s*xually immoral, the greedy, idolaters, slanderers, drunkards or swindlers; don't even share a meal with them. These are all characters who exhibit a persistent, unregenerate habit of sinning, and as such clearly they are not among the saved.

Perhaps this is where TEs and YECs don't see eye-to-eye: to the YEC, harmonising Genesis and evolution as part of one's faith involves persistent and unregenerate slandering of God's word; whilst to the TE, this is not lying and slander but humble truth-seeking about scripture and nature.

Since both sides cite scripture, church leaders, the early church fathers and science in support of their positions, how should one go about resolving this difference?

Cheers

#49 MamaElephant

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 04:41 AM

Since both sides cite scripture, church leaders, the early church fathers and science in support of their positions, how should one go about resolving this difference?

I can tell you how I did. ;)
I am a YEC because I was raised a OE and the belief was so full of inconsistencies that it simply led to confusion. I decided to research it all and decide what made the most sense to me.

I read up on evolution (the most help there was The Top 10 Myths about Evolution) and decided that it made no sense. The probability is just so so slim. I choose YEC because if I allow OE thinking to affect my interpretation of the Bible it leads to more confusion. Is this part literal or figurative? Taking God at his word has released me from cult leaders who would use their mental gymnastics and fanciful explanations to keep me away from Christ and in bondage to lies, guilt, fear, unnecessary rules, etc. etc.

I will post more on this in the testimony section.

#50 jason

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 04:07 AM

at seejay

why arent you a calvinist? if god ordained and wanted men to suffer by design without any respect to their sin or relationship to him why then are you not a calvinist or reformed?

and no calvinists in general dont buy the toe.

surely you must see the idea that if god meant man to die physically why then would he tell adam that he would die?

the church has always taught that man was meant to live forever.

#51 AFJ

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 03:28 AM

Well, I'm not sure how to answer this. It's a complicated question.

Perhaps you could give me the scriptural definition of "death" that you're referring to, since scripture seems to refer to various kinds of death. Usually people put an adjective in front to give an indication e.g. "spiritual death", "physical death", "animal death", "plant death" etc.

Hi Seejay,
Death is a seperation which causes an end of a phase of existence. Spiritual death is the seperation of your spririt from God, and physical death is the seperation of your spirit from your body.

I'm not going to cite things, because I'm very tired, so I referr you to Genesis. God did say "in the day" that you eat of the fruit, "you shall die." Many times in scripture we see "in the day" or "in that day." I've found that it generally has the connotation of something that can begin with precursor process which ends in culmination of the completed process. For instance, take salvation, there's the expression among Bible believers, "we were saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved." Theologically, we were saved at the cross, so we go to the cross for salvation. That same cross (Romans ch.6) is something we walk in--so we are being saved by it day by day. And we will be saved from this world and death, when Christ returns.

So I think we can say that Adam and Eve died on the day they sinned. They became seperated from the previous relationship they had had with God, and now they had to enter into a relationship based on the substitutionary death of an animal. If a person did not come by that route (e.g. Cain) he remained seperated from God. Cain was banished, because he was warned about the sin (first) of his bloodless sacrifice (crops), and then the murder of his brother. So the Bible (Romans 7) teaches that death even "works" in us. Sin and death are working to destroy--a kind of spiritual entropy.

But finally Adam and Eve died physically as a culmination of their sin. They passed the corruption of sin and death to the entire world (creation). Paul even called it the "law of sin and death" in Romans 8:2, and also states that...

Romans 8:19...

The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21thati the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.


You said, "Paul tells us the sting of death is sin, which implies that physical death is not bad or evil in relation to things that do not sin, like plants. Therefore, plant death likely has nothing to do with Christ's redemptive sacrifice."

So, according to the apostle Paul, even plants will be "recreated" in a more perfect and eternal creation when Christ returns. This is the blessed hope we have as believers!!

#52 SeeJay

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 07:17 PM

at seejay

why arent you a calvinist? if god ordained and wanted men to suffer by design without any respect to their sin or relationship to him why then are you not a calvinist or reformed?

and no calvinists in general dont buy the toe.


Because I'm Lutheran -- Yes, God preordains some to be His children, salvation is by grace and not by works. However Lutherans do not believe God predestines anyone to damnation, because of e.g. James 1:17. We also accept human free will; the exact relationship between predestination and free will is a mystery, as Luther taught.

surely you must see the idea that if god meant man to die physically why then would he tell adam that he would die?

the church has always taught that man was meant to live forever.


My reading shows the early church fathers are divided on this question. Augustine, Theophilus and Clement held that human physical mortality was part of the original creation and not the result of the Fall -- possibly Origen too, and there may be others.

And, of course, a common reading for TEs of Genesis 2:16-17 is that God is warning of spiritual death -- separation from God -- not physical death. Some suggest the "day" was not meant to be literal, but I believe the spiritual death interpretation has much more Biblical support. For example, the Lord said "The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die" (John 11:25-26) Clearly spiritual death is in view here.

Cheers

#53 jason

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 03:48 AM

origen was a gnostic, and is a heretic.

and lets stick to the bible and not man shall we as the bible is our "solo scriptura"


now then was made made for the earth?

and if so then why does the new life not consist on earth forever?

oh wait it does.

revalation 21

1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.






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