Some comments to Moose from Lou:
You make some assumptions with what you have articulated.. Might I point out that the pre-flood fossil record given a wwFlood shows that animals of all kinds which live today lived then including dinos?
Yes I do see that in the current more widely accepted flood model. However I feel that the flood model fails to admit to the fact that there was a swampy easily fossilising environment before the flood. This geologic layer is one of the lowest layers and is easily defined by the type of amphibians, huge dragonflies etc etc. This environment is not found today, it has become extinct. This environment existed before the flood. This environment would have had 1750 years of swamp fossils, unlike other environments which do not fossilize easily.
The current flood model which assumes nearly all fossils were created during the flood does not acknowledge this different pre-flood world. I do agree with you though that many of the non-swampy environments covered over by the flood could be incorrectly assumed to be later by evolutionists based on their assumptions on the timeline of the development of fauna/flora, when they could easily be synonymous with the swampy environments.
Do you assume a long age in your formula?
I assume a short age, all biological life being created within the last 6500 years. I believe the watery earth was created before the six days in which biological life was created.
So I am not trying to “make” you anything—I suggest to you that clearly the evidence does indeed show a Designer and creator as the basis for all life and the planet(s) no unguided mechanism could be responsible for this. I can share 5 or 6 good examples of lizard species that are found in different parts of the world. But these design features are found over and over and over in nature. Good design is used over and over—the wheel for instance on a bike, a plane, a wheel barrow, a car, etc. So if you get a hold of design, you can only conclude a designer.... For me design is evidence and convincing evidence given the design features I am aware of in the animal kingdom alone....
My point here is, there need not be any long time per se. Only because we have historical narrative which I believe is accurate. I think men are working hard to find out what it all says in context. Faith and hermeneutics are a very sticky place, for one such as yourself who has no obsession to or a profound sense of accountability to a creator, it is natural that you have the perspective you do. You see your self as a specie? Nothing special just a specie? That as you know is a big gulf between us....
The greatest scientists of old were indeed Christians who wanted to glorify God in there science and discover the secrets of how God did what he did.
(ps I do have a sense of accountability to a creator - I am a Christian creationist)
So as a side note I am involved with reptiles and have studied lizards for over 40 years. Here is what I can share with you:
The Texas Horned lizard, the Gila Monster, the desert Collared lizard all have fossil records, as does the Tuatara, and many other diversity such as geckos in amber encased , and wall lizards, and others. All of these have a presence in the fossil record, what is interesting about that is not one of those animals have changed at all, and it is my contention that these are the same today as when originally created.....so I would be a “fixity of species” type person for good reasons which I can expand on later.
Agreed! I also believe in a fixity of species.
I wasn't suggesting an evolutionary response to conditions, I am a creationist. I was suggesting a proliferation when conditions are suitable. Huge numbers of the suitable life-forms, minimal numbers and occasional extinctions of the non-suitable life forms. In another environment there could be very few large cat predators and huge numbers of Komodo dragons. At the moment Komodo dragons are few. The relative proliferation of amphibians/reptiles/mammals was strictly according to environmental conditions. I am a creationist and looking at the lowest flood layers covered "in situ" I see a moist pre-flood world with high oxygen conditions, high atmospheric pressure (huge insects) and a cool world. There were very few mammals or large reptiles then, conditions were not suitable.
- Each type of fauna proliferates when conditions are suitable. The main variation in environmental conditions are :
1) Moisture content
2) Oxygen content in the air
3) Oxygen content in the oceans
5) Air pressure
6) Magnetic fields (protection from solar winds)
7) Atmospheric strength (protection from solar winds)
It is an undeniable fact given good conditions all life responds to those conditions. That’s a fact, these things that you have above are part and parcel to “good life”.
True! Remember I am a creationist who agrees on this. There are however atmospheric/dietary conditions that can change the look of fauna/flora even over a single generation, with no DNA effects at all. Merely response of the body to conditions. Plants placed in high pressure high oxygen chambers can grow enormous, with no DNA changes whatsoever.
However with respect to adaptation--no exterior condition can contribute change to DNA genetics. That is a fact, so if your referring to adaptation---this idea above I want to challenge you on. Animals have a max-min if you will and in certain circumstances if they are put beyond there own DNA design, they will go extinct. We know many of our diversity today are not found in areas that they formerly did live in., per fossil evidence and even mans written history. The pre-flood world was different than it is today, no doubt. But animals are not affected to the point of change by exterior forces. Other than if the eco-system does not contributed to its original God given design, it will perish. We have many examples of this in history? I suggest to you that in history every one of these issues you have stated have changed, and some drastically---
Taking a look at the polar bear that lived through the 1500’s warm up that completely caused the ice covered north to have it glaciers disappear as there are maps from many different sources showing the land masses with its coastlines clear. I suggest that the polar bear would go extinct if the temps had gotten too high, but the range of the heat up was still within its ability to survive, so all of these things have existed more or less including the oxygen levels which recent experiments have grown standard dragon flies in a oxygen rich environment that were 18” long. So the gigantism is possibly a result of the oxygen content. I am not dogmatic on that, but I know that oxygen content can affect growth, but not change the specie body plan..
Ok , you are saying what I have just said, so we are on the same page here. It may be an interesting thought to you that the methane releases caused by the dead vegetation and volcanic excesses during the flood could have caused a greenhouse effect and spike air pressures. creating huge reptiles from the smaller flood survivors. And so again, no DNA change but a massive change to the main survivors of the flood, reptiles. They grew to massive sizes soon after the flood, not before the flood.
USing the current flood model of which I'm sure you do adhere to, right in the middle of the flood you get these huge basalt flows. Above the flows you get a silted up environment with a few reptile fossils. Elsewhere above the swamp amphibian fossils you get a silted up sandy layer with a few surviving reptile fossils. then later you get the very proliferate large reptile fossils (dinos) . Your flood explanation says this is how the bodies drowned and yet fails to explain how the plants show a chemical change over that period from a low carbon 12 environment to a high carbon 12 environment during the flood. Even the dino environments show a lowered oxygen content together with a higher carbon 12 levels than earlier flood layers. My flood explanation says that small reptiles proliferated after the flood when conditions suited them, hot and dry. The high carbon 12 caused a greenhouse effect causing reptiles to grow, just as you explained that dragonflies can grow under certain conditions. And so my flood model is clearer as to why scientists are continuously recognizing UNIVERSAL TRENDS during the layering, something that the widely accepted flood model ignores completely, a head-in-the-sand approach. Observed are long periods of slight growth in oxygen and stability in carbon 12 levels in lower layers. Then a sudden spike in carbon 12 levels followed by a slow drop in oxygen levels. Your flood model fails to explain this, my flood model explains this perfectly. But my model has the additional beauty of associating the huge life-spans of pre-flood humans with the luscious Carboniferous period, and then the greatest death event of science (P-T boundary) is associated with the greatest death event of the bible (flood). Then the dropping life-spans after the flood are associated with the cometary impact that caused the dinosaur extinctions. It all fits perfectly except for evolutionist time-frames.
Of course this is hardly palatable to most creationists because this would be actually acknowledging that some studies of evolutionists have some merit, I have oberved that creationists reject most scientific studies due to their assumptions of evolutionary bias. However some of those studies contain fantastic information regarding the pre-flood and post-flood worlds when we remove the bias and look merely at the evidence presented. The evidence is often done honestly under strict scientific conditions , its their interpretation of the evidence that is faulty, the evidence however is informative...
Mammals were always there, dinosaurs were always there, humans were always there. But these fauna did not proliferate in the pre-flood easily fossilizing environments. Only easily fossilizing amphibians fossils are widespread during the pre-flood world.
I’ll have to disagree with you, need to read some of Dr. Carl Werner's work on fossils and the whole earth was covered in diversity pre-flood, no doubt. There are fossils under ash from pre-flood super volcanoes, Karoo, and the Canadian dinos....there are tons of evidence of a fully robust pre-flood world of animal species....
Ok I will read his work, thanks for that.
No problem with that, I am referring to PROLIFERATION through the ages. The tendency of some creatures to become the dominant species. I believe its in the 4350 years ago to about 3800 years ago that dinos were most common.
Small reptiles proliferated in the hot desert post-flood conditions. Reptiles became large in the hot high pressure environment a few hundred years later caused by the flood's methane spike that had a greenhouse effect on earth. Large reptiles largely died off during the comet strike approximately 3800 years ago that dropped temperatures and dropped oxygen content and dropped air pressures which the large dinosaurs could not handle. since then mammals have proliferated while the last dinos have been dying off.
Pre-flood dinos contained all the species T-rex, and other therapods and herbivorous dinos, etc:
Super volcanoes—Toba and original Vesuvius, and other Mexican volcanoes pre flood, all said to have affected the planet in such away that the dinos went extinct.?
How about the Canadian comet that hit the great bear lake area, or other such known hits of space objects during mans history. Lastly it is a fact that dinos lived up and into mans written history. That is a fact. The last dinos seemed to die off in mans history. I actually believe there may be dinos left in certain regions and hold out for such? Crazy me???? I am implying that God created them all and they were existent in a fully robust creation, and the need for millions of years are unnecessary in my own opinion. What does bother me, is there are so many explanations for dinos demise, volcanoes, climate change, flood, Meteor hits, and all of them are said to cause extinction? Something is wring with this???? Maybe we just don’t have the real right naswer yet, and so I am open to new ideas.....
I believe they went extinct post-flood. I agree that dinos have been around until recently and may just still exist.
I see no problem with accepting the scientific explanation for the extinction of the dinosaurs, a cometary impact. This would have caused an ice age (dust blocking out the sun). This would have caused the slipped disks widely observed in the more recent large dinosaur fossils. This would have killed off vegetation, dropping oxygen levels and atmospheric pressure. All would have made it difficult for dinosaurs after the impact. They need a warm high oxygen high pressure environment, the impact caused a cool low oxygen low pressure environment (in addition to breaking a lot of their backs). I believe the cometary impact occurred approximately 3800 years ago (bp) during the end of the Holocene Climate optimum and the end of the Old Civilization of Egypt.