I moved your post here so not to derail the thread over there. You post is the last one on the first page. I have no control over where the forum program places your post because it's in order of the date and time the post was made.
Ikester, I’m sorry I’ve misinterpreted you. Now I will address your post.
No problem, it happens.
“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day” (John 6:44). If we take this verse woodenly literal, we have to reason that the people who do not come to Jesus are doomed to eternity in Hell apart from their Creator God—simply because God the Father elected not to draw them to His Son.
God knows the heart of every individual, why draw someone whom is not ready to enter into a fake salvation that in the end can lead them to eternal damnation? God does this because He knows who's ready and who's not.
The phrase “raise him up” can’t mean judgment to condemnation, for then Jesus would be damning people who come to Him and Jesus said that he would cast no one out that came to him (John 6:37). And Jesus did say, “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL peoples to Myself” (John 12:32).
You are making osas sound like a universalism type belief in that all people will be saved regardless. I have been a osas believer at one time, I know it does not go that far.
Calvinism becomes unavoidable in that for some unknown reason, God the Father draws some but does not draw others. So if we compare John 6:44 with John 6:37 & 12:32, we have a violation of the law of non-contradiction. For it can’t possibly be true that God draws only some people and true that He draws all people at the same time and in the same way. The laws of logic are immaterial, universal, and absolute and as such can only come from the mind of an immaterial rational Being. Jesus said that “I am the truth…” If Jesus were illogical, He would be untruthful and would deny Himself. He can’t be illogical and remain logical and truthful. This is impossible even for God. In light of all this, can we dig a little deeper.
Like I said before, the determination of who gets drawn has nothing to do whether God wants them to be saved, it's whether their heart is ready to make such a commitment. In other words the time for salvation for each individual has to be right. And because we are all different that right timing is also different. If Dawkins suddenly realized he was all wrong, do you think God would not draw him because all that was done by him against God? Because if that's what you believe you are way off track.
2pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
First, let’s talk about being “raised up.” In John 6:39, 44, Jesus says that He will “raise him up at the last day.” In the Bible, there are two resurrections. The first resurrection is at the end of the Tribulation and it is for those who have not “worshipped the beast” (Rev. 20:4-5). And they will reign with Jesus for a thousand years (or the Millennium Kingdom). Revelation 20:4-5 specifically states that this is the “first” resurrection. One may ask: “Isn’t Jesus the first resurrection?” But Jesus makes it clear that He is not the first or second, but He states that He is “THE” Resurrection (John 11:25). (I am purposely leaving out the Rapture, because when Jesus spoke in John, He never mentioned the Rapture. The Rapture is for the Body of Christ and we are members of His Body. During His ministry, the establishment of the Body of Christ was a secret, was future and was contingent on Israel rejecting or accepting their risen Messiah. Now we may not want to get into the subject of the Rapture in this thread.) That’s okay but I just wanted to be clear.
The first rapture is the rapture of the church. AKA the meeting in the air.
1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air
: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The second and final resurrection occurs at the Great White Throne Judgment, when ALL the dead (minus members of the Body of Christ who are raptured physically and whose salvation is assured). See Revelation 20:11-15. Of course, Jesus also spoke of this same resurrection in John 5:28-29. And we must understand that this is a resurrection of physical bodies and only those in Hell will be judged to condemnation. Moses is with the Lord but his body is “of the dust of the earth” somewhere in the Middle East.
Second rapture is during the tribulation. When those who would not take the mark of the beast are killed for it. These will be taken straight way to Heaven and are given white robes. No one else that dies any other way during the tribulation goes to Heaven. In fact it is said that many people will try to bring death upon themselves (suicide) but death will not come and they only increased their suffering.
rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation
, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
The third rapture is the Great White Throne rapture.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
So, what could Jesus have meant when He told the Jews that they could not come to Him unless the Father draws them? Jesus warned that “If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true” (John 5:31). In the OT, a matter was established “by the mouth of two or three witnesses.” And of course Jesus provided more than two witness besides Himself—His Father in John 8:18, His miracles, and Moses and the prophets and the whole of the OT. Jesus told the Pharisees that if they had KNOWN the Father, they would have KNOWN Jesus (John 8:19). By not knowing the Father, it was impossible for them to know Jesus. Jesus’ accusing the Jews of not knowing their God was an accusation that did not sit well. I have often thought that if I were alive during Jesus’ ministry, I would have liked to have been a Velcro salesman. When Jesus opened His mouth, the Pharisees tore their robes. A Velcro salesman would have made a fortune with Jewish wives. So, instead of interpreting this Calvinisticly and illogically should we interpret John 6:44 through not only other Scripture, but through the true nature of God—that He desires that all men be saved.
You keep bringing up Calvinism, are you a Calvinist?
I admit that you did not reject Him. But could you have rejected Him?
And I still can just as you can.
Ikester, notice that “God gave them over to a reprobate mind” because “they did not like to retain God in their knowledge and not because He did not elect to draw them to Him. God wanted them to come to Him. Right? We have a church in my town that’s right in line with Titus 1:16. It’s filled with unrepentant h*m*sexuals who have told God that they will be h*mos*xual Christians. They have accepted God on their terms and not on His terms.
I never said God did not "elect" to draw people. He did not because they were not ready in their hearts to do so. What type of a saved person would it produce if people not ready to make such a commitment were drawn anyway? God is about doing it right because this is a major decision.
No, because I simply used these verses as an example of how the word “all” sometimes does not mean ALL. I am a OSAS proponent and I have looked at both sides of the issue. But believe it or not, I am not the Pope. I am not infallible. When I am convinced that something is true, I embrace it.
Or could it be because "all" would not be convenient?
I don’t think I gave you a “loaded question.” I understand a loaded question to be the logical fallacy of the complex question. Examples: Have you stopped beating your wife? Why are creationists against science? And whether you want to get into this is your call. If what you believe is true, it would not take a TON of Scripture quotes to convince me..
And that's why I consider debating a person who is set in the ways of osas a worthless debate. As to the reason I really did not want to debate the subject with you. There is no point to it when I cannot even put what you believe into question unless I had the power to move Heaven and earth. I don;t have that power. And I'm not going to go to that much trouble listing a ton of stuff only to find out it falls upon death ears. You believe what you do and never take into account there would ever be any correction of it. Problem is with that type of attitude only God can correct you. And if you think about that, I would not want to be in your shoes when you get to Heaven to find out there you are wrong, That's not the place you want to find that out.
Sometimes I can guess that two men coming to my door are Mormons simply by the way they are dressed. And after I find out for sure that they are Mormons, I KNOW they are not saved. But in answer to your first question: No. I can’t tell if someone is saved by looking them. Jesus can, but while God can judge the heart, we can only judge the flesh.
We are not the judge. And we are not to judge. When we become saved it does not make us the judge of everyone else. And I would challenge you to provide the verses that say we are. This is one of the reasons a lot atheists hate Christianity, We judge them as if we have the same power as God, then we live a life not much different from theirs and they see us as judgmental hypocrites. And it's people that do this that gets everyone else categorized like this and therefore messes up any chances we had of reaching any of them. Did you also know that it's this type of hate brewed from this type is wrong thinking that is going to feed the attitude of people to hate Christians so that they will stand in line to help the anti-Christ rid the world of us all?
If I observed them for a gazillion years, I could not determine if they are saved. If they tell me they are saved, I still do not know if they are saved. I must ask them WHY? If they answer, “Well I’m pretty good and I’ve never killed anyone,” then I know they are not saved. If they answer, “I am saved because I’ve repented of my sinful life and have asked God to forgive me and I have confessed with my mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in my heart that God has raised Him from the dead. I know I am saved because God has promised me this in His word” (Rom. 10:9-10). Now I will make an assertion here that may upset you: The Christian gospel of grace as preached by Paul is the only religion that assures salvation by faith plus nothing. And if you don’t know you are saved, you are not saved.
Still does not work. Words don't make it so. A unsaved sinner can memorize what you just said and when you ask repeat it just to keep you from bothering him. Words mean nothing unless the heart is involved. That is why God draws some people and not others. If the heart is not involved in the decision they make what's the point of drawing them? If God only draws certain people because he wants those people only, then that's being bias and the judgment would be unfair because then the salvation that is supposed to be given as a free gift is only given to those that are chosen. And the gift is not free if some people cannot have it. It's either free for all or it's not free,
God said that He knew David “when his bones were yet unformed.” Before we cracked the DNA code, many Christians interpreted this to mean that God knew us before we were alive. While God knows everything knowable that He wants to know, He can’t know you if you don’t exist. That’s not possible even for God. God rested on the seventh day from all his creation. While I can’t build a fence that won’t fall down next year, God’s creation functions quite well without His intervention. God loves all babies at CONCEPTION whether they are girls or boys. Can God change a boy to a girl? I would say yes. Would God change a boy to a girl just to satisfy the capricious whim of parents? I say no. God would be more pleased if we got on our knees and thanked Him for a healthy boy or girl. God is not in the miracle business today. Whenever He did miracles in the Bible, they had a specific purpose—to show Pharaoh and convince Israel (for the “Jews require a sign”), to His Twelve as seal of approval, and to Paul (in the initial stages of his ministry) to show the Twelve that Israel had been cut off and the mantle had been passed to Paul. If you do a careful study of all the miracles in the Bible and the peoples’ response to the miracles, the miracles produced negative results most of the time. In the cities where Jesus did most of His miracles, they totally rejected Him. Why? Because most people have a hardened heart towards God. A miracle shoves the truth of God in his face and proves Him wrong. People do not like to be proved wrong.
And now you are preaching predestination. Have you ever considered that the ways that the laws in eternity work as for the reason everything is known by God?
Example 1: When you are saved in Heaven your name is written in the book of life, right? So in Heaven where everything is eternal you would be considered eternal saved, right? But on earth where we still live and die and nothing is eternal our choices can change, So if we decide to leave Christ and get removed from the book of life is not that decision in Heaven considered eternal because everything is eternal while here we could still change our minds because we still have choices?
Example 2:When we get to Heaven how will it be determined when we got there when there is no beginning or end to be measured in eternity? Will we have a time and date record of when we arrived there or will the laws of eternity make us as if we always existed there?
You see for eternity to be eternal all things done that effect eternity are considered eternal. But because we have freewill here we can change it here which changes it there, That is only because the laws we abide by here are not the same there. That is why when God speaks of things eternal such as knowing someone before they were even born is because eternal knowledge means they already exist.
Eternity allows an eternal being to know the beginning and the end as to the reason God can know prophecy. So it only is reasonable that God will also already know everyone before they are born. But because of freewill God does not know how our lives will turn out in the end because if He did what would be the point of allowing us to make decisions that are already known and just go ahead and judge us. It's because in order for judgment to be fair, righteous and Holy. Every person has to have a chance to make the freewill choice of salvation.
Also what is the point of all the warnings of what not to do if our lives are predestined and the warnings won;t make any difference? That's like telling someone the stove is hot do not touch it when it's not been on all day. That's a unwarranted warning and a deception.
So basically the Calvinist belief does not even go along with what is contained in Gods word because nothing really matters if we are all predestined in the first place.
Example: Why should I try to save someone when they are already predestined for Heaven or Hell?
Why should I have 4 online ministries that I own or help run when it won;t make a difference because everyone is already predestined?
Why should I even try to live a Godly life as a good representation of Christ when my representation won;t make any difference because everyone is predestined?
And on and on I could go.
Calvinism is senseless belief that takes almost every part of God's word, and all our works for the kingdom, and makes them worthless. In fact why should I keep up the ministries I have when predestination makes all my efforts worthless?
Maybe if you can convince me I can take it all down, leave this forum and go on vacation and wait for the rapture? After all it all predestined right? So why should I do anything?
Now you might think that's mean to say. But if you think about it that is exactly what a predestined controlled no freewill life is all about. We would all be living in a matrix where everything we do is controlled by another. And we become puppets and God becomes our puppet master. What else could a predestined life be if it's truly all predestined?