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The Osas Debate.


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#61 Salsa

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 05:41 AM

Jesus or any circumcision apostle did not preach a gospel of grace where we are saved by faith plus nothing.


So what gospel did Jesus and co preach? If it wasn't a gospel of grace then how could it be called a gospel?

Many think that after the Cross Israel was no longer under the law.


I don't think I have heard anyone make that kind of a claim. I certainly don't, so I don't see what your point is. Anyone who receives Jesus as Lord and believes he was raised from the dead is no longer under the law, whether he is a Jew or a gentile.

If you were in Paul's church and you preached a circumcision gospel (law and works) , Gal. 2:7-9, he would beat you severly about the head and shoulders.


And how is that relevant to my post?

I did an earlier post on this that God made two covenants with Abraham, the first of grace and the second of law so that he could be the father of both groups.... Read it and get back to me.


Again, how is that relevant to my post? If anyone is in Christ, whether he be Jew or gentile, then he is no longer a Jew or a gentile, but a new creation.
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#62 MamaElephant

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 08:03 AM

Thank you Paul! I absolutely believe that Jesus preached the gospel of grace. That is what I was going to point out next. I need to get caught up on reading first though.

Gilbo, I was a Born Again Christian the minute I put my full trust in Jesus and accepted Him as God.

Full stop.

Trusting in Jesus that is all! Romans 10:9-13; Acts 16:31

The cult minister that helps my husband and I said that it takes a lot of JWs 10 years from the time they are open to listening to Christianity to the time they become a Christian but once someone puts their full trust in Jesus, they are His and being taught by Him. Romans 8:9; 1 John 2:27

#63 MamaElephant

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 08:16 AM

Does attending church get you special position in the judgment? Nope.

Absolutely right. Which is why we need to reach the unsaved that attend church and correct their mistaken beliefs, thus snatching them from the fire.

And the reason Hell is not preached about much is because even churches have politically correct rules.

No it is because the saved don't need to hear about it.

And the reason Hell is not preached about much is because even churches have politically correct rules. Most of the congregation that does not live their lives right and do nothing for the kingdom don;t want to hear about it. And since it's also these people who hire, fire, and decide what the preacher should make do you think the preacher wants to make them mad to ensure he no longer has a job?

I don't appreciate this apparent judgment of my pastor and church.

If today preachers took a stand in the church and said: I'm preaching what the Bible says period and I don;t care what you think how many do you think would get fired?

Not my pastor. That is why we love and trust him and why our church is small. Do you realize that my husband and I did not want church at all then we thought we would visit a lot of them to be safe... but now he doesn't care to go anywhere else... because the Spirit of God is there with those people. They understand deep spiritual things that other churches don't... and they display Christ's love.

And that's another reason I choose non-denominational. It allows me to adhere to God's word without having to filter it through a denomination interpretation of what it should say. Not having to question what the Holy spirit leads me to see allows me to follow without question.

That is good. There is also a danger. Doctrines are designed to protect against heresy. I don't have to accept all of my denominations doctrines, but I am glad to know that they are there. I had to write up doctrines for my facebook groups because I ended up with a bunch of unsaved cult members who profess to be Christians when the groups didn't adhere to doctrines.

#64 Teejay

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 08:31 AM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1331175065' post='81342']
I am trying to understand what you are saying with this brain of mine not wanting to read and absorb so much. Would you say that anyone is under Peter's gospel today?
[/quote]

ME,

No one is under the gospel of circumcision or the law. Now confused Christians can mistakenly put themselves under Peter's gospel, but they are placing themselves out of the will of God and in a "dispensation" that is not in effect. God cut off Israel for unbelief. While believing Jews were saved individually, Israel as a nation was cut off and thus their program is on hold. When Jesus comes back (after the Tribulation), He will establish Israel's kingdom with Jesus Christ sitting on King David's throne and He will judge nations, put the goats on His left, etc.

I wrote that Ikester would be correct that we can lose our salvation IF their were no Pauliine letters that say just the opposite. Let's say that Ikester and I were arguing if there should be a death penalty. And Ikester quoted Gen. 4:15 where God forbids the death penalty for murders. If there were no other scriptures to the contrary, I would have to humbly admit that I'm wrong and Ikester is right. We should both agree with God and not each other.

But later in man's history, God changed His mind about the death penalty (Gen. 9:6). We have to obey the latest command from God and not the former. Make sense?

Allowing man to live governed only by his conscience had disasterous results. Right out of the chute, Lamech bragged to his wives that he had killed two men and if Cain got away with it, so can I. Eventually, men became so evil that God had to kill them all (except Noah and family) and start over.

From Cain to Noah, God allowed men to be governed only by their conscience--no law or punishment. Theologians call this the "dispensation of conscience." When Noah got off the Ark, God instituted the death penalty for murders (Gen. 9:6). Theologians call this the "dispensation of government or law." Until Paul, Israel was known as the "people of the circumcision" or law. Are there verses that show that only Paul received the "dispensation of grace"? Yes. In another post, I will list all the verses.

Why all these dispensations? God is not a government bureaucrat that keeps using programs that do not work. Paul quotes Ps. 51:4 in Romans 3: "That You may be justified in Your words, and may overcome when You are judged" Ps. 51:4). The first time I read that I was shocked. I asked myself, "Who will have the audacity to judge God?" The answer is unbelievers who have rejected Him. They will argue: "God, if only You had allowed us to live governed by our conscience." "God, if only you had not given us Your oppresive law." "God, if only You had not taken us out from under the law and given us that grace gospel.." But they will be without excuse.


TeeJay

#65 Remnant of The Abyss

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 08:54 AM

Your fix all answer to what you claim in God;'s word cannot be proven. And you won;t address things like:

The unforgiven sin and who can commit it. Because if the unsaved sinners are the only ones that this applies to (how osas must work) then sin becomes more powerful than what Christ did on the cross. And these people: http://www.blasphemychallenge.com/ And there's the video below.



You see your doctrine Gives Satan more power than what Christ did on the cross by given Satan a way to block salvation. So here is it broken down:

1) If you believe in osas which is where you ca never lose salvation, only unsaved sinners can commit the sin of blaspheming and therefore allows sin to block salvation showing that what Christ did on the cross cannot forgive all sins for the unsaved to be forgiven. And that the website above which is run by militant atheists are more power than any Christian even if God gives them all power in Heaven. Anytime Satan has more power in any instance Satan becomes god.

2) If you believe in no-osas which is where you can lose salvation. The unforgiven sin of blasphemy only applies to the saved. Therefore giving all power back to what Christ did on the cross and taking away the power of sin to block salvation to the unsaved.

So the question is: Is God all powerful and does what Christ did on the cross forgive all sin for the unsaved? Or does one sin block it all making Satan have more power than what Christ did on the cross and that website be right and all the men women and children who did this be damned for all eternity?

So in osas Satan has power to block salvation before it is given.
In no-osas he cannot because only the saved can do this.

The reasoning behind this as well is that the unsaved sinner is already damned. So when they commit this sin do they become double damned? That does not even make sense.

So Teejay, will you address this subject of blaspheming or will you come up with another fix all answer while ignoring the implications of what you preach? Look at that video and tell us that those people have the power with that sin to block salvation so that your osas belief can be true.



Hi, if you don't mind I'd like to jump in and comment on this please. First off let me state that I believe in OSAS.

To address the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit I've come to conclude that this is an unbeliever, one who is damned, who rejects God's free gift of salvation, right up until his/her last breath. This is the unforgivable sin, the *one* sin Christ did NOT die for on the cross. Why would part of Christ's sacrifice for the redemption of sin include the rejection of Himself? To me this doesn't make sense, and if it were true, then ALL would be saved, which I'm sure we can agree is false.

Looking at the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit from this viewpoint allows OSAS to make more sense, hopefully.

#66 Teejay

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 08:58 AM

[quote] name='ikester7579' timestamp='1331189410' post='81351']
The reason Teejay makes such assertions is because anyone, including those in the Bible, get categorized for disagreeing with osas. So even Teejay will make scripture look wrong and a gospel worthless to prove his doctrine. No-osas does not have to do that. So do you think Peter's gospel is wrong? Do you think preaching and implying that Peter;s gospel is worthless is the right thing to do in favor of a denominational belief? What do you think God is going to say about people who do this?
[/quote]

Ikester,

Only arbitrary, ungrounded "assertions" are wrong. I did not do that.

When did I "make scripture look wrong"?

What will God say about me? He has already said it in Paul's letters.

I will show you what is required of you if you place yourself under Peter and not Paul:

Circumcision is the cutting off of the flesh or foreskin. Why did God give this strange ritual? Circumcision is a synonym for the Law. Israel had to circumcise and keep the law, as the effort to keep the law is a “cutting off of the flesh.” Paul wrote, “For the flesh lusts against the Spirit [God], and the Spirit against the flesh…” (Gal. 5:17-19).

For Israel, the Law Was Not Optional

Jesus Christ was born a Jew under the Covenant of Circumcision, and He was circumcised strictly according to the Law on the eighth day after His birth (Luke 2:21). The thought just occurred to me that Jesus (God) made a contract with Abraham. Then He came and fulfilled Abraham’s obligation of the contract. Wouldn’t it be nice to make a contract with a car dealer and have the dealer pay for the car?

“And the uncircumcised male child, who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off [killed] from his people; he has broken My covenant.” Gen. 17:14

And it came to pass on the way, at the encampment, that the Lord met him [Moses] and sought to kill him. Then Zipporah took a sharp stone and cut off the foreskin of her son and cast it at Moses feet, and said, “Surely you are a husband of blood to me!” So He let him [Moses] go. Then she said, “You are a husband of blood!”—because of the circumcision…. Ex. 4:24-26

Moses learned firsthand how serious God was about circumcision. After working with Moses for eighty years, God sought to kill him because he failed to circumcise his son by his Midianite wife Zipporah. And his pagan Midianite wife did not take kindly to having to cut off the foreskin of her perfectly healthy son. But had she not, God would have killed Moses. Under Moses, Israel would learn also that failure to obey some of these commands meant a death penalty, even though some laws were symbolic and not moral nor immoral. The first man to violate the Sabbath law was executed (Num. 15:33-35).

Perpetual Laws for Israel

We have already seen that Abraham and all his descendants had to circumcise (Gen. 17:10). God said that circumcision is ”an everlasting covenant” (Gen. 17:9, 13). Now while the New Testament uses “circumcision… of the heart” (Rom. 2:29) as a metaphor, the Old Testament does so three times (Deut. 10:16; 30:6; Jer. 4:4). But such usage does not negate the requirement for Israel to obey God’s command to circumcise in either testament. God gave many commands to Israel as “perpetual statutes” which He withheld from the Body of Christ. While He made circumcision an “everlasting covenant” for Abraham and his descendants “throughout their generations” (Gen. 17:9, 13), He forbids circumcision for Christians today as a religious rite (Gal. 5:2-3; 3:10; Acts 15:24).

He also told Israel to observe the Day of Atonement forever: “It [the Day of Atonement] is a Sabbath of solemn rest for you…. It is a statute forever” (Lev. 16:31).

The Lord gave many symbolic commands including circumcision, the feasts, and the Sabbath to Israel as “everlasting statutes.” But none of these apply to us, today, in the Body of Christ. Note the Jewish purpose of the Sabbath:

”’Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath… throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever…’” Ex. 31:16-17.

But Paul writes, “Therefore let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths, which are a shadow [sign] of things to come, but the substances is of Christ” (Col. 2:16-17). And many mistakenly think that Israel was no longer under the law after the Cross. While this will be addressed in detail later, consider what Jesus warned about the Tribulation which is after the Cross: “And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath [after the Cross]” (Mat. 24:20).

Jesus Came to Israel with the Law

Moses did not come down from Mount Sinai with Grace. He came down with two stone tablets of Law. Jesus did not come to Israel (the people of the circumcision) with Grace. He was a Jew, born under the Law, circumcised on the eighth day (Luke 2:21). And, most importantly, He kept the Law perfectly and He taught Israel to keep the law to be saved.

Jesus taught Israel obedience to the law. Whatever law Moses commanded was to be heeded:

And [Jesus] answered and said to them, “What did Moses command you?” Mark 10:3

It mattered not whether moral or symbolic. God’s commandments were to be obeyed:

And Jesus said to him, “See that you tell no one; but go your way, show yourself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, as a testimony to them.” Mat. 8:4 from Lev. 14:1-32

Now one came and said to Him, “Good teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” So [Jesus] said to him, “…if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” He said to Him, “Which ones?” Jesus said, “You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ You shall not bear false witness,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’” Mat. 19:16-19 from Lev. 18:5

Moses’ law contained hundreds of commandments, some greater, and some lesser. Regardless, according to Jesus all must be taught and obeyed.

“…one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men to do so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great…” Mat. 5:18-19

Moses had to be obeyed even if espoused by hypocrites:

[Jesus said] “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do…” Mat. 23:2-3

Not one law, no matter how small, could be disobeyed:

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cmmin, and have neglected the weightier matters of he law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.” Mat. 23:23

TeeJay

#67 Teejay

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 09:43 AM

[quote] name='UppsalaDragby' timestamp='1331210516' post='81370']
So what gospel did Jesus and co preach? If it wasn't a gospel of grace then how could it be called a gospel?[/quote]

UD, until Jesus went to the Cross, no man entered heaven (John 3:13). There is no salvation by works ALONE. If salvation was possilbe through works alone, then Jesus would not have to die on the Cross.

So, if no one who died before the Cross went to heaven, then where did they go? The righteous went to Abraham's bosom (Luke 16:22); the unrighteous to hell to await the Great White Throne Judgment. The righteous saints in Abraham's bosom, although initially judged righteous for works and law keeping (Moses for example), still were required to accept Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross. When Jesus body lay in the tomb for three days, His Spirit was in Abraham's bosom witnessing to the saints there and "He led captives free. Now are any of those that were in Abraham's bosom in hell? I can't imagine anyone of them stupid enouugh to reject Jesus' salvation, but who knows? People are doing that right now by the millions.

What gospel did Jesus and His disciples preach? The gospel of circumcision: keep the law, do good works, and have faith in Jesus Christ as a sacrifice for them. The gospel that God gave to Paul was saved by faith plus nothing (Rom. 10:8-10). God can add grace to works (gospel of circumcision) but He will never add works to grace. Paul writes that grace is a free gift, and if you try to pay for a free gift, it's no longer a gift,


Paul makes this so clear:


“But on the contrary, when they [circumcision apostles at Jerusalem Council] saw that the gospel for [OF] the uncircumcised had been committed to me [Paul], as the gospel for [OF] the circumcised was to Peter (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the GRACE [GOSPEL] that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.” Gal. 2:7-9

Note: The KJV renders the passage in the most common manner, true to the usual function of the genitive case of these Greek nouns, “the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was to Peter.” The KJV translates these nouns as expected as genitives of description (describing the Gospel that was committed to each). Unexpectedly, the NKJV translates them as though they were indirect object genitives. Even if this unlikely translation were correct, WHICH IT IS NOT, the point remains: there is the Gospel for the Body and the Gospel for Israel, the former based on grace, the latter on circumcision [law].


[quote]I don't think I have heard anyone make that kind of a claim. I certainly don't, so I don't see what your point is. Anyone who receives Jesus as Lord and believes he was raised from the dead is no longer under the law, whether he is a Jew or a gentile.[/quote]

Every doctrinal dispute that Christians have today, whether it be OSAS or Sabbath keeping, or baptisms, or whatever, go away when we separate Israel from the Body, Law from grace, circumcision from uncircumcision. Under the gospel of circumcision, where law keeping and works were required, salvation could not possibly be certain; salvation was future and contingent.

Read my post 66. We, in the Body of Christ, saved under Paul's gospel of grace can joyously proclaim that we are no longer under the condemnation of the law. A Jew in Israel 2,000 years ago, under the gospel of circumcison had to keep the law. Many of Israel laws are perpetual, forever, everlasing, as long as there is a nation of Israel--Sabbath, circumcision, feasts, etc.



[quote]And how is that relevant to my post?[/quote]

If you don't think it's relevant, disregard. I just trying to show that there were two gospels. Surprisingly, Paul got most of his grief from believing Pharisees saved under the law. Paul would establish a grace church and leave town and the circumcision people would come in behind him and teach his converts that they had to get circumcised to be saved. And they were correct for their gospel of circumcision. But they did not realize, as many today, that God had changed the marching orders for Gentiles under Paul. Paul would go postal: "O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Having begun in the Spirit (no law) are you now made perfect by the flesh [law]?" Gal. 3:1-3.





[quote]Again, how is that relevant to my post? If anyone is in Christ, whether he be Jew or gentile, then he is no longer a Jew or a gentile, but a new creation.[/quote]

True. But a Jew in Israel before they got cut off, under the gospel of circumcision, even after the Cross, could not claim this.

TeeJay

#68 ikester7579

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 11:06 AM

Absolutely right. Which is why we need to reach the unsaved that attend church and correct their mistaken beliefs, thus snatching them from the fire.No it is because the saved don't need to hear about it.


That's reasoning using osas as your guide. How can the saved witness to the unsaved if they do not know about Hell. Because what if the unsaved ask and the saved cannot answer? Then they think Hell does not exist.

I don't appreciate this apparent judgment of my pastor and church.Not my pastor. That is why we love and trust him and why our church is small. Do you realize that my husband and I did not want church at all then we thought we would visit a lot of them to be safe... but now he doesn't care to go anywhere else... because the Spirit of God is there with those people. They understand deep spiritual things that other churches don't... and they display Christ's love.


Did I say your pastor your church? Nope. My church is just as guilty. And have you forgotten who told you to not leave that church and for what reason when you had doubts? When God deems you 2 have learned all you can there you will feel the pull of the Holy Spirit to move on. If God wants you to stay that feeling will never come. In matters such as this it is best to rely on the Holy Spirit guidance, Because if there is a plan in one church for you and you move that plan gets messed up.

That is good. There is also a danger. Doctrines are designed to protect against heresy. I don't have to accept all of my denominations doctrines, but I am glad to know that they are there. I had to write up doctrines for my facebook groups because I ended up with a bunch of unsaved cult members who profess to be Christians when the groups didn't adhere to doctrines.


There is not perfect denominational doctrine, even I have to admit that being non-denominational is not perfect but it gives me more of a chance to strive for that goal. The average denominational belief is right 80-90% of what they teach. Some higher some lower. This is because perfect truth in Christ and the word is not achievable. Knowing this we have to not always take the word of what's said at face vakue and treat it as absolute truth. Even the Bible says to test "all" doctrine with the word.

#69 ikester7579

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 11:17 AM

Hi, if you don't mind I'd like to jump in and comment on this please. First off let me state that I believe in OSAS.

To address the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit I've come to conclude that this is an unbeliever, one who is damned, who rejects God's free gift of salvation, right up until his/her last breath. This is the unforgivable sin, the *one* sin Christ did NOT die for on the cross. Why would part of Christ's sacrifice for the redemption of sin include the rejection of Himself? To me this doesn't make sense, and if it were true, then ALL would be saved, which I'm sure we can agree is false.

Looking at the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit from this viewpoint allows OSAS to make more sense, hopefully.


Question: Does not blocking salvation with one sin make sin stranger then what Christ did on the cross? Yes or no. Besides why does the sin of the unsaved even count when they are already sealed in their fate?

This is like a judge telling a man already condemned of one crime to the death penalty that he is going to have him revived so he can die twice. Because the unsaved are already damned why count his sins when he's getting the "only judgment" for them? Sin does not begin to count until we are saved and have the ability to ask forgiveness and repent. This is why we are born into sin because sin has already condemned us until we accept Christ. Being born already damned for Hell what sin could make that worse?

#70 ikester7579

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 11:20 AM

Ikester,

Only arbitrary, ungrounded "assertions" are wrong. I did not do that.

When did I "make scripture look wrong"?

What will God say about me? He has already said it in Paul's letters.

I will show you what is required of you if you place yourself under Peter and not Paul:

Circumcision is the cutting off of the flesh or foreskin. Why did God give this strange ritual? Circumcision is a synonym for the Law. Israel had to circumcise and keep the law, as the effort to keep the law is a “cutting off of the flesh.” Paul wrote, “For the flesh lusts against the Spirit [God], and the Spirit against the flesh…” (Gal. 5:17-19).

For Israel, the Law Was Not Optional

Jesus Christ was born a Jew under the Covenant of Circumcision, and He was circumcised strictly according to the Law on the eighth day after His birth (Luke 2:21). The thought just occurred to me that Jesus (God) made a contract with Abraham. Then He came and fulfilled Abraham’s obligation of the contract. Wouldn’t it be nice to make a contract with a car dealer and have the dealer pay for the car?

“And the uncircumcised male child, who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off [killed] from his people; he has broken My covenant.” Gen. 17:14

And it came to pass on the way, at the encampment, that the Lord met him [Moses] and sought to kill him. Then Zipporah took a sharp stone and cut off the foreskin of her son and cast it at Moses feet, and said, “Surely you are a husband of blood to me!” So He let him [Moses] go. Then she said, “You are a husband of blood!”—because of the circumcision…. Ex. 4:24-26

Moses learned firsthand how serious God was about circumcision. After working with Moses for eighty years, God sought to kill him because he failed to circumcise his son by his Midianite wife Zipporah. And his pagan Midianite wife did not take kindly to having to cut off the foreskin of her perfectly healthy son. But had she not, God would have killed Moses. Under Moses, Israel would learn also that failure to obey some of these commands meant a death penalty, even though some laws were symbolic and not moral nor immoral. The first man to violate the Sabbath law was executed (Num. 15:33-35).

Perpetual Laws for Israel

We have already seen that Abraham and all his descendants had to circumcise (Gen. 17:10). God said that circumcision is ”an everlasting covenant” (Gen. 17:9, 13). Now while the New Testament uses “circumcision… of the heart” (Rom. 2:29) as a metaphor, the Old Testament does so three times (Deut. 10:16; 30:6; Jer. 4:4). But such usage does not negate the requirement for Israel to obey God’s command to circumcise in either testament. God gave many commands to Israel as “perpetual statutes” which He withheld from the Body of Christ. While He made circumcision an “everlasting covenant” for Abraham and his descendants “throughout their generations” (Gen. 17:9, 13), He forbids circumcision for Christians today as a religious rite (Gal. 5:2-3; 3:10; Acts 15:24).

He also told Israel to observe the Day of Atonement forever: “It [the Day of Atonement] is a Sabbath of solemn rest for you…. It is a statute forever” (Lev. 16:31).

The Lord gave many symbolic commands including circumcision, the feasts, and the Sabbath to Israel as “everlasting statutes.” But none of these apply to us, today, in the Body of Christ. Note the Jewish purpose of the Sabbath:

”’Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath… throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever…’” Ex. 31:16-17.

But Paul writes, “Therefore let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths, which are a shadow [sign] of things to come, but the substances is of Christ” (Col. 2:16-17). And many mistakenly think that Israel was no longer under the law after the Cross. While this will be addressed in detail later, consider what Jesus warned about the Tribulation which is after the Cross: “And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath [after the Cross]” (Mat. 24:20).

Jesus Came to Israel with the Law

Moses did not come down from Mount Sinai with Grace. He came down with two stone tablets of Law. Jesus did not come to Israel (the people of the circumcision) with Grace. He was a Jew, born under the Law, circumcised on the eighth day (Luke 2:21). And, most importantly, He kept the Law perfectly and He taught Israel to keep the law to be saved.

Jesus taught Israel obedience to the law. Whatever law Moses commanded was to be heeded:

And [Jesus] answered and said to them, “What did Moses command you?” Mark 10:3

It mattered not whether moral or symbolic. God’s commandments were to be obeyed:

And Jesus said to him, “See that you tell no one; but go your way, show yourself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, as a testimony to them.” Mat. 8:4 from Lev. 14:1-32

Now one came and said to Him, “Good teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” So [Jesus] said to him, “…if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” He said to Him, “Which ones?” Jesus said, “You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ You shall not bear false witness,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’” Mat. 19:16-19 from Lev. 18:5

Moses’ law contained hundreds of commandments, some greater, and some lesser. Regardless, according to Jesus all must be taught and obeyed.

“…one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men to do so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great…” Mat. 5:18-19

Moses had to be obeyed even if espoused by hypocrites:

[Jesus said] “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do…” Mat. 23:2-3

Not one law, no matter how small, could be disobeyed:

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cmmin, and have neglected the weightier matters of he law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.” Mat. 23:23

TeeJay


Still dodging my posts I see. I'll just keep pointing that out until you start to address things. Also what's the deal with the small print? What are you copying from that does this? Is it a webpage or Microsoft word?

#71 Salsa

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 12:41 PM

What gospel did Jesus and His disciples preach? The gospel of circumcision: keep the law, do good works, and have faith in Jesus Christ as a sacrifice for them. The gospel that God gave to Paul was saved by faith plus nothing (Rom. 10:8-10). God can add grace to works (gospel of circumcision) but He will never add works to grace. Paul writes that grace is a free gift, and if you try to pay for a free gift, it's no longer a gift.


Teejay, this sounds a bit contradictory. It also sounds like a contrived argument made for the purpose of holding your doctrine together, because it doesn't make sense. If a gentile getting circumcised is adding to the gift, then so is a Jew getting circumcised adding to the gift.

Let me ask you, is the following verse true or not?

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

The fact that the Jews and gentiles were exposed to separate presentations of the gospel was common sense because they had completely different backgrounds.

To win a Jew required to become like a Jew.

To win someone under the law required becoming like one under the law.

With this in mind it was obviously more practical to have separate ministries dedicated to winning people of different backgrounds.

The end purpose was to win someone over to Christ so that they would become a new creation with a circumcised heart.

#72 Teejay

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 12:52 PM

[quote] name='ikester7579' timestamp='1331230673' post='81385']
Question: Does not blocking salvation with one sin make sin stranger then what Christ did on the cross? Yes or no. Besides why does the sin of the unsaved even count when they are already sealed in their fate?

This is like a judge telling a man already condemned of one crime to the death penalty that he is going to have him revived so he can die twice. Because the unsaved are already damned why count his sins when he's getting the "only judgment" for them? Sin does not begin to count until we are saved and have the ability to ask forgiveness and repent. This is why we are born into sin because sin has already condemned us until we accept Christ. Being born already damned for Hell what sin could make that worse?
[/quote]

Ikester,

Most of your posts to me are unsubstantiated accusations. I've answered every email you addressed to me?????????? If you want me to address anything, I will. You presented a laundry list of verses that support your position, and I wrote back that except for one Pauliine message (interpreted wrongly), all these verses were written under the law. Under the gospel of circumcision, if you salvation is future and contingent on whether you keep that law, then it logically flows that you can lose your salvation. But if you are saved by grace plus nothing, then OSAS makes sense. I submit that it is you, Ikester, who does not want to address my central argument.

You accuse me of on basing my posts on scripture--which was untrue. But here in this post, you wrote what sounded good to you with no scripture. And I can show that what you posted is ungrounded. Read on:

Now in answer to your questions on this post. Why count his sins? Because God does, and some will be "beaten with few stripes and some with many."




The Punishment Fits the Crime

God’s criminal justice system alone should tell us that all sins are not equal. Understand first that all sins are not crimes (coveting for example). But all crimes are sins. A study of God’s criminal justice system reveals that punishment is according to the seriousness of the crime. This shows that our God is a just and righteous God. The First Commandment is the most serious: “Thou shall have no other Gods before Me.” The punishment for this is eternal separation in Hell. God commanded the death penalty for serious crimes such as murder (Gen. 9:6; Ex. 21:12-14; 20:13; Lev. 24:17, 21; Num. 35:16-21; Deut. 19:11-13), kidnapping (Ex. 21:16; Deut. 24:7), rape of an engaged or married woman (Deut. 22:22-25), h*m*s*xuality (Lev. 18:22 & 29; 20:13), b*stiality (Ex. 22:19; Lev. 20:15-16), false witness in a capital crime(Deut. 19:16-21; Ex. 20:16), killing a baby in the womb (Ex. 21:21), death in the commission of a crime (Ex. 21:22-23), criminal negligence resulting in death (Ex. 21:28-30; Deut. 22:8), and incest (Lev. 20:11-21). It should be pointed out that there were several symbolic laws for which God demanded the death penalty. Some of these were breaking the Sabbath law, witchcraft, hitting your parents, false prophet, and blasphemy. These laws were for Israel only, were neither moral nor immoral, and are not for the Body of Christ today.

Punishment for theft is according to the value, recoverability, and replacement of the stolen property. If the stolen goods were recovered in good condition, then the thief had to make restitution to his victim of two times the value of the stolen property (Ex. 22:4, 7-9; 20:15). If the stolen goods had been sold and are unrecoverable, then four times the value was made to the victim (Ex. 22:1). Your grandfather’s WW 1 rifle which is sentimental required a restitution of five times the value (Ex. 22:1).

Minor crimes, such as public intoxication, were punished by flogging. It goes without saying that without Jesus Christ as our Savior, any sin, small or large, will send us to hell. But the punishment will fit the crime. Read on.

Who Had the Greater Sin?

Jesus, answering Pilate, said: “You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin” (John 19:11). Judas sat at Jesus’ feet for three years. Jesus said, “To shom much is given much is expected.” The High Priest of Israel will receive a much harsher punishment than the Jew not in authority. The High Priest sat in Moses’ seat. “Then they led Jesus from Caiaphas to the Praetorium and it was early morning. But they themselves did not go into the Praetorium, lest they should be defiled, but that they might eat the Passover” (John 18:28). While God will judge the whole world, He will hold Israel as a nation to a higher standard than He will the Romans for example. Much was given to Israel. God gave them His Law, prophesies, revelation of Himself. Although God has given the whole world general knowledge of Himself through His creation, Israel had received special revelation and knowledge of Him. And the high priest was tasked to reveal God to Israel. As the leader, he should have known that this was Israel’s Promised One. Instead, he was concerned about not defiling himself so he could celebrate Passover by killing a substitute Passover lamb. Ironically, the true Passover Lamb, Jesus Christ, was standing before him. How sad!

Better a Millstone Be Hung Around Your Neck

In Matthew 18:6, Jesus said, “But whoever causes one of these little ones [innocent children] who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Why does Jesus deem this sin so terrible? Because the effects are tragic. Sinning yourself is serious. But sinning yourself and getting someone else to sin who will then get another to sin is tragic beyond words. h*m*sexuals who introduce young boys into the homo life style will reap a greater condemnation. Their young victims will then possibly grow up to molest other young victims. Jesus scolded the scribes and Pharisees with, “For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves” (Mat. 23:15). Some will go to hell all by themselves. Others will take an army with them.

Woe to You Scribes and Pharisees

In Matthew 23:14, Jesus warned the scribes and Pharisees that they will receive the “greater condemnation.” He then calls them hypocrites, sons of hell, blind guides, blind, fools, law breakers, whitewashed tombs full of dead mens’ bones and uncleanness, sons of those who murdered the prophets, serpents, brood of vipers, murderers. And, after calling them all these names, he said, “…that on you may come all the righteous bloodshed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah. . .” (Mat. 23:35). Today, if Jesus made a “Woe to the Pharisees’ Sermon” He would be kicked out of most Christian churches for being too harsh.

Beaten With Few and Many Stripes

Jesus warned in Luke 12 that some will be beaten with few stripes and some with many stripes. “And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few… For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required. . .” (Luke 12:47-48). God does not hold all equally responsible. A military officer who has graduated from West Point is held to a higher standard than a boot camp trainee. A police officer trained to uphold the law should be held to a higher standard than the average citizen.

More Tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah on Judgment Day

Jesus warned whole cities that they would receive greater condemnation than the evil h*m*sexuals in Sodom and Gomorrah: “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. . . . But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you” (Mat. 11:21-24).

Mix Her a Double

In the Book of Revelation, we read of the punishment for Babylon: “For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her” (Rev. 18:5-6).

Teachers Are Held to a Higher Standard

James warns not to become a teacher lest you are aware that God will hold you to a higher standard. “My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment” (James 3:1). The effects of false or erroneous teaching can have serious, far reaching consequences. And, the more important a matter, the more serious the damage. A false teaching on baptism can hurt, but a false teaching like “there are many paths to God” or “God will save everyone,” can mean countless lost souls.

TV evangelist Hagee teaches falsely that the Jews can be saved separately from Jesus through Moses. But Paul teaches that in the Body of Christ, there is neither Jew nor Gentile, male nor female, slave nor free. The Jew today is saved by accepting Jesus Christ. “No man comes to the Father except through Me.”

And then there are the teachers that Paul mentions in Romans 1:18 that “who suppress the truth in unrighteousness.” For example, the science teacher who knowingly teaches false evolution, the news caster who suppresses the truth because of bias, Planned Parenthood employees who teach that the babies are not persons, Christian leaders who say we should accept and love h*m*sexuals will receive harsher condemnation. This teaching is 180 degrees opposite God’s command to put h*m*sexuals to death. Christians should tell h*m*sexuals the truth. Then they have reason to repent. Why should they repent when Christians tell them they are most wonderful?

And we are not born into sin. Before the Cross, all died in Adam. Jesus paid for Adam's sin. So now we are accountable for our own sins. Children are innocent and do not have the "knowledge of good and evil" (Deut. 1:39).
“I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment [law] came, sin revived and I died.” Rom. 7:9 When was Paul alive without the law? When he was too young to be under it and condemned by it.

In those days they shall say no more: “The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge.” But everyone shall die for his own iniquity; every man who eats [his own] sour grapes his teeth shall be set on edge. Jer. 31:29-30

“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.” 1 Cor. 15:22

When does the law pass away? The law passes away for each of us individually with we accept Jesus in accordance with Romans 10:8-10. When we make this confession of faith and believe in our hearts, the Holy Spirit baptizes us into the Body of Christ where we are "SEALED." We are taken out from under the condemnation of the law because Jesus nailed the law to the Cross. And where there is no law, there is no condemnation. I purposely omitted Bible references in this paragraph. Why? I'll let you look them up in Paul's letters since you don't believe anything I'm posting.

TeeJay

#73 Teejay

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 12:54 PM

Ikester, I type so slow that my computer goes off line. I am pasting from Word. I will get my wife to enlarge the print when she gets home?

TeeJay

#74 MamaElephant

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 01:44 PM

That's reasoning using osas as your guide. How can the saved witness to the unsaved if they do not know about Hell. Because what if the unsaved ask and the saved cannot answer? Then they think Hell does not exist.

I said that we don't hear about hell very often, not that we don't hear about it at all. Considering that we are not to control people with fear, I think less often is better.

Thanks for addressing the rest. I have said all I want to say.

#75 ikester7579

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 01:58 PM

Ikester, I type so slow that my computer goes off line. I am pasting from Word. I will get my wife to enlarge the print when she gets home?

TeeJay


To make the text go to normal size here you highlight all the text that is off size or all your text makes no difference, then you click the thing on the top left in the editor that looks like an eraser with a red tip. That erases any code that may have come with the text that you copy from word or a website. A soon as you click it the text goes to normal size.

I fixed your posts. Next one just highlight and click on that eraser looking thing with the red tip.

#76 ikester7579

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 02:07 PM

I said that we don't hear about hell very often, not that we don't hear about it at all. Considering that we are not to control people with fear, I think less often is better.

Thanks for addressing the rest. I have said all I want to say.


It's not controlling people with fear if you tell them what's going to happen if they don;t accept Christ.

Example: There was a man that was not very educated in theology. He wanted to be an evangelist and Hell fascinated him So he would listen to any sermon on it and read books about it. He soon got his chance to preach and what did he preached about? Hell. He got so good on the subject of Hell that any church that wanted a sermon on that he would get called. His ability to relay what Hell was and no one wants to go there was so strong and on point that by the time he died he had convinced over 1 million people to accept Christ.

Christ Himself talked about Hell more than Heaven. And if we are supposed to be like Him, there is a reason He did this as our example. And a reason the guy who did what Christ did brought over 1 million soul to Christ's salvation. If it was the wrong thing to do, do you think it would have been blessed that much when done?

#77 ikester7579

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 02:11 PM

Ikester,

Most of your posts to me are unsubstantiated accusations. I've answered every email you addressed to me?????????? If you want me to address anything, I will. You presented a laundry list of verses that support your position, and I wrote back that except for one Pauliine message (interpreted wrongly), all these verses were written under the law. Under the gospel of circumcision, if you salvation is future and contingent on whether you keep that law, then it logically flows that you can lose your salvation. But if you are saved by grace plus nothing, then OSAS makes sense. I submit that it is you, Ikester, who does not want to address my central argument.

You accuse me of on basing my posts on scripture--which was untrue. But here in this post, you wrote what sounded good to you with no scripture. And I can show that what you posted is ungrounded. Read on:

Now in answer to your questions on this post. Why count his sins? Because God does, and some will be "beaten with few stripes and some with many."




The Punishment Fits the Crime

God’s criminal justice system alone should tell us that all sins are not equal. Understand first that all sins are not crimes (coveting for example). But all crimes are sins. A study of God’s criminal justice system reveals that punishment is according to the seriousness of the crime. This shows that our God is a just and righteous God. The First Commandment is the most serious: “Thou shall have no other Gods before Me.” The punishment for this is eternal separation in Hell. God commanded the death penalty for serious crimes such as murder (Gen. 9:6; Ex. 21:12-14; 20:13; Lev. 24:17, 21; Num. 35:16-21; Deut. 19:11-13), kidnapping (Ex. 21:16; Deut. 24:7), rape of an engaged or married woman (Deut. 22:22-25), h*m*s*xuality (Lev. 18:22 & 29; 20:13), b*stiality (Ex. 22:19; Lev. 20:15-16), false witness in a capital crime(Deut. 19:16-21; Ex. 20:16), killing a baby in the womb (Ex. 21:21), death in the commission of a crime (Ex. 21:22-23), criminal negligence resulting in death (Ex. 21:28-30; Deut. 22:8), and incest (Lev. 20:11-21). It should be pointed out that there were several symbolic laws for which God demanded the death penalty. Some of these were breaking the Sabbath law, witchcraft, hitting your parents, false prophet, and blasphemy. These laws were for Israel only, were neither moral nor immoral, and are not for the Body of Christ today.

Punishment for theft is according to the value, recoverability, and replacement of the stolen property. If the stolen goods were recovered in good condition, then the thief had to make restitution to his victim of two times the value of the stolen property (Ex. 22:4, 7-9; 20:15). If the stolen goods had been sold and are unrecoverable, then four times the value was made to the victim (Ex. 22:1). Your grandfather’s WW 1 rifle which is sentimental required a restitution of five times the value (Ex. 22:1).

Minor crimes, such as public intoxication, were punished by flogging. It goes without saying that without Jesus Christ as our Savior, any sin, small or large, will send us to hell. But the punishment will fit the crime. Read on.

Who Had the Greater Sin?

Jesus, answering Pilate, said: “You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin” (John 19:11). Judas sat at Jesus’ feet for three years. Jesus said, “To shom much is given much is expected.” The High Priest of Israel will receive a much harsher punishment than the Jew not in authority. The High Priest sat in Moses’ seat. “Then they led Jesus from Caiaphas to the Praetorium and it was early morning. But they themselves did not go into the Praetorium, lest they should be defiled, but that they might eat the Passover” (John 18:28). While God will judge the whole world, He will hold Israel as a nation to a higher standard than He will the Romans for example. Much was given to Israel. God gave them His Law, prophesies, revelation of Himself. Although God has given the whole world general knowledge of Himself through His creation, Israel had received special revelation and knowledge of Him. And the high priest was tasked to reveal God to Israel. As the leader, he should have known that this was Israel’s Promised One. Instead, he was concerned about not defiling himself so he could celebrate Passover by killing a substitute Passover lamb. Ironically, the true Passover Lamb, Jesus Christ, was standing before him. How sad!

Better a Millstone Be Hung Around Your Neck

In Matthew 18:6, Jesus said, “But whoever causes one of these little ones [innocent children] who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Why does Jesus deem this sin so terrible? Because the effects are tragic. Sinning yourself is serious. But sinning yourself and getting someone else to sin who will then get another to sin is tragic beyond words. h*m*sexuals who introduce young boys into the homo life style will reap a greater condemnation. Their young victims will then possibly grow up to molest other young victims. Jesus scolded the scribes and Pharisees with, “For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves” (Mat. 23:15). Some will go to hell all by themselves. Others will take an army with them.

Woe to You Scribes and Pharisees

In Matthew 23:14, Jesus warned the scribes and Pharisees that they will receive the “greater condemnation.” He then calls them hypocrites, sons of hell, blind guides, blind, fools, law breakers, whitewashed tombs full of dead mens’ bones and uncleanness, sons of those who murdered the prophets, serpents, brood of vipers, murderers. And, after calling them all these names, he said, “…that on you may come all the righteous bloodshed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah. . .” (Mat. 23:35). Today, if Jesus made a “Woe to the Pharisees’ Sermon” He would be kicked out of most Christian churches for being too harsh.

Beaten With Few and Many Stripes

Jesus warned in Luke 12 that some will be beaten with few stripes and some with many stripes. “And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few… For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required. . .” (Luke 12:47-48). God does not hold all equally responsible. A military officer who has graduated from West Point is held to a higher standard than a boot camp trainee. A police officer trained to uphold the law should be held to a higher standard than the average citizen.

More Tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah on Judgment Day

Jesus warned whole cities that they would receive greater condemnation than the evil h*m*sexuals in Sodom and Gomorrah: “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. . . . But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you” (Mat. 11:21-24).

Mix Her a Double

In the Book of Revelation, we read of the punishment for Babylon: “For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her” (Rev. 18:5-6).

Teachers Are Held to a Higher Standard

James warns not to become a teacher lest you are aware that God will hold you to a higher standard. “My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment” (James 3:1). The effects of false or erroneous teaching can have serious, far reaching consequences. And, the more important a matter, the more serious the damage. A false teaching on baptism can hurt, but a false teaching like “there are many paths to God” or “God will save everyone,” can mean countless lost souls.

TV evangelist Hagee teaches falsely that the Jews can be saved separately from Jesus through Moses. But Paul teaches that in the Body of Christ, there is neither Jew nor Gentile, male nor female, slave nor free. The Jew today is saved by accepting Jesus Christ. “No man comes to the Father except through Me.”

And then there are the teachers that Paul mentions in Romans 1:18 that “who suppress the truth in unrighteousness.” For example, the science teacher who knowingly teaches false evolution, the news caster who suppresses the truth because of bias, Planned Parenthood employees who teach that the babies are not persons, Christian leaders who say we should accept and love h*m*sexuals will receive harsher condemnation. This teaching is 180 degrees opposite God’s command to put h*m*sexuals to death. Christians should tell h*m*sexuals the truth. Then they have reason to repent. Why should they repent when Christians tell them they are most wonderful?

And we are not born into sin. Before the Cross, all died in Adam. Jesus paid for Adam's sin. So now we are accountable for our own sins. Children are innocent and do not have the "knowledge of good and evil" (Deut. 1:39).
“I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment [law] came, sin revived and I died.” Rom. 7:9 When was Paul alive without the law? When he was too young to be under it and condemned by it.

In those days they shall say no more: “The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge.” But everyone shall die for his own iniquity; every man who eats [his own] sour grapes his teeth shall be set on edge. Jer. 31:29-30

“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.” 1 Cor. 15:22

When does the law pass away? The law passes away for each of us individually with we accept Jesus in accordance with Romans 10:8-10. When we make this confession of faith and believe in our hearts, the Holy Spirit baptizes us into the Body of Christ where we are "SEALED." We are taken out from under the condemnation of the law because Jesus nailed the law to the Cross. And where there is no law, there is no condemnation. I purposely omitted Bible references in this paragraph. Why? I'll let you look them up in Paul's letters since you don't believe anything I'm posting.

TeeJay




When you address the things like blasphemy then you can claim such things. But you won't because you cannot without having to face that you might be wrong. Keep up the good work you only prove my point by avoiding things then blaming it all on me.

#78 Teejay

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 04:20 PM

[quote] name='UppsalaDragby' timestamp='1331235684' post='81387']
Teejay, this sounds a bit contradictory. It also sounds like a contrived argument made for the purpose of holding your doctrine together, because it doesn't make sense. If a gentile getting circumcised is adding to the gift, then so is a Jew getting circumcised adding to the gift.[/quote]

UD, If my argument is "contrived," then show me how it is. This is an ungrounded assertion. I showed you with Scripture that Sabbath law was for Israel only and was perpetual, everlasting, forever.


Perpetuity

Therefore the children Israel shall keep the Sabbath of, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. Ex. 31:16

The word perpetual unambiguously and accurately translates from the Hebrew ‘olam. Reinforcing this, the texts states that God’s people shall observe the Sabbath “throughout their generations.”

The Sabbath “is a sign. . . forever:”

Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath. . . throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever. . . . Ex. 31:16-17

Perpetually forever. God gives no indication of repeal for the Sabbath any time in the future. A passage regarding the bread of the tabernacle reveals the same truth:

“Every Sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant. . . by a perpetual statute.” Lev. 24:8-9

Those of Solomon’s time remembered this truth of the perpetual Sabbath. In a letter to “Hiram king of Tyre” (2 Chr. 2:3), Solomon asked for cedars to build a temple to offer sacrifice:

“. . .on the Sabbaths, on the New Moons, and on the set feasts of the LORD our God. This is an ordinance forever to Israel. 2 Chr. 2:4

Failure to observe the Sabbath was not optional. A Jew violating the Sabbath would be put to death (Gen. 17:4).

Will you admit this simple truth that the Sabbath was for Israel and is perpetual?

Paul said to forget about the Sabbath (Col. 2:16).


[quote]Let me ask you, is the following verse true or not?

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.[/quote]


After working with Moses for 80 years, God sought to kill Moses because he failed to circumcise his son by his Midionite wife Zapporah (Ex. 4:24-26

Of course it's true, but it's true for members of the Body of Christ saved under Paul's dispensation of grace. It's not true for Israel.


We have already seen that Abraham and all his descendants had to circumcise (Gen. 17:10). God said that circumcision is ”an everlasting covenant” (Gen. 17:9, 13). Now while the New Testament uses “circumcision… of the heart” (Rom. 2:29) as a metaphor, the Old Testament does so three times (Deut. 10:16; 30:6; Jer. 4:4). But such usage does not negate the requirement for Israel to obey God’s command to circumcise in either testament. God gave many commands to Israel as “perpetual statutes” which He withheld from the Body of Christ. While He made circumcision an “everlasting covenant” for Abraham and his descendants “throughout their generations” (Gen. 17:9, 13), He forbids circumcision for Christians today as a religious rite (Gal. 5:2-3; 3:10; Acts 15:24).


[quote]The fact that the Jews and gentiles were exposed to separate presentations of the gospel was common sense because they had completely different backgrounds.[/quote]

In light of what I posted above, what you post here is personal opinion

[quote]To win a Jew required to become like a Jew.

To win someone under the law required becoming like one under the law.

With this in mind it was obviously more practical to have separate ministries dedicated to winning people of different backgrounds.

The end purpose was to win someone over to Christ so that they would become a new creation with a circumcised heart.
[/quote]

Paul wrote, "Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised" (1 Cor. 7:18). Paul is not talking here about reverse surgery. If you were saved under Peter's gospel of circumcision or law, you had to stay under that dispensation. Likewise, members of the Body of Christ, saved under the dispensation of grace, should not put themselves under the law. The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable (Rom. 11:29).

UD, I don't know how to present grounds for my argument, except with Scripture. I provided the Scripture. Now if you deny what the above verses plainly say, then there is no further need to dialogue.

If you're not convinced that Israel's laws were perpetual, I can show you that Israel will be observing them in the New Heaven and the New Earth. I will present this to you if you like but will it do any good?

TeeJay

#79 Remnant of The Abyss

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 04:46 PM

Question: Does not blocking salvation with one sin make sin stranger then what Christ did on the cross? Yes or no. Besides why does the sin of the unsaved even count when they are already sealed in their fate?


I see nothing strange about it. If one does not accept Christ as Lord and Savior they are condemned to hell, correct? You asked about the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit, correct? I gave an explanation as to what I believe this is, and I don't see this as strange at all.

As for why the sin of the unsaved even count, well this is the ONE way they may be pardoned for their sins, by accepting Christ as Lord and Savior, correct? Thus this ONE sin of NOT accepting God's free gift of salvation is in fact the unpardonable sin, the blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, the ONE sin that God cannot overlook since God the Father sent His one and only son as a perfect sacrifice for all those who would accept Him.

This is like a judge telling a man already condemned of one crime to the death penalty that he is going to have him revived so he can die twice. Because the unsaved are already damned why count his sins when he's getting the "only judgment" for them? Sin does not begin to count until we are saved and have the ability to ask forgiveness and repent. This is why we are born into sin because sin has already condemned us until we accept Christ. Being born already damned for Hell what sin could make that worse?


I am discussing the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit. All sins are EQUAL, correct. But the blaspheme of the Holy Spirit as I've come to understand it is the ONE sin that is not pardoned. Christ did not die on the cross to pardon those who reject Him; this is why the rejection of Christ is the unforgivable sin, even though all sins are equal.

#80 Teejay

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 04:48 PM

[quote] name='ikester7579' timestamp='1331241117' post='81393']
When you address the things like blasphemy then you can claim such things. But you won't because you cannot without having to face that you might be wrong. Keep up the good work you only prove my point by avoiding things then blaming it all on me.
[/quote]

Ikester,

I've been doing my best to answer you, ME, UD. No one has yet addressed a post to me on the subject of blasphemy. I will if you like.

The best explanation of this inigma was presented by Les Feldick, a Oklahoma rancher and Bible teacher on TV. And it makes sense to me. When Jesus warned the Jews that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was the unforgiveable sin, we must interpret this through other Scripture and even through the nature of God. You can search the Pauline letters, and you can't find this as the unforgiveable sin. In fact Paul writes that ALL your sins are forgiven.

So, what was Jesus talking about? Jesus was warning Israel that when they reject the Son "whom He has sent," you automatically reject the Father also. There is one person of the Trinity that is left to reject. Did the Holy Spirit witness to Isarel? Yes! Jesus promised the Jews that He would give them "irrestible wisdom" when it came time to speak. When Stephen gave his great oration to Israel's leaders, it was not Stephen speaking; it was the Holy Spirit. All who looked at Stephen thought they saw the face of an angel (Acts 6:15).

Stephen was "full of the Holy Ghost (Acts 7:55). And notice that Acts 7:56, Stephen sees Jesus STANDING at the right hand of God and not SITTING. Jesus' standing meant judgment. And the Jews knew this and that's what angered them the most. The Jews rejection of the Holy Spirit's oration through Stephen was the unforgiveable sin, for Israel had now rejected the entirety of the God-Head, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Recall the parable of the fig tree where Jesus said that He had come looking for fruit on this tree for three years and had found none. The fig tree was Israel. Jesus was ready to cut it down or cut Israel off. But the keeper of the garden (the Holy Spirit) persuaded Jesus to let Him work with Israel for another year. The result: They stopped up their ears, and ran at Stephen (the Holy Spirit) with one accord and they cast Him out of the city and stoned Him.

In the twelve signs of the tribulation, Jesus promised "irrestible wisdom" (Luke 21:15 that their enemies could not resist. This was fulfilled in Acts in the Holy Spirit's oration through Stephen.

Israel had rejected Jesus when He walked among them. This meant that they had rejected the Father too. Then they rejected their risen Messiah and the Holy Spirit.

TeeJay
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