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The Osas Debate.


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#81 ikester7579

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 05:50 PM

I see nothing strange about it. If one does not accept Christ as Lord and Savior they are condemned to hell, correct? You asked about the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit, correct? I gave an explanation as to what I believe this is, and I don't see this as strange at all.


LOL, I meant stronger not stranger. Sorry about that.

As for why the sin of the unsaved even count, well this is the ONE way they may be pardoned for their sins, by accepting Christ as Lord and Savior, correct? Thus this ONE sin of NOT accepting God's free gift of salvation is in fact the unpardonable sin, the blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, the ONE sin that God cannot overlook since God the Father sent His one and only son as a perfect sacrifice for all those who would accept Him.


So there is more than one unforgiven sin?

I am discussing the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit. All sins are EQUAL, correct. But the blaspheme of the Holy Spirit as I've come to understand it is the ONE sin that is not pardoned. Christ did not die on the cross to pardon those who reject Him; this is why the rejection of Christ is the unforgivable sin, even though all sins are equal.


So what you are saying is that those who are unsaved and do what's in that video I posted earlier are condemned to eternal torment regardless? So what you mean is that is an unsaved adult or a child comes to you and says: I made a mistake, I did the blasphemy challenge am I damned for Hell for all eternity? What would be your answer?

1) If you answer that they are damned and nothing can be done about it then you basically just showed that sin is more powerful than salvation as they cannot be saved. So Satan has a way to block salvation before it is given.
2) If you say no then you are saying that only the saved can do this and salvation does forgive all sin for the "unsaved" and sin cannot block salvation for the unsaved.

#82 MamaElephant

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 09:33 PM

It's not controlling people with fear if you tell them what's going to happen if they don;t accept Christ.

When one is preaching to the saved then what is the point then? If one does not believe in OSAS then they are using fear as a motivator when they shouldn't. Just my opinion.

#83 Remnant of The Abyss

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 09:47 PM

LOL, I meant stronger not stranger. Sorry about that.



So there is more than one unforgiven sin?


No. There is just one unforgivable sin. Blaspheming of the Holy Spirit by rejecting Jesus Christ as the Lord and Savior. The Spirit testifies to the truth about Christ, and the Holy Spirit dwells upon the earth (as the wind) in order to do so. People are not without knowledge of God the Father nor without the truth of Christ. To reject this truth is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. It appears that Teejay is saying the same thing...

Ikester,

Israel had rejected Jesus when He walked among them. This meant that they had rejected the Father too. Then they rejected their risen Messiah and the Holy Spirit.

TeeJay




So what you are saying is that those who are unsaved and do what's in that video I posted earlier are condemned to eternal torment regardless? So what you mean is that is an unsaved adult or a child comes to you and says: I made a mistake, I did the blasphemy challenge am I damned for Hell for all eternity? What would be your answer?


My answer would be, that is not blaspheming the Holy Spirit. That is SIN, but even THAT sin can be forgiven by God. The only unforgivable sin would be to never repent from this sin, then die still holding onto to the rejection of Christ. That would be my answer.


1) If you answer that they are damned and nothing can be done about it then you basically just showed that sin is more powerful than salvation as they cannot be saved. So Satan has a way to block salvation before it is given.
2) If you say no then you are saying that only the saved can do this and salvation does forgive all sin for the "unsaved" and sin cannot block salvation for the unsaved.


Why are you trying to "box in" my answer when you still don't understand what I am trying to explain to you? I don't agree with #1 nor #2. Why? Because I just explained to you that an unsaved person cannot commit the blaspheming of the Holy Spirt unless that person DIES without repentance and acceptance of Christ as Lord and Savior.

#84 ikester7579

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 10:28 PM

When one is preaching to the saved then what is the point then? If one does not believe in OSAS then they are using fear as a motivator when they shouldn't. Just my opinion.


Fear is a motivator. So as long as it's being used for that only then I see no problem. I know that you don't like it because that is what the JWs did to you guys. But there is a wrong and a right way to do it. How about the guy who preached about Hell every sermon and making to where the good news of the gospel gets to bring in 1 million souls? Was he wrong?

Wrong way: When through fear you are controlled to do things against your will. That's actually a form of witchcraft.

So not only were the JWs controlling you with fear but they were using a form of witchcraft to do it.

#85 ikester7579

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 11:13 PM

No. There is just one unforgivable sin. Blaspheming of the Holy Spirit by rejecting Jesus Christ as the Lord and Savior.


Actually there are three unforgiven sins:

1) Blaspheming the Holy "Ghost".
mt 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
mt 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
mk 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
lk 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.
This is another example of why I adhere to the KJV only. Newer versions omit the Holy Ghost and claim it's the same as the Holy Spirit. Which is wrong. The Holy Spirit is a representation of Father God and the old covenant. The Holy ghost is a representation of Jesus Christ and the new covenant. This is why the KJV says that the Holy Ghost came down to Jesus in the form of a Dove. And when Christ died he gave up the ghost not the spirit.

2) Getting all the gifts and power from Heaven that God has to give then turning your back on it.
Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.:

What this means is that this sin here is so bad that the Son of God would have to get back on the cross (crucify afresh) in order to forgive them. And that's not going to happen.

3) Changing the prophecy of the Bible:
rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Being in the book of life means you were saved. Being taken out means you just lost your salvation.

The Spirit testifies to the truth about Christ, and the Holy Spirit dwells upon the earth (as the wind) in order to do so. People are not without knowledge of God the Father nor without the truth of Christ. To reject this truth is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. It appears that Teejay is saying the same thing...


Sounds like you think everyone has heard of Christ so therefore there is no excuse. That's not the case. There are people in this country (US) that have never heard of Christ.

My answer would be, that is not blaspheming the Holy Spirit. That is SIN, but even THAT sin can be forgiven by God. The only unforgivable sin would be to never repent from this sin, then die still holding onto to the rejection of Christ. That would be my answer.


But if they had done it right what would be your answer?.... Sorry no one can help you not even Christ?

Why are you trying to "box in" my answer when you still don't understand what I am trying to explain to you? I don't agree with #1 nor #2. Why? Because I just explained to you that an unsaved person cannot commit the blaspheming of the Holy Spirt unless that person DIES without repentance and acceptance of Christ as Lord and Savior.


You are twisting what osas is all about. I used to be one so I know what they believe. Only the unsaved can commit the unforgivable sins and it count. The saved can also but because they cannot lose salvation it does not matter. That's what osas believe because that's how it has to work for osas to be true. Absolutely nothing can make the saved lose their salvation. That's the osas belief.

But let's take this a little deeper, shall we? Is suicide forgivable? I had a friend who was suicidal and because he believed that he could not go to Hell if he killed himself he'd do it. To end his mental pain and depression. So he went into his garage and started up his lawn mower and allowed himself to die of the fumes from that. Now can you absolutely say for sure my friend ended up in Heaven? Because if you think killing yourself will get you there faster then you'd be wrong. Because with today's society and the push of youthanasia Osas preachers could just preach that killing yourself gets you to God quicker if you can no longer stand being alive and you are saved. Because if osas is correct then this is also.

Now you might say that he was not truly saved if he did that. Which is the osas cop out for everything that done that makes osas look bad. But know this. There is not one verse in God's word that states or implies that when you get saved that there are some sins you can no longer commit. And to make that statement true about being truly saved you would have to provide verses and the actual sins that determine this. Neither can be done. So judging if someone is truly saved by a sin they may have committed is not Biblical.

#86 Salsa

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 03:22 AM

UD, If my argument is "contrived," then show me how it is. This is an ungrounded assertion. I showed you with Scripture that Sabbath law was for Israel only and was perpetual, everlasting, forever.


It sounds contrived for the reason I gave. it doesn't make sense given the verses involved. If the Jews that become Christian have to keep the law in order to be saved then where does grace enter the picture? They would have been just as bad off as they were before because no one can obey the entire law.

I showed you with Scripture that Sabbath law was for Israel only and was perpetual, everlasting, forever.


Sure. And I showed you with scripture that when anyone is in Christ then he is a new creation - the old is gone. Those who do not receive Christ will need to keep the old laws - forever! The only escape from that is by being born again.

Will you admit this simple truth that the Sabbath was for Israel and is perpetual?


Yes, I will. Have never denied it.

Of course it's true, but it's true for members of the Body of Christ saved under Paul's dispensation of grace. It's not true for Israel.


This is not what the verse says. It says those who are "in Christ". That would include the Jewish believers:

"We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first." (Heb 3:14)

Paul wrote, "Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised" (1 Cor. 7:18). Paul is not talking here about reverse surgery. If you were saved under Peter's gospel of circumcision or law, you had to stay under that dispensation. Likewise, members of the Body of Christ, saved under the dispensation of grace, should not put themselves under the law. The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable (Rom. 11:29).


Of course he wrote that, because his point was that once someone is in Christ then neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value.

If you're not convinced that Israel's laws were perpetual, I can show you that Israel will be observing them in the New Heaven and the New Earth. I will present this to you if you like but will it do any good?


It would, if you could demonstrate that what happens in the New Heaven and the New Earth are the "shadows" written in the OT, rather than the realities in Chist. Even we are partakers of the realities in Christ. We have all entered the sabbath rest, just as we have all been circumcised.

#87 MamaElephant

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 05:56 AM

Fear is a motivator. So as long as it's being used for that only then I see no problem. I know that you don't like it because that is what the JWs did to you guys. But there is a wrong and a right way to do it. How about the guy who preached about Hell every sermon and making to where the good news of the gospel gets to bring in 1 million souls? Was he wrong?

I don't know whether he was wrong or not. It depends on more details. I do know that JWs have over 7 million people worldwide in over 200 languages who are a brotherhood and agree on all of their doctrine. They also avoid pagan holidays and don't have multiple wives, etc. I used to think that these things meant that they were God's people.

#88 MamaElephant

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 06:08 AM

I shall forevermore believe the words of my Lord above any other. What did Jesus say was required in order to receive eternal life?

John 7:37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.”

John 4:10 Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”
13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

The gospel of grace. Thank you Lord.

#89 Remnant of The Abyss

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 08:51 AM

Actually there are three unforgiven sins:


Three different sins or three different ways to commit the SAME sin??

If a person is insulted, can this person get insulted just by one means? No. There are many ways a person can get insulted yet it is still the same thing. I believe blaspheming of the Holy Ghost, the rejection of Christ, can be done in various ways yet they are all the same result.

Sounds like you think everyone has heard of Christ so therefore there is no excuse. That's not the case. There are people in this country (US) that have never heard of Christ.


Bunny trail. I just threw that out there as an example. It's not germane to debate it.

But if they had done it right what would be your answer?.... Sorry no one can help you not even Christ?


THIS is the point you are not either understanding or acknowledging. I have stated numerous times that EVERY SIN is forgiven except the rejection of Christ right up until one's dying breath (the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit as I've come to understand it). Why do you keep missing this point? You've missed it again here.

Let me make this very clear. I am going to state this one last time. I see no reason to continue this conversation if this point is not acknowledged. I'll address your question again, yet I will not answer it as it is the WRONG QUESTION to be asking in my opinion.

But if they had done it right what would be your answer?.... Sorry no one can help you not even Christ?


They CAN'T have "done it right". I told you before that this too is the wrong question to be asking. They can REPENT of this sin of the tongue against the Holy Spirit prior to taking their last breath, repeat: PRIOR TO THEIR LAST BREATH, when they repent of all their sins and ask forgiveness from God and accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior into their hearts. Just swearing against God the Father, the Son, or the Holy Ghost is not blaspeming of the Holy Ghost as I've come to understand it.

Please try to understand what I am saying. What I am saying is not bizarre, it's not heresy, and it's certainly not that confusing. Thank you.

#90 MamaElephant

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 09:28 AM

1 Corinthians 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

And yeah, you caught me. I chose the KJV over the NASB, they seem to say different things. hmmm

#91 Teejay

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 10:19 AM

[quote] name='UppsalaDragby' timestamp='1331288538' post='81411']
It sounds contrived for the reason I gave. it doesn't make sense given the verses involved. If the Jews that become Christian have to keep the law in order to be saved then where does grace enter the picture? They would have been just as bad off as they were before because no one can obey the entire law.[/quote]

UD, I will try one more time. My dictionary defines "contrive" as a "plot, scheme, plan to do evil." Why would I do that? Now some facts that I want you to disppute:

1. A grace gospel, saved by faith plus nothing, can't be found in any circumcision writings.

2. Other than the gentile Cornelius, there is no Biblical record of any circumcision apostle witnessing to one Gentile.

3. Establishment of the Body of Christ with a grace gospel was a "mystery," "kept secret," "never before revealed."

4. The circumcision apostles were keeping the law after the Cross.

5. Jesus never told one Jew, under the gospel of circumcision, that law keeping and works were not required.

I purposely left off Scripture references. I will let you look this up yourself since you think I'm a contriver.





[quote]Sure. And I showed you with scripture that when anyone is in Christ then he is a new creation - the old is gone. Those who do not receive Christ will need to keep the old laws - forever! The only escape from that is by being born again.[/quote]

That a Pauline message and it is written to Jews, Gentiles, et.al. under the gospel of uncircumcision or grace. No Jew that sat at the feet of Jesus could make such a presumptuous statement. "Any tree that does not produce fruit is cast into the fire."



[quote]Yes, I will. Have never denied it.[/quote]

Okay! Will you then admit that members of the Body of Christ do not have to keep the Sabbath? See Rom. 14:5-6; Col. 2:16-17; Gal 2:18-19, 3:10, & Gal. 4:10-11). And should it not dawn on you that perhaps there is a difference between Israel and the Body?



[quote]This is not what the verse says. It says those who are "in Christ". That would include the Jewish believers:

"We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first." (Heb 3:14)[/quote]

A Jew can be saved under Paul's gospel of grace today. But he can't be saved under the dispensation of circumcision because that dispensation is no longer in effect.

Will you admit that God cut off Israel for unbelief?

[quote]Of course he wrote that, because his point was that once someone is in Christ then neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value.[/quote]

Paul wrote, "Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised" (1 Cor. 7:18). Paul is not talking here about reverse surgery. If you were saved under Peter's gospel of circumcision or law, you had to stay under that dispensation. Likewise, members of the Body of Christ, saved under the dispensation of grace, should not put themselves under the law. The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable (Rom. 11:29).

And somehow, you take this to mean that circumcision has no value?????????????????????????????????? How in the world did you get that interpretation? And you accuse me of being a contriver. Yikes!

Will you admit a second simple truth that circumcision was for the Jews and was a perpetual command?


[quote]It would, if you could demonstrate that what happens in the New Heaven and the New Earth are the "shadows" written in the OT, rather than the realities in Chist. Even we are partakers of the realities in Christ. We have all entered the sabbath rest, just as we have all been circumcised.
[/quote]

But you already admitted above that the Sabbath law was perpetual for Israel? So now you're saying that in the future it would just be a shadow?

I'm not sure there is any scripture or argment that will convince you.


TeeJay

#92 Teejay

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 10:47 AM

[quote] name='ikester7579' timestamp='1331270934' post='81405']
Fear is a motivator. So as long as it's being used for that only then I see no problem. I know that you don't like it because that is what the JWs did to you guys. But there is a wrong and a right way to do it. How about the guy who preached about Hell every sermon and making to where the good news of the gospel gets to bring in 1 million souls? Was he wrong?

Wrong way: When through fear you are controlled to do things against your will. That's actually a form of witchcraft.

So not only were the JWs controlling you with fear but they were using a form of witchcraft to do it.
[/quote]

Ikester,

I will continue to show that there are two gospels. Unless we admit that Israel was under the dispensation of law and the Body of Christ is under the dispensation of grace, we stay confused. Mixing these two together can't be done.

Jesus preached on Hell more than anyone else or anywhere else in the Bible. And He did it as a warning TO THE JEWS. Murder, adultery, kidnapping, h*m*s*xuality, stealing was wrong before the Mosaic law was given. To get proof of this just ask Abimelech, Chedorlaomer, the Sodimites and Rachel. These sins are still immoral today and even grace apostle to the Gentiles Paul commands Christians to abstain from such behavior.

But there is a huge difference between Paul saying do not steal and the law saying do not steal. The difference is that the law comes with an inescapable curse (Gal. 3:11). Paul's command on the other hand, if rejected, does not bring guilt and condemnation. Paul addressed his writings to those in the Body of Christ who are bathed in forgiveness, no longer under condemnation. As a result, sin loses much of its power over the believer. It's no longer the monster that destroys, but the nuisance to be set aside.

Motivated by love for God and her children, no law is necessary to insure that she will take care of her kids. Motivated by love for God and his wife, no adultery law is needed. A man who has a neighbor who is walking in the Spirit need not fear that he will be robbed.

TeeJay

#93 Teejay

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 11:05 AM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1331267607' post='81403']
When one is preaching to the saved then what is the point then? If one does not believe in OSAS then they are using fear as a motivator when they shouldn't. Just my opinion.
[/quote]

ME, We should not rely on our opinions. Most often, our opinions are 180 degrees opposite God's opinions. If you do a search of the Bible, especially the OT, God gave a lot of warnings of what would happen to them if they did not repent and fly right. If someone is heading into danger, be it physical or spiritual, we should warn them. In fact we have an obligation to warn them.

TeeJay

#94 ikester7579

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 11:25 AM

Three different sins or three different ways to commit the SAME sin??


That's bad logic. How many ways can I kill myself and it still be suicide? Your logic to discredit this does not work.

If a person is insulted, can this person get insulted just by one means? No. There are many ways a person can get insulted yet it is still the same thing. I believe blaspheming of the Holy Ghost, the rejection of Christ, can be done in various ways yet they are all the same result.


When Christ was accused of blasphemy, what did He do to get that accusation?

THIS is the point you are not either understanding or acknowledging. I have stated numerous times that EVERY SIN is forgiven except the rejection of Christ right up until one's dying breath (the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit as I've come to understand it). Why do you keep missing this point? You've missed it again here.


When Christ was accused of blasphemy what did He do to get that accusation?

Let me make this very clear. I am going to state this one last time. I see no reason to continue this conversation if this point is not acknowledged. I'll address your question again, yet I will not answer it as it is the WRONG QUESTION to be asking in my opinion.


The reason I don;t get it is because you are using a definition of blaspheming I have never heard. Which gives me the impression it's being redefined to make osas work.

They CAN'T have "done it right". I told you before that this too is the wrong question to be asking. They can REPENT of this sin of the tongue against the Holy Spirit prior to taking their last breath, repeat: PRIOR TO THEIR LAST BREATH, when they repent of all their sins and ask forgiveness from God and accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior into their hearts. Just swearing against God the Father, the Son, or the Holy Ghost is not blaspeming of the Holy Ghost as I've come to understand it.


Making your own rules for this? I have yet to see scripture on this that says any sin can only be forgiven prior to their last breathe,

Please try to understand what I am saying. What I am saying is not bizarre, it's not heresy, and it's certainly not that confusing. Thank you.


I have no problem understanding it. Having been a osas believer myself I have never heard what you are trying to preach.

What was it that Christ did to be accused of blasphemy?

#95 ikester7579

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 11:58 AM

Ikester,

I will continue to show that there are two gospels. Unless we admit that Israel was under the dispensation of law and the Body of Christ is under the dispensation of grace, we stay confused. Mixing these two together can't be done.

Jesus preached on Hell more than anyone else or anywhere else in the Bible. And He did it as a warning TO THE JEWS. Murder, adultery, kidnapping, h*m*s*xuality, stealing was wrong before the Mosaic law was given. To get proof of this just ask Abimelech, Chedorlaomer, the Sodimites and Rachel. These sins are still immoral today and even grace apostle to the Gentiles Paul commands Christians to abstain from such behavior.

But there is a huge difference between Paul saying do not steal and the law saying do not steal. The difference is that the law comes with an inescapable curse (Gal. 3:11). Paul's command on the other hand, if rejected, does not bring guilt and condemnation. Paul addressed his writings to those in the Body of Christ who are bathed in forgiveness, no longer under condemnation. As a result, sin loses much of its power over the believer. It's no longer the monster that destroys, but the nuisance to be set aside.

Motivated by love for God and her children, no law is necessary to insure that she will take care of her kids. Motivated by love for God and his wife, no adultery law is needed. A man who has a neighbor who is walking in the Spirit need not fear that he will be robbed.

TeeJay


So what you are trying to say is that nothing in the OT applies not even the 10 commandments? Maybe we should rip out or mark through those books and verses you say no longer applies? Why read them or have them in our Bible if they are worthless and mean nothing? In fact using your logic creation does not even apply because it was written by men that were of the covenant of circumcision.

The only things that changed in the old covenant is:
1) How our sins are forgiven.
2) What we do to get them forgiven.
3) How salvation is obtained.
4) That we have to go through the Son in prayer to set a petition before the King of kings.
etc...

Only that which Christ changed by becoming our savior not all that God established as a foundation of right from wrong and the rules and commandments we must follow. The Ten Commandments are not called the Ten suggestions as some people would like to make them appear with beliefs that not one thing in the OT applies because they dont like the rules the OT has so it's easier to just do away with them.

mt 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
jn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
1cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
1jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

etc...

If what is said. claimed or implied does not apply to all then what is being used is to pick and choose from God's word which is making one's own truth.

#96 ikester7579

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 12:04 PM

1 Corinthians 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

And yeah, you caught me. I chose the KJV over the NASB, they seem to say different things. hmmm


I noticed in your interests that you have cult mind control. Now I know what you mean (you study it to be able to stand up against it) by that but others may not and shy away from your counsel because to some they might think you are into that. So I'd remove that to make sure there's no confusion.

#97 MamaElephant

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 12:12 PM

okay how about "cult exit counseling" I can't seem to figure out how to edit it though. ???

#98 ikester7579

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 12:29 PM

okay how about "cult exit counseling" I can't seem to figure out how to edit it though. ???


I'll change it for you.

#99 Salsa

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 01:23 PM

UD, I will try one more time. My dictionary defines "contrive" as a "plot, scheme, plan to do evil." Why would I do that? Now some facts that I want you to disppute:


Sorry, of course I don't mean that. Living in a foreign country and speaking a foreign language for over 30 years sometimes has an impact on your vocabulary.

1. A grace gospel, saved by faith plus nothing, can't be found in any circumcision writings.
2. Other than the gentile Cornelius, there is no Biblical record of any circumcision apostle witnessing to one Gentile.
3. Establishment of the Body of Christ with a grace gospel was a "mystery," "kept secret," "never before revealed."
4. The circumcision apostles were keeping the law after the Cross.
5. Jesus never told one Jew, under the gospel of circumcision, that law keeping and works were not required.


Teejay, not one of these points show that God had multiple Gospels. The Bible mentions "the Gospel", and never "Gospels". That God had separate purposes for Israel and the gentiles does not mean that he had separate Gospels. That the apostles did things according to the law does not mean that they were doing them for the purpose of justifying themselves.

Listen, if God told you, as a Christian, that he wanted you to get circumcised, would you do it?

Of course you would, not because you were following a written code in order to justify yourself, but because you have been born again and have in your heart a willingness to obey God. I believe the apostles had a willingness to obey God and that they did so in accordance with God's purpose for Isreal. However, they were justified by faith in Christ, just as we were.

Will you then admit that members of the Body of Christ do not have to keep the Sabbath?


Did I say anything to suggest that we do?

And should it not dawn on you that perhaps there is a difference between Israel and the Body?


If you are talking about the physical nation of Israel and the Body of Christ then of course. Where did I say anything that remotely suggests that the nation of Israel was the Body of Christ? However, it is important to distinguish between the physical and the spiritual. "A man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code."

And somehow, you take this to mean that circumcision has no value?????????????????????????????????? How in the world did you get that interpretation? And you accuse me of being a contriver. Yikes!


It's not my interpretation. It is what Paul wrote, twice in fact:

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love". Gal 5:6

"Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation." Gal 6:15

But you already admitted above that the Sabbath law was perpetual for Israel? So now you're saying that in the future it would just be a shadow?


Again, I base it on Paul's writings:

'Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

#100 Salsa

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 01:34 PM

One more thing Teejey. To whom do you think Peter was writing in his epistles? To the Jews or the gentiles?




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