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Two Gospels Revisited...


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#61 MamaElephant

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 06:40 PM

That's good. Being neutral means you can allow God's word and the Holy Spirit to guide you in what truth is concerning this,

:yes:

#62 Teejay

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 07:55 PM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1331775635' post='81682']
:yes:
[/quote]

ME and Ikester, before you start giving yourselves praises for such foolish wisdom: "He who does not gather scatters." No neutrality with God. If you receive a message from a spirit that does not agree with the Bible, it's not from the Holy Spirit.

TeeJay

#63 Stripe

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 08:01 PM

Stripe, if you want to play silly games with silly questions then do so. If you want to debate this issue then there are a whole lot of things I have posted in response to both your and Teejay's arguments. Do you think I quote someone without challenging what they say? If you think that my response was a strawman or a missrepresentation of what you said or anything else along that line then please just spit it out so we can discuss it. I'm just like anyone else who is capable of being wrong and missunderstanding an argument. So if you don't like my response then just tell me why and hopefully we can straighten it out.

I dunno. I said the mystery was revealed to Paul - you said the mystery was revealed to Paul. Yet you seem to be trying to argue against me.

I'm just a touch confused. :)

#64 MamaElephant

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 09:12 PM

ME and Ikester, before you start giving yourselves praises for such foolish wisdom: "He who does not gather scatters." No neutrality with God. If you receive a message from a spirit that does not agree with the Bible, it's not from the Holy Spirit.

I do agree that the Holy Spirit will never contradict God's written word. I also think that you are given a lot of liberty to insult Christians that disagree with you. I also think that you are misrepresenting what Ikester said since he said to let God's word guide me along with the Holy Spirit. I think I have seen you do this more than once. I will also remind you once again that the thread topic and the topic I am disagreeing with is not OSAS.

I simply haven't had the time or the leading to research this aspect thoroughly yet. I have had to come up against heretical beliefs in more than one place in my young Christian life. and witnessing to people who do not realize that Jesus is God! I also do not believe that my salvation is at risk by not yet having a definitive answer to OSAS, as long as I don't allow men's teachings to twist things, and rely on God.

When believers look to the law for motivation or guidance or growth, they are overlooking God. God or the law, that is the choice, for no member of the Body of Christ gets to choose both. To the extent a Christian partakes of the law, to that extent he disregards the Lord.

But you said that the law is still in effect and we should execute people based on the law!

Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor. 3:17
For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 2 Cor. 3:9

Giving God ten percent, because a rule says to do so, illustrates the trouble with the law. Most churches teach tithing; yet, a survey of contributions shows that most churchgoers either cannot or simply do not tithe. Thus the teaching of this legalistic regulation will make people feel condemned (the law’s main dish). It drives men away from God.

Tithing helps men avoid a personal relationship with God. The believer does not need to pray to ask God for wisdom to decide how to use his resources. He does not need to discern the peace of God ruling in his heart as he determines how much to give. Following the law, he mindlessly and obediently turns over 10 percent, distancing himself from a personal relationship with God.

Just as a good parent needs no law to lovingly nurture his or her child, the healthy Christian needs no law to love God or his neighbor.

Yes, you have some good thoughts mixed in there too.

If anyone argues that there is no difference between the gospel of circumcision or law and what Paul teaches under the gospel of grace, he will never walk in the Spirit and his walk with the Lord will be unfruitful.

This argument is flawed, for there is no "gospel" of circumcision or law. You did try to condemn those that disagree with Teejay though.

#65 MamaElephant

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 10:36 PM

Teejay, you never answered this.

Let me ask you a question, as this is difficult to keep track of: Do you say that if Israel had not rejected their Messiah, then God's Kingdom would have been established on earth back in the first century?



#66 MamaElephant

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:29 AM

John 6:28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

#67 ikester7579

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 04:26 AM

ME and Ikester, before you start giving yourselves praises for such foolish wisdom: "He who does not gather scatters." No neutrality with God. If you receive a message from a spirit that does not agree with the Bible, it's not from the Holy Spirit.

TeeJay


You mean agree with your interpretation of the Bible. Nice try.

And by the way since you think Holy Spirit wisdom that is not approved by "you" first is foolish, most mean you think you are above the Holy Spirit in wisdom. Now that answers a lot of questions as to why you debate the way you do.

#68 Fred Williams

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 05:45 AM

Well I would gladly see Fred Williams back in this debate!

I truly wanted a debate from someone who knows how to debate, who carefully consideres every counter-argument and answers each of them, not just a couple, and preferably without a condescending tone.

Fred Williams, where are you???

Yeah Fred, I'm an idiot too. I can live with that, but as an idiot I expect a response from someone who is wiser than me and that shows me clearly that at least the bulk of my arguments are wrong.

All I am getting is "all you have to do is separate the Jews from the gentiles and everything makes sense".

I am seeing just the opposite!


I apologize for not responding sooner, but I've been swamped more than usual. I had a reply written up over lunch at work to your first post, only to have my computer reboot before I could post it (the usual distractions at work, interruptions, meetings, etc). I even had it written in MS Word and for some reason the recovery didn't work. I promise I'll respond, I just need a little time.

Fred

#69 Salsa

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 06:02 AM

I apologize for not responding sooner, but I've been swamped more than usual. I had a reply written up over lunch at work to your first post, only to have my computer reboot before I could post it (the usual distractions at work, interruptions, meetings, etc). I even had it written in MS Word and for some reason the recovery didn't work. I promise I'll respond, I just need a little time.

Fred


Excuses, excuses ... :P

#70 Salsa

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 06:17 AM

This type of teaching can't be found anywhere but Paul.


The trouble is Teejay, the other apostles who's letters were included in the bible only wrote a FRACTION of what Paul did. There is a whole bunch of stuff that Paul wrote that you don't find in their writings!

Paul, in clear language, wrote the doctrine of righteousness apart from works.

Where is the doctrine for this "works + grace" gospel? Did Paul mention it? Did Peter mention it? James? John? Why did none of these apostles mention it?

Also, you still haven't addressed the fact that Paul's letters were being shared among the Jewish chruches.

The only way anyone would remain under the law would be if they were not led by the spirit:

"if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law." Gal 5:18

So what can we conclude from this then? The Jews weren't led by the Spirit?

I don't think so.

#71 Teejay

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 06:59 AM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1331789790' post='81694']
Teejay, you never answered this.
[/quote]

ME,

Yes! The whole of the first half of the Book of Acts shows the Twelve desperately trying to get Israel, as a nation, to accept their risen Messiah. God had given Israel one more year in the parable of the fig tree. Here is an example of Peter pleading with Israel:

"Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may SEND JESUS CHRIST, who was preached to you before" (Acts 3:19-20). The Twelve were starting into their tribulation. Jesus promised them He was coming back soon, so get to work in Israel and Samaria. The twelve signs that Jesus gave them of their coming tribulation were fulfilled (all except one I believe).

Israel was to be God's evangelical nation to the world. Under the gospel of circumcision, an evangelistic Jew in Africa say was going to be able to "lay hands on the sick and they would recover." They would be immune to snake bites and poison. If anyone thinks they are under the covenant of circumcision, I have some Texax Rattlers here on my ranch we can test that belief.

Jesus gave Israel a Great Commission to go to the world. This they did not do. Other than God dragging Peter to witness to one Gentile Cornelius, there is no Biblical record of any Jew witnessing to any Gentiles. How could Israel be God's evangelical nation if they rejected their Messiah? How could God give them their kingdom when they hated their King? God cut off Israel and Peter was included.

TeeJay

#72 Teejay

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:20 AM

JS, I guesss I should first post how one gains entry into the Body of Christ. Most Christians don't know there is a Body of Christ. They think they are in the "kingdom." But the kingdom is for the Jews and it is future when Jesus comes back to Israel. As member of His Body, our citizenship is in heaven. Jews under the law will have an earthly kingdom with Jesus as King sitting on King David's throne in Jerusalem, and He will reign for 1,000 years. The following is a bit of why I know a bit about life under Peter and why I put in for a transfer to Paul's outfit. I try to keep a copy of it on my person or in my truck. When I witness to someone, and I can get them to pray the prayer of salvation in accordance with Romans 10:9-10, I never let them leave without a copy of this.

Salvation

I was born and raised a Catholic—an Irish Catholic. I was baptized, studied under and was whooped by the nuns, received first Holy Communion, and was confirmed. From childhood to adulthood, I attended mass every Sunday; confessed my sins to a priest every Saturday night and prayed ten Hail Mary’s and five Our Father’s to be repentant); received communion every Sunday; refrained from eating meat on Friday; said the Rosary; lit candles to the saints; blessed myself with Holy Water entering and leaving the church; observed Ash Wednesday; observed Palm Sunday; kneeled, stood, and sat when told; did the Stations of the Cross; prayed to Mary; went to High Mass on Easter; observed All Saints Day. After all this, no priest, nun, or any Catholic could answer the question: “Are we going to heaven when we die?" Not even the priest knew if he was saved. But every Sunday, the priest would preach that Jesus died to save us. So I reasoned that if He died to save us, why aren’t we saved? Of one thing the priest was sure: If you were a non-Catholic, you would burn in Hell. Why didn’t the priests know?

The simple answer is that the Catholic Church places itself under the authority of Peter. Peter was a Jew who was under the Covenant of Circumcision or the Law. Circumcision in the Bible is a synonym for law. So, there is the covenant of circumcision and the covenant of grace. To understand this better we must look to Abraham.

God made two covenants with Abraham. Under the first covenant in Genesis 15, God put Abraham to sleep. While asleep, Abraham could do nothing except believe. “And he believed God; and He counted it to him for righteousness (Gal. 3:6).” Fourteen years later, in Genesis 17, God commanded Abraham to circumcise. This is the second covenant.

The first covenant is the Covenant of grace which Paul would preach. Paul would also refer to it as the Gospel of unCircumcision (Gal. 2:7 & 9). The command to circumcise is the second covenant or the Gospel of Circumcision (works plus faith). The Gospel of unCircumcision is justification by faith alone. The Apostle Paul would write of this in Romans 4:

“Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin. Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, and the father of the circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.”

We are not under the authority of Peter. We are under the authority of Paul. Paul is the “apostle to the Gentiles.” “… for he [Paul] is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel” (Acts 9:15). Paul writes that because of unbelief, God cut off the nation of Israel (Romans 11:20). When God cut off Israel, Peter, as a citizen of Israel, was cut off as well. Peter was saved and is with the Lord, but Israel’s promised kingdom is on hold. When God cut off Israel, He simultaneously grafted in the Gentiles. God bypassed Israel (His intended evangelical nation) and went directly to the Gentiles with the Apostle Paul. But God also did something different. He gave Paul the Gospel of unCircumcision where salvation is by faith plus nothing. Paul explains this in Galatians.

Galatians 2:7-9 is proof positive that there were two covenants in effect in the last half of the Book of Acts:
“But on the contrary, when they [circumcision apostles at Jerusalem Council (Acts 15)] saw that the gospel for [OF] the uncircumcised had been committed to me [Paul], as the gospel for [OF] the circumcised was to Peter (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), and when James, Peter and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the GRACE [GOSPEL] that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.” Gal. 2:7-9
Note: The KJV renders the passage in the most common manner, true to the usual function of the genitive case of these Greek nouns, “the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was to Peter.” The KJV translates these nouns as expected as genitives of description (describing the Gospel that was committed to each). Unexpectedly, the NKJV translates them as though they were indirect object genitives. Even if this unlikely translation were correct, WHICH IT IS NOT, the point remains: there is the Gospel for the Body and the Gospel for Israel, the former based on grace, the latter on circumcision [law].

What I am now about to tell you will seem too good to be true. You will say,"it just can’t be that simple.” But if you don’t believe me, then tear all of Paul’s letters out of the Bible.

“But what does it [the word] say? ‘The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart’ (that is, the word of faith which we preach); that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus Christ [that Jesus Christ is God] and believe in your heart that God [the Father] has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation” (Rom. 10:9-10).

When we make this prayer of faith, Paul writes:

“For by one Spirit we were all baptized into the Body—whether Jews or Greeks [Gentiles], whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.” 1 Cor. 12:13

Once in the Body of Christ, we are secure. We cannot lose our salvation!

“In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were SEALED with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the GUARANTEE [down payment] of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession [our bodies at the rapture] to the praise of His glory”. Eph. 1:13-14
“There is one Body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.” Eph. 4:4-6

After praying the prayer of salvation, your name is recorded in the Lamb’s Book of Life. You are an heir. Imagine hearing that your rich uncle mentioned you in his will. You would immediately read the will to see what you are entitled to. When you pray this prayer, you are mentioned in God’s will--Paul’s writings. Read them carefully!
Now, when someone asks you, “If you died right now, would you go to heaven or hell?” you can confidently and joyfully answer, “Most assuredly. I have humbled myself before God and admitted I am a lost sinner. I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, and I have accepted His sacrifice on the cross as more than sufficient payment for my sins—past, present, and future. I am washed in the blood of Christ. If I died with Him, I shall also live with Him forever. Oh Death, where is thy sting.”

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#73 Teejay

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:36 AM

ME, you asked a good question: If the law is passed away why do I advocate the death penalty? I love good questions and you raised a good one.



Today, we should not execute violators of the Sabbath, for example. God commanded this only for Israel. But criminals who commit murder or kidnap should be executed swiftly. God demands the death penalty for any act which leads to death. For example, if a woman bears false witness against a man and claims that he raped her, then God commands that the death penalty that she purposed for the man she falsely accused should come back on her. God commands that she, the false witness in a capital rape case, be put to death. If we take away all of the symbolic law for Israel, which of God’s death penalty laws should we have today?

Murder Gen. 9:6; Ex. 21:12-14; 20:13; Lev. 24:17, 21; Num. 35:16-21; Deut. 19:11-13. Note: In Deut. 19:16-20, God commands that an attempted crime should be punished as if successful. Don’t reward the shooter for being a bad shot.
Kidnapping Ex. 21:16; Deut. 24:7
Deadly negligence Ex. 21:28-30; Deut. 22:8
Capital perjury Deut. 19:16-21; Ex. 20:16
Adultery Lev. 20:10; Deut. 22:22; Ex. 20:14
Sodomy (h*m*s*xuality) Lev. 18:22 & 29; 20:13
b*stiality Ex. 22:19; Lev. 20:15-16
Incest Lev. 20:11-21
Rape of engaged woman Deut. 22:25
Rape of married woman Deut. 22:22-25

(Note: In Deut. 22:28-29, if a man lies with a single woman who is not engaged or married, and he is caught, then that man must pay a monetary restitution to her father, for she has been defiled. Additionally, he must marry her, and he can never divorce her on the days of his life.)

Human sacrifice Lev. 20:2
Manslaughter during a crime Ex. 21:22-23
Abortion Ex. 21:22-23

(This Biblical text is accurately translated, as in the New King James, premature birth, not miscarriage Thus, if an assault leads to a premature birth, and the baby is physically injured as a result, punish the perpetrator with an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. But if the baby dies, then punish the guilty man life for life.)



Execution teaches men of the certainty of God’s eternal punishment. When governments neglect the death penalty, people scoff at the second death. The New Testament reinforces Old Testament support for the death penalty:

Be afraid of the sword for yourselves; for wrath brings the punishment of the sword, that you may know there is judgment. Job. 19:29

The righteous shall rejoice when he sees the vengeance…. So that men will say, “…Surely He is God who judges in the earth.” Psalm 58:10-11

“Will you profane Me [asks the Lord] killing people who should not die [babies in the womb], and keeping people alive who should not live [Tookie Williams, Karla Faye Tucker, Scott Peterson, abortionists, kidnappers, h*m*sexuals, etc.]…?” God, Ezekiel 13:19

Earthly judges are commanded by God to judge the flesh, oblivious to a man's heart. Earthly judges are encapable of judging what's in a man's heart. God will judge his heart. If he is a member of the Body of Christ, he is saved and will go to be with the Lord. Of course he will lose any rewards he had coming but he will not lose his slavation. Although he committed murder, this sin can't be imputed against him. He has been redeemed from the law and where there is no law, there is no condemnation.

TeeJay

#74 Salsa

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:51 AM

Jesus gave Israel a Great Commission to go to the world. This they did not do. Other than God dragging Peter to witness to one Gentile Cornelius, there is no Biblical record of any Jew witnessing to any Gentiles. How could Israel be God's evangelical nation if they rejected their Messiah? How could God give them their kingdom when they hated their King? God cut off Israel and Peter was included.

TeeJay


What?? So now the other aposltles hated Jesus???

Tell me I'm missreading you Teejay... please!

#75 Teejay

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 08:16 AM

[quote] name='UppsalaDragby' timestamp='1331817428' post='81701']
The trouble is Teejay, the other apostles who's letters were included in the bible only wrote a FRACTION of what Paul did. There is a whole bunch of stuff that Paul wrote that you don't find in their writings![/quote]

UD, there are some reasons for this. God cut off Israel. The Twelve were in a maintenance mode; Paul was in an evangelistic/growth mode. The Twelve's program was no longer in effect; Paul's was. And the reason you don't find what Paul wrote in what the Twelve wrote is that what Paul wrote he got directly from God and it was different. Read chapters 1 and 2 of Galatians for a start.

[quote]Paul, in clear language, wrote the doctrine of righteousness apart from works.[/quote]

Yes. But you will not find "righteousness apart from works in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, James, Peter, or Revelation even. Only Paul writes of this.

[quote]Where is the doctrine for this "works + grace" gospel? Did Paul mention it? Did Peter mention it? James? John? Why did none of these apostles mention it?[/quote]

Jesus and all the circumcision apostles mentioned it. You must be reading a different Bible. Whenever Jesus was asked how to be saved, He answered, "Keek the law." A Jew under the gospel of circumcision had to baptize, circumcise, keep the Sabbaths, keep the feasts. This was not optional. Violation of them was a death penalty. Will you admit that if these were "perpetual" laws for Israel, then they were not under the gospel of grace where there is no law or works?

[quote]Also, you still haven't addressed the fact that Paul's letters were being shared among the Jewish chruches.[/quote]

Yes. Because in the Body of Christ there is no Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female. Why would Paul write this? Because when a Jew was circumcised on the eighth day, he was under the Abrahamic covenant of circumcision. (Jesus placed Himself under it when He was circumcised.) A female came under it when she was born to a Jewish man or married one. A Gentile came under this covenant when he became a proselyte Jew. He then had to get circumcised and keep the law. A slave came under it when he had a Jewish master.

But Paul writes that we, in the Body of Christ, we can approach God individuals without having to go through Israel. "We can come boldly to the throne of God," Paul writes. If I meet a Jew who tells me he is a Messanic Jew or a Jewish Christian, I politely correct him that he is simply a Christian and a member of the Body f Christ where there are no Jews or Gentiles. The nation of Israel was corporate or national. The Body of Christ is international composed of members.

[quote]The only way anyone would remain under the law would be if they were not led by the spirit:[/quote]

Read what I wrote to JS. You can't be led by the law and the Spirit at the same time. It's one or the other. "The law is a ministry of death engraved on stone." "The law is not of faith." "Without faith it is impossible to please God." "By the law no flesh will be justified." By the Tree is the knowledge; by the Law is the knowledge of sin." The law and the Tree are synosyms. God did not want a relationship with Adam and Eve by the Tree and He does not want a relationship with us based on law. You will get no praises from Gor (or your wife) if you have never strayed because the law against adultery was your motivation. The law gives passion to our evl desires. Just put a book on a shelf and tell you son not to even touch it. If it is a book on Shakespere, he will become a Shakesperian scholar the first time you leave to go to work.

[quote]"if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law." Gal 5:18

So what can we conclude from this then? The Jews weren't led by the Spirit?

I don't think so.
[/quote]

That was not written to Jews under Peter. God had planned for Israel to take the law, miracles, and Jesus to the world. They were to be a testamony of Jesus. In the Ark of the Covenant (which was also called the Ark of Testamony), there were miracles (Aaron's rod), the law (stone tablets), and the Manna (Jesus Christ or the True Bread from Heaven). The Jews's evangelical tools were the law, miracles, and Jesus. "Ten men would grab the sleeve of a Jewish man and say we want to go with you...." Why would ten men do this? Miracles.

The miracles would get people's attention and put God's stamp of approval on them. The law would convict them. And Jesus would save them. You can't give a cure for cancer pill to someone unless ou first convince them they have cancer. Paul writes that the law was not made for the righteous but for murderers, rapists, kidnappers, etc. Today we tell h*m*sexuals that they are most wonderful of creatures and then try to witness to them. They look at you as if you're strange. Before we can convince that they need Jesus to save them, we must first convince them they need saving. And that is what the law does.

TeeJay

#76 Teejay

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 08:24 AM

[quote] name='UppsalaDragby' timestamp='1331823086' post='81707']
What?? So now the other aposltles hated Jesus???

Tell me I'm missreading you Teejay... please!
[/quote]

UD, I posted to you once before that your worldview will not allow you to see the truth that I am posting. I already covered this, but your worldview makes you not see it.

When I write that Israel was cut off, this has nothing to do with individual salvation. Peter and his followers loved Jesus but they failed to persuade the nation of Israel to accept their risen Messiah. Could God have given the kingdom to Peter and his followers only. Yes. But that is not what God decided to do. Instead He took Paul with a new gospel and bypassed Israel and went directly to the Gentiles. Understand that God did not raise us up to Israel's level. Rather He lowered Israel to our level so that He could have mercy on both Jew and Gentile.

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#77 Teejay

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 08:33 AM

UD,

I must also remind you that only Peter was commanded by God to visit a Gentile. The others were commanded by God to go only to Jerusalem, Judea, and Samaria. Their first mission was to persuade Israel as a nation to accept their risen Messiah. Realize that Israel had already rejected Jesus when He walked among them and did miracles.

In fact, when the other apostles and brethren who were in Judea heard that Peter had gone to a Gentile, "they contended with him" (Acts 11:1-2), saying, "You went in to uncircumcised men and ate with them!" (Acts 11:3). But it gets worser. Peter goes on to tell them that the Holy Spirit fell on them WITHOUT THEIR BEING CIRCUMCISED." God did this to show Peter that He was bypassing Israel and their circumcision requirement to approach Gd.

TeeJay

#78 MamaElephant

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 10:08 AM

Do you say that if Israel had not rejected their Messiah, then God's Kingdom would have been established on earth back in the first century?

ME,

Yes!

Scripture shows that Israel will indeed be circumcising and keeping Sabbath law and the Feast of Atonement. But understand that your citizenship is in heaven (spiritual) and Israel's citizenship is on earth (earthly). The Body looks forward to living in heaven (Phil 3:20; Col. 1:5; 1 Thes. 4:16-17). The nation of Israel looks forward to the new earth (Isa. 65:17; 66:22; 49:8; Hag. 2:6-9; 2 Pet. 3:13; Rev. 21:1, 24).
So, we will not necessarily be "standing around Jesus' throne" because Jesus will be sitting on King David's throne ruling the world from Israel with His twelve apostles ruling over the twelve tribes of Israel.

Thank you. Now let's see if your reasoning is sound:

John 13:33 "My children, I will be with you only a little longer. You will look for me, and just as I told the Jews, so I tell you now: Where I am going, you cannot come.

John 13:36 Simon Peter asked him, "Lord, where are you going?" Jesus replied, "Where I am going, you cannot follow now, but you will follow later."
John 14:2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you.
John 16:5 "Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?'

John 7:33 Jesus said, "I am with you for only a short time, and then I go to the one who sent me.
John 7:34 You will look for me, but you will not find me; and where I am, you cannot come."
John 7:36 What did he mean when he said, 'You will look for me, but you will not find me,' and 'Where I am, you cannot come'?"

Israel was to be God's evangelical nation to the world. Under the gospel of circumcision, an evangelistic Jew in Africa say was going to be able to "lay hands on the sick and they would recover." They would be immune to snake bites and poison. If anyone thinks they are under the covenant of circumcision, I have some Texax Rattlers here on my ranch we can test that belief.

Was Paul under the gospel of circumcision Teejay?

Jesus gave Israel a Great Commission to go to the world. This they did not do. Other than God dragging Peter to witness to one Gentile Cornelius, there is no Biblical record of any Jew witnessing to any Gentiles. How could Israel be God's evangelical nation if they rejected their Messiah? How could God give them their kingdom when they hated their King? God cut off Israel and Peter was included.

TeeJay

Define "Gentile" please.

#79 Teejay

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 11:18 AM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1331796573' post='81696']
John 6:28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
[/quote]

Jesus was talking to Jews under the covenant of circumcision. Even after acceptance of Jesus, they still had to circumcise, baptize, keep Sabbath law, and the feasts and all the law for salvation.

Under this gospel, salvation was not assured but was contingent on how well a Jew obeyed the law and produced fruit.

Under our covenant (uncircumcision), if you do not know your are saved, you are not saved.

TeeJay

#80 MamaElephant

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 11:27 AM

I will make it simple: "What works shall we do?" Jesus said "believe on him whom he hath sent."

"One cannot believe in a false god or a false way and have true salvation. If any person is willing to take God at His Word, the Bible alone will become his final source for truth."-- David Weeks, Baptist World Cult Evangelism.


John 6:28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? (BIBLE)
29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. (BIBLE)

Jesus was talking to Jews under the covenant of circumcision. (NOT BIBLE) Even after acceptance of Jesus, they still had to circumcise, baptize, keep Sabbath law, and the feasts and all the law for salvation. (NOT BIBLE)

Under this gospel, salvation was not assured but was contingent on how well a Jew obeyed the law and produced fruit. (NOT BIBLE)

Under our covenant (uncircumcision), if you do not know your are saved, you are not saved. (NOT BIBLE)






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