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#21 gilbo12345

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 03:41 PM

If aliens existed and were handed over to sin , then they would have to be Adam's descendants and that would be impossible if they were on a different planet. But...I've seen no credible evidence of alien life visiting this planet. A craft witnessed by many people is only proof that a craft was seen and many of the craft drawn by eyewitnesses usually resemble top secret air force projects.

Enjoy.


Why would they have to be Adam's descendants?

I have always thought that the Bible is more about God and his purposes for Earth, (yes it mentions the creation of the universe, but from there on it is describing Earth exclusively), hence if there are civilizations elsewhere there would be no contradiction since the Bible doesn't cover that topic.

#22 JayShel

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 04:18 PM

Why would they have to be Adam's descendants?

I have always thought that the Bible is more about God and his purposes for Earth, (yes it mentions the creation of the universe, but from there on it is describing Earth exclusively), hence if there are civilizations elsewhere there would be no contradiction since the Bible doesn't cover that topic.


Oh man, if God made a different covenant with these aliens, like, "The wage of sin is beer and Chicken Nuggets", then I would be jealous. BIG TIME!

Based on the unchanging nature of God, I would say that this alien civilization would need a savior just like us, for the same reason; given free will we (and aliens) couldn't help but to sin. Then God must reveal the law to us because it is based on who He is, and we (and aliens) couldn't help but to break the law. Then we (and aliens) need a savior, and Jesus was said to have died for ALL, which would apply to a person from earth across the universe as much as a person on the earth, so I would assume this means aliens too...and if not He would have to give them a different covenant (way to get to right standing before God)......plus the description of heaven doesn't include aliens and...at least I don't think and so He would have to make ANOTHER heaven and...oh no I've gone cross eye'd...

#23 gilbo12345

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 04:29 PM

Oh man, if God made a different covenant with these aliens, like, "The wage of sin is beer and Chicken Nuggets", then I would be jealous. BIG TIME!

Based on the unchanging nature of God, I would say that this alien civilization would need a savior just like us, for the same reason; given free will we (and aliens) couldn't help but to sin. Then God must reveal the law to us because it is based on who He is, and we (and aliens) couldn't help but to break the law. Then we (and aliens) need a savior, and Jesus was said to have died for ALL, which would apply to a person from earth across the universe as much as a person on the earth, so I would assume this means aliens too...and if not He would have to give them a different covenant (way to get to right standing before God)......plus the description of heaven doesn't include aliens and...at least I don't think and so He would have to make ANOTHER heaven and...oh no I've gone cross eye'd...


Lol that covenant would be a bit more cushy :P

I agree with what you said.

Didn't Jesus say "there are many rooms in my father's house", perhaps the aliens get one of the other rooms ;)

#24 JayShel

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 06:17 PM

Lol that covenant would be a bit more cushy :P

I agree with what you said.

Didn't Jesus say "there are many rooms in my father's house", perhaps the aliens get one of the other rooms ;)


Unless beer and chicken nuggets caused them to die due to a different body chemistry. Wait, do you think they have chickens like we have, or would they be alien-chickens?

That rooms quote is quite bizarre in the fact that it is isolated from context clues as far as I can tell. I will have to look into it further.

#25 gilbo12345

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 06:40 PM

Unless beer and chicken nuggets caused them to die due to a different body chemistry. Wait, do you think they have chickens like we have, or would they be alien-chickens?

That rooms quote is quite bizarre in the fact that it is isolated from context clues as far as I can tell. I will have to look into it further.


I'm sure aliens would have chooks, that would explain why chicken tastes like everything... It's universal :P

No problem, who is to say that anyone has complete 100% understanding.. This is why so often the meaning of passages are different (slightly or more so), from pastor to pastor, even from Christian to Christian.

#26 Richard

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 07:14 PM

I think the rise of UFOs belief is correlated with the rise in manned space exploration as is science fiction in the movies. Don't get me wrong, I love science fiction, but UFOs always come back to relying on some sort of science fiction technology that is beyond anything humanly known or remotely understood and defying the laws of physics which still apply even to little green men, and no, I don't believe anyone has actually witnessed one nor do I believe that something physical can make a 90 degree turn going hundreds of miles an hour.

Sure, there could be some alien race out there with these technologies. Where, we don't know, but we know that it's not in this solar system. Interestingly, most "aliens" came from Mars before we actually knew that was no intelligent life in this solar system. I actually sat up one Halloween night in the '70s and listened to a re-broadcast of the radio version of HG Wells, "War of Worlds," narrated by Orson Welles. I wanted to hear for myself what had caused mass hysteria in America by actually convincing people that Earth was being invaded by Martians. If you've never heard it, it's fantastic, but it wouldn't fool anyone today. Even the least educated person knows that the only thing on Mars is rocks and dirt and probes sent there from Earth, so our "UFOs" have had to start coming from beyond the solar system.

The problem is the distances. Do you remember building those models of the solar system as a kid and using styrofoam balls for the planets? Do you know that if you built a scale model of the solar system and used a "Sun" about the size of a basketball, your "solar system" would have to be over a mile wide before you got out to Pluto, and once you get outside the solar system, the distances get mind boggling. With your sun the size of a basketball, the closest star, Alpha Centauri, is about 5000 miles away.

I guess there could be beings that can travel those distances that normally take billions (that's billions with a "B") years distance. How, we don't know. Perhaps through "worm holes" that we don't know for sure even exists that somehow bends time in ways no one has ever experienced and that can't be tested. And they've come all this way, but they won't park their space ship in Central Park and stay for a cup of coffee and a chat. Doesn't make sense to me.

On the other hand, I don't see any theological implications. CS Lewis dealt with this very issue in his Space Trilogy. "Out of the Silent Planet," postulates a race of unfallen beings who were tested just as the human race was in the garden but they pass the test. I don't see a reason theologically that there couldn't exist a race of unfallen beings created by God -- in fact that is what angels are except they're spiritual and not physical. I just won't ever believe in UFOs, Bigfoot, etc until I can see one up close and personal for myself.
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#27 JayShel

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 07:37 PM

I'm sure aliens would have chooks, that would explain why chicken tastes like everything... It's universal :P

No problem, who is to say that anyone has complete 100% understanding.. This is why so often the meaning of passages are different (slightly or more so), from pastor to pastor, even from Christian to Christian.


We know that which is important about salvation. The rest can be a bit murky at times. This is one of those cases. I believe what makes sense to what I know about the topic, yet in my estimation there is no airtight case either way.

#28 jason777

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 08:52 PM

Why would they have to be Adam's descendants?

I have always thought that the Bible is more about God and his purposes for Earth, (yes it mentions the creation of the universe, but from there on it is describing Earth exclusively), hence if there are civilizations elsewhere there would be no contradiction since the Bible doesn't cover that topic.


The bible says that sin entered the world through Adam. So, the curse of sin is only bound to those whose father has sinned. We are Adam's descendants so we are all born into a curse. These aliens are not Adam's descendants so they were not born into sin from the worldly perspective, but the curse may apply to all of creation instead of just our planet since we see stars exploding, galaxies colliding, etc.

Although, it would explain why we haven't been invaded by these aliens since these aliens aren't sinners.


Enjoy.

#29 gilbo12345

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 11:54 PM

The bible says that sin entered the world through Adam. So, the curse of sin is only bound to those whose father has sinned. We are Adam's descendants so we are all born into a curse. These aliens are not Adam's descendants so they were not born into sin from the worldly perspective, but the curse may apply to all of creation instead of just our planet since we see stars exploding, galaxies colliding, etc.

Although, it would explain why we haven't been invaded by these aliens since these aliens aren't sinners.


Enjoy.


You've explained my perspective.. Aliens are not of this world, hence whilst Adam was the cause of sin for this world he is not deigned the cause of sin for other worlds. Therefore aliens not of this world can also be sinners but not be descendants of Adam :)

Who is to say that the curse bestowed on this world is part of the cause of catastrophe outside of this world... Perhaps the aliens sinned whilst Adam and Eve were still in the garden of Eden. Who knows, there is no scripture relating to this so it is merely an unsolvable problem.

#30 Remnant of The Abyss

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 02:11 PM

If aliens existed and were handed over to sin , then they would have to be Adam's descendants and that would be impossible if they were on a different planet.


Excellent point. There's no getting around this as Adam was the first man.

And Adam was created in God's image. So how does an alien believer get around the fact that all the reported depictions of aliens are NOT in the image of Man-- God's image??

Genesis 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

#31 Remnant of The Abyss

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 02:37 PM

Genesis 1:14-19
And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

Hmm. No mention of aliens here; this is before Adam.

Genesis 2:2,3
By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

Hmm. No mention of aliens here; this is after Adam.

#32 Remnant of The Abyss

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 02:41 PM

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.


Except 'aliens'??

#33 gilbo12345

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 02:55 PM

Genesis 1:14-19
And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

Hmm. No mention of aliens here; this is before Adam.

Genesis 2:2,3
By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

Hmm. No mention of aliens here; this is after Adam.



Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence...


As the Bible says, God has his own secrets... Thus we do not know everything, and not everything is explained in the Bible. Hence you cannot claim one way or the other.

I have been told that being created in God's image is to do with our capability for rational thought, logic, creativity, artistic expression etc... Since God can do all these things, and animals are not it does seem to be the case. Furthermore it would be hard to get an "image" of something that has no natural body.. What form would God take if any since we'd assume He can take any form He chose. Hence an Alien race can be endowed with these attributes as well.



I have already explained how Aliens can sin, without being descendants of Adam, (since Adam is the cause of this for this world... and Aliens would not be of this world)

#34 Remnant of The Abyss

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 03:11 PM

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence...


Anything not in the Bible, either written or inferred, is speculation. You are not on solid ground here, just quicksand.

As the Bible says, God has his own secrets... Thus we do not know everything, and not everything is explained in the Bible. Hence you cannot claim one way or the other....I have already explained how Aliens can sin, without being descendants of Adam, (since Adam is the cause of this for this world... and Aliens would not be of this world)


How about you explain God's plan for the redemption of these 'sinful aliens' then? This is your thing, so explain. You can even imagine your own 'God's secrets' to explain it. But do it Biblically.

You can't obviously. Therefore you won't convince any Christian of your conjecture. But there is Biblical evidence that counteracts your conjecture. Therefore it's more than reasonable for any Bible believing Christian to conclude that aliens don't exist.

Furthermore, I've already explained how Christ could not, and would not, be the sacrificial lamb for "aliens".

So are you saying you believe in aliens? Here's something to consider... if there are aliens, and one believes in God, one could make a fair guess that aliens would have been created with free will as well. And it's not far reaching to say that their free will allowed them to sin against God, and then they would need a savior as well. So do you think Christ was crucified somewhere else in the universe so that these sinners could be redeemed? And since Christ already came to earth in human form, if indeed He had to be the sacrificial lamb of God somewhere else in the universe for aliens, then he would have to take on an alien form on their planet, one would think. It's all too bizarre.


Or perhaps you believe that one of "God's secrets" is that He created aliens and doesn't love them as much as Man? That God allows these "sinning aliens" to die in their sin?

Please explain. I'm all ears.

#35 nuttypiglet

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 03:37 PM

I'm not sure why you would want to link Aliens to sin, why would you do that. If entropy in the universe started after sin, which would have been around 6000 years ago according to estimates, there would be plenty of evidence of this for scientists to see. Personally I think entropy in the universe existed from the beginning, not through sin. The bible says there will be a new heavens and earth, the existing will be put away. If God knew Adam was going to sin before he created him, what's the point in making an eternal universe if you are going to scrap it. It's like when people ask me about the tree of life, and would Adam have lived forever if he didn't sin. This is a silly question because Adam did sin, and it was known before his creation that he would sin. It was known when Adam was an idea of Gods that he would fall and wouldn't be living forever on this planet. To me, the intelligent design wasn't man, it was the plan put into place before Adam was created, to save him and everyone after.

#36 Teejay

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 03:59 PM

Hello all,

Here's my take on this--for what it's worth.

My last assignment in the military was in the National Military Command Center (NMCC) in the Pentagon. I was the senior NCO on duty when I worked there. I don't know if any of you are old enough to remember the "Blue Book" that was supposedly kept in the Pentagon that took reports of UFO's from civilians and military sources in the U.S. and abroad. At night, these calls were diverted from the Blue Book office to the command post where I worked. I supervised the man who took the calls (a military steno) and sometimes I took the calls myself if he needed a respite.

The calls ranged from credible sources to drunks who had imbibled too much alcohol. One particular report sticks in my memory. My steno was on break, and I received a call from some rancher in Montana (I think?) who said there was a UFO on his land and he was heading out with his Winchester rifle to take a shot at it. I immediately cautioned him: "Sir, stop! Before you do that you might want to consider one important thing." "What should I consider" he asked. I told him that the UFO may shoot back. There was silence on the phone and he hung up.

Now the reason I tell this is that at that time (the 60's) there were many of these UFO paperbacks being sold at news stands documenting that on such and such a date, at such and such a time, this abduction or sighting was reported to the Pentagon Blue Book office. But I knew that what they claimed in that paperback did not happen. It was fictional sensationalism to sell books.

I live on 100 acres on a cattle ranch in Texas. One night my wife and I came home and I got out of my car to open my gate. My wife screamed at me, "Look." Over the trees came a UFO. It was circular in shape, and light were going around it flashing. It was moving about 40 knots and at about 1,000 feet altitude. I ran across the pasture to get under it to see if it was a helicopter or a baloon with outrigging of lights. As I sped off, my wife was shouting at me that I would be abducted. I got under it, and it was a solid shape and there was no outrigging. It crossed my land and disappeared over the trees. I called the sheriff and he said that he had received many calls on it and was investigating. What was it? I have no explanation. My wife told me that the reason I did not get abducted was that those aliens did not want a crazy man like me to experiment on.

Do I believe in alien spacecraft? Of course. How else would the aliens get here? Students of logic will recognize this as circular reasoning. Do I believe in aliens and space visitors? No. I think there are explanations for what people see--everything from phenomonons to black technology that we do not know of or can explain. After reading the Bible and watching "The privileged planet," i do not believe in aliens. But I'm pretty much of a pragmatic realists.

TeeJay

#37 Remnant of The Abyss

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 06:06 PM

I'm not sure why you would want to link Aliens to sin, why would you do that.


I'm not. Like I said, I don't believe in aliens. But if you believe in aliens, and you believe they are "sinless" then the are on par with God, LIKE God, being sinless, perfect. This is a fact. This would mean that they are "little Gods". So basically, to believe they are sinless means that by default one is polytheistic.

#38 Remnant of The Abyss

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 06:21 PM

What was it? I have no explanation. My wife told me that the reason I did not get abducted was that those aliens did not want a crazy man like me to experiment on.

Do I believe in alien spacecraft? Of course. How else would the aliens get here? Students of logic will recognize this as circular reasoning. Do I believe in aliens and space visitors? No. I think there are explanations for what people see--everything from phenomonons to black technology that we do not know of or can explain. After reading the Bible and watching "The privileged planet," i do not believe in aliens. But I'm pretty much of a pragmatic realists.

TeeJay



I saw a UFO back when I was in college. It was around 10 PM on a rural road in Pennsylvania. My buddy and I both saw it. We saw a bright light in the sky. It was small and appeared fixed, not moving, above the tree line at about a ten o'clock position. It stayed there for about a half minute. It looked odd as I found that even though I was driving I kept staring at it. Then all of a sudden it darted to the right and disappeared to the two o'clock position over another tree line. It did this in less than 1 second. My friend and I panicked. Our discussion was like out of a movie "Did you see that?" He didn't even want to talk about it. When we got back to the dorm I called the authorities and reported it. Nothing on earth travels as fast, or accelerates as fast as what I saw that night. Nothing. It appeared to accelerate many miles in under 1 second.

Do I believe in UFO's? Only so much as I believe they are demons, angels of light. Even Jimmy Carter reports seeing a UFO when he was in the Navy. Big deal, lots of people have seen unexplained phenomena. It doesn't mean that aliens exist.

#39 gilbo12345

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 06:24 PM

I'm not. Like I said, I don't believe in aliens. But if you believe in aliens, and you believe they are "sinless" then the are on par with God, LIKE God, being sinless, perfect. This is a fact. This would mean that they are "little Gods". So basically, to believe they are sinless means that by default one is polytheistic.


Totally wrong since you are equating sinlessness = God.. There are many other qualities that constitutes God, omni-present, omni-scient and all powerful.

God can may well have created beings that are 100% obedient and thus by definition are sinless.

Who are you to claim otherwise? As I said absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


New International Version (©1984)
The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law.

New Living Translation (©2007)
"The LORD our God has secrets known to no one. We are not accountable for them, but we and our children are accountable forever for all that he has revealed to us, so that we may obey all the terms of these instructions.

English Standard Version (©2001)
“The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.


This IS in the Bible and it makes clear that there are things that we do not know and that are not shown to us by God.. Hence claiming 'if its not in the Bible its not true' is absolutely false since not everything is in the Bible to begin with, only those things God has deemed that we need to know. Therefore, (as I said before), we cannot say eitherway it is unknowable, (unless we had a direct visitation ;) )

Therefore if there was a need for redemption for these other beings it certainly wouldn't be claimed in the Bible, (as I said), the Bible is focused on Earth... Aliens from another world are not from Earth hence are not relevent to the Bible and thus are grounds for why its not included.

#40 Teejay

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 02:51 AM

[quote] name='Remnant of The Abyss' timestamp='1332724911' post='82421']
I saw a UFO back when I was in college. It was around 10 PM on a rural road in Pennsylvania. My buddy and I both saw it. We saw a bright light in the sky. It was small and appeared fixed, not moving, above the tree line at about a ten o'clock position. It stayed there for about a half minute. It looked odd as I found that even though I was driving I kept staring at it. Then all of a sudden it darted to the right and disappeared to the two o'clock position over another tree line. It did this in less than 1 second. My friend and I panicked. Our discussion was like out of a movie "Did you see that?" He didn't even want to talk about it. When we got back to the dorm I called the authorities and reported it. Nothing on earth travels as fast, or accelerates as fast as what I saw that night. Nothing. It appeared to accelerate many miles in under 1 second.

Do I believe in UFO's? Only so much as I believe they are demons, angels of light. Even Jimmy Carter reports seeing a UFO when he was in the Navy. Big deal, lots of people have seen unexplained phenomena. It doesn't mean that aliens exist.
[/quote]

RoTA,

I would like to relate an interesting story that may explain some of the sightings that are reported. My colonel and I were driving across Texas at about 0200 hours. The colonel was familiar with the area. When we got outside of Dallas, he asked me if I wanted to see a UFO. I said sure. We looked to the left and off in the distance, there was a round craft with lights rotating around its outer edge. And it was ground level. As we drove, the craft lifted off the ground. He then started laughing at me. He explained that when we first saw it, the terrain made it appear that it was ground level as we could just see the top of it. As we drove, the terrain lowered and this made it appear that the craft was rising from the ground. And then I god a further glimpse and it was a water tower. My colonel, who flew B-52's said that the first time that happened to him, he flipped out.

TeeJay




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