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Proof Of An Intelligent Uncaused Cause - God


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#261 jonas5877

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 05:06 AM

He was given sufficient evidence that what he was told was the truth and he doesn't care. And yes, he will be in hell some day if he doesn't repent. Jesus Christ said so...as it is with all impenitent sinners.

What?!! I concede that you believe what you are saying is true. However, what have you produced to show me that it is true? How do I tell that what you are telling me about those "miracles" is anything more than your perception on what happened? You could have been hallucinating each time for all I know.
I'm not trying to insult you but all you have produced is electronic words on an internet forum. Why should I believe your words at face value when you disbelieve me at every turn? What makes your words more believable to an uncommitted person than my words? Saying "because they are the truth" is meaningless. Satan himself can say that...it's just words. What have you got in the way of evidence that I can reasonably evaluate?
Maybe those six words?

#262 gilbo12345

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 05:36 AM

What?!! I concede that you believe what you are saying is true. However, what have you produced to show me that it is true? How do I tell that what you are telling me about those "miracles" is anything more than your perception on what happened? You could have been hallucinating each time for all I know. I'm not trying to insult you but all you have produced is electronic words on an internet forum. Why should I believe your words at face value when you disbelieve me at every turn? What makes your words more believable to an uncommitted person than my words? Saying "because they are the truth" is meaningless. Satan himself can say that...it's just words. What have you got in the way of evidence that I can reasonably evaluate? Maybe those six words?


Perhaps ask Calypsis to recall some of the events, if you see what transpired then it would help to understand what Calypsis is saying.


For example I have my own event which I like to recall to others.

Back when I was a full-on Christian, I went to a youth camp. I was discussing how I felt that "the big guy" (my name for God at that time), helps me to be lucky sometimes. The leader felt I was wrong.

10 minutes later we were playing a card game called cheat. In this game the deck is divided by the number of players (at this time there were 8 I think). The first person places all their aces face down, the next person twos and so on. If a player doesn't have the right cards he / she can cheat by using other numbers instead, however if the player is caught out by another player he / she picks up all the cards that have been placed, if the person wasn't cheating then the accuser picks the cards up.

Now we played two games and I was pissing myself laughing since I had every number card I needed to put down, I didn't cheat once for the entire two games, note that this occured straight after my chat with how I thought that God helps me out and makes me lucky :D

Whilst its not a miracle in the sense of healing another, I think it was one of God expressing his presence to me.



#263 jonas5877

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 06:17 AM

Perhaps ask Calypsis to recall some of the events, if you see what transpired then it would help to understand what Calypsis is saying. For example I have my own event which I like to recall to others. Back when I was a full-on Christian, I went to a youth camp. I was discussing how I felt that "the big guy" (my name for God at that time), helps me to be lucky sometimes. The leader felt I was wrong. 10 minutes later we were playing a card game called cheat. In this game the deck is divided by the number of players (at this time there were 8 I think). The first person places all their aces face down, the next person twos and so on. If a player doesn't have the right cards he / she can cheat by using other numbers instead, however if the player is caught out by another player he / she picks up all the cards that have been placed, if the person wasn't cheating then the accuser picks the cards up. Now we played two games and I was pissing myself laughing since I had every number card I needed to put down, I didn't cheat once for the entire two games, note that this occured straight after my chat with how I thought that God helps me out and makes me lucky :D/>/> Whilst its not a miracle in the sense of healing another, I think it was one of God expressing his presence to me.

While yours is an incredible story, that is all it is to me. It is no more true than any other conversation on the internet. I could say that my father was the owner of a successful car dealership and you would probably believe it. However, if I said that my father could levitate and had visited Mars, you might be skeptical. Neither story is true. If you had not put God doing miracles into your story, I might say that was an nice streak of luck. But now that the claim of "miracle" is put into the story, the burden of proof is more weighty, just like with the story of my father levitating himself to Mars. Calypsis has miracles happen to him all the time, by his accounting. Has he never been able to supply some verifiable evidence of these miracles? The person had lukemia? Where is the diagnosis...the medical records? Why aren't these things being thrown in the face of people like James Randi to show that the supernatural exists? 1 million dollars is a pretty good incentive to produce evidence of a past miracle. Yet no one shows up with that evidence. Bottom line...."Blah-blah-blah happened and it's a miracle", is not very convincing to someone who doesn't already believe and is not very credulous.

#264 Bond007

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 07:35 AM

Jonas5877



Its likely impossible to 'accept' this if one is an atheist and so salvage myths are made up ( ie 'they are in a psychological trance' or some other pseudononsense).

#265 Calypsis4

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 07:38 AM

Perhaps ask Calypsis to recall some of the events, if you see what transpired then it would help to understand what Calypsis is saying. For example I have my own event which I like to recall to others. Back when I was a full-on Christian, I went to a youth camp. I was discussing how I felt that "the big guy" (my name for God at that time), helps me to be lucky sometimes. The leader felt I was wrong. 10 minutes later we were playing a card game called cheat. In this game the deck is divided by the number of players (at this time there were 8 I think). The first person places all their aces face down, the next person twos and so on. If a player doesn't have the right cards he / she can cheat by using other numbers instead, however if the player is caught out by another player he / she picks up all the cards that have been placed, if the person wasn't cheating then the accuser picks the cards up. Now we played two games and I was pissing myself laughing since I had every number card I needed to put down, I didn't cheat once for the entire two games, note that this occured straight after my chat with how I thought that God helps me out and makes me lucky :D/> Whilst its not a miracle in the sense of healing another, I think it was one of God expressing his presence to me.


We did a similar thing with the psychic in London a few years ago. The difference being that she was honest and willing to serve the Lord, Jonas is not willing. So it isnt' going to happen. We also came across a school teacher from California named Terry Lynn _________ who, after seeing what the Lord had done to answer her questions, gave her life to Christ and it saved her marriage and family. But like the psychic she had an honest heart and responded to what she was told. Jonas has already been given documented information about those who were resurrected from the dead and the means to verify it but he deliberately turned his nose up to it and rejected those incidences as false. Much worse, he dissed the most important event in the history of the world, the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead....failing to grasp that Christianity would not even exist in our time if He had not lived up to His word to His followers. That is going to cost him dearly.

Quite frankly, Gildbo, he doesn't deserve anything better.

#266 Calypsis4

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 07:38 AM

Jonas5877 Its likely impossible to 'accept' this if one is an atheist and so salvage myths are made up ( ie 'they are in a psychological trance' or some other pseudononsense).


I do not believe Benny Hinn is using God's power.

#267 Salsa

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 07:49 AM

Perhaps ask Calypsis to recall some of the events, if you see what transpired then it would help to understand what Calypsis is saying. For example I have my own event which I like to recall to others. Back when I was a full-on Christian, I went to a youth camp. I was discussing how I felt that "the big guy" (my name for God at that time), helps me to be lucky sometimes. The leader felt I was wrong. 10 minutes later we were playing a card game called cheat. In this game the deck is divided by the number of players (at this time there were 8 I think). The first person places all their aces face down, the next person twos and so on. If a player doesn't have the right cards he / she can cheat by using other numbers instead, however if the player is caught out by another player he / she picks up all the cards that have been placed, if the person wasn't cheating then the accuser picks the cards up. Now we played two games and I was pissing myself laughing since I had every number card I needed to put down, I didn't cheat once for the entire two games, note that this occured straight after my chat with how I thought that God helps me out and makes me lucky :D/> Whilst its not a miracle in the sense of healing another, I think it was one of God expressing his presence to me.


I've had that kind of thing happen to me too. And when it happens time and time again you know that it just cannot be a coincidence. As far as "halucinating" is concerned, that would only apply in isolated situations where you see something that you interpret as a vision or something like that. The things that I have experienced were never like that.

Anyway, I have to be careful about this, because anthing you say can be taken the wrong way. So I want to say once again. God rarely does miracles to prove his existance to unbelievers. Rather he does them primarily to validate himself to believers so that they learn to identify his voice. He then leaves it up to unbelievers to believe in the testimony of believers, which I think Jonas has done to a certain degree.

One of the commandments teaches us not to test God. I think this kind of testing has a context in which someone is demanding that God show himself, in order that he believe. However, there is a context in which testing God is permitted. In fact, in Malachi 3 God actually encourages the Jews to test him.

I want to give an example here, but not without a warning. Don't try this at home kiddies, it is almost guaranteed not to work because it is not a party trick. God speaks to us in different, individual ways and this is just the way he spoke to me, a young guy who had tons of problems with Christainity, since I was brought up to believe in demonic doctrines which go way beyond everyday skepticism. I think God had compassion on me because I had been fed these doctrines from childbirth.

One thing that my mother told me was the she would often flip open the Bible and put her finger on a random verse. She did this to get a "message" from the other side - not from God, but from "deceased spirits".

There were many things that all happened within a short period of time that collectively served to turn my entire life upside-down, and so I don't have time to go into all the details, but one of those things happened during a period of my life when I felt desparate to get answers about God. I happened to have a Bible in my room and decided to do what my mother did, and see if I would get a message.

Boy, did I ever get a message. Not once, but every single time. The fact is that no matter what verse I picked out I just knew that God was speaking directly to me. The verses always seemed to describe something in my life that i could concretely identify with.

I did this daily for a few days, and even though I didn't really want to become a Christian, it happened so often that I just didn't know what to do. I felt pretty miserable, so that day I bought a half a dozen cans of beer, and after drinking them the plan was to go to some pub in town and get really drunk. But just before I was about to open the first can I thought about these "messages" I thought I was reading. But was I really sure? Maybe they were just a string of coincidences. These thing happen. But anyway, that's when I decided to put it to the test. I said to God, if you don't want me to get myself drunk tonight then give me a message right now.

The funny thing was that this particular bible was an older and rarer swedish translation that, as far as I have been able to see, does not have this verse worded in this way in any other translation. What the verse said was this:

"Sober up, and sin no more"

Now, I can see how an atheist would scoff at this, but this was only the start of it. Things like this were happening over and over again. At the same time my girlfriend (my wife now), with whom I had a very bad relationship, was away for about a week. The day she was to come home, I was ready to give up. She was coming over and I was going to tell her that I was going to change. I was going to turn a new leaf and be a whole new person. That was what I was going to tell her as soon as she opened the door.

When she did open the door, I immediately saw that it wasn't me who had changed. It was her. It was almost as though an angel had come to visit me. He whole face lit up and she was so happy that I hardly recognized her. The fact is that during the exact time God was speaking to me and turning my life around, he was doing the same thing with her in a completely different place.

Even though she was brought up in a christian home, she was really quite backslidden and did not live as a Christian. I was constantly trying her to turn her back on her outdated faith and actually almost succeeded in doing so because she couldn't even tell me what being a Christian was all about. Now she walks in and tells me that she had attended a Christian seminar that whole week where they taught her the basics. They also taught her about prayer, and so a few of them got into a ring and started praying for me - at the exact time all these things were happening to me. Coincidence?

It didn't end there either. I was amazed at how she was so filled with joy and was praying for things and getting concrete answers. This brings me to the part where I played chess with God (kind of).. and lost! Who would have thought that? Posted Image

I used to play quite a lot of chess when I was younger and was pretty good at it (if I say so myself). Whenever I felt that the game wasn't going well, all I had to do was to focus a little and then I would usually always win. For lack of a better opponent, I sometimes played against my girlfriend. She was pretty worthless (sorry honey), but I was bored and there was no one else around. Playing against her never required any extra focus, she never beat me. I could read a book or watch the tv at the same time and still win.

All our games ususally ended in the same way. I would win, she would get frustrated and I would end up sitting in a shower of chesspieces that went flying through the air.

But this time I recognized the same voice that spoke to me when I read the Bible verses say to me, "she is now so filled with my Spirit you will not be able to win". Now I know that skeptics would just say that this thought somehow impaired my ability to think, but I know what my frame of mind was. I was focused from the very start of the game and was thinking clearly.

Despite that, as much as I tried, I could not find a good move during the entire game. I felt I was locked on every side and just couldn't get anything to work. My girlfriend on the other hand had no idea what she was doing. In the end I had to tell her that she had won, because she mated me without having a clue that she did.

But it didn't end there.

Other things happened that can hardly be chalked up as hallucinations. For example, one day when I was lying on the couch I started feeling a great comfort flowing through my head. It was the sort of thing that happened to me every now and then, but this time I somehow realized that someone must be praying for me. No sooner did I think that thought when the phone started ringing. When I pick up I heard my mother-in-law's voice. She didn't even say hello, which she always normally always did. She just said "Did you feel me praying for you"?

Coincidence? A hallucination that involved two people? Hmm..

And actually, I didn't mention it to Jonas but the other day when I was writing to him I had another one of these "coincidences". I was having a discussion with him about faith and works and about how God prepares good deeds for us "in advance" that we can do. I took a break in the middle of that post and went into town and was making my way though all the Christmas shoppers hurrying back and forth. As I was walking along and thinking about what I had written to Jonas I was wondering about this very thing. What would God have me do today?

Perhaps I could give what I have in my pocket to help some needy person, and so I said to God "If you want me to do so then someone here will ask me for money, right now!". All I could see were people rushing to and fro with the exception of one woman who stood outside a chemist store and although she didn't look like she needed money I thought "what about her?". Believe it or not, as I was walking past her she asked me if I could give her any money.

But I guess she was a hallucination too..

But I could go on and on.. (as you probably have noticed).
It makes you wonder how many hallucinations and coincidences one guy can take.. Posted Image

#268 jonas5877

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 01:19 PM

We did a similar thing with the psychic in London a few years ago. The difference being that she was honest and willing to serve the Lord, Jonas is not willing. So it isnt' going to happen. We also came across a school teacher from California named Terry Lynn _________ who, after seeing what the Lord had done to answer her questions, gave her life to Christ and it saved her marriage and family. But like the psychic she had an honest heart and responded to what she was told. Jonas has already been given documented information about those who were resurrected from the dead and the means to verify it but he deliberately turned his nose up to it and rejected those incidences as false. Much worse, he dissed the most important event in the history of the world, the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead....failing to grasp that Christianity would not even exist in our time if He had not lived up to His word to His followers. That is going to cost him dearly. Quite frankly, Gildbo, he doesn't deserve anything better.


I didn't turn up my nose at them. I researched them and found them wanting.

If the fact that Christianity still exists means that God lived up to His word to His followers, then does the fact that Hinduism (an older religion) exists mean that their gods lived up to their word?
Why or why not?

If you read your Bible you will find out that you don't deserve what God has given you either. Your Bible states that God extends His Grace to all, yet you want to withhold that Grace from me by not even trying to find out if God will give you those six words.

BTW, Your claim that I am dishonest did not go unnoticed.

#269 jonas5877

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 01:24 PM

I do not believe Benny Hinn is using God's power.

Now that's something we agree on. I thought Benny Hinn was a charlatan when I was a Christian.

#270 jonas5877

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 01:40 PM

I've had that kind of thing happen to me too. And when it happens time and time again you know that it just cannot be a coincidence. As far as "halucinating" is concerned, that would only apply in isolated situations where you see something that you interpret as a vision or something like that. The things that I have experienced were never like that. Anyway, I have to be careful about this, because anthing you say can be taken the wrong way. So I want to say once again. God rarely does miracles to prove his existance to unbelievers. Rather he does them primarily to validate himself to believers so that they learn to identify his voice. He then leaves it up to unbelievers to believe in the testimony of believers, which I think Jonas has done to a certain degree. One of the commandments teaches us not to test God. I think this kind of testing has a context in which someone is demanding that God show himself, in order that he believe. However, there is a context in which testing God is permitted. In fact, in Malachi 3 God actually encourages the Jews to test him. I want to give an example here, but not without a warning. Don't try this at home kiddies, it is almost guaranteed not to work because it is not a party trick. God speaks to us in different, individual ways and this is just the way he spoke to me, a young guy who had tons of problems with Christainity, since I was brought up to believe in demonic doctrines which go way beyond everyday skepticism. I think God had compassion on me because I had been fed these doctrines from childbirth. One thing that my mother told me was the she would often flip open the Bible and put her finger on a random verse. She did this to get a "message" from the other side - not from God, but from "deceased spirits". There were many things that all happened within a short period of time that collectively served to turn my entire life upside-down, and so I don't have time to go into all the details, but one of those things happened during a period of my life when I felt desparate to get answers about God. I happened to have a Bible in my room and decided to do what my mother did, and see if I would get a message. Boy, did I ever get a message. Not once, but every single time. The fact is that no matter what verse I picked out I just knew that God was speaking directly to me. The verses always seemed to describe something in my life that i could concretely identify with. I did this daily for a few days, and even though I didn't really want to become a Christian, it happened so often that I just didn't know what to do. I felt pretty miserable, so that day I bought a half a dozen cans of beer, and after drinking them the plan was to go to some pub in town and get really drunk. But just before I was about to open the first can I thought about these "messages" I thought I was reading. But was I really sure? Maybe they were just a string of coincidences. These thing happen. But anyway, that's when I decided to put it to the test. I said to God, if you don't want me to get myself drunk tonight then give me a message right now. The funny thing was that this particular bible was an older and rarer swedish translation that, as far as I have been able to see, does not have this verse worded in this way in any other translation. What the verse said was this: "Sober up, and sin no more" Now, I can see how an atheist would scoff at this, but this was only the start of it. Things like this were happening over and over again. At the same time my girlfriend (my wife now), with whom I had a very bad relationship, was away for about a week. The day she was to come home, I was ready to give up. She was coming over and I was going to tell her that I was going to change. I was going to turn a new leaf and be a whole new person. That was what I was going to tell her as soon as she opened the door. When she did open the door, I immediately saw that it wasn't me who had changed. It was her. It was almost as though an angel had come to visit me. He whole face lit up and she was so happy that I hardly recognized her. The fact is that during the exact time God was speaking to me and turning my life around, he was doing the same thing with her in a completely different place. Even though she was brought up in a christian home, she was really quite backslidden and did not live as a Christian. I was constantly trying her to turn her back on her outdated faith and actually almost succeeded in doing so because she couldn't even tell me what being a Christian was all about. Now she walks in and tells me that she had attended a Christian seminar that whole week where they taught her the basics. They also taught her about prayer, and so a few of them got into a ring and started praying for me - at the exact time all these things were happening to me. Coincidence? It didn't end there either. I was amazed at how she was so filled with joy and was praying for things and getting concrete answers. This brings me to the part where I played chess with God (kind of).. and lost! Who would have thought that? Posted Image I used to play quite a lot of chess when I was younger and was pretty good at it (if I say so myself). Whenever I felt that the game wasn't going well, all I had to do was to focus a little and then I would usually always win. For lack of a better opponent, I sometimes played against my girlfriend. She was pretty worthless (sorry honey), but I was bored and there was no one else around. Playing against her never required any extra focus, she never beat me. I could read a book or watch the tv at the same time and still win. All our games ususally ended in the same way. I would win, she would get frustrated and I would end up sitting in a shower of chesspieces that went flying through the air. But this time I recognized the same voice that spoke to me when I read the Bible verses say to me, "she is now so filled with my Spirit you will not be able to win". Now I know that skeptics would just say that this thought somehow impaired my ability to think, but I know what my frame of mind was. I was focused from the very start of the game and was thinking clearly. Despite that, as much as I tried, I could not find a good move during the entire game. I felt I was locked on every side and just couldn't get anything to work. My girlfriend on the other hand had no idea what she was doing. In the end I had to tell her that she had won, because she mated me without having a clue that she did. But it didn't end there. Other things happened that can hardly be chalked up as hallucinations. For example, one day when I was lying on the couch I started feeling a great comfort flowing through my head. It was the sort of thing that happened to me every now and then, but this time I somehow realized that someone must be praying for me. No sooner did I think that thought when the phone started ringing. When I pick up I heard my mother-in-law's voice. She didn't even say hello, which she always normally always did. She just said "Did you feel me praying for you"? Coincidence? A hallucination that involved two people? Hmm.. And actually, I didn't mention it to Jonas but the other day when I was writing to him I had another one of these "coincidences". I was having a discussion with him about faith and works and about how God prepares good deeds for us "in advance" that we can do. I took a break in the middle of that post and went into town and was making my way though all the Christmas shoppers hurrying back and forth. As I was walking along and thinking about what I had written to Jonas I was wondering about this very thing. What would God have me do today? Perhaps I could give what I have in my pocket to help some needy person, and so I said to God "If you want me to do so then someone here will ask me for money, right now!". All I could see were people rushing to and fro with the exception of one woman who stood outside a chemist store and although she didn't look like she needed money I thought "what about her?". Believe it or not, as I was walking past her she asked me if I could give her any money. But I guess she was a hallucination too.. But I could go on and on.. (as you probably have noticed). It makes you wonder how many hallucinations and coincidences one guy can take.. Posted Image

So despite your claim that God doesn't do miracles to show himself to unbelievers, you tell of your own experience where God shows Himself to you before you were His follower. I assume you didn't think then that God was who you believe Him to be now.
I understand that you believe these other occurances were to build up your faith but the first one was to help you accept Him. Why are you special and I am not?

I am not saying that all those "miracles" are not miracles from God. I am saying that I only have your word that those things even happened. Your assessment of the nature of those occurrances is not shown to be correct just because you believe it to be true. Your belief that they are miracles is not even the point. The fact that you cannot show them to be miracles is the point. Your say so doesn't mean anything.
If you were to go into a courtroom and make these testamonies but produce no more evidence than you have given me, I guarantee that no judge or jury would declare that there was enough evidence to say that a miracle had occurred beyond a reasonable doubt. So, why should I accept your claims of the miraculous when I have never experienced it in all the time I was a believer or since I gave it up?

#271 Salsa

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 11:46 PM

So despite your claim that God doesn't do miracles to show himself to unbelievers, you tell of your own experience where God shows Himself to you before you were His follower. I assume you didn't think then that God was who you believe Him to be now.
I understand that you believe these other occurances were to build up your faith but the first one was to help you accept Him. Why are you special and I am not?


Jonas, it is obvious that you are looking hard through these posts with the intention to find faults, which is ok to a certain degree until you end up straining gnats and swallowing camels. You are taking what I said about miracles and taking it too literally. I have only discussed a general pattern that I have noticed, but there are always exceptions to the rule when it comes to conversion. The apostle Paul's conversion for one well-known example.

"Seek and you shall find" is also well-known, and I think it applies both positively and negatively. If you spend too much time engaged in fault-finding then that is all you will ever get. You will be "always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth" 2 Tim 3:7

Furthermore, you need to understand the difference between the frame of mind you have now, and the frame of mind I had then. When I picked up the bible back then I wasn't trying to find faults with it. I believed what my mother taught me about it. She said the Bible was a "vibration" and that although at the time it was written it was God's word, hundreds and hundreds of translations had basically destroyed most of the original message.

So when I picked up the Bible it was with the idea in mind that maybe, maybe, somewhere burried deep in the text I could tap into a remnant of the truth. I earnestly wanted to know the truth, but more importantly I was turning my heart to God - not with the mindset of a critic, skeptic or fault-finder, but with the mindset of a believer - because I did actually believe in God, and that God had the ability to speak through his word.

I am not saying that all those "miracles" are not miracles from God. I am saying that I only have your word that those things even happened. Your assessment of the nature of those occurrances is not shown to be correct just because you believe it to be true. Your belief that they are miracles is not even the point. The fact that you cannot show them to be miracles is the point. Your say so doesn't mean anything.
If you were to go into a courtroom and make these testamonies but produce no more evidence than you have given me, I guarantee that no judge or jury would declare that there was enough evidence to say that a miracle had occurred beyond a reasonable doubt. So, why should I accept your claims of the miraculous when I have never experienced it in all the time I was a believer or since I gave it up?


Who said I was trying to prove anything? Who said I was trying to win any case in court? You see, this is the very reason I have been reluctant to speak about these things. I testify to some of the things that I have experienced as a Christian. Whether someone rejects what I say is not my problem. Such things are inevitable. People who set their minds to reject testimony will reject it, those who chose to listen and accept what they hear, not simply on the basis of human "words", but also on the testimony that God gives, will enter through the narrow gate.

I went through that gate, and I found God. That is my testimony. Do with it what you will...

#272 jonas5877

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 06:48 AM

Jonas, it is obvious that you are looking hard through these posts with the intention to find faults, which is ok to a certain degree until you end up straining gnats and swallowing camels. You are taking what I said about miracles and taking it too literally. I have only discussed a general pattern that I have noticed, but there are always exceptions to the rule when it comes to conversion. The apostle Paul's conversion for one well-known example. "Seek and you shall find" is also well-known, and I think it applies both positively and negatively. If you spend too much time engaged in fault-finding then that is all you will ever get. You will be "always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth" 2 Tim 3:7 Furthermore, you need to understand the difference between the frame of mind you have now, and the frame of mind I had then. When I picked up the bible back then I wasn't trying to find faults with it. I believed what my mother taught me about it. She said the Bible was a "vibration" and that although at the time it was written it was God's word, hundreds and hundreds of translations had basically destroyed most of the original message. So when I picked up the Bible it was with the idea in mind that maybe, maybe, somewhere burried deep in the text I could tap into a remnant of the truth. I earnestly wanted to know the truth, but more importantly I was turning my heart to God - not with the mindset of a critic, skeptic or fault-finder, but with the mindset of a believer - because I did actually believe in God, and that God had the ability to speak through his word.

Perhaps you are unaware that I too believed. I spent 4 years on my road from unquestioning believer to disbeliever and in that I sought God through His word. That road started with my belief that I needed to conform my life to that of Christ's more than I had in the previous 15 years of my Christian life. The more I sought God and studied the Bible, the more remote God seemed to be. Things I never questioned before became the focus of my studies. I could not reconcile things in the Bible with the claims of the pastor of my church, so I sought other pastors and asked them questions....which they failed to address directly and, ultimately, did not reconcile the contradictions. I wrote the the big names in the U.S. Christian movement, asking many questions, some of which they helped me understand. However, in the end, they all wound up telling me to simply believe despite what I was reading in the Bible. I was called a hard-hearted skeptic long before I gave up my faith in your God, but all I wanted was to understand what God wanted me to become. The Christian God never said and I suspect that is because you can't get something from nothing.


Who said I was trying to prove anything? Who said I was trying to win any case in court? You see, this is the very reason I have been reluctant to speak about these things. I testify to some of the things that I have experienced as a Christian. Whether someone rejects what I say is not my problem. Such things are inevitable. People who set their minds to reject testimony will reject it, those who chose to listen and accept what they hear, not simply on the basis of human "words", but also on the testimony that God gives, will enter through the narrow gate. I went through that gate, and I found God. That is my testimony. Do with it what you will...

You responded to my conversation with Calypsis4 in which he claimed, and so far has failed to do, that he could prove that miracles occur. Specifically, he said that he could show me his documented experience with all-powerful beings. You know the rest...poorly documented claims of miracles....stories without evidence.
I said that he had poor to no evidence. You produced your testamony. I assumed that was also to show that you have documented experience with an all-powerful being. I didn't know that your post was not supposed to be related to the conversation between Calypsis4 and me.
Why does the Bible say that Satan will be defeated by the power of your testamony, it the only place it seems to have power is with other believers? So what? That happens with all religions. Hindu testamony has power in the Hindu believers. Muslim testamony has power in a group of Islamists. If your God's power is only seen by those that believe in Him, what good is it doing toward saving the world? What's the point?

#273 Calypsis4

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 07:21 AM

No, he didn't. I don't believe this fellow was ever a true Christian. Had he truly felt the touch of God upon his heart he would never even have considered quitting on that same God.

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." I John 2:9

#274 jonas5877

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 07:41 AM

No, he didn't. I don't believe this fellow was ever a true Christian. Had he truly felt the touch of God upon his heart he would never even have considered quitting on that same God. "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." I John 2:9

Whether you believe it or not, I believed it. Do you think I did not pray, worship or try to live as Christ required? Do you think I didn't believe Jesus told me what to do? Are you saying that I am lying about my beliefs?

Can one believe they are saved and actually not be saved? If I believed I was a true Christian and was not, how would I know?

You say that you know because I turned away. What if I had not turned away? What if I had continued in my belief and died in that belief? Would I then be sent to Hell forever? What could save me if I already believed I was a follower of Christ but was not?

I guess you are right. You providing me the six words wouldn't help because even if I tried to be saved and believed completely in the Roman road to salvation, I would not know if I was saved or not.

Is your God a trickster that doesn't show people the correct path when they seek Him?

#275 Salsa

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:13 AM

Perhaps you are unaware that I too believed. I spent 4 years on my road from unquestioning believer to disbeliever and in that I sought God through His word. That road started with my belief that I needed to conform my life to that of Christ's more than I had in the previous 15 years of my Christian life. The more I sought God and studied the Bible, the more remote God seemed to be. Things I never questioned before became the focus of my studies. I could not reconcile things in the Bible with the claims of the pastor of my church, so I sought other pastors and asked them questions....which they failed to address directly and, ultimately, did not reconcile the contradictions. I wrote the the big names in the U.S. Christian movement, asking many questions, some of which they helped me understand. However, in the end, they all wound up telling me to simply believe despite what I was reading in the Bible. I was called a hard-hearted skeptic long before I gave up my faith in your God, but all I wanted was to understand what God wanted me to become. The Christian God never said and I suspect that is because you can't get something from nothing.


Of course, there is no way I can evaluate your personal experiences with any precision. I cannot look into your heart and see what your thoughts were at the time. All I can do is read your posts and make superficial judgements based on what you write, as well as share my own experiences and thoughts and struggle with the fact that you are also bound to make superficial judgements about what I say.

I have also been through some really rocky times when I felt that I wanted more from my Christian experience because despite these things that happened to me, 99% of life inevitably consists of work and worries as opposed to splitting the Red Sea and performing miraclous deeds. For quite a few years I also turned away from Christianity, but never entirely because I could not erase my own experiences, and I always knew in my heart that God had spoken to me.

The only power I have that doesn't exceed the measure of faith I have been given, is to testify and to point out what the Bible says. And what the Bible says in this matter is that any house that isn't built on the rock will eventually collapse. The forces that rage against Christian faith are strong, and without a firm foundation we simply don't stand a chance. That foundation is neither attending a church nor studying the Bible. It is having a personal relationship with Jesus - with or without miracles. Now as I said, I have no way of knowing whether you ever turned towards Jesus and invited him into your heart, but as far as I can tell, not enough people are actually doing that. The churches they attend simply perform services and rituals but neglect to teach the essentials.

Now I wish I had the insight that the prophet Daniel had when he revealed Nebuchadnezzars dream and could use that to reveal your six words, but I just don't have the prayer life that he did, and neither do I have the close relationship with the Lord that he did. But I do have some kind of relationship and it is my job to work on that relationship as much as I can if I have any hope to ride out the storms that are to come.

For all it's worth, I find it very unfortunate that you feel so disappointed with the Christian faith and the only thing I can say is that as long as you have the breath of life in you, then there is hope, for you do not know what the future might have in store for you. I hope and pray that some day you will also hear the voice of God and have a strong enough experience that it will grant you genuine faith - the faith that gives you power to overcome.

#276 jonas5877

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 12:20 PM

Of course, there is no way I can evaluate your personal experiences with any precision. I cannot look into your heart and see what your thoughts were at the time. All I can do is read your posts and make superficial judgements based on what you write, as well as share my own experiences and thoughts and struggle with the fact that you are also bound to make superficial judgements about what I say. I have also been through some really rocky times when I felt that I wanted more from my Christian experience because despite these things that happened to me, 99% of life inevitably consists of work and worries as opposed to splitting the Red Sea and performing miraclous deeds. For quite a few years I also turned away from Christianity, but never entirely because I could not erase my own experiences, and I always knew in my heart that God had spoken to me. The only power I have that doesn't exceed the measure of faith I have been given, is to testify and to point out what the Bible says. And what the Bible says in this matter is that any house that isn't built on the rock will eventually collapse. The forces that rage against Christian faith are strong, and without a firm foundation we simply don't stand a chance. That foundation is neither attending a church nor studying the Bible. It is having a personal relationship with Jesus - with or without miracles. Now as I said, I have no way of knowing whether you ever turned towards Jesus and invited him into your heart, but as far as I can tell, not enough people are actually doing that. The churches they attend simply perform services and rituals but neglect to teach the essentials. Now I wish I had the insight that the prophet Daniel had when he revealed Nebuchadnezzars dream and could use that to reveal your six words, but I just don't have the prayer life that he did, and neither do I have the close relationship with the Lord that he did. But I do have some kind of relationship and it is my job to work on that relationship as much as I can if I have any hope to ride out the storms that are to come. For all it's worth, I find it very unfortunate that you feel so disappointed with the Christian faith and the only thing I can say is that as long as you have the breath of life in you, then there is hope, for you do not know what the future might have in store for you. I hope and pray that some day you will also hear the voice of God and have a strong enough experience that it will grant you genuine faith - the faith that gives you power to overcome.

Thank you for your concern which appears heartfelt even though we do not hold the same beliefs.

#277 Calypsis4

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 12:53 PM

Uppsala: No, I don't believe him. Not for a second. Repeating what I said, "Had he truly felt the touch of God upon his heart he would never even have considered quitting on that same God." Again, "they were not of us..." the scriptures tell us.

It is scripture, God's Word that tells the truth, not apostates like Jonas. He was at best...a fair-weather-friend to God's Son.

#278 jonas5877

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 02:37 PM

Uppsala: No, I don't believe him. Not for a second. Repeating what I said, "Had he truly felt the touch of God upon his heart he would never even have considered quitting on that same God." Again, "they were not of us..." the scriptures tell us. It is scripture, God's Word that tells the truth, not apostates like Jonas. He was at best...a fair-weather-friend to God's Son.

Calling me a liar again? How about providing some kind of evidence before you throw around accusations.

Better yet, where's that documented evidence of the all powerful being that you could provide? Remember, stories on an internet forum are not considered evidence. Since you immediately claim that I am providing false information about my past, I will claim that you are providing false information about yours. I am not saying that you are lying...I'm sure you believe those were miracles....you're just incorrect in your assessment of your experiences.

1 John 2:9 says this: He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. Your out of context quote: 1 John 2:19 is followed later by 1 John 2:24
" As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father."
If a person could not truely believe and later turn away, why would John admonish followers to ensure that what they have heard remains in them?
Why would they need to make any effort?
Shouldn't the Holy Spirit make sure the belief stays with them, making John's recommendation completely unnecessary?


#279 Dig4gold

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 02:45 PM

I would like to go about this in another way. An eternal being would necessarily have to know the future. Is there proof of this foreknowledge in the Bible? I believe that it cannot be denied.


3 “I declared the former things long ago and they went forth from My mouth, and I proclaimed them. Suddenly I acted, and they came to pass. 4 “Because I know that you are [b]obstinate, and your neck is an iron sinew and your forehead bronze, 5 Therefore I declared them to you long ago, before [c]they took place I proclaimed them to you, So that you would not say, ‘My idol has done them, and my graven image and my molten image have commanded them.’ Isaiah 48:3-5

[c]But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. [d]His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity.” Micah 5:2

This of course was fulfilled when Yeshua was born in Bethlehem (Beit Lechem, i.e., house of bread).




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