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Question For Young-Earthers (For All The Marbles).

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#41 Dig4gold

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 01:17 PM

I Peter 3:20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the [p]water.


{emphasis mine} I Peter 3:20 NASB

#42 aelyn

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 01:51 AM

I believe that this article will enlighten all those who read it. Was the biblical account of Noah and the world wide flood just another story from the past? Was it accurate? Is there any evidence for this flood and the dispersal of one family to populate the earth? Read it and make informed choices for yourselves. http://creation.com/...andsons-of-noah

Why would a Welsh historian dramatically misspell the name of the Welsh language ? It's not even as if it was a phonetic spelling - an English phonetic spelling of the word would be more like "Cumraig" or "Gumraig" depending on the grammatical context.

#43 Salsa

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 03:13 AM

Why would a Welsh historian dramatically misspell the name of the Welsh language ?


Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch

That's Welsh for I dont' know.. but you've gotta admit Welsh sure is hard to spell. Posted Image

But seriosly the spelling "Gomeraeg" seems to be quite common (when doing a quick google search at least), and what significance does phonetics have? Words tend to change both spelling and phonetics over time.

#44 Calypsis4

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 11:39 AM

While you are chewing on the vast evidence of the true history of the various people groups that can be verified to descend from the lineage of Noah and his family here are some questions for those who doubt a world wide flood as opposed to a local flood during the time of Noah;

If the Flood was local, why did Noah have to build an Ark? He could have walked to the other side of the mountains and missed it.

If the Flood was local, why did God send the animals to the Ark so they would escape death? There would have been other animals to reproduce that kind if these particular ones had died.

If the Flood was local, why was the Ark big enough to hold all kinds of land vertebrate animals that have ever existed? If only Mesopotamian animals were aboard, the Ark could have been much smaller.

If the Flood was local, why would birds have been sent on board? These could simply have winged across to a nearby mountain range.

These questions come from this link: http://creation.com/...the-whole-earth


All very good points.

#45 Reptoman

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 07:55 AM

Response: Also I contend that erets in context is not the "whole world" but the known world of that area. Many good scholars agree with this view and do not accept a wwView with respect to erets...Having said that.


If the Flood was local, why did Noah have to build an Ark? He could have walked to the other side of the mountains and missed it.

Response:

God ordered him too, and he obeyed God. The local flood idea is not some trickle of water, but compared to the whole bio-sphere a Mesopotamian flood would have been huge. Evidence is that some cultures did not have any interruption in there historic writings? I believe in the Ark and the flood just as much as you or any other conservative Christian does.


If the Flood was local, why did God send the animals to the Ark so they would escape death? There would have been other animals to reproduce that kind if these particular ones had died.


I have brought this up over and over with no response: The language of the animals brought supernaturally seem to be localized animals? Also where did the Ark house the non-nephesh insect population (11,000,000 species just in the Amazon alone)? Was the Ark actually big enough to house all known Dinos, Mammoths Amphibians, and animals which we know the boi-sphere created by God had a much huger diversity? I am not questioning the ARK but did every known specie come to the Ark. Or was it localized animals from the mesopotamian region?


If the Flood was local, why was the Ark big enough to hold all kinds of land vertebrate animals that have ever existed? If only Mesopotamian animals were aboard, the Ark could have been much smaller.


Again God gave the orders. Actually even including local animals from the Mesopotamian region would have required a huge ARK. Now studies say the actual evidence of a Cubit is much shorter than once used in calculations. So actually the ark may have been much smaller. But huge.


If the Flood was local, why would birds have been sent on board? These could simply have winged across to a nearby mountain range.


You assume some small flood area. That was not the case. Also the birds that came aboard were common birds found in the area.


Lastly I have brought this up and you all reject this notion, but how do Symbiotic relationhsips live beyond the flood? HOw about after the flood and dispearsion. HOW does an amphibian live with out water and insects to eat, While I think its very probable that animals were put in hibernation or suspended animation, some animals and plants require certain environments in order to live? This is not about me questioning scripture as Calypsis has no answer and so has interpreted my responses as angry in order to paint a narrative about me, when he doesn't even know me. His ideas are just as acceptable as mine. But there is no scripture in the bible that gives us the age of the earth. Period. This is man's extrapolation of information from scripture, but even good Christians believe that some of these are incorrect and have been challenged by conservative Christians. Some believe in a gap type thing where the universe was created "before" the earth. ie Satans fall etc. It was his insistance that I have somehow messed with the bible and am a heretic, this is the ploy I hve found in many a creationists who don't like questions about their tidy package. I am honest enough as a Christian and a science person to know we don't have all the answers? I lean very heavily towards a young earth. But what is young? 7,000, 10,000 as many Christians have written about, what of Dino and Mammoth bones being C-14 and having ages of less than 50,000 years and contemporaries of one another including man? Do we just reject this new Christian information as not relevant? I believe in "the" flood as historic and Noah is a real person as well as his family. But how do we explain the Japanese, and Chinese cultures, and India Cultures that show no disruption in there written histories from a wwFlood destruction? What of the Australian aborigine found and known to be there for thousands and thousands of years. Just saying.



#46 Reptoman

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 08:22 AM

Local flood prespective....



Erets (Strong's #776) does not require a world wide flood? The word in the King James is translated earth throughout the flood account. It is also translated 140 times as country, land 1,476 times, most often referring to a limited land area, not the whole earth. The land where Noah lived was full of violence not the whole earth, Erets is used to describe the land, we know that the world populations were centered in the middle east for the most part, the whole world had not been populated.

10 of the highest mountains in the world are 26,000 feet or more tall. Ararat is 16,946. After a 40 days of rain, what mechanism would have accounted for enough water to cover the whole earth? If the rain covered the Whole earth, that would mean the average would be 5 miles deep??

Mt. Everest is 29, 028 ft high. A flood 15 cubits above this would be; 29,050 so it rained for 40 days and 40 nights, this would work out to 726 feet of rain per day, Thirty feet an hour, and six inches of rain per minute. An inch of rain every 10 seconds.... If this actually happened then our air we breath would have been cut off???
These figures worldwide would be something around 8,712 inches a day.....

The bible implies that the water receded 15 cubits a day for 74 days.... Figuring a cubit at 18”, it would have dropped 270 inches during that time or 4 inches a day....Given the height of Mt. Everest, it would take 87,150 days —that almost 239 years??? I believe this is compelling that the flood was indeed local.

There are many other issues with this as well, but one very convincing one outside of the flood is the bible itself. In Genesis 4 &5 it mentions two family lines that descended from Adam... The line which Noah was part Adam, Seth, Enosh down to Noah and his three sons, etc--- and the other line is Adam, Enoch, Irad, Mehujael down to Jabal, Jubal, and Tubal-cain.

We have a detailed account of Noah's family in Genesis 10. But what became of the other line??? Jabal, Jubal, and Tubal-cain? If you believe in a world wide flood then you must assume these were destroyed in the flood? Would you not? But this presents a problem because Noah writes of them still living during the time he wrote.?? Genesis 4:20-22, check this out.

The writer says these people dwell (not dwelled) in tents, they “have’ (not had) Cattle, they handle the harp (not handled)--if they all drowned in the flood then the Hebrew would be incorrect. Hastings encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics as well as the interpreters bible says that the wording implies an unbroken history of civilization, and the writer of of this section did not regard the flood as a “universal Deluge”. These descendents of Cain migrated east of Eden and populated areas different from Noah. Also after the flood, the descendents of Shem, Ham, And Jepath migrated and settled in various countries, “by these were the isles(coastlands) of the Gentiles divided in their lands, everyone after their tongue, after their families, in their nations...Genesis 10, 5, 32.??? This is right after the flood. If all were drowned but the eight how do we explain the existence of these nations...this of course makes one ask where did these blood lines come from if all were destroyed.?

Population centers mentioned by the Bible are also a problem? Ham became father of Cush, and Cush became Nimrod, he began to be the mighty one. All of this in less than 3 generations.... It says he went out to Assyria and built Nineveh (Genesis 10:8-12) IF the world was reduced to the eight how do have great population centers mentioned in Genesis 10 in 3 generations? In Genesis 15 one only looks at the travels of Abraham and the population centers that existed. Genesis 15 mentions 26 cities......

If you calculate Shem to Abraham, you’ll discover that I is 222 years and that is 4 centuries. If all was destroyed, how is that these many population centers that Abraham traveled to were already fully robust and in existence??? Where did all the animals to support such centers come from? See Genesis 11 for this information....

Lastly we know that the Ark landed on the Armenian mountains. These mountains were somewhere around 17,000 ft. Noah sent out his dove and she found no lace to rest her feet. The water had not abated. So 7 days later she is sent out and comes back with an olive branch. If the world was deluged above the highest mountains then in 10 days the water and subsided far enough down to where olive trees are known to grow, they could not exist on the mountains, these are trees of low lands. (Noah's Flood--Ralph Woodrow)

I have no agenda, but I have just given you a “reason” why I believe what I do, it is not just “mans knowledge” it is biblical and is there. I fully believe the Word is true and that the flood happened and is historical, but I also believe that rightly dividing the word of God, and some of the “claims” of a world wide flood has many issues to answer. Let the bible speak.... This position does not make anyone any less born again......there are a host of other issues about animal dispersal, animal symbiotic relationships with plants or other insects etc. and trees and jungles and plant dispersal, with in mans written history of 6,000 to 10,000 years..


Is this anti-creationist? Or are there questions here that need to be answered? There are good Christians that question the wwFlood on the basis of scripture? So now am I anathema because I ask for answers and allI get is lip and narratives on a personal basis calling me a heretic, Really? The article in Matthew in the link above? What about that article says a wwFlood? When Jesus comes, People will be eating and drinking as they did in the day of Noah? Isn't that what it says in context? Are you telling me that in context this is a wwFlood scripture? The people involved in the flood were wiped out. If erets is meaning the local area of known population as most of erets like 1,500 times per Strongs... I don't want to "argue" with anyone here. I am more about asking questions? I think there should be an open dialogue with in the pale of creationism, that takes on many different facets....cheers!




#47 Calypsis4

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 08:58 AM

To the rest of you: Would you like to see why I am now ignoring reptoman and his inane, unscriptural arguments for a local flood:

1. He said, "no scripture in the bible that gives us the age of the earth. Period"
You see, the chronologies and times given in scripture mean nothing to this person. Perhaps we should all conclude that Moses wasted his time giving those ages/times.

2. I challenged him strongly on the legitimacy of Christ's family lineage according to Luke in chapter 3 of his gospel. Has anyone seen a reply about this matter? I made the point that unless that family lineage is correct then Christ has no legal right to the throne of David as promised in Isaiah 9:6-7. And since only less than a dozen of those listed lived for longer than 500 yrs then the long ages he infers about the age of the earth is in error.

"This is not about me questioning scripture as Calypsis has no answer and so has interpreted my responses as angry in order to paint a narrative about me, when he doesn't even know me."

He is lying. I gave him direct answers and I didn't beat around the bush about it. He speculated about a number of things for which he has no data and it is therefore guesswork (the number of insects in very ancient times, etc.). Whether he is actually 'angry' about the matter is of no real importance here. It appears to me that he was.

3. He said about the C14 matter: "Do we just reject this new Christian information as not relevant?" 'Christian information'? Any information or data that conflicts with what is clearly written in God's Word is wrong, and in the end of all consideration it is scripture that will be found to be accurate. He has little respect for God's Word as the final argument in matters of determining truth.

4. Reptoman has another big problem: understanding bottom-line arguments. I also repeatedly challenged him about God's promise to not 'flood the world' after Noah and his family came off the ark and He used the rainbow as that symbol of promise....a rainbow which has been seen countless times in countless places all over the world since then. So unless the world was entirely covered with the waters of Noah's flood then God has lied to us about the matter. Does God lie? Reptoman doesn't like this point any more than he does the issue of Christ's family lineage. His only comment so far has been, "Well, some creationists believe that there were rainbows BEFORE the flood." What does that have to do with the price of rice in China...and where is there either biblical or historical proof of it?

5. He said, "I am honest enough as a Christian and a science person to know we don't have all the answers?"

Where did I ever even suggest that i have ALL of the answers...about anything? But I do have the answers to the most important things as it relates to origins and the world-wide flood.

6. He said, "It was his insistance that I have somehow messed with the bible and am a heretic, this is the ploy I hve found in many a creationists who don't like questions about their tidy package."

He was messing then and he is messing now. That 'tidy package' he mentioned is, in fact, scriptural truth.

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is...Exodus 20:11

No room for any kind of gap between Genesis 1:1 & 1:2 there no matter what length of time one proposes.

And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. Genesis 7:19

There is no room for any belief in a local flood as taught by scripture.

#48 Salsa

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 09:18 AM

God ordered him too, and he obeyed God. The local flood idea is not some trickle of water, but compared to the whole bio-sphere a Mesopotamian flood would have been huge. Evidence is that some cultures did not have any interruption in there historic writings? I believe in the Ark and the flood just as much as you or any other conservative Christian does.


Noah obeying God is beside the point. Obviously he would also have obeyed if told to evacuate the area by foot. Noah had 100 years to make himself scarce. Even a snail with a sore leg would be able to make the journey given that amount of time, so the size of Mesopotamia is totally irrelevant.

The language of the animals brought supernaturally seem to be localized animals?


I'm not surprised that you're not getting any responses. You definitely need to elaborate in detail what you mean by this.

Mt. Everest is 29, 028 ft high. A flood 15 cubits above this would be; 29,050 so it rained for 40 days and 40 nights, this would work out to 726 feet of rain per day, Thirty feet an hour, and six inches of rain per minute. An inch of rain every 10 seconds.... If this actually happened then our air we breath would have been cut off???
These figures worldwide would be something around 8,712 inches a day.....


I had a quick browse through post #46 but when I saw this I stopped reading. Repto, did you figure this out yourself, or did you copy and past it. Please tell me you copied it!

Arguments like this are hardly worth taking seriously. They are a waste of time and only show that whoever makes them has not taken the time to check out what the Bible says about the flood, or to think their arguments through.
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#49 Calypsis4

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 01:28 PM

Uppsala, he said, "These figures worldwide would be something around 8,712 inches a day....."

You replied, "Repto, did you figure this out yourself, or did you copy and past it. Please tell me you copied it!

Arguments like this are hardly worth taking seriously."

Quite.

It seems that he has forgotten the main source of the water.........'the fountains of the great deep' Genesis 7:11.

But his problem serves as a classic example of what happens to those who rely on extrabiblical sources as a source of authority or final conclusions rather than the Word of God. The Bible, being inspired by God and without error should never take a back seat to any source of facts or data that seem to contradict with scripture because in the end of all consideration, the Word of God will be seen to be correct and man's opinions contrary to it are in error.

By the way, Uppsala, happy new year!

#50 Calypsis4

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 01:32 PM

Quote: "Even a snail with a sore leg would be able to make the journey given that amount of time..."

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha! That statement made my day.Posted Image

#51 Salsa

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 02:54 PM

It seems that he has forgotten the main source of the water.........'the fountains of the great deep' Genesis 7:11.


Exactly, not to mention the fact that the topography of the earth would have been different pre-flood. This is the kind of thing you would expect from adolescents "disproving" the Bible based on what they remember from Sunday school.

By the way, Uppsala, happy new year


Thanks Cal! Happy new year to you too! Posted Image

#52 Bonedigger

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 09:39 PM

I had a quick browse through post #46 but when I saw this I stopped reading. Repto, did you figure this out yourself, or did you copy and past it. Please tell me you copied it! Arguments like this are hardly worth taking seriously. They are a waste of time and only show that whoever makes them has not taken the time to check out what the Bible says about the flood, or to think their arguments through.


Uppsala, he said, "These figures worldwide would be something around 8,712 inches a day....." You replied, "Repto, did you figure this out yourself, or did you copy and past it. Please tell me you copied it! Arguments like this are hardly worth taking seriously." Quite. It seems that he has forgotten the main source of the water.........'the fountains of the great deep' Genesis 7:11. But his problem serves as a classic example of what happens to those who rely on extrabiblical sources as a source of authority or final conclusions rather than the Word of God. The Bible, being inspired by God and without error should never take a back seat to any source of facts or data that seem to contradict with scripture because in the end of all consideration, the Word of God will be seen to be correct and man's opinions contrary to it are in error.


Exactly, not to mention the fact that the topography of the earth would have been different pre-flood. This is the kind of thing you would expect from adolescents "disproving" the Bible based on what they remember from Sunday school.


Although it's been a while and I could be mistaken, I think that's the claim Hugh Ross made in his "Fingerprint of God" book. I don't recall if he gave the same figures as Reptoman, but the basic argument was the same...that the Flood would have had to cover the Himalayas, which ignores the basic premise of Flood Geology that the folded sedimentary layers of the Himalayas were laid down by the Flood, and then folded into synclines, etc. as the mountains were uplifted during Late/Post-Flood tectonic activity.

#53 Calypsis4

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 08:32 AM

Right, bonedigger.

And happy new year to you! Posted Image

#54 Bonedigger

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 03:20 PM

Right, bonedigger. And happy new year to you! Posted Image


Thanks Calypsis, and happy new year to you as well! Posted Image

#55 Dig4gold

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 07:44 PM

"Why would a Welsh historian dramatically misspell the name of the Welsh language ? It's not even as if it was a phonetic spelling - an English phonetic spelling of the word would be more like "Cumraig" or "Gumraig" depending on the grammatical context." aelyn

In response to the article that I linked to: http://creation.com/...andsons-of-noah

Is that your only objection to the article?

#56 MarkForbes

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 07:41 AM

"Why would a Welsh historian dramatically misspell the name of the Welsh language ? It's not even as if it was a phonetic spelling - an English phonetic spelling of the word would be more like "Cumraig" or "Gumraig" depending on the grammatical context." aelyn In response to the article that I linked to: http://creation.com/...andsons-of-noah Is that your only objection to the article?

Like in Gomeric [ Posted Image ]?

Are the Jupiter of the Romans, the Iapetos of the Greeks close enough matches or too far of the mark?

#57 de_skudd

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 04:25 PM

If there was a flood in the last say 10,000 years that wiped out every civilization except one, when exactly did it happen? But before you answer, if I find one or more civilizations that lived through that period and did not go extinct at that time, are you willing to reject the literal flood? Because it seems to me that there is no such period when all the civilizations of the world just died out at once. Am I wrong or does this simple fact refute the literal flood theology?


To start: Your question begins "If there was a flood in the last say 10,000 years that wiped out every civilization except one", then ends "when exactly did it happen". The second half of the questions has basically nothing to do with the first half, as the first half is ambiguous at best, then afterward you base your argument this flimsy and weak foundation.

Also: You have no evidence of any civilization that survived the flood (other than Noah and his family), so you may speculate, but that is nothing but speculation.

Further: Simply because something 'seems' to you, it does not makes this 'seeming' factual. And no one said "all the civilizations of the world just died out at once"; if that were the case "WE" would not be here (you'll get it if you think about it).

So, in answer to your final two questions:

YES, you are wrong!

NO, because you have stated no facts, and therefore refuted nothing.

#58 MarkForbes

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 08:14 AM

....

If the Flood was local, why did God send the animals to the Ark so they would escape death? There would have been other animals to reproduce that kind if these particular ones had died.

I have brought this up over and over with no response: The language of the animals brought supernaturally seem to be localized animals? Also where did the Ark house the non-nephesh insect population (11,000,000 species just in the Amazon alone)? Was the Ark actually big enough to house all known Dinos, Mammoths Amphibians, and animals which we know the boi-sphere created by God had a much huger diversity? I am not questioning the ARK but did every known specie come to the Ark. Or was it localized animals from the mesopotamian region?

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3][indent=1][u][b][size=4][color=#000000]If the Flood was local, why was the Ark big enough to hold all kinds of land vertebrate animals that have ever existed? ....

Wow, that's less then the estimated global number of species, which is thought to be less then 9 million.
http://www.reuters.c...E77N20O20110824
I don't think insects required "arking". And in many cases 100s or even 1000s of species can stem from one kind of animal.





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