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Kurt Wise


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#1 Minnemooseus

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 09:31 PM

I've been asked about my "signature":

 

"“I am a young-age creationist because the Bible indicates the universe is young. Given what we currently think we understand about the world, the majority of the scientific evidence favors an old earth and universe, not a young one. I would therefore say that anyone who claims that the earth is young for scientific evidence alone is scientifically ignorant.” - attributed to Kurt Wise

 

As I best recall, the quote is credited as originating from an e-mail conversation between Wise and one of the evolution side. It can be found at quite a few sites (apparently always from evolutionists). I never found it on a creationist site, but face it, it's not the sort of thing creationists would be promoting.

 

I purposely used "- attributed to Kurt Wise" rather than "- Kurt Wise" as I recognize that the veracity of the thing is at least a bit shaky. But it does seem to be in character (as I understand it) for Kurt Wise.

 

That's the story. We can use it as a launch point for discussion of things Kurt Wise. I had unsuccessfully looked for an existing Kurt Wise topic. I suspect this is one buried here somewhere.

 

Moose

 

ps: I did start a "Kurt Wise" topic at evcforum.net back in 2003. It can be found at http://www.evcforum....=599&mpp=30&p=1

 

Looking at that topic now, I'm reminded that it was the quote in question that triggered the creation of that topic.

 

The quote was supposidly brought in from Theologyweb.  Here is the link to that forum: http://www.theologyw...ampus/forum.php Maybe someone can track the quote down there.



#2 Minnemooseus

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 10:10 PM

A couple of supplemental links to message 1:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Wise

 

which led to:

 

http://creation.com/...ogy-in-six-days

 

Moose



#3 Fred Williams

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 08:44 AM

I deleted the post by Sammy as it was inappropriate. FYI, if there is a quote attributed to Kurt Wise that purports to suggest some credence to evolution, it is likely a valid quote (the quote cited sounds familiar and I give it a 99% chance of being accurate). Kurt Wise is an intellectual loose canon who has made plenty of irresponsible and sloppy statements. One example, J Woodmorrappe rightly called out his implied support for whale evolution and his stratomorphic intermediate nonsense as "a spurious line of reasoning". Given his unfavorable light among many creationists, it would also be a mistake here for anyone to make it appear he represents the creation movement, as he clearly does not (that being said, I see nothing wrong with MMoose's signature).

 

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#4 MarkForbes

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 10:07 AM

which led to:

 

http://creation.com/...ogy-in-six-days

 

Where it says:

Although there are scientific reasons for accepting a young earth, I am a young-age creationist because that is my understanding of the Scripture. As I shared with my professors years ago when I was in college, if all the evidence in the universe turned against creationism, I would be the first to admit it, but I would still be a creationist because that is what the Word of God seems to indicate.

That sounds a bit like the quote, but still gives the whole thing a different note. 



#5 Minnemooseus

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 02:57 PM

I attempted to post a substantial reply to member (not moderator) Fred Williams, but I just won't post. I've saved it as a text file and will try again later.

Now, let's see if this will post.

Moose

#6 Minnemooseus

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 08:24 PM

FYI, if there is a quote attributed to Kurt Wise that purports to suggest some credence to evolution, it is likely a valid quote (the quote cited sounds familiar and I give it a 99% chance of being accurate).

Thank you, but you might be giving the quote more validity support than even I do. I thought about deleting it as my signature, but I'm glad I didn't because that would have also have deleted it from all past messages. I did tack a comment onto the end ("(4/26/13 - now noted that the quote may be bogus, although it may still accurately reflect KW's position)").

Kurt Wise is an intellectual loose canon who has made plenty of irresponsible and sloppy statements.

My translation - "In conflict with the young Earth creationist mainstream."

One example, J Woodmorrappe rightly called out his implied support for whale evolution and his stratomorphic intermediate nonsense as "a spurious line of reasoning".

John Woodorrappe (aka Jan Peczkis - And it doesn't bother me that he uses a creationist pseudonym) - Bachelors degrees in biology and geology, masters degree in geology. Degrees from unknown college or university. Peczkis taught science to grades four to seven at Budlong Elementary School in Chicago until he was "let go" in April 2006 due to a lack of funding and has since become a substitute teacher.

Kurt Wise - Bachelors degree in geology from University of Chicago. Masters and PhD degrees in geology from Harvard (Phd having paleontology focus, under none other than Stephan J. Gould).

So, which has the academic credentials of knowing what he is talking about?

Given his unfavorable light among many creationists, it would also be a mistake here for anyone to make it appear he represents the creation movement, as he clearly does not.

So, he's being "expelled" from the creationist movement for having contrary opinions? Better take him off the "Scientists who accept the biblical account of creation" list (http://creation.com/...tion-scientists - A similar list was recently posted in another topic, but I couldn't find it).

I have more to say about Kurt Wise, but it will wait for a later message.

References in no particular order:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Wise
http://www.answersin...woodmorappe.asp
http://creationwiki....ohn_Woodmorappe
http://en.wikipedia....ohn_Woodmorappe

I wish to stress that this message is intended (with the exception of paragraph 1) as a reply to member Fred Williams, not moderator Fred Williams.

Moose

ps: Preview doesn't seem to be working right, so I hope this is what I intended.

#7 Bond007

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 07:43 AM

Wiki is heavily evolutionary biology propaganda biased (run by Dawkins fans) and you still have not provided a source for the quote (guess what? None exists). I might make up some garbage about Dawkins and say 'attributed to Dawkins'. No. YEC dont employ sly cunning deceitful tactics in the hope of only removing someones faith in creation/Genesis/the bible (atheists).



#8 Fred Williams

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 09:36 AM

John Woodorrappe (aka Jan Peczkis - And it doesn't bother me that he uses a creationist pseudonym) - Bachelors degrees in biology and geology, masters degree in geology. Degrees from unknown college or university. Peczkis taught science to grades four to seven at Budlong Elementary School in Chicago until he was "let go" in April 2006 due to a lack of funding and has since become a substitute teacher.

Kurt Wise - Bachelors degree in geology from University of Chicago. Masters and PhD degrees in geology from Harvard (Phd having paleontology focus, under none other than Stephan J. Gould).

So, which has the academic credentials of knowing what he is talking about? So, he's being "expelled" from the creationist movement for having contrary opinions? Better take him off the "Scientists who accept the biblical account of creation" list (http://creation.com/...tion-scientists - A similar list was recently posted in another topic, but I couldn't find it).

...


I wish to stress that this message is intended (with the exception of paragraph 1) as a reply to member Fred Williams, not moderator Fred Williams.
 

 

It doesn't matter to whom it is intended. The above as far as I'm concerned is classic evo-babble and definitely a violation of forum rule #7. It is not required to have PhD to point out sloppy science. You also put words in my mouth - there are many who take issue with Wise (for various reasons) but that doesn't make him "expelled", any more than Walt Brown would be for some of his non-party-line positions (many of which I believe are grounded in solid science).

 

Your Woodmorappe comment compels me to close this thread to prevent others from being baited into a discussion of credentials that would be a colossal waste of everyone's time. The only point you made that has merit is that it is fair game for evos to reference creationist quotes that lend support to their position, after all we often do the same thing.

 

Fred






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