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#41 ikester7579

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 07:52 AM

If it was a literal six days then Gen.2:4 would say days but instead it says 'day':

"In the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens."
The translation of 'day' in this verse is - ' to be hot'.

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You take what you say out of context.

Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Generations were created in one day is what that means. During the 6 days creation, sin did not happen until the end of the 6th day. What odes that mean? Time minus sin is time eternal. Time eternal as all the same laws of physics as we have now except one. Aging and decay does not exist.

So how does God have to created under the laws where time exist, but aging does not? He creates everything with age already added. Why?

1) If animals were created as babies when they would never grow up (age), most would not survive so it would be a bad creation.
2) If God created man and woman as babies and they never grew up, who would take care of them?
3) If God created the earth brand new, it would be to hot to sustain life and therefore would be a bad creation.
4) If God created a new sun, it would not be able to sustain life on the third planet, creating a star a certain size, strength and age that it would be mostly stable makes it to where life can exist on the third planet.

Some people think that the Bible cannot express millions or even billions of years. And that was the reason for the creation the way that it is written. That would be wrong.

gen 24:60 And they blessed Rebekah, and said unto her, Thou art our sister, be thou the mother of thousands of millions, and let thy seed possess the gate of those which hate them.

1,000 x 1,000,000 = 1 billion. God's word has the ability to express a million or a billion of needed. The reason it was never done is because that amount of actual passage of time never happened.

#42 dmwessel

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 08:32 AM

You take what you say out of context.

Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Generations were created in one day is what that means. During the 6 days creation, sin did not happen until the end of the 6th day. What odes that mean? Time minus sin is time eternal. Time eternal as all the same laws of physics as we have now except one. Aging and decay does not exist.

So how does God have to created under the laws where time exist, but aging does not? He creates everything with age already added. Why?

1) If animals were created as babies when they would never grow up (age), most would not survive so it would be a bad creation.
2) If God created man and woman as babies and they never grew up, who would take care of them?
3) If God created the earth brand new, it would be to hot to sustain life and therefore would be a bad creation.
4) If God created a new sun, it would not be able to sustain life on the third planet, creating a star a certain size, strength and age that it would be mostly stable makes it to where life can exist on the third planet.

Some people think that the Bible cannot express millions or even billions of years. And that was the reason for the creation the way that it is written. That would be wrong.

gen 24:60 And they blessed Rebekah, and said unto her, Thou art our sister, be thou the mother of thousands of millions, and let thy seed possess the gate of those which hate them.

1,000 x 1,000,000 = 1 billion. God's word has the ability to express a million or a billion of needed. The reason it was never done is because that amount of actual passage of time never happened.

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I didn't take it out of context, the word is most definitely 'day' and the translation is 'to be hot'. It speaks of the 'conditions' on the earth during this time and 'generations' means 'history/long period of time' but the root from which the word is taken is 'barenness'.

All I was saying is this verse throws doubt on the literal 6 days.

Too, Gen. 2:4 says something strange. First it mentions in 2:1 & 4 'heavens and earth' but in the latter half of 2:4 mentions the 'earth' as coming 'before' the heavens. Strange. This reversal is unusual but it's not a mistake because God's word is perfect.

It was the fact that it was 'hot' that was responsible for creating life. Afterall man evolved from the dust/ground (hot primodial soup).

#43 ikester7579

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 11:47 AM

I didn't take it out of context, the word is most definitely 'day' and the  translation is 'to be hot'. It speaks of the 'conditions' on the earth during this time and 'generations' means 'history/long period of time' but the root from which the word is taken is 'barenness'.

All I was saying is this verse throws doubt on the literal 6 days.

Too, Gen. 2:4 says something strange. First it mentions in 2:1 & 4 'heavens and earth' but in the latter half of 2:4 mentions the 'earth' as coming 'before' the heavens. Strange. This reversal is unusual but it's not a mistake because God's word is perfect.

It was the fact that it was 'hot' that was responsible for creating life. Afterall man evolved from the dust/ground (hot primodial soup).

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I have never heard the word day being translated into hot. Where did you get that from?

Also: Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

There are 3 heavens:
2cor 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

1) Physical heaven of good and evil (where we are aka universe). Day and night.
2) Spiritual heaven of evil and darkness (where Satan and his fallen angels are).
3) Spiritual Heaven of good and light (Where God, Jesus and the angels are).

Before you can create the earth, you have to have a place to put it. So heaven #1 is the universe.

Also you need 3 things to create a universe. Time, space and matter.

1) In the beginning = time.
2) God created the heaven = space.
3) And the earth = matter.

#44 Ron

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 01:18 PM

It was the fact that it was 'hot' that was responsible for creating life. Afterall man evolved from the dust/ground (hot primodial soup).

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Negative dmwessel.... The word in question is translated as "Yowm" (see Strong's 3117) means day. And in it's contextual usage means during the "daylight" hours of the day (from sunrise to sunset) or from one one sunset to the next. So, as translated, it literally means approximately twelve OR Twenty-four hour period.... NO MORE!

It in no way deviates from Genesis chapter One. AND, if you actually kept the word ("yowm" or "day") in the context of it's sentence, the paragraph around it, or the chapters around that, you will come to the conclusion that it means approximately a "Twenty-four Hour Period". To do otherwise would be nothing more than equivocation.

#45 Ron

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 01:21 PM

I have never heard the word day being translated into hot. Where did you get that from?

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He either doesn't understand the translation, or he is purposefully trying to twist it to his own meaning (equivocate).

The Hot (or heat) portion of the translation means nothing more than the warmest portion of a twenty-four hour period (i.e. daylight as opposed to dark or night).

#46 dmwessel

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Posted 09 February 2011 - 08:30 AM

I have never heard the word day being translated into hot. Where did you get that from?

Also: Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

There are 3 heavens:
2cor 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

1) Physical heaven of good and evil (where we are aka universe). Day and night.
2) Spiritual heaven of evil and darkness (where Satan and his fallen angels are).
3) Spiritual Heaven of good and light (Where God, Jesus and the angels are).

Before you can create the earth, you have to have a place to put it. So heaven #1 is the universe.

Also you need 3 things to create a universe. Time, space and matter.

1) In the beginning = time.
2) God created the heaven = space.
3) And the earth = matter.

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Genesis is only a very quick overview.

'From sunrise to sunset' is actually a secondary meaning, the original meaning is 'to be hot' (Strongs, Hebrew #3117)

So what's the 'third' heaven?

You have it wrong. Satan was cast to the 'earth (Rev. 9:1, Rev. 12:4)' where he is 'god of this world (2 Cor. 4:4):
"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."

Time, space and matter = big bang. But why did the big bang happen in the first place?

#47 Ron

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Posted 09 February 2011 - 08:40 AM

Genesis is only a very quick overview.

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Regardless of your assumption, even a quick overview, when kept within the context of its literary content, your initial presumption is incorrect.

'From sunrise to sunset' is actually a secondary meaning, the original meaning is 'to be hot' (Strongs, Hebrew #3117)

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Once again, incorrect. You are attempting to rip it from its contextual meanings. And that will not be allowed, as I will continue to expose it until you provide real evidence of your assertions, or admit you are incorrect. Also, your “heat” misinterpretation is totally incorrect as per the translation, as I pointed out in my post. Running from your incorrect interpretation will not be allowed either (exposed at every turn).

Admit were you are incorrect, and you'll get along much better here.

#48 ikester7579

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Posted 09 February 2011 - 08:52 PM

Genesis is only a very quick overview.

'From sunrise to sunset' is actually a secondary meaning, the original meaning is 'to be hot' (Strongs, Hebrew #3117)

So what's the 'third' heaven?

You have it wrong. Satan was cast to the 'earth (Rev. 9:1, Rev. 12:4)' where he is 'god of this world (2 Cor. 4:4):
"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."

Time, space and matter = big bang.  But why did the big bang happen in the first place?

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Well the Bible disagrees with you:

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

All through creation the word heaven stays singular. And when the creation is finished the word heaven becomes plural. And not only is it plural but it says:

heavens and the earth were finished and the host of them.

Host = inhabitants. So all three heavens were finished, and all the hosts of each one were in them. That equals.

1) Our physical heaven and it's host.
2) Hell and it's host.
3) Heaven and it's host.

This shows that Satan fell during the creation. Which puts him on earth in time to take over the snake that tempted Eve. And is also why one of Satan's names is: rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

God's Omega (Revelation) confirms God's alpha (Genesis).

#49 AFJ

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Posted 09 February 2011 - 10:09 PM

Nice article, Louie. But since the author believes what the Bible has to say, his reasons don't matter. He can't possibly be a 'real' scientist. I can't wait to read the refutations that will doubtless be advanced in this thread.

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Nice post, but since you and all other geologists, all the way back to James Hutton, existed within the last 300 years, it's not possible that any true scientific measurements could have been taken for your old earth theory. The reason is that, though geologists have developed a structural study of the earth, and it's formations, the underlying assumptions are continually skewed toward it's historical Huttonian and Lyellian assumptions.

#50 MamaElephant

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 08:16 AM

Well the Bible disagrees with you:

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

All through creation the word heaven stays singular. And when the creation is finished the word heaven becomes plural. And not only is it plural but it says:

heavens and the earth were finished and the host of them.

Host = inhabitants. So all three heavens were finished, and all the hosts of each one were in them. That equals.

1) Our physical heaven and it's host.
2) Hell and it's host.
3) Heaven and it's host.

This shows that Satan fell during the creation. Which puts him on earth in time to take over the snake that tempted Eve. And is also why one of Satan's names is: rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

God's Omega (Revelation) confirms God's alpha (Genesis).

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hmmmm... I think that you are assuming that we will understand this with too little of an explanation. :lol:

#51 dmwessel

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 10:03 AM

You take what you say out of context.

Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Generations were created in one day is what that means. During the 6 days creation, sin did not happen until the end of the 6th day. What odes that mean? Time minus sin is time eternal. Time eternal as all the same laws of physics as we have now except one. Aging and decay does not exist.


In your own words 'generations' means 'day' but how many generations are you talking about? Therefore, '6' days also has to mean 'generations (but again, how many)' and not a literal day.

So how does God have to created under the laws where time exist, but aging does not? He creates everything with age already added. Why?


No, time creates aging. And it's very obvious that time exists here. As to how much time has elapsed, generations could mean billions of years.

#52 Ron

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 12:09 PM

In your own words 'generations' means 'day' but how many generations are you talking about? Therefore, '6' days also has to mean 'generations (but again, how many)' and not a literal day.

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Please look up the word "context" and then apply said definition to words when you attempt to ascertain their meanings.

#53 ikester7579

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 08:57 PM

In your own words 'generations' means 'day' but how many generations are you talking about? Therefore, '6' days also has to mean 'generations (but again, how many)' and not a literal day.


And where did I say exactly that? I said: Generations were created in one day.

Creating with age already added equals generations. Example: God creates the earth 4.6 billion years old, how many generations is that?

No, time creates aging.  And it's very obvious that time exists here. As to how much time has elapsed, generations could mean billions of years.

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Question: Can you prove that the laws of time and physics remained the same always? You cannot, so your claim is not absolute as you try to imply.

#54 dmwessel

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Posted 12 February 2011 - 11:19 AM

And where did I say exactly that? I said: Generations were created in one day.


As you say, generation(s) means 'more than one day'!

Since the topic of the thread was 'a literal 6 days' (and one I presumed you agreed with) I was simply stating that it could not have been a literal 6 days but really means 'generations' (and who knows how long the word generations is referring to).

So then you don't believe in a literal 6 day interpretation?

#55 Spectre

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 02:57 PM

Wow! You’re good.  :)

Looks like the same old irreducible complexity (already debunked numerous times) with a dash of Argumentum ad Ignorantiam
Actually, he may be an otherwise good scientist.

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What? You were there to see abiogenesis in action?! Do tell.

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 06:49 PM

I thought I would offer this article in an email I have received, as it offers a very good explanation for the days of Genesis being 24 hour days. Both the language used and the context itself and the repetition of such words being used elsewhere in scripture, which back up the 24 hour day as meaning just that.

Creation Was 24/6 and Recent --

The language of Genesis chapters 1 and 2 are technically precise and linguistically clear. Any reader would understand that the author of those pages intended to convey a normal six-day creation, involving God’s supernatural intervention both to create (something from nothing) and to make and shape (something basic into something more complex).

Three days (Day 1, Day 5, and Day 6) involve creation. Three days (Day 2, Day 3, and Day 4) involve the organization, integration, and structuring of the material created on Day 1.

Life was created on Day 5, a life in which all animals and man share. A special image of God was created on Day 6 that only man has. The movement from “simple to complex” may appear to follow evolution’s theory, but the specific order (water > land > plants > stellar and planetary bodies > birds and fish > land animals > man) most emphatically does not.

The Hebrew word for day (yom) is used some 3,000 times in the Hebrew Bible, and is almost always used to mean an ordinary 24-hour day-night cycle. On the few occasions where it is used to mean an indeterminate period of time, it is always clear from the context that it means something other than a 24-hour day (day of trouble, day of the Lord, day of battle, etc). Whenever it is used with an ordinal (1, 2, 1st, 2nd, etc.), it always means a specific day, an ordinary24-hour day.

The language of Genesis 1 appears to have been crafted so that no reader would mistake the word use for anything other than an ordinary 24-hour day. The light portion is named “day,” and the dark portion is named “night.” Then the “evening and the morning” is Day 1, Day 2, etc. The linguistic formula is repeated for each of the six days, a strange emphasis if the words were to be taken as allegorical or analogous to something other than a day-night cycle.

When God wrote the Ten Commandments with His own finger (certainly the most emphatic action ever taken by God on behalf of His revealed Word), God specifically designated a seventh day to be a “Sabbath” day (rest day) in memory and in honor of the work-six-days, rest-one-day activity of God during the creation week (Exodus 20:11). In that context, spoken and written by God Himself, the creation week can mean only a regular week of seven days, one of which is set aside as holy


Institute for CREATION Research/ HMM
_________________________


#57 Bruce V.

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 08:52 PM

link

...

On the third day, God formed the land out of the seas. There is no time frame given for the formation of the land and seas. Some time after the land was formed, God created the plants:

Then God said, "Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit after their kind, with seed in them, on the earth"; and it was so. (Genesis 1:11)
And the earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit, with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good. (Genesis 1:12)

The text clearly states that the earth "sprouted" the plants (the Hebrew word deshe,5 Strong's #H1877, usually refers to grasses). The Hebrew word dasha,6 (Strong's #H1876) indicates that the plants grew from either seeds or small seedlings in order to have "sprouted." In addition, these plants produced seeds. The Hebrew word here is zera (Strong's #H2233), which is most often translated "descendants." This makes matters very difficult for the 24-hour interpretation. Not only do the plants sprout and grow to maturity, but produce seed or descendants. There are no plants capable of doing this within a 24-hour period of time. Things actually get worse for this interpretation. Genesis 1:12 clearly states that God allowed the earth to bring forth trees that bore fruit. The process by which the earth brings forth trees to the point of bearing fruit takes several years, at minimum. God did not create the trees already bearing fruit. The text states clearly that He allowed the earth to accomplish the process of fruit bearing through natural means. Because the process of the third day requires a minimum period of time of more than  24 hours, the Genesis text for the third day clearly falsifies the interpretation that the days of Genesis one are 24-hour periods of time.
...

We are left with only one interpretation for the days of Genesis one. The literal, clearly indicated, meaning of yom for Genesis one must be an unspecified, long period of time. This is why I believe that the day-age Genesis one interpretation is the only biblically sound interpretation for the creation of the world and life on it.



#58 Spectre

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 11:14 PM

The progressive Creationist Dr. Hugh Ross says that the "yom" is contextual and context is key. If context is the key, it is very obvious that "yom" equates to no more than 24 hours in Genesis 1 and 2. I do not know of any Hebrew scholars that would disagree with me on this.

I would also like to add that Hugh Ross doesn't know Hebrew. :)

None of this old earth interpretation would have ever come to be if it weren't for evolution coming into light. You have to start at The Bible before anything else or else you risk your interpretation being skewed.

#59 Geode

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 12:50 AM

The progressive Creationist Dr. Hugh Ross says that the "yom" is contextual and context is key. If context is the key, it is very obvious that "yom" equates to no more than 24 hours in Genesis 1 and 2. I do not know of any Hebrew scholars that would disagree with me on this.

I would also like to add that Hugh Ross doesn't know Hebrew. :)

None of this old earth interpretation would have ever come to be if it weren't for evolution coming into light. You have to start at The Bible before anything else or else you risk your interpretation being skewed.

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I think that Hebrew scholars probably never really had a problem with context being used for how long a period was meant by the word yom, just as we interpret the English word day in context. As far as I can determine virtually all online discussion on the matter is in terms of creationism, with the majority of it being at YEC sites taking the position of a 24-hour day. The remaining sites appear to largely be "old earth" orientated and argue for using context. Apparently it is basically a moot point for those not involved in the debate about creationism (of one sort or another).

I agree with Old Earth Creationists that evolution and the age of the earth are independent of each other. Yes, I am aware that Hutton's ideas influenced Darwin, but Hutton himself did not address evolution. The concept that the earth was quite old was coming to be accepted by geologists before organic evolution came to hold sway in the scientific community.

#60 dmwessel

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 08:23 AM

I thought I would offer this article in an email I have received, as it offers a very good explanation for the days of Genesis being 24 hour days.  Both the language used and the context itself and the repetition of such words being used elsewhere in scripture, which back up the 24 hour day as meaning just that.

Creation Was 24/6 and Recent --
Institute for CREATION Research/ HMM
_________________________

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If you were correct then Gen. 2:4 would have used the word days instead of singular, day.

And Genesis is only a very brief overview of possibly billions of years.




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