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Cliche #6.2 - God Is Outside Of Time Vs Ontological Argument For God


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#1 Fjuri

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 10:50 AM

Since I am unable to quote as many scripture references as must of you, I decided try and open the discussion on this topic from a different perspective.

 

A lot of you belief the ontological argument for God is true. For those unaware of the argument, here is version of it:

Definition of God is a being than which none greater can be conceived.

(1) Suppose that God exists in the understanding alone.

(2) Given our definition, this means that a being than which none greater can be conceived exists in the understanding alone.

(3) But this being can be conceived to exist in reality. That is, we can conceive of a circumstance in which theism is true, even if we do not believe that it actually obtains.

(4) But it is greater for a thing to exist in reality than for it to exist in the understanding alone.

(5) Hence we seem forced to conclude that a being than which none greater can be conceived can be conceived to be greater than it is.

(6) But that is absurd.

(7) So (1) must be false. God must exist in reality as well as in the understanding.

 

If we now look at the discussion whether God is outside of time or not, we must conclude that either:

- The ontological argument is incorrect (this doesn't mean God doesn't exist, only that this argument is incorrect)

- God must be outside of time

 

That's at least my understanding on it. Care to share your thoughts?



#2 Dig4gold

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 11:41 AM

Ontologically speaking God is the supreme Being, does not change and is eternal. Therefore, if God were "in time" that would mean that there had to be a beginning and everthing that has a beginning also must have a cause. So for God to be "in time" He must have had a creator Himself, which would be greater than Him. This of course would be nonsense so I must believe that God is "outside of time" and only interacts with time at His choosing.  


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#3 Teejay

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 01:54 PM

Ontologically speaking God is the supreme Being, does not change and is eternal. Therefore, if God were "in time" that would mean that there had to be a beginning and everthing that has a beginning also must have a cause. So for God to be "in time" He must have had a creator Himself, which would be greater than Him. This of course would be nonsense so I must believe that God is "outside of time" and only interacts with time at His choosing.  

Dig,

"...a supreme Being , does not change."  Question:  God the Son (Jesus) became a man.  Was God the Son always a man?  If not, then He changed.  Right?

If God were in time, then we should be able to prove it by Scripture.  "When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about an hour" (Rev. 8:1).  Sounds like there is time in heaven.  Right?

"I am the first and the last" (Rev. 1:11).  First and last are time words.  Right?

"I am alive for evermore" (Rev. 118) Here it sure sounds like He is alive in time forever.  Right?

TeeJay  



#4 Dig4gold

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Posted 15 March 2014 - 09:57 PM

TJ: "...a supreme Being , does not change." Question: God the Son (Jesus) became a man. Was God the Son always a man? If not, then He changed. Right?


You can search the Scriptures yourself for the answer.

“For I, the Lord, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed. Mal 3:6

#5 Adam Nagy

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 06:49 AM

I think Teejay's error in using Jesus becoming a man as proof of God changing is akin to saying that God changed with every revelation. If you open a box with an item in it. Revealing the item doesn't change the item.

I remember when I was a little kid having a revelation. I liked candy. I would be trying things for the first time... snickers, milky-way bars, Reese's Peanut-butter cups, etc... I had this assumption that my discovery of it meant that it was new. What a revelation it was to ponder that just because I knew about it for the first time had no bearing on its own state as being new or old.

The point is; that God revealing Himself in the person of Jesus Christ didn't change God, It changed us.

#6 Teejay

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 01:21 PM

I think Teejay's error in using Jesus becoming a man as proof of God changing is akin to saying that God changed with every revelation. If you open a box with an item in it. Revealing the item doesn't change the item.

I remember when I was a little kid having a revelation. I liked candy. I would be trying things for the first time... snickers, milky-way bars, Reese's Peanut-butter cups, etc... I had this assumption that my discovery of it meant that it was new. What a revelation it was to ponder that just because I knew about it for the first time had no bearing on its own state as being new or old.

The point is; that God revealing Himself in the person of Jesus Christ didn't change God, It changed us.

Adam,

God not being able to change is reasoning that came from Greek philosophers like Aristotle who reasoned that because God was perfect he could not change in any way.  They reasoned, wrongly, if He changed, He would no longer be perfect.  We also get from the Greeks, through Augustine, Greek fatalism.  The future is sealed and God can't change the number of raindrops that will fall in Montana tomorrow.  Now I will admit that God will not change His righteous nature and sin or break a promise to us, but I will not be convinced that God can't sin or break a promise.  Some Christians wrongly believe that God granted us free will, but He Himself can't do otherwise.  It takes no faith to trust a God who can't do otherwise.

 

God is a free Agent who can decide not to give Israel their kingdom and instead go directly to the Gentiles, bypassing Israel, with Paul.  God was sorry that He made man, and He took Noah and destroyed all other humans.  I can mention so many ways where God changed.  God becoming the Man Jesus is a huge change.  God the Father pouring out His wrath on His Son Jesus is a huge change.  God not being able to change is a cliche' that needs to be plucked up by the roots and left to die.  God is the living God.  He is living, personal, relational, good and loving.  A God with all these personal attributes is a God who can change, and not a stone idol.

 

TeeJay



#7 Adam Nagy

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 01:55 PM

God not being able to change is reasoning that came from Greek philosophers like Aristotle who reasoned that because God was perfect he could not change in any way.


As Dig aptly quoted...

"For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. (Malachi 3:6 KJV)"

Teejay, with all due respect, how are you not committing the genetic fallacy here? If an idea can be traced to pagan people, it says nothing about its truthfulness or falsehood.

I guess the next step would be to quibble over the semantics of the word 'change' but we would get nowhere, I'd suspect.

#8 Teejay

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 03:17 PM

As Dig aptly quoted...

"For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. (Malachi 3:6 KJV)"

Teejay, with all due respect, how are you not committing the genetic fallacy here? If an idea can be traced to pagan people, it says nothing about its truthfulness or falsehood.

I guess the next step would be to quibble over the semantics of the word 'change' but we would get nowhere, I'd suspect.

 

Adam,

It would be the genetic fallacy if I did not add my reasons why I disagree with Aristotle.  I do have a question:  How does one start a new thread?  I'm a computer dinosaur.

 

TeeJay



#9 Dig4gold

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 04:35 PM

Adam, you like Reese's Peanut-butter cups too? They're the bomb!
Just don't eat too many of them, you know too much of a good thing...
Hey, when the bag is done - so am I.

#10 Adam Nagy

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 04:55 PM

Adam, you like Reese's Peanut-butter cups too? They're the bomb!

They're a timeless classic! (Pun intended) ...and evidently they're kosher too. :D

Just don't eat too many of them, you know too much of a good thing...
Hey, when the bag is done - so am I.

That's about my level of self-control as well :(

#11 Adam Nagy

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 03:47 PM

How does one start a new thread?

Teejay, I moved this conversation to...

http://evolutionfair...905#entry103636



#12 Adam Nagy

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 05:57 PM

Hi Teejay, let's talk about steeltown ...

http://evolutionfair...912#entry103889




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