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Questions For Any Creationist/young Earther.

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#1 into_nothing

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 10:47 PM

In your attempts to debate the origins of life and the universe, you've blown the biggest hole in your argument. The only thing you have to say is simply, God did it. If you have so much faith in your God, then why even debate? You already have all the answers. Why even try to understand what He did? Why put yourself through the trouble? And one last question, how many of you use GPS? (Google maps on your phone, car GPS, etc) I'm curious.

 

 



#2 FaithfulCenturion

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 05:20 AM

In your attempts to debate the origins of life and the universe, you've blown the biggest hole in your argument. The only thing you have to say is simply, God did it. If you have so much faith in your God, then why even debate? You already have all the answers. Why even try to understand what He did? Why put yourself through the trouble?

I'm sure if you take a short tour through the threads here, you'll find this is an easily answered question. Aside from the fact that all of science is based on creationists...

And one last question, how many of you use GPS? (Google maps on your phone, car GPS, etc) I'm curious.
 
 

And unless I miss my guess, this will either be a strawman or a false dilemma fallacy. Sorry, most of us here have been around the block a few times, so we tend to be able to spot them well. ;) I'll respond more later, but I've gotta get ready for church. Welcome to the forum! :)

#3 EQuestions

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 08:09 AM

In your attempts to debate the origins of life and the universe, you've blown the biggest hole in your argument. The only thing you have to say is simply, God did it. If you have so much faith in your God, then why even debate? You already have all the answers. Why even try to understand what He did? Why put yourself through the trouble?

 

 

Ditto to FC. Read through the forums. We're not making 'God of the gaps' arguments.

 

 

 

And one last question, how many of you use GPS? (Google maps on your phone, car GPS, etc) I'm curious.

 

This is either a phishing technique or they're about to pull the old "This is what science has done for us. What has religion ever done for us?" type argument.



#4 into_nothing

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 08:24 AM

Thanks for welcoming me to the forum FaithfulCenturion.

I know, as you mentioned, you will reply more later, but just as a response to your reply.......

The first 3 questions I asked you are more of your own opinion, you don't need to back them up, so I'm surprised you told me to look around to find answers to those. It's your own personal opinion. So I'll wait for your own answer on that one.

Secondly, there's a good reason why I asked the GPS question, since you're a Young Earth Creationist.

And lastly, I have another question I would like to ask is, All science is based on Creationists?!

Thanks!

#5 into_nothing

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 08:29 AM

PS...

The GPS question isn't a "look at what science has done for us question". That's a weak argument if I was to use it.

And that's two people now who didn't answer the first 3 questions yet. It's you're own opinion.

#6 EQuestions

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 10:30 AM

 If you have so much faith in your God, then why even debate?

 

OK. Fine. I'll bite.

 

First off you actually asked four questions.....not three.

 

I debate not because of some 'lack' of faith. I debate in the hopes of showing non believers that the evidence points not to the natural world creating everything (the old nature-of-the-gaps argument) but to an Almighty Creator. The God of the Bible. 

 

 

 

 Why even try to understand what He did? 

 

Why not? Science can, and has, shown us many marvelous things about how God created the world around us. I'm amazed at the universe he created. Why wouldn't I try to understand more about his creation? Science gives us a brilliant way to understand how things were all put together. 

 

 

 

Why put yourself through the trouble?

 

Because it's something I'm very interested in. My wife doesn't share the same passion I do for science and understanding. She just knows that she knows that she knows. That's great and it works for her and most everyone else I know but I'm not built that way. I like reading the scientific papers and articles and learning how and why things function the way they do. I love that modern science is discovering new and amazing things about the world around us and that Darwinian evolution is quickly becoming a dinosaur and an idea for old way thinkers. It's great! That's why I 'go through the trouble'. In addition to that it becomes a wonderful ministering tool for me. It's what I'm interested in so when others have questions they bounce them off of me in my church and community. I'm able to then point them to resources and show then evidence and papers they don't get in school because it's not allowed to be discussed in most schools. This allows them to actually be educated on the topic as opposed to being indoctrinated which is what secular universities are doing.

 

 

 

how many of you use GPS?

 

I use GPS but you and I both know this is a loaded question. I'm interested to see where you're going to try and take this.


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#7 FaithfulCenturion

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 10:36 AM

In your attempts to debate the origins of life and the universe, you've blown the biggest hole in your argument. The only thing you have to say is simply, God did it. If you have so much faith in your God, then why even debate? You already have all the answers. Why even try to understand what He did? Why put yourself through the trouble? And one last question, how many of you use GPS? (Google maps on your phone, car GPS, etc) I'm curious.
 
 


As I said before, all of these present a false dilemma. A better question is why NOT find out how He did it? As I said, all of science was created by creationists. If you look at the "founding fathers" of science, you'll see they're creationists. (Issac Newton, Francis Bacon, Johann Kepler, Blase Pascal, etc, etc...)

Now my question would be what does GPS have to do with the discussion of creation?

#8 into_nothing

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 10:57 AM

As I said before, all of these present a false dilemma. A better question is why NOT find out how He did it? As I said, all of science was created by creationists. If you look at the "founding fathers" of science, you'll see they're creationists. (Issac Newton, Francis Bacon, Johann Kepler, Blase Pascal, etc, etc...)

Now my question would be what does GPS have to do with the discussion of creation?

 

 

Your opinion presents a false dilemma? You can't say something like "I want to discuss the science behind creationism because I care about people, and want to spread the word of God." or something? That's all I asked. 

 

Regarding the GPS question, I asked you first. 

 

And, the "Founding Fathers" you mentioned, were most likely/were Christian (especially Newton). What I think you're getting at is they're goal was to understand "God's Creation", which would make them technically creationists. Fair enough. But the scientists that who came after (Einstein, Feynman, Bohr, Higgs, Guth, Schrödinger, Bethe, etc) were known to be non-believers.

 

But anyway, still waiting on the GPS question....



#9 FaithfulCenturion

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 11:00 AM

 
 
Your opinion presents a false dilemma? You can't say something like "I want to discuss the science behind creationism because I care about people, and want to spread the word of God." or something? That's all I asked. 
 
Regarding the GPS question, I asked you first. 
 
And, the "Founding Fathers" you mentioned, were most likely/were Christian (especially Newton). What I think you're getting at is they're goal was to understand "God's Creation", which would make them technically creationists. Fair enough. But the scientists that who came after (Einstein, Feynman, Bohr, Higgs, Guth, Schrödinger, Bethe, etc) were known to be non-believers.
 
But anyway, still waiting on the GPS question....

I'll reply to your other points in a bit, but I doubt you'll get any takers on an odd question without a reason, especially when it doesn't seem to connect to the discussion at hand.

#10 into_nothing

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 12:27 PM

Great, you use GPS. GPS devices won’t work or be accurate without General and Special Relativity. The satellites orbit the Earth at around 20000km with an orbital velocity of about 14000 km/hr. So because the satellite is traveling at a high rate of speed relative to the Earth, it’s clock should tick slightly slower than one on Earth. And since it’s far away from Earth, General Relativity states that time should tick slower when you are in a stronger gravitational field. Because the satellite is far away from the surface, it’s clocks should tick faster since gravity is much less that high up. When you take the rate at which the satellite’s clock is slower (due to it’s velocity), and it’s clock getting ahead (due to less gravity), a GPS satellite’s clock should be ahead relative to the Earth. Now, if this isn’t taken into account, to put it quite simply, these satellites would have erroneous calculations of their own point in space, and would not be able to give you your actual position. Now if you think science is a great way to figure out and explain how God did things, then I don’t think you would deny that what I just said makes sense and that General and Special Relativity are capable of making accurate predictions of the world around us. So if you don’t think General and Special Relativity are highly accurate theories, you might as well stop reading. For the people that do think GR and SR are highly accurate theories, then you must take into account everything they are built upon as accurate as well. The two things I’d like to mention are….

 

That the speed of light is MEASURED to be ~300000 km/s. And that basic HS/College Trigonometry is a well founded, successful branch of mathematics.

 

So my question keeping those two things in mind is……

 

How can the Earth be 6000 years old if, by using simple Trig and the speed of light, you can calculate the distance to stars that are greater than 6000 light years away? Which means that the light took longer than the age of the Earth to get to us.



#11 FaithfulCenturion

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 12:40 PM

Great, you use GPS. GPS devices wont work or be accurate without General and Special Relativity. The satellites orbit the Earth at around 20000km with an orbital velocity of about 14000 km/hr. So because the satellite is traveling at a high rate of speed relative to the Earth, its clock should tick slightly slower than one on Earth. And since its far away from Earth, General Relativity states that time should tick slower when you are in a stronger gravitational field. Because the satellite is far away from the surface, its clocks should tick faster since gravity is much less that high up. When you take the rate at which the satellites clock is slower (due to its velocity), and its clock getting ahead (due to less gravity), a GPS satellites clock should be ahead relative to the Earth. Now, if this isnt taken into account, to put it quite simply, these satellites would have erroneous calculations of their own point in space, and would not be able to give you your actual position. Now if you think science is a great way to figure out and explain how God did things, then I dont think you would deny that what I just said makes sense and that General and Special Relativity are capable of making accurate predictions of the world around us. So if you dont think General and Special Relativity are highly accurate theories, you might as well stop reading. For the people that do think GR and SR are highly accurate theories, then you must take into account everything they are built upon as accurate as well. The two things Id like to mention are.
 

That the speed of light is MEASURED to be ~300000 km/s. And that basic HS/College Trigonometry is a well founded, successful branch of mathematics.

 

So my question keeping those two things in mind is

 

How can the Earth be 6000 years old if, by using simple Trig and the speed of light, you can calculate the distance to stars that are greater than 6000 light years away? Which means that the light took longer than the age of the Earth to get to us.

*sigh* I hate it when I'm right about these types of things....Please utilize the search function to peruse the numerous threads here for the reply to this...

#12 into_nothing

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 12:51 PM

*sigh* I hate it when I'm right about these types of things....Please utilize the search function to peruse the numerous threads here for the reply to this...

 

 

I haven't been hunting around for an argument, I would like an answer. If the claim is that the Earth is 6000 years, the burden of proof is with you. I provided my argument against it, of which there is overwhelming evidence. I would like a rebuttal in your own words please. I didn't sit here for 30 minutes typing for nothing.



#13 FaithfulCenturion

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 01:32 PM

 
 
I haven't been hunting around for an argument, I would like an answer. If the claim is that the Earth is 6000 years, the burden of proof is with you. I provided my argument against it, of which there is overwhelming evidence. I would like a rebuttal in your own words please. I didn't sit here for 30 minutes typing for nothing.


Well, you may have spent 30 minutes copy and pasting, but as I've told you before, your attitude is not welcome. I'm not an astronomer, so as I said, utilize the search feature of this site and I guarantee you'll find your answer. That lame "gps" argument has been refuted here before.

#14 into_nothing

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 01:49 PM

Well, you may have spent 30 minutes copy and pasting, but as I've told you before, your attitude is not welcome. I'm not an astronomer, so as I said, utilize the search feature of this site and I guarantee you'll find your answer. That lame "gps" argument has been refuted here before.

 

If were having an intellectual debate, I don't think it's good practice to personally attack your opponent. And attack and call questions lame, and odd. I simply demanded a rebuttal from you or anybody else. So I guess I'll just wait until someone either copy and pastes their side, or until someone types their own response. Thanks.



#15 piasan

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 01:56 PM

Welcome to the list, into....

 

I haven't been hunting around for an argument, I would like an answer. If the claim is that the Earth is 6000 years, the burden of proof is with you. I provided my argument against it, of which there is overwhelming evidence. I would like a rebuttal in your own words please. I didn't sit here for 30 minutes typing for nothing.

You might want to check my "It's a Matter of Time" discussion here:

http://evolutionfair...owtopic=5935=

 

 

Well, you may have spent 30 minutes copy and pasting, but as I've told you before, your attitude is not welcome. I'm not an astronomer, so as I said, utilize the search feature of this site and I guarantee you'll find your answer. That lame "gps" argument has been refuted here before.

Actually, it has not.

 

The only mention of GPS I've seen is with regard to Dr. Lisle's "Anisotropic Synchrony Convention."  ASC is another failed YEC attempt to explain their light travel time problem.  Essentially Lisle claims light travels infinitely fast toward an observer but only half of "c" when transmitted back toward the source.  Leaving aside the paradox created by Lisle's proposal and the fact the communication with astronauts on the moon as well as our distant space missions far beyond the moon the fact is that GPS relies on the time delay of the one-way speed of light.... which proves Lisle's ASC doesn't work.



#16 into_nothing

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 01:57 PM

Welcome to the list, into....

 

You might want to check my "It's a Matter of Time" discussion here:

http://evolutionfair...owtopic=5935=

 

 

Actually, it has not.

 

The only mention of GPS I've seen is with regard to Dr. Lisle's "Anisotropic Synchrony Convention."  ASC is another failed YEC attempt to explain their light travel time problem.  Essentially Lisle claims light travels infinitely fast toward an observer but only half of "c" when transmitted back toward the source.  Leaving aside the paradox created by Lisle's proposal and the fact the communication with astronauts on the moon as well as our distant space missions far beyond the moon the fact is that GPS relies on the time delay of the one-way speed of light.... which proves Lisle's ASC doesn't work.

 

Thanks. I will check out that post.



#17 usafjay1976

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 02:11 PM

In your attempts to debate the origins of life and the universe, you've blown the biggest hole in your argument. The only thing you have to say is simply, God did it.

 

Yes, saying God did it sums it up.  How He did it isn’t important.  Do you think the purpose of the bible was to describe each step He took to create each and every thing in the universe? 

 

If you have so much faith in your God, then why even debate?

 

What do you know about Christianity?  This is an honest question.  We debate in the hope that eyes will be opened to come and know Christ.  We all have free will.  God is not controlling us like puppets.  I don’t do participate here because I have to, I don’t think any Christians are on this forum for that reason. 

 

You already have all the answers.

 

I do.  It’s great!

 

Seriously though… I don’t have all the answers.  Can you point to someone in this forum that states they have all the answers or would you like to rephrase your question?

 

Why even try to understand what He did?

 

A hypothetical question for you:  If there is a God, would it not be important to know what He did (i.e. send his Son to die on the cross?) If you say no, please explain.

 

Why put yourself through the trouble?

 

I believe this was answered above, if not, please clarify your question.

 

And one last question, how many of you use GPS? (Google maps on your phone, car GPS, etc) I'm curious.

 

I use GPS and I read your comment on it.  I admit I’m not a starlight/space expert so I won’t comment on it.  I will say this though.  There are things we Christians don’t fully understand.  We continue to study God’s Word as this is the crux of our faith.  We are not perfect, not by any means.  We sin, and by sinning, we fall short of the Grace of God.  This is where Christ’s bloodshed wipes away those sins. 

 

In other words, knowing the ‘how’ isn’t as important as knowing the ‘Who’!  (The ‘w’ capitalized on purpose!)  :)

 

BTW, welcome to the forum.



#18 into_nothing

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 02:42 PM

 

Yes, saying God did it sums it up.  How He did it isn’t important.  Do you think the purpose of the bible was to describe each step He took to create each and every thing in the universe? 

 

 

 

 

What do you know about Christianity?  This is an honest question.  We debate in the hope that eyes will be opened to come and know Christ.  We all have free will.  God is not controlling us like puppets.  I don’t do participate here because I have to, I don’t think any Christians are on this forum for that reason. 

 

 

 

 

I do.  It’s great!

 

Seriously though… I don’t have all the answers.  Can you point to someone in this forum that states they have all the answers or would you like to rephrase your question?

 

 

 

 

A hypothetical question for you:  If there is a God, would it not be important to know what He did (i.e. send his Son to die on the cross?) If you say no, please explain.

 

 

 

 

I believe this was answered above, if not, please clarify your question.

 

 

 

 

I use GPS and I read your comment on it.  I admit I’m not a starlight/space expert so I won’t comment on it.  I will say this though.  There are things we Christians don’t fully understand.  We continue to study God’s Word as this is the crux of our faith.  We are not perfect, not by any means.  We sin, and by sinning, we fall short of the Grace of God.  This is where Christ’s bloodshed wipes away those sins. 

 

In other words, knowing the ‘how’ isn’t as important as knowing the ‘Who’!  (The ‘w’ capitalized on purpose!)  smile.png

 

BTW, welcome to the forum.

 

 

Thanks for welcoming me to the forum.

 

I'd be glad to answer your questions.

 

1) Do you think the purpose of the bible was to describe each step He took to create each and every thing in the universe? 

 

 No, not necessarily. But most of creationist claims (which statistics show most Christians don't take literally) are taken from The Bible itself. And if it's truly the word of god, many of these claims should have already been proven and not the opposite.

 

2) What do you know about Christianity?

 

I've read the bible, and gave Christianity an honest try. I have the holy books of all three of the Abrahamic religions on my iPad right now as well. 

 

3)  If there is a God, would it not be important to know what He did (i.e. send his Son to die on the cross?) If you say no, please explain.

 

If there is a God, of course it would be important to know what He did. But there is no way to prove or disprove any type of supreme being. But I think there is a way to prove the gods of human beings to be false. I'm an atheist in terms of all the religions people have believed in since humans could believe. In my opinion, I think if there is a God, every person on Earth is praying to the wrong one.



#19 EQuestions

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 02:42 PM

 

 

I haven't been hunting around for an argument, I would like an answer. If the claim is that the Earth is 6000 years, the burden of proof is with you. I provided my argument against it, of which there is overwhelming evidence. I would like a rebuttal in your own words please. I didn't sit here for 30 minutes typing for nothing.

 

You didn't type anything. You copy/pasted that from somewhere else. I've seen that argument before and you're NOT the originator of it. You more than likely saw it on an atheist website and thought, for some odd reason, that it was a YEC killer. Same ol same ol.

 

First off. GPS works because it takes into consideration SR and GR. If those two things were different then GPS would just be based on a different SR and GR. The GPS thing is a bad argument actually.

 

Now, as for the 'light years' thing. This has been brought up a thousand times before and it's really quite simple. The creationists have a problem with the whole time/light thing, I'll readily admit that, but guess what? So do the evolutionists and old earthers. Look up the 'horizon problem' and let me know what you learn. Either way it's a wash.


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#20 into_nothing

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 02:47 PM

I really didn't copy and paste that. Did I gather some data? Of course, I don't know how fast or high satellites orbit off the top of my head. I know GR and SR though. Please don't attack me either, like I mentioned earlier, you completely kill your argument when you go after your opponent. What I said should be under attack, not me personally. Thanks.







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