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Scientist Fired Over Soft Tissue In T-Tops Dino


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#21 Calypsis4

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 12:25 PM

All of that being said, so far as I can tell, Armitage was doing scientific research at a state funded and accredited university at the time of his discovery and the publication of it.  So he was doing "legitimate" science.

 

'Legitimate' science...right;8.gif    as dominated by people who believe that our universe came from nothing and haven't the slightest idea as to how; as dominated by people who believe that life generated of its own accord by natural processes but haven't got a single observed example nor a clue as to how it happened...and cannot with their brilliant minds even force nature to do it in the lab.



#22 Calypsis4

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 12:33 PM

 

Indeed, I don't know of such a thing as "accreditation". I simply thought that education in US was more serious. From what you describe in your comment #18, it seems as anyone can start and run a college. It's not like that in Europe by a long shot. For example, in Sweden, there is no such thing as "accreditation". If degrees from one university didn't "pass" as equal at any other university, than the university giving out "unaccredited" degrees would be immediately shut down by the government. In fact, if any university in Sweden would give out degrees that would not be accepted by academia in the whole of Europe (and a bunch of other countries), then that university would got shut down. 

 

"The accreditation team has the freedom to look into pretty much anything they want including lesson plans; text books; facilities; attendance; teacher certifications and even the transcripts of the teachers."

 

Sounds like something you would do to a junior high. Is education in US really this bad? That there has to be "accreditation teams"? If a principal at a Swedish university would hire a teacher without the right credentials, or use "wrong" textbooks, they a.) wouldn't even be allowed to hold the courses in whatever subject to begin with and b.) would risk getting either jail or some really expensive "speeding tickets". And of course, the university (or at least the faculty) would have to be shut down and wouldn't be allowed to continue it's activity till "accredited" teachers and textbooks are found.

 

Regards

 

Good friend, don't let piasan hijack this thread with talk about Amitage's credentials or the accreditation issue. He loves to deflect the discussion to lesser important things.

 

Hold his nose to the grindstone of truth....the ridiculous idea that soft tissue and/or blood cells could possibly be found in the fossil of a (supposed 60 million yr old) triceratops...and even worse for him/them, the notion that there could be the same thing found in a 68 million yr old T-Rex (a la Mary Schweitzer/Jack Horner). The bottom line here is that these things destroy the time frame that neo-Darwinians demand for such things and they DON'T like it when creationists expose their view for what it is.


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#23 piasan

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 02:56 PM

Indeed, I don't know of such a thing as "accreditation". I simply thought that education in US was more serious. From what you describe in your comment #18, it seems as anyone can start and run a college. It's not like that in Europe by a long shot. For example, in Sweden, there is no such thing as "accreditation". If degrees from one university didn't "pass" as equal at any other university, than the university giving out "unaccredited" degrees would be immediately shut down by the government. In fact, if any university in Sweden would give out degrees that would not be accepted by academia in the whole of Europe (and a bunch of other countries), then that university would got shut down. 

 

Accreditation is simply the process by which we verify schools are meeting standards of performance.  How do you tell if degrees from one university "'pass' as equal at any other university?"  And, yes, anyone can start and run a college.  They're called "private" schools and some of ours are among the best schools in the world.  Stanford, Harvard, Yale, and Notre Dame are a few examples. 

 

 

 

Sounds like something you would do to a junior high. Is education in US really this bad? That there has to be "accreditation teams"? If a principal at a Swedish university would hire a teacher without the right credentials, or use "wrong" textbooks, they a.) wouldn't even be allowed to hold the courses in whatever subject to begin with and b.) would risk getting either jail or some really expensive "speeding tickets". And of course, the university (or at least the faculty) would have to be shut down and wouldn't be allowed to continue it's activity till "accredited" teachers and textbooks are found.

 

Accreditation is something we do with all our schools .... from grade 1 thru a PhD.  So, how does Sweden verify if a teacher has the "right" credentials?  Of course, schools are not required to become accredited... but it's in their best interest to do so as without having gone thru the process of showing they meet certain standards, their degrees and credits may not be accepted by other schools.



#24 piasan

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 02:59 PM

Good friend, don't let piasan hijack this thread with talk about Amitage's credentials or the accreditation issue. He loves to deflect the discussion to lesser important things.

I'm not the one who initiated the discussion of Armitage's credentials or accreditation.  That issue was raised by one on your side.... Kairos.



#25 Calypsis4

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 03:07 PM

I'm not the one who initiated the discussion of Armitage's credentials or accreditation.  That issue was raised by one on your side.... Kairos.

 

And you answered him once which was sufficient. Why belabor the point since you already told us you were going to delay your assessment of this matter?


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#26 bov930527

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 03:12 PM

 

Good friend, don't let piasan hijack this thread with talk about Amitage's credentials or the accreditation issue. He loves to deflect the discussion to lesser important things.

 

Hold his nose to the grindstone of truth....the ridiculous idea that soft tissue and/or blood cells could possibly be found in the fossil of a (supposed 60 million yr old) triceratops...and even worse for him/them, the notion that there could be the same thing found in a 68 million yr old T-Rex (a la Mary Schweitzer/Jack Horner). The bottom line here is that these things destroy the time frame that neo-Darwinians demand for such things and they DON'T like it when creationists expose their view for what it is.

 

Heh, I was just about to explain how "accreditation" system works in Sweden, but I guess after reading your post I must agree that such a discussion would be nothing but derailing this thread. So I back off, and let the debate return to where it belongs.

 

Regards



#27 Calypsis4

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 05:13 PM

 

Heh, I was just about to explain how "accreditation" system works in Sweden, but I guess after reading your post I must agree that such a discussion would be nothing but derailing this thread. So I back off, and let the debate return to where it belongs.

 

Regards

 

Good for you. You've just taken away all his talking points.topic_closed.gif



#28 piasan

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 10:52 PM

Good friend, don't let piasan hijack this thread with talk about Amitage's credentials or the accreditation issue. He loves to deflect the discussion to lesser important things.

 

 

I'm not the one who initiated the discussion of Armitage's credentials or accreditation.  That issue was raised by one on your side.... Kairos

 

Good for you. You've just taken away all his talking points.topic_closed.gif

 

 

 

With the note that the matter of accreditation was mentioned three times before I commented on it, I agree that particular issue is off topic and have started a new discussion for it.  I'll discuss on topic issues in another post.  My apologies for any inconvenience.



#29 Kairos2014

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 11:29 PM

 

Wikipedia isn't all too reliable and generally has an evolutionist slant.. I figure calling it "unaccredited" was an "accidental" addition wink.png

 

Edit: Just checked out the link and it is the "Evowiki page" so we can definitely expect an evolutionist slant. If it is recognised then it is accredited... The "unaccredited" part has no reference so it seems it is artistic license wink.png

 

Yea I noticed that. They should correct it. I thought it was odd why it was named 'EvoWiki'? I couldn't find his name in Wiki at first, and when I searched his name the 'EvoWiki' was listed. I think they need to remove 'EvoWiki' and put it in the Wikipedia otherwise there might be some confusion. Especially when I have guru friends who can search in seconds. I don't know about everyone here, when I'm searching in Google it normally list a Wikipedia link which I like to read off unless they have their official site. I think this is a common search for some/most. I am only interested in the truth, otherwise if its not truthful then I can't use it in a normal conversation which is why I like to double/triple check. I remember reading up on Jason Lisle 'Epistemology' article 'How do we know', and found it very useful. Anyway, I hope this becomes breaking news World Wide to bring it into perspective that the Bible is true.

 

 

I'm not the one who initiated the discussion of Armitage's credentials or accreditation.  That issue was raised by one on your side.... Kairos.

 

Sorry piasan, I was only questioning why it said "unaccredited but recognized by U.S Department of Eduction".



#30 Kairos2014

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 12:19 AM

Hey guys, I actually found the creation wiki site here: http://creationwiki.org/Main_Page

 

Mark's page: http://creationwiki....ark_H._Armitage - I'm not sure if its updated? Last modified in (5 May 2012, at 14:11)

 

So it looks like they did build a wiki site for creation (woohoo). I find it odd that it doesn't rank above the evo wiki page, or no where to be seen on the first search page of Google. Anyone else experiencing differently?



#31 Calminian

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 09:19 AM

Here's the Fox News article on the subject.  Seems the story is gaining steam.  If the lawsuit goes well, this could bring awareness of this subject to the public.  

 

Scientist claims California university fired him over creationist beliefs

 

A California university says it is investigating religious discrimination allegations made by a prominent scientist and former employee who claims he was fired for his creationist beliefs.
 
Mark Armitage, a scientist and evangelical Christian, claims he was fired from his job as a lab technician at California State University at Northridge because he published an academic paper which appeared to support his creationist views, according to a lawsuit filed last week.
 
Armitage, who does not believe in evolution, was lauded by his colleagues and the science community after he discovered in 2012 the largest triceratops horn ever recovered from the world-famous Hell Creek Formation in Glendive, Mont.
 
Upon further examination of the fossils under a high-powered microscope, Armitage made a stunning find -- soft tissue inside the triceratops horn with bone cells, or osteocytes, that looked alive.
 
Scientists who study dinosaurs have long believed that triceratops existed some 68 million years ago and became extinct about 65 million years ago.
 
Armitage's finding, however, challenged that assertion. He argued the triceratops must be much younger or else those cells would have "decayed into nothingness," according to the July 22 lawsuit filed in Los Angeles Superior Court. 
 
Armitage, a long-time microscope scientist who has some 30 published papers to his name, believes the bones are no more than 4,000 years old -- a hypothesis that supports his view that such dinosaurs roamed the Earth relatively recently and that the planet is young.
 
On Feb. 12, 2013, a science journal published Armitage's triceratops soft tissue findings. Days later, Armitage was fired from his position.
 
According to Armitage's attorneys, the university claimed his 38-month employment had been "temporary" and that there was a lack of funding for his position. Armitage, however, claims he was called "permanent part-time" and allowed the full benefits package offered by the university. 
 
The lawsuit alleges that in the weeks leading up to his termination, Armitage's boss, Ernest Kwok, "stormed into" his lab and shouted, "'We are not going to tolerate your religion in this department!!"
 
The complaint also claims that Armitage's creationist view was known to members of the university's biology department prior to his employment.
 
When Armitage applied and interviewed for the position, he "informed the panel of CSUN personnel who interviewed him" that he "had published materials supportive of creationism," according to the complaint. 
 
"Because of plaintiff's exceptional qualifications, these publications did not disqualify him from the position," the lawsuit says. 
 
Lawyers with the Pacific Justice Institute, who represent Armitage, claim Kwok was not among those who hired his client and came on as his new supervisor when Armitage's old boss retired in June 2012. 
 
Neither Armitage nor Kwok were able to speak about the matter due to pending litigation. 
 
Jeff Noblitt, a university spokesman, told FoxNews.com that the school is in the process of investigating all allegations within the complaint.
 
Though Noblitt would not comment on the specifics of the case, he said the university, "strictly forbids discrimination on the basis of religion and we do not base employment-related decisions on an employee's religious beliefs."
 
"We have a long history of welcoming a diversity of perspectives and championing free thought and discovery within our academic environment," he said. 
 
Noblitt noted that Armitage served as an instructional support technician and was considered a "temporary employee." He declined to provide a reason for Armitage's termination. 
 
The discovery of soft tissue cells within dinosaur remains is controversial. When soft tissue was found in 2005 on the bones of a Tyrannosaurus rex -- believed to be 68 million years old -- researchers last November provided a physical explanation for it: iron within the dinosaur's body had preserved the tissue from decay.


#32 piasan

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 12:57 PM

And you answered him once which was sufficient. Why belabor the point since you already told us you were going to delay your assessment of this matter?

He asked another question which was worthy of another response.  I have taken the matter of accreditation to another thread. 

 

As for my assessment, where did I say anything about Dr. Armitage himself?  All I did was to produce reference material from creationist websites in response to questions from YEC.  It's certainly relevant as the basis of Armitage's complaint is that he was fired for his creationist beliefs.  That said, there is now additional information that has become available as this discussion has progressed.

 

Notice, I called him "Dr." Armitage.  There are those who have PhD's from non-accredited universities and use those "degrees" to gain (undeserved) credibility.  I decline to use the term "Doctor" to describe those individuals because I believe it disrespectful for the many who have completed the hard work to earn this particular title of academic respect and honor.  On the other hand, I've never hesitated to grant this respect to many creationists with legitimate PhD's including, but not limited to: Dr. Danny Faulkner; Dr. Russell Humphreys; Dr. Jason Lisle; Dr. Henry Morris; Dr. Larry Vardiman; Dr. Walt Brown; and (now) Dr. Armitage.  While there may be some issues with regard to Armitage's Master's degree, there is no question his PhD is from a fully accredited university and he is entitled to the respect he has earned.  I would prefer it be in a science, rather than education.... but it is a legitimate doctorate regardless.  Further, he has published in mainstream literature.  So, I will make myself absolutely clear on this point... as far as I'm concerned, Dr. Armitage is fully qualified.

 

Now, with regard to:

Here's the Fox News article on the subject.  Seems the story is gaining steam.  If the lawsuit goes well, this could bring awareness of this subject to the public.  

 

Scientist claims California university fired him over creationist beliefs

 

....Upon further examination of the fossils under a high-powered microscope, Armitage made a stunning find -- soft tissue inside the triceratops horn with bone cells, or osteocytes, that looked alive.
 
....On Feb. 12, 2013, a science journal published Armitage's triceratops soft tissue findings. Days later, Armitage was fired from his position.
 
.....When Armitage applied and interviewed for the position, he "informed the panel of CSUN personnel who interviewed him" that he "had published materials supportive of creationism," according to the complaint. 
 
....Kwok was not among those who hired his client and came on as his new supervisor when Armitage's old boss retired in June 2012. 
 
Neither Armitage nor Kwok were able to speak about the matter due to pending litigation. 
 
Jeff Noblitt, a university spokesman, told FoxNews.com that the school is in the process of investigating all allegations within the complaint.
 
Though Noblitt would not comment on the specifics of the case, he said the university, "strictly forbids discrimination on the basis of religion and we do not base employment-related decisions on an employee's religious beliefs."

As I have previously pointed out, I saw nothing controversial in the abstract of Armitage's paper.  The discovery of soft tissue in dinosaur bones is no longer big news.  It's much like the discovery of extra-solar planets..... at first it was big news, but as more and more examples are discovered, the newsworthiness declines.

 

I notice, from the news article that CSUN knew of Dr. Armitage's creationist beliefs when they hired him.  So, it is clear to me that any alleged discrimination that may have taken place was not the result of university policy.  The article conveys the impression that this termination was done by a new supervisor (Kwok) acting on his own volition.

 

Of course, at this point in time, CSUN will not comment beyond the statement of policy made by Noblitt due to the pending legal action.  That is pretty much standard practice and is to be expected whenever a lawsuit is filed.  So we're still not getting all the facts.

 

If the CSUN investigation finds that Armitage was improperly fired in violation of school policy, I anticipate that they will settle the case out of court without any admission of wrongdoing on the part of the university.  (Note: The university may also settle out of court if they believe it less expensive to simply pay him off rather than fight the case.... it happens all the time.)  It is also likely that an out of court settlement will be accompanied by a gag order preventing Armitage from discussing the case as part of the settlement.  That happens all the time too... but it means we probably will never know all the facts of the incident.

 

So, to summarize my position at this point, with the understanding that new evidence may cause a reassessment of the situation.....

Armitage was fully qualified for the job he was doing.  Based on his 38 months in the position, it seems he was performing his job adequately.  CSUN knew of his creationist beliefs before hiring him, so it is unlikely university discriminated against him.  A new supervisor may have fired him improperly for reasons that may have been in violation of school policy.  The issue of whether or not he was in a "permanent" position and entitled to some protection on that basis remains to be settled.



#33 Calminian

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 03:19 PM

As I have previously pointed out, I saw nothing controversial in the abstract of Armitage's paper.  The discovery of soft tissue in dinosaur bones is no longer big news.  It's much like the discovery of extra-solar planets..... at first it was big news, but as more and more examples are discovered, the newsworthiness declines.

 

I'm sorry, who decided soft tissue was no longer newsworthy?  So when it happened it was big news.  Then a bunch of evolutionists came forward claiming it was a fluke and not really dino tissue, etc.  Then as more discoveries overturned their assertion, it's just no longer big news?  

 

CSUN knew of his creationist beliefs before hiring him, so it is unlikely university discriminated against him…..

 

Because of course, nothing like this has ever happened before.  Evolutionists are very openminded about these things. kaffeetrinker.gif



#34 Sapiens

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 08:55 PM

Accreditation is rather straightforward: http://en.wikipedia....l_accreditation

 

 

A few other things need to be undertood here:

 

1)  He is not a "scientist" nor is he a "professor" he is a technician who on occasion has performed as a lecturer as an ancillary duty (often done with special skills like microscopy or, in my case, research diving).

 

2)  There is not really such a thing as a "permanent" position (in  the dictionary meaning of the word) with the exception of the top and bottom: tenured faculty and union contracted maintenance personnel, everyone else is there at the whim of funding.  Middle management and technicians are not real secure positions.

 

3)  Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence

 

4)  One (or two, or even a dozen) individual observations mean nothing.  The more extraordinary, the more supporting evidence needs to be brought forward.  He went off half cocked.

 

5)  Conversely, it only take a single falsifying observation to disprove something ... but this is not it.  First it must be demonstrated that this really is original soft tissue then other explanations need to be falsified, and even then all you've done is prove that soft tissue can stick around a long time.  I'd suggest that both DNA and radiometric conformation would be needed to prove it is original material and that it is "young."



#35 piasan

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 09:46 PM

As I have previously pointed out, I saw nothing controversial in the abstract of Armitage's paper.  The discovery of soft tissue in dinosaur bones is no longer big news.  It's much like the discovery of extra-solar planets..... at first it was big news, but as more and more examples are discovered, the newsworthiness declines.

 

I'm sorry, who decided soft tissue was no longer newsworthy?  So when it happened it was big news.  Then a bunch of evolutionists came forward claiming it was a fluke and not really dino tissue, etc.  Then as more discoveries overturned their assertion, it's just no longer big news?  

Notice I compared the newsworthiness of soft dino tissue with that of extrasolar planets. 

 

When the first extrasolar planets were discovered, it was huge news.  Each additional discovery got a little less attention.  Then the first extrasolar system of planets was confirmed.... that didn't make a lot of news either.  The first image of an extrasolar planet didn't get a lot of fanfare either.  Now there are hundreds of confirmed extrasolar planets with thousands of candidates.  They're confirmed in bunches and it's no longer big news.

 

When Schwizer's discovery was announced, the first thing I thought of was that there is a potential wealth of information about dinos sitting in our museums and we didn't even know it.  It was an absolutely huge finding.  After all, who had thought to crack open a dinosaur bone?  During my research on this topic, I ran across a comment that organic material had been found in over 200 of around 460 bones that had been tested.  I don't recall the exact numbers, but I think it was around 40% or so.  That's why such discoveries are no longer big news.

 

Now, let's get back on topic..... the firing of Armitage.

 

Why do I need to keep repeating this....

There was nothing controversial in the abstract of Armitage's paper.  If there is anything in that report that got him fired, it must be in the text of the paper itself.  I'm not about to pay $36 to look at it.

 

CSUN knew of his creationist beliefs before hiring him, so it is unlikely university discriminated against him. 

 

Because of course, nothing like this has ever happened before.  Evolutionists are very openminded about these things. kaffeetrinker.gif

Wow ! ! !  You lift this out of the summary and ignore the context of my comment.  Above that, I had pointed out that Armitage says, in his complaint, that CSUN knew of his creationist beliefs.  You pointed this out in your post #31 where you quote: "When Armitage applied and interviewed for the position, he "informed the panel of CSUN personnel who interviewed him" that he "had published materials supportive of creationism," according to the complaint."

 

What I also pointed out was that "it is clear to me that any alleged discrimination that may have taken place was not the result of university policy." 

 

Armitage is now in the position of saying: "They knew I was a creationist when they hired me and after 38 months they fired me because I'm a creationist."  Claiming that is somehow a matter of CSUN policy might be kind of hard to sell in court.

 

What I see in the evidence so far is that this was an act by Armitage's supervisor, not due to any policy of the university.  There's a lot more I need to know before forming a final opinion.  For example, I'd like to what's in the article and what's in his personnel file. 

 

My prediction is that it will be settled out of court with no admission of guilt by the university.... and a gag order.



#36 Sapiens

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 11:40 PM

"Mark H. Armitage earned a BS in Education from Liberty University and an MS in Biology (parasitology), under Richard Lumsden (Ph.D. Rice and Dean of Tulane University’s graduate program) at the Institute for Creation Research in San Diego, CA. He later graduated Ed.S. in Science Education from Liberty University and is a doctoral candidate there."

 

Liberty University is unaccredited, its degrees are not recognized by accredited institutions (so called "real" schools).  He would not be eligible to enter into any graduate program at an accredited school.  Thus, as far as "real" schools are concerned, he is a high school graduate (MAYBE).



#37 piasan

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 11:58 PM

Liberty University is unaccredited, its degrees are not recognized by accredited institutions (so called "real" schools).  He would not be eligible to enter into any graduate program at an accredited school.  Thus, as far as "real" schools are concerned, he is a high school graduate (MAYBE).

The accreditation of ICR may be questionable.  Liberty University has full academic accreditation

Source: .https://www.liberty....creditation.php



#38 Calminian

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 09:19 AM

The accreditation of ICR may be questionable.  Liberty University has full academic accreditation

Source: .https://www.liberty....creditation.php

 

Plus how does any of this matter?  A janitor could have discovered the soft tissue.  If it's dino tissue, who cares?  This is just stubborn denial based on religious beliefs.  



#39 piasan

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 09:48 AM

The accreditation of ICR may be questionable.  Liberty University has full academic accreditation

Source: .https://www.liberty....creditation.php

 

Plus how does any of this matter?  A janitor could have discovered the soft tissue.  If it's dino tissue, who cares?  This is just stubborn denial based on religious beliefs.  

Just for the record.... I'm on your side on this one.



#40 Calminian

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  • Gender:Male
  • Age: 45
  • Christian
  • Young Earth Creationist
  • CA

Posted 01 August 2014 - 10:27 AM

Just for the record.... I'm on your side on this one.

 

Well stranger things have happened. unsure.png  Just seems Sapiens is so disturbed about the actual facts, he's trying to divert the topic.  






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