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What Is The Jews' Future?


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#1 rosewhite

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 04:23 AM

Hi, I'm a little vague about where Jews fit in to the coming Rule of Christ so can anyone tell me if all the Jews now living who refuse to accept the reality and truth of Jesus's First Coming will be saved during Armageddon?

I exchange words with one Jew who says his race believe Jesus was just a cult leader like all the other cult leaders we have seen especially in modern times and that His miracles were demon work.

The blasphemies they resort has to be read to be believed!

They are all still waiting for a mighty warrior Messiah who will lead them into battle to defeat all the rest of the world so they can rule as idle masters treating the rest of us as slaves!

 

So as God said Jews would be as numerous as grains of sand or something - where do modern Jews fit in?  Which Jews will rule the new world after Christ comes again?



#2 Fred Williams

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 04:12 PM

Hi, I'm a little vague about where Jews fit in to the coming Rule of Christ so can anyone tell me if all the Jews now living who refuse to accept the reality and truth of Jesus's First Coming will be saved during Armageddon?

I exchange words with one Jew who says his race believe Jesus was just a cult leader like all the other cult leaders we have seen especially in modern times and that His miracles were demon work.

The blasphemies they resort has to be read to be believed!

They are all still waiting for a mighty warrior Messiah who will lead them into battle to defeat all the rest of the world so they can rule as idle masters treating the rest of us as slaves!

 

So as God said Jews would be as numerous as grains of sand or something - where do modern Jews fit in?  Which Jews will rule the new world after Christ comes again?

 

Hi Rose... That's a good question! There are various views on this, I think the two most prominent are replacement theology and dispensationalism. Replacement theology essentially teaches that Israel is no longer in God's plans and that the church (all Christians) is now a spiritual "Israel". So in this view the Jews don't fit in anywhere, they are no different than any other nation. The church I go to (Lutheran LCMS) holds this view but I very much disagree with it. I'm convinced this theology originated with Luther's well-known antisemitism. The other prominent view is dispensationalism that I believe is the more tenable scriptural position, that Israel as a nation was cut-off because of their rejection of the Messiah, but they will be grafted back in in the future (see Romans 9 to 11, especially 11). So Israel is still very much in God's plans. 

 

Regarding the phrase "numerous as grains of sand" this refers to Gen 22:17 (also Heb 11:12) and it pertains to all people, not just Israel. Note Gen 22:18: "In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.” Abraham was the father of both Israel (circumcision) and the Gentiles (the uncircumcision), see Romans 4:11-12. 

 

When Jesus returns its expected that many Jews will then recognize and accept him as Lord and Savior. I'm not sure though what scripture says regarding their role in the new world. One thing we know is the apostles will judge over the 12 tribes of Israel. Hopefully TeeJay and Bonedigger can expound more on this question. Other views are of course welcome too!

 

Fred



#3 rosewhite

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 03:39 AM

Thanks Fred,

 

I have looked at videos of rabbis addressing younger Jews in religious schools about how the Messiah will battle all Jewish enemies and put Jews as rulers of the world and it is like watching old film of Hitler rabble rousing with his lies and personal issues.

 

Rose



#4 Teejay

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 06:06 AM

Hi, I'm a little vague about where Jews fit in to the coming Rule of Christ so can anyone tell me if all the Jews now living who refuse to accept the reality and truth of Jesus's First Coming will be saved during Armageddon?

I exchange words with one Jew who says his race believe Jesus was just a cult leader like all the other cult leaders we have seen especially in modern times and that His miracles were demon work.

The blasphemies they resort has to be read to be believed!

They are all still waiting for a mighty warrior Messiah who will lead them into battle to defeat all the rest of the world so they can rule as idle masters treating the rest of us as slaves!

 

So as God said Jews would be as numerous as grains of sand or something - where do modern Jews fit in?  Which Jews will rule the new world after Christ comes again?

 

Hello Rose,

I've studied Scripture until I was cross-eyed.  And the only thing that made sense and cleared up all the conundrums was when I discovered Dispensationalism.  This is the doctrone that Jesus Christ came to Israel (as promised in the OT).  "For three years I've come seeking fruit on this fig tree and have found none," Jesus lamented.  In this parable, Israel is the fig tree, the gardener that talks Jesus into giving Israel one more year is the Holy Spirit.  So, a careful reading of Acts 1-9 shows the apostles trying their best to get Israel to accept their risen Messiah:  Peter:  "Repent and accept Jesus so that the Father will send Jesus back and we will get our kingdom [paraphrased]."  But alas, the answer that Jesus got was the stoning of Stephen.  Patience exhausted, God cut off Israel.

But then God did something unexpected and beautiful.  He took Paul and bypassed Israel and went directly to the Gentiles.  And instead of giving Paul the old gospel of circumcision (or law), He gave Paul the gospel of uncircumcision which is faith plus nothing (Gal. 2:7-9).  You can Google the phrase "dispensation of grace" and you will see that Paul says over and over again that the dispensation of grace" was given to him for us.  Presently, all humans are under this dispensation, and this includes Jews.  They no longer have to circumcise and keep the law.  They are saved by grace just as we are (See Rom. 10:9-10).  In the Body of Christ, there is no Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female.We

Paul clearly teaches that God is not finished with Israel.  He will graft them in again because of His love for Abraham, Moses, Jacob, et. al.  He is coming back to Israel, and He will give them their promised kingdom with Jesus sitting on King David's throne in Jerusalem and ruling the world.  We in the Body, who do not get circumcised and are not under the law, do not fit in with this plan.  So, the Rapture is for us where we will be taken out of this earth before Jesus comes to Israel.  Realize that the book of Revelation is written to Israel and for Israel.  Israel will go through a Tribulation or the time of Jacob's trouble.  This is to refine Israel and get rid of all the unbelievers.

 

Rose, I suggest you read the Two Gospel thread on this site.  Fred and I lay out Dispensational arguments with Bible references.  I also made a challenge that no one has tested.  I challenged anyone that if they gave me a doctrinal dispute that presently fractures the Body of Christ, I will show how the dispute itself is caused by failing to accept Dispensationalism and an acceptance of Dispensationalism will solve it.

 

If after you read our arguments on the Two Gospel thread you still have questions, please feel free to ask Fred or me.

 

TeeJay 



#5 rosewhite

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 08:44 AM

Thanks Teejay,

 

I tell the Jews I correspond with that they were wrong to persecute Jesus as 'just a cult leader who deserved to die' and that Jesus came to end the old laws but they totally refute all this and claim they will rule the world as idle masters of masses of non-Jewish slaves and restart animal sacrifice burnt offerings in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem almost as though the last 2000 years have never happened..



#6 Teejay

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 10:24 AM

Thanks Teejay,

 

I tell the Jews I correspond with that they were wrong to persecute Jesus as 'just a cult leader who deserved to die' and that Jesus came to end the old laws but they totally refute all this and claim they will rule the world as idle masters of masses of non-Jewish slaves and restart animal sacrifice burnt offerings in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem almost as though the last 2000 years have never happened..

Rose,

May I make a suggestion.  Rather than being confrontational, I suggest you go on line to sites that give good arguments that a Jew will be forced to ponder.  Jews for Jesus sites might be the way to go.  Study to show yourself approved, and then respectfully ask questions that will give them pause.  Example:  How does a Jew explain the prophesies Jesus fulfilled?  How does a Jew explain the "suffering Servant" passages in Isaiah?  And so on.  

To accept truth, one must soften his heart and admit that he was wrong in believing the falsehoods he once accepted.  No one likes to admit he is wrong.  And this is what God deals with in His relationship with us humans.  And this is why miracles do not get people to accept God.  A miracle shoves the truth of God in his face and proves him wrong.  Have you ever had anyone love you for proving them wrong?

So, if you have Jewish friends, you have an obligation to study to show yourself approved and then be able to give an answer for the hope that is within you.  If that sounds Biblical, it's because it is in the Bible.

 

TeeJay



#7 Teejay

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 10:24 AM

Thanks Teejay,

 

I tell the Jews I correspond with that they were wrong to persecute Jesus as 'just a cult leader who deserved to die' and that Jesus came to end the old laws but they totally refute all this and claim they will rule the world as idle masters of masses of non-Jewish slaves and restart animal sacrifice burnt offerings in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem almost as though the last 2000 years have never happened..

Rose,

May I make a suggestion.  Rather than being confrontational, I suggest you go on line to sites that give good arguments that a Jew will be forced to ponder.  Jews for Jesus sites might be the way to go.  Study to show yourself approved, and then respectfully ask questions that will give them pause.  Example:  How does a Jew explain the prophesies Jesus fulfilled?  How does a Jew explain the "suffering Servant" passages in Isaiah?  And so on.  

To accept truth, one must soften his heart and admit that he was wrong in believing he once accepted.  No one likes to admit he is wrong.  And this is what God deals with in His relationship with us humans.  And this is why miracles do not get people to accept God.  A miracle shoves the truth in his face and proves him wrong.  Have you ever had anyone love you for proving them wrong?

So, if you have Jewish friends, you have an obligation to study to show yourself approved and then be able to give an answer for the hope that is within you.  If that sounds Biblical, it's because it is in the Bible.

 

TeeJay



#8 Hawkins

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Posted 13 November 2014 - 11:39 AM

Jews will be the Jews by God's definition rather than human blood line. 

 

 

Revelation 2:9 (NIV)
I know your afflictions and your poverty--yet you are rich! I know the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

 

Revelation 3:9 (NIV)
I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars--I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.

 

 

The New Covenant will save a large number of humans than Judaism (which is never a salvation solution for the Gentiles) can. I think that only the Jews who strictly abide by God's commandments and Mosaic Law, and will not fight Christianity may still be a Jew in God's eye. Once they are qualified as by God's definition, they will face Moses' accusation on the Judgment Day.

 

 

John 5:45 (NIV)
"But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set.



#9 Teejay

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Posted 12 December 2014 - 02:42 PM

Jews will be the Jews by God's definition rather than human blood line. 

 

 

Revelation 2:9 (NIV)
I know your afflictions and your poverty--yet you are rich! I know the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

 

Revelation 3:9 (NIV)
I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars--I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.

 

 

The New Covenant will save a large number of humans than Judaism (which is never a salvation solution for the Gentiles) can. I think that only the Jews who strictly abide by God's commandments and Mosaic Law, and will not fight Christianity may still be a Jew in God's eye. Once they are qualified as by God's definition, they will face Moses' accusation on the Judgment Day.

 

 

John 5:45 (NIV)
"But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set.

Many of your quotes from Revelation are proof positive that Jesus is talking to Israel and not to Gentiles.  When Jesus comes the second time, He is coming to Israel.  We, the Body of Christ, will not be here.  We will have been Raptured out, for Paul wrote that we "are saved from the wrath that is to come [Tribulation or the time of Jacob's trouble]."  God will separate the sheep from the goats, judge nations, purge Israel, and set up Israel's promised kingdom with Jesus sitting on King David' throne in Jerusalem.

 

All humans on Planet Earth will have to approach God through Israel--get circumcised and keep the law of Moses.

 

TeeJay



#10 Schera Do

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 02:21 PM

.... can anyone tell me if all the Jews now living who refuse to accept the reality and truth of Jesus's First Coming will be saved during Armageddon? ...

.
I'm attempting to determine whether this question was answered in the reponses...
 

... Which Jews will rule the new world after Christ comes again?

.
Curious presumption? Certainty that some "Jews" will "rule the new world"? I thought the world was to be destroyed. Did I miss something?

The "end" is not permanent? Someone help me: I need to know how to set my calendar....

#11 MarkForbes

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 04:32 AM

 

....
Paul clearly teaches that God is not finished with Israel.  He will graft them in again because of His love for Abraham, Moses, Jacob, et. al.  He is coming back to Israel, and He will give them their promised kingdom with Jesus sitting on King David's throne in Jerusalem and ruling the world.  We in the Body, who do not get circumcised and are not under the law, do not fit in with this plan.  So, the Rapture is for us where we will be taken out of this earth before Jesus comes to Israel.  Realize that the book of Revelation is written to Israel and for Israel.  Israel will go through a Tribulation or the time of Jacob's trouble.  This is to refine Israel and get rid of all the unbelievers.

...

I thought the book of revelation is written for ALL believers?

 

 

Many of your quotes from Revelation are proof positive that Jesus is talking to Israel and not to Gentiles.  When Jesus comes the second time, He is coming to Israel.  We, the Body of Christ, will not be here.  We will have been Raptured out, for Paul wrote that we "are saved from the wrath that is to come [Tribulation or the time of Jacob's trouble]."  God will separate the sheep from the goats, judge nations, purge Israel, and set up Israel's promised kingdom with Jesus sitting on King David' throne in Jerusalem.

 

God's wrath =/= tribulation.



#12 Teejay

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 06:42 AM

I thought the book of revelation is written for ALL believers?

 

 
 

God's wrath =/= tribulation.

Hello Mark,

 

Paul wrote all his letters to Gentiles and Jews (who were saved through Paul's gospel of uncircumcision (Gal. 2:7-9) after God cut off Israel.  When God cut off Israel and bypassed Israel and went directly to the Gentiles with Paul (the apostle to the Gentiles), there was no longer any distinction between Jew or Gentile, male or female, slave or free.  Prior to Paul, if a Gentile wanted to approach Israel's God, he had to get circumcised and keep the law of Moses and do good works.  When a female was born to a Jewish father or married a Jewish man, she was automatically under the Abrahamic Covenant of Circumcision or law.  If a slave was bonded to a Jewish man, he was under this covenant as well.  When a Jewish male got circumcised on the eighth day of his life, he was automatically under this covenant.  Jesus came, was circumcised, and voluntarily put Himself under His own law--and kept it perfectly.  But what Paul is saying is that we do not have to go through Israel's Abrahamic Covenant; we "come boldly to the throne of God" as individuals of His Body.  Where God dealt with Israel as a nation (corporate relationship), our citizenship as a member of His Body is international.

 

All the circumcision apostles (John, James, Matthew, Mark, Luke, James are written to the nation of Israel.  (And of course Jesus "came only to the House of Israel."  Circumcision, Sabbath law, certain feasts are perpetual, everlasting, as long as there is an Israel.  Contrast this with Paul who tells us we don't have to do any of these things:  "If you get circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing."

 

Many Christians mistakenly think that after the Cross, Israel was no longer under Sabbath law or circumcision.  But this is untenable considering that these laws were perpetual for Israel and carried a death penalty for disobedience to any one of them.  Jesus warned, talking of the Tribulation to come, "Let your flight be not on the Sabbath..." after the Cross.  And while Paul taught that we could eat meat sacrificed to idols, Jesus warned Jews in the seven churches of Asia (Rev. 1:4) that hey had better not eat meat sacrificed to idols (Rev. 2:14).  And God makes it clear that He is talking to Israel in verses such ass Rev. 3:9.

 

Revelation can't be written to members of the Body of Christ.  Why?  Because we will be in heaven.  Our citizenship is in heaven.  Israel's is on earth.

 

Yes, "the wrath that is to come" is the Tribulation or the time of Jacob's trouble.  Recall that when the Pharisees came to John the Baptist while he was baptizing Jews and proclaiming the coming of the Messiah he said to the Pharisees:  "Brood of vipers!  Who warned you to flee from the wrath that is to come?  A careful study of the Daniel weeks prophesy will show that Jesus was to come to Israel at a certain date.  Then He would be cut off for His people (Israel) and go to the Father for approximately 7 years.  During those 7 years, Israel would go through their Tribulation and Jesus would come back and set up His kingdom for Israel with Jesus sitting on King David's throne in Jerusalem.  But, and this is a big but, all was contingent on Israel accept their risen Messiah.  A careful reading of the first half of Acts shows that Israel was starting into their Tribulation (for which Jesus prepared them) and the Twelve were trying with every fiber of their body to convince Israel to accept their risen Messiah "so that the Father would send Jesus back" (Acts 3:20).  But, alas, Israel rejected their risen Messiah and God, patience exhausted, cut Israel off.

 

If there are any thing I said that you want me to back up with Scripture, let me know.

 

TeeJay 



#13 Genesis6:4

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Posted 12 July 2015 - 12:35 AM

The book of Revelation is pretty on point what will happen to the true descendants of Jacob's seed, they become the 144,000 during the end times. 






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