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Millions Of Green River Annual Varves


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#1 Bill Ludlow

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Posted 22 July 2015 - 11:19 PM

Knightia_zpsbqe1xuco.jpg

 

Here is a Green River Knightia eoceana fossil from my collection that comes from the early Eocene period around 50 million years ago. It's closest living relative is the Alewife, a small fish I'm very familiar with because they invaded the Great Lakes region beginning in the 1950's and used to wash up by the thousands on the beaches of Lake Huron and Lake Michigan in massive die-offs after their population exploded due to lack of predators.

 

The thing I find most interesting about the Green River Formation located in western Colorado, eastern Utah, and southwestern Wyoming besides the incredible array of high quality fossils found there is that the fossils are often found in very distinct annual layers called varves. Darker colored sediments were laid down during the summer season as vegetation bloomed and lighter colored sediment was laid down during the winter. There are literally millions of varves (layers) in some areas. Geologists see this happening in lakes today so it makes great observable evidence that demonstrates it took millions of years for these extremely fossiliferous layers to form.

 

Soft fine grained sediment deposited in millions of thin annual layers makes the rock easy to separate so we can see the fine detailed evidence locked inside. A fossil hunter's dream. Evidence that no worldwide flood was needed for the formation of millions of fossils. Evidence the Earth cannot be only 6,000 years old.  Evidence a literal interpretation of Genesis is wrong. 

 



#2 gilbo12345

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Posted 23 July 2015 - 12:43 AM

 

Knightia_zpsbqe1xuco.jpg

 

Here is a Green River Knightia eoceana fossil from my collection that comes from the early Eocene period around 50 million years ago. It's closest living relative is the Alewife, a small fish I'm very familiar with because they invaded the Great Lakes region beginning in the 1950's and used to wash up by the thousands on the beaches of Lake Huron and Lake Michigan in massive die-offs after their population exploded due to lack of predators.

 

The thing I find most interesting about the Green River Formation located in western Colorado, eastern Utah, and southwestern Wyoming besides the incredible array of high quality fossils found there is that the fossils are often found in very distinct annual layers called varves. Darker colored sediments were laid down during the summer season as vegetation bloomed and lighter colored sediment was laid down during the winter. There are literally millions of varves (layers) in some areas. Geologists see this happening in lakes today so it makes great observable evidence that demonstrates it took millions of years for these extremely fossiliferous layers to form.

 

Soft fine grained sediment deposited in millions of thin annual layers makes the rock easy to separate so we can see the fine detailed evidence locked inside. A fossil hunter's dream. Evidence that no worldwide flood was needed for the formation of millions of fossils. Evidence the Earth cannot be only 6,000 years old.  Evidence a literal interpretation of Genesis is wrong. 

 

 

So let me get this straight...

 

You have millions of layers forming in a year

And because of this you think this is evidence against a 6000 -10,000 year Earth

And that is it? Or did I miss something?



#3 Bill Ludlow

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Posted 23 July 2015 - 01:28 AM

So let me get this straight...

 

You have millions of layers forming in a year

And because of this you think this is evidence against a 6000 -10,000 year Earth

And that is it? Or did I miss something?

 

 

 

You took millions of annual layers to mean millions of layers forming in one year?  Really?  Please refrain from further comments on my topics until you can understand English.  



#4 gilbo12345

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Posted 23 July 2015 - 02:20 AM

You took millions of annual layers to mean millions of layers forming in one year?  Really?  Please refrain from further comments on my topics until you can understand English.  

 

So people cannot ask questions about things they are unsure about? I am a Biologist not a Geologist, hence I asked the following...

 

And that is it? Or did I miss something?

 

Rather than be like yourself and make grandiose claims only to find them debunked as per these threads...

http://evolutionfair...-tisdalls-work/

 

http://evolutionfair...ssil-look-like/

 

Self-reflection is a good ability, I suggest you attempt to learn it one day.



#5 Calypsis4

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Posted 23 July 2015 - 06:26 AM



 

Knightia_zpsbqe1xuco.jpg

 

Here is a Green River Knightia eoceana fossil from my collection that comes from the early Eocene period around 50 million years ago. It's closest living relative is the Alewife, a small fish I'm very familiar with because they invaded the Great Lakes region beginning in the 1950's and used to wash up by the thousands on the beaches of Lake Huron and Lake Michigan in massive die-offs after their population exploded due to lack of predators.

 

The thing I find most interesting about the Green River Formation located in western Colorado, eastern Utah, and southwestern Wyoming besides the incredible array of high quality fossils found there is that the fossils are often found in very distinct annual layers called varves. Darker colored sediments were laid down during the summer season as vegetation bloomed and lighter colored sediment was laid down during the winter. There are literally millions of varves (layers) in some areasGeologists see this happening in lakes today so it makes great observable evidence that demonstrates it took millions of years for these extremely fossiliferous layers to form.

 


Soft fine grained sediment deposited in millions of thin annual layers makes the rock easy to separate so we can see the fine detailed evidence locked inside. A fossil hunter's dream. Evidence that no worldwide flood was needed for the formation of millions of fossils. Evidence the Earth cannot be only 6,000 years old.  Evidence a literal interpretation of Genesis is wrong. 

 

 

Your last few statements are completely faulty, confused thinking. "Geologists see this happening in lakes today...." after telling us, "There are literally millions of varves(layers). But modern evolution theory tells us that varves are laid down once per year. Would you please give us the names of the geologists that have lived for millions of years so they could make such an observation over such a length of tme?

 

Quote: "Each varve is laid down in a year and is composed of two distinct types of sediments." (Online Biology). 

 

Yet...

 

St_Helens_strata.jpg

 

Varves by the dozens laid down by the eruption of Mount St. Helen in Washington State in 1980. Below is a close-up of the same canyon...dug out by natural forces in one day.

 

 z-helens.jpg

 

It didn't take millions of years, it took a catastrophe to develop this formation. The point: the Noahic flood is almost certainly the cause of many of the thousands of varves found around the world. 


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#6 Bill Ludlow

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Posted 23 July 2015 - 02:30 PM

 Would you please give us the names of the geologists that have lived for millions of years so they could make such an observation over such a length of tme?

 

 

Ah, the old "were you there" argument.  We don't have to live for millions of years to understand the past.  

 

 

There were no varves laid down by volcanic ash during or after the Mount St. Helens eruption.  Floods don't cause annual varves.  You are confusing other types of sedimentary layers with annual varves.  

 

The Toutle River Canyon has nothing to do with this discussion at all, but since I've been there and seen it and I've been to the Grand Canyon and studied it many times I would be glad to explain why they are nothing at all alike if you wish to start a new topic.



#7 usafjay1976

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Posted 23 July 2015 - 03:42 PM

Your hypothesis is that the formations are millions of years old. What experiment has been used to support this hypothesis? I asked the same thing in my "what does a transitional fossil look like" thread. No answers yet.

#8 Bill Ludlow

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Posted 23 July 2015 - 04:06 PM

Your hypothesis is that the formations are millions of years old. What experiment has been used to support this hypothesis? I asked the same thing in my "what does a transitional fossil look like" thread. No answers yet.

 

Here are 139 pages listing scientific studies and experiments that have been done on annual varves in alphabetical order.  

http://www.pages-igb...ublications.pdf

 

 

It also should be noted the varves in the various sections of the Green River Formation were accumulated at the bottom of deep water lakes with obvious shorelines.  Not at all what one would expect to find in the middle of a worldwide flood. 



#9 Calypsis4

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Posted 23 July 2015 - 04:07 PM

Ludlow:

 

Ah, the old "were you there" argument.  We don't have to live for millions of years to understand the past.  

 

 

 

If you don't have empirical evidence then you've got nothing but specualtion.

 

There were no varves laid down by volcanic ash during or after the Mount St. Helens eruption.  Floods don't cause annual varves.  You are confusing other types of sedimentary layers with annual varves.

 

 

 

But varves they were. Quote: "Steve Austin, who has done much field work at Mount St. Helens, documented in his new book Grand Canyon: Monument to Catastrophe that the volcano eruption produced 25 feet of volcanic ash varve-like deposits from hurricane-velocity surging flows in five hours.

Conclusions We do not intend to deny the capability of seasonal variations to produce annual layers. The intent is to show that many varve-like deposits do not represent annual processes."

http://www.creationi...vesProblems.htm

 

Not only did the eruption in 1980 produce the varves depicted in the photos but it produced two small canyons. So much for the long age theory of canyons. 



#10 Calypsis4

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Posted 23 July 2015 - 04:10 PM

Ludlow:

 

Here are 139 pages listing scientific studies and experiments that have been done on annual varves in alphabetical order.  

 

 

http://www.pages-igbp.org/download/docs/working_groups/vwg/Varve%20publications.pdf

 

So what? We don't deny they exist nor even that they can be laid down in an annual fashion. What we deny is that they are ALWAYS annual.

 

It also should be noted the varves in the various sections of the Green River Formation were accumulated at the bottom of deep water lakes with obvious shorelines.  Not at all what one would expect to find in the middle of a worldwide flood. 

 

 

 

Says you. Where was your observer who lived over countless thousands or millions of years to verify your claim? Name him.



#11 Bill Ludlow

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Posted 23 July 2015 - 04:59 PM

Geologists have known for years that volcanic activity can cause layers quickly.  Austin showed us nothing new.  There are no similarities between the Green River Formation annual varves and the volcanic layers from Mount St. Helens besides the fact they are both different types of layers.  You are comparing apples to oranges.  Same with the little Toutle River Canyon.  

 

Says you. Where was your observer who lived over countless thousands or millions of years to verify your claim? Name him.

 

Comments like this will be ignored.  
 



#12 Calypsis4

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Posted 23 July 2015 - 06:06 PM

Ludlow:

 

Geologists have known for years that volcanic activity can cause layers quickly.  Austin showed us nothing new.  There are no similarities between the Green River Formation annual varves and the volcanic layers from Mount St. Helens besides the fact they are both different types of layers.  You are comparing apples to oranges.  Same with the little Toutle River Canyon.  

 

 

But you don't know that without an observer. Now where is your observer that can verify that all those varves in the Green River Formation were annual. Name him.

 

varve_leaf1.jpg

 

Explain how that elm leaf kept from crumbling into dust even though it is clear it survived seven varves that formed around it? Do you know of any leaf that will last through all kinds of weather of the four seasons so many times and still be in one piece? Or is it actually a fact that those varves settled quickly...perhaps instantaneously around the leaf? 

 

Comments like this will be ignored.  

 

 

 

Don't dodge the issue, sir. Just please answer the question.



#13 Bill Ludlow

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Posted 23 July 2015 - 06:30 PM

Your leaf was not found in annual varves.


https://traouhagall....leaf-in-varves/

 

But you don't know that without an observer. Now where is your observer that can verify that all those varves in the Green River Formation were annual. Name him.

 

 

 

Do you really want to go there?  Do you really want to suggest direct observation of events is needed in order to know something happened?  Science and Bible believers don't require that , so why do you?  



#14 Calypsis4

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Posted 23 July 2015 - 07:13 PM

Ludlow:'

 

 

Your leaf was not found in annual varves.

 

 

But your following source did not prove that. They just gave an opinion about the leaf and that the varves were not annual. They didn't say at what rate those layers were deposited. How convenient.

https://traouhagall.wordpress.com/2013/04/18/that-photo-of-a-leaf-in-varves/

 

But they did make this incredibly stupid statement: "An embedded

leaf (arrowed!) interrupts the periodic layering of the limestone
precipitation."

 

 

That one small leaf stopped the varves from forming? Are you kidding me? The fact is that I NOWHERE stated that those varves were annual. I merely stated that at least seven varves formed around the leaf which was slightly bent over during the process.

 

YOU STILL HAVE NOT ANSWERED HOW THE LEAF maintained its almost complete form as a leaf despite the exposure to the elements for whatever time until it was discovered. Why?

 

Do you really want to go there?  Do you really want to suggest direct observation of events is needed in order to know something happened?  Science and Bible believers don't require that , so why do you?

 

 

 

Don't trivialize our position. We know from historical and biblical accounts at least some of what happened in earths past but without observers in the so-called 'pre-historic' past we have no sure way to date or even determine for certain just what happened. 

 

To show you a bit of the extent of your problem, since you are so close to the New Mexico state line then why don't you take a little hike to the site of the Zapata footprints where you can observe a (1) clearly human footprint and (2) bird tracks in PERMIAN rock approx. 280 to 350 million yrs ago. Now would you please explain to the readers just how this human foot track was firmly implanted in that strata since the rock supposedly predates man by over 300 mllion years and birds by about 250 million yrs? This was such a difficulty for evoutionists to handle that even the Smithsonian called it 'problematica'. I'll give you the source to that if you request it. But don't think that this is an isolated example. I have a host of them in my files ready to post.

 

zapata2_zpsu4uhg8p7.jpg

 

Here's another from the Paluxy River Bed;

 

humanfootprint04_zpshnfs34qu.jpg

 

So the real question is: are the footprints fakes or is your theory wrong about the timing? We say it's the latter for there are too many tracks that are Oops (out-of-place-artifacts) for neo-Darwinians to account for.

 

As far as we are concerned your theory is an utter fairytale. 



#15 Bill Ludlow

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Posted 23 July 2015 - 07:41 PM

You guys are all over the place.  Start a new topic on fake Paluxy footprints if you want to discuss that. 



#16 Calypsis4

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Posted 24 July 2015 - 05:44 AM

You guys are all over the place.  Start a new topic on fake Paluxy footprints if you want to discuss that. 

 

Don't give me that 'fake Paluxy footprints' business. Like virtually all evolutionists you brush aside every bit of evidence that goes against your ridiculous theory no matter how strong that evidence is.

 

Secondly, you DID NOT answer my points in post #14. Are you going to reply about the Zapata footprint? Are you going to give EVIDENCE that the Paluxy tracks are fraudulent?  Are you going to answer my question: "YOU STILL HAVE NOT ANSWERED HOW THE LEAF maintained its almost complete form as a leaf despite the exposure to the elements for whatever time until it was discovered. Why?" How could an elm leaf that was embedded in solid rock be encased by at least seven varves but yet maintain almost all of its original form?

 

So stop playing mental dodge ball and give us some answers, please.



#17 gilbo12345

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Posted 24 July 2015 - 06:14 AM

Are you going to answer my question: "YOU STILL HAVE NOT ANSWERED HOW THE LEAF maintained its almost complete form as a leaf despite the exposure to the elements for whatever time until it was discovered. Why?" How could an elm leaf that was embedded in solid rock be encased by at least seven varves but yet maintain almost all of its original form?

 

Sounds similar to discovery of polystrate trees

Picture11.jpg

Lycopsid_joggins_mcr1.JPG
 

polystrate12.jpg


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#18 Bill Ludlow

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Posted 24 July 2015 - 02:58 PM

Don't give me that 'fake Paluxy footprints' business. Like virtually all evolutionists you brush aside every bit of evidence that goes against your ridiculous theory no matter how strong that evidence is.

 

Secondly, you DID NOT answer my points in post #14. Are you going to reply about the Zapata footprint? Are you going to give EVIDENCE that the Paluxy tracks are fraudulent?  Are you going to answer my question: "YOU STILL HAVE NOT ANSWERED HOW THE LEAF maintained its almost complete form as a leaf despite the exposure to the elements for whatever time until it was discovered. Why?" How could an elm leaf that was embedded in solid rock be encased by at least seven varves but yet maintain almost all of its original form?

 

So stop playing mental dodge ball and give us some answers, please.

I gave a sufficient response to your assumption about the leaf.  If you have more sources that say something new, please present them.   



#19 Bill Ludlow

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Posted 24 July 2015 - 02:59 PM

Sounds similar to discovery of polystrate trees

Picture11.jpg

Lycopsid_joggins_mcr1.JPG
 

polystrate12.jpg


Is there a topic on polystrate trees?  If not, you should start one. 



#20 Calypsis4

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Posted 24 July 2015 - 04:51 PM

Is there a topic on polystrate trees?  If not, you should start one. 

 

Why should he if you're going to keep dodging the questions we lay before you on those things that are truly 'on topic' just like you did on post # 18. Also, you never did reply to my documentation that evolutionists have frequently admitted the problem of dating rocks by the fossils and fossils are dated by the rocks. Why? I still have eighteen more statements by those on your side of the fence who were honest enough to admit the truth. So why didn't you reply to what I posted there?






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